Is eternal suffering pointless?

[arte]

God never needs human sacrifice. Jesus chose to suffer and die for us to liberate us from the power of evil. He quoted Hosea:

Why did Jesus have to die to liberate us from the power of evil? Didn’t Jesus die for our sins? Didn’t Jesus die to open the gates of heaven that God had closed because of Adam and Eve’s sin? There is contradiction in the bible over sacrifices. Deuteronomy 12:31 and 18:10 is against burning humans as sacrifice but Hebrews 9:21: “Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” and Hebrews 10: 8-10 “First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”. If that is not human sacrifice, what is? And, God’s will for Jesus was that He sacrificed Himself. Jesus chose to do it but it was God’s will that He do it.

It is certainly not the Church’s teaching that the Jews were responsible.

I find that very strange because throughout my Catholic schooling including being taught by De la Salle Catholic Brothers for 5 years; we were taught that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus. The Antisemitism was very strong in the teaching. The Roman Catholic Church actively promoted Antisemitism since its inception right up until late in the 20th century. What our Church did over those approx 1,700 years to Jews is absolutely disgraceful. The Church is now a strong supporter of religious tolerance towards Jews. Please see: religioustolerance.org/vat_hol11.htm religioustolerance.org/vat_hol13.htm

The real question is whether you accept His teaching…

The real answer as you know well is that I do not accept Adam and Eve, original sin and hell regardless of who teaches it. I am a Christian Universalist on hell. I believe that Jesus’ words on hell and eternal torture are mistranslations of ancient scriptures. Jesus is my moral compass and I constantly check whatever I do in life against that compass.

Then how do you explain the blood-stained history of mankind and the lust for power at all costs?

I believe I have mentioned this to you before but I‘ll repeat it. You are the one stating that Adam and Eve existed and with that original sin. You are stating the positive and not me. Therefore the onus is on you to prove it. Just stating: “Then how do you explain the blood-stained history of mankind and the lust for power at all costs?” is not evidence. Please provide historical and biological evidence to prove that they existed and we all descended from them.

The fact that we are not God’s slaves and can choose to pay the price of independence for as long as we choose…

So if someone dies and says: “I choose not to be independent anymore”; they do not go to hell and can go to heaven?

The writers of the Old Testament were not infallible.

You questioned me as in: “Was the account of the Creation in Genesis inspired by God? “Was Moses inspired by God?” “Were the prophets inspired by God? “Was Jesus mistaken in His references to the Old Testament?”
I quoted from the Old Testament to prove that Moses and God wanted women and children killed and virgins raped, so you now say: “The writers of the Old Testament were not infallible”.

 

[tonyrey]

God never needs human sacrifice. Jesus chose to suffer and die for us to liberate us from the power of evil. He quoted Hosea:

Why did Jesus have to die to liberate us from the power of evil? Didn’t Jesus die for our sins?
Jesus died for the sins** we** commit.

Didn’t Jesus die to open the gates of heaven that God had closed because of Adam and Eve’s sin? There is contradiction in the bible over sacrifices. Deuteronomy 12:31 and 18:10 is against burning humans as sacrifice but Hebrews 9:21: “Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” and Hebrews 10: 8-10 “First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”. If that is not human sacrifice, what is? And, God’s will for Jesus was that He sacrificed Himself. Jesus chose to do it but it was God’s will that He do it.

Jesus** is** God.

It is certainly not the Church’s teaching that the Jews were responsible.
I find that very strange because throughout my Catholic schooling including being taught by De la Salle Catholic Brothers for 5 years; we were taught that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus.

The Brothers are not infallible.

The Antisemitism was very strong in the teaching. The Roman Catholic Church actively promoted Antisemitism since its inception right up until late in the 20th century.
What our Church did over those approx 1,700 years to Jews is absolutely disgraceful.

Evidence?

The real question is whether you accept His teaching…

The real answer as you know well is that I do not accept Adam and Eve, original sin and hell regardless of who teaches it. I am a Christian Universalist on hell. I believe that Jesus’ words on hell and eternal torture are mistranslations of ancient scriptures. Jesus is my moral compass and I constantly check whatever I do in life against that compass.

You need to justify your opinion that His words are mistranslations

Then how do you explain the blood-stained history of mankind and the lust for power at all costs?

I believe I have mentioned this to you before but I‘ll repeat it. You are the one stating that Adam and Eve existed and with that original sin. You are stating the positive and not me. Therefore the onus is on you to prove it. Just stating: “Then how do you explain the blood-stained history of mankind and the lust for power at all costs?” is not evidence. Please provide historical and biological evidence to prove that they existed and we all descended from them.We must have human ancestors who were the first to distinguish good from evil.

The fact that we are not God’s slaves and can choose to pay the price of independence for as long as we choose…
So if someone dies and says: “I choose not to be independent anymore”; they do not go to hell and can go to heaven?

They have to demonstrate they are genuinely repentant and make amends for the needless suffering they have caused. Words are not enough…

The writers of the Old Testament were not infallible.

You questioned me as in: “Was the account of the Creation in Genesis inspired by God? “Was Moses inspired by God?” “Were the prophets inspired by God? “Was Jesus mistaken in His references to the Old Testament?”
I quoted from the Old Testament to prove that Moses and God wanted women and children killed and virgins raped, so you now say: “The writers of the Old Testament were not infallible”.

The writers of the Old Testament were not infallible and made mistakes but they were inspired in their basic message that we are created by God, are all members of the human family, have committed sins which cause needless suffering and are deeply affected what others do and have done or failed to do…

 

[Michael19682]

I find that very strange because throughout my Catholic schooling including being taught by De la Salle Catholic Brothers for 5 years; **we were taught that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus. **The Antisemitism was very strong in the teaching. The Roman Catholic Church actively promoted Antisemitism since its inception right up until late in the 20th century. What our Church did over those approx 1,700 years to Jews is absolutely disgraceful. The Church is now a strong supporter of religious tolerance towards Jews. Please see: religioustolerance.org/vat_hol11.htm religioustolerance.org/vat_hol13.htm

:

During instruction [education] in logic, it becomes necessary for understanding inclusive and exclusive principles. Just as 8,9,10 are all included in 100, it is logical in some paradigms to say that 100 is 8,9, and 10, respectively. Jews did kill Christ in that ALL MEN KILLED HIM. Jews are obviously a subset of men. How one sees “the other” in humanity often depends, always depends, on ones experiences and personal conditioning.
Thus, everyone killed him. Most notably here, you and me every time we sin, we injure his body. There is really no difference. We support religious tolerance because of the universality of guilt and sin; as well as of Grace and Faith.

 

[Good_Fella]

My quote was aimed at unbaptised babies and infants. I can’t think of any adults who die in original sin alone. If you mean adults who refuse God in this life, it is far more likely that they will want to know God in the afterlife rather than the other way around.

How could they want to know God in the afterlife? The souls in Hell prefer themselves to God. They want nothing to do with Him. They chose death over life by knowingly and wilfully disobeying God while still on earth, despising His love and goodness.

I expect God to behave like a divine being which is far better than a human. I see hell as something that God would be definitely be untrue to Himself if he sanctioned it.

Justice is an immutable attribute of the Divine essence. So not even His mercy can negate it.

God is also an omnipotent being. Punishing us with His power is like us stamping on an ant.

There is no just reason for us to step on an ant. The souls in Hell are there because of their own lusts, not because of God’s lust for power.

Would you have preferred for them to be tortured in prison every day for life?

God doesn’t torture the souls in Hell. I suspect your conception of Hell is wrong.

It would go the other way around. One month in eternity would be like thousands of years in our time. Whatever, I’m sure God can change time dilation to make a million years feel like a million years to the offender.

Eternity is timeless. So there are no months in the afterlife.

No, but we sentence murderers to death and it compounds the punishment many times over if they have to wait on death row for years. God could do likewise if you want a bigger punishment.

Death row is a reprieve for inmates who are afraid to be executed. While waiting they can still cling to the hope that a change in state legislation might deliver them from such a death. Meanwhile, the annihilation of the soul in Hell would be unjust to God, for the punishment it deserves would be cancelled on account that God continues to exist. The transgression against God is eternal, though the transgressor’s act is temporal in real time and space. As long as God is offended against by an act of transgression, the transgressor must be punished for his act of transgression against God. And there is nothing the soul can do to compensate God for his act of transgression against Him, since the scope of its gravity is infinite. Repentance in this life where the act of transgression takes place is the only solution.

I completely agree with you. God has created an imperfect universe and our WorlMd for a purpose. God wants us to improve ourselves without direct coercion. He is giving us free will to sort out our worldwide problems. It is not so much technical advancement although that does have a place but more mankind living in peace together; love of your fellow man.

God gave man a free will so he can choose between life and death. The souls in Hell chose to be there. There is no commandment of God that is impossible for us to obey, since we all have received sufficient grace to be able to pursue righteousness.

Jesus was talking to His disciples in 16:12-13. We are all human and can make mistakes. No church including the Catholic Church is completely infallible in religious matters. All Christian churches are guided by the Holy Spirit. Even the Mormon Church claims they are guided by the Holy Spirit. At the end of the day, humans can make mistakes even though they believe they are guided by the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. The Protestant churches were founded by mortal men. Jesus was talking to his apostles when he commissioned them to preach the gospel and baptise all nations knowing that he would be with them until the end of time (Mt 28:20). Jesus was alluding to their valid successors in the episcopate. The Holy Spirit was sent to preserve and safeguard the divine truth in matters of faith and morals until Christ returns (1 Tim 3:15).

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html
scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#scripture_III
scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#scripture_IV

It is obviously fair justice to sentence a cold blooded murderer to life in prison. Is the cold blooded murderer sentenced to torture every day whilst he is in prison?

Hell isn’t a torture chamber in the worldly sense. Ignore those You tube videos posted by evangelical Christians. I believe it is the condition of the soul which causes the suffering, or else we couldn’t say that the souls in Hell chose to be there.

Are all the people who die in mortal sin and therefore destined for hell cold blooded murders? There is obviously a massive conflict in the Divine essence.

Murder is one mortal sin among many. Adulterers are stoned to death in some Muslim countries.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[fisherman_carl]

What an interesting reply. I have always included “free will” in my belief in Universal salvation. I may be wrong but from what I have read on the subject of Universal salvation, the early Church Fathers were largely Universalists and did not believe in eternal torment. They took this stance from the evidence in the original Holy Scriptures. The church fathers closest to the beginning of Christianity were well versed in Koine Greek (the language of the New Testament) and largely did not believe in endless torment for the sake of retribution. **They believed in limited, corrective punishment **based on their understanding of the original Holy Scriptures which were mainly, if not totally, written in Koine Greek. I have also read that some of these original Holy Scriptures were written in Archaic Hebrew and Archaic Aramaic. I believe most scholars say they were all written in Koine Greek?

I want to bring in “free will” and my position on “corrective punishment” that I have always mentioned in my comments when needed in this thread. I firmly believe in “you do the crime; you do the time”. I have no problem with Adolf Hitler serving 1 million years in prison and a lot more if justified. However, I do have a problem with Adolf Hitler being tortured and especially being tortured forever. He and everyone else uses free will and free will has consequences but these consequences should not lead to **eternal **punishment/torture.

I now want to bring in the most important “person” in all this – God. What attributes does God have? He is omnipotent - infinitely powerful. He can create a universe in the blink of an eye. He has so much love especially for the advanced life forms he has created that the love of a trillion saints would be infinitely dim by comparison. He has infinite amounts of forgiveness, mercy and justice. Yet with all the above infinite attributes, we are told to believe that for one unconfessed mortal sin at death; He will sentence you to torture for eternity. Even mere human judges in the developed World would never sentence anyone to torture for a second. I rest my case.

In order for universal salvation to be true and free will to be possible, then repentance after death must be possible. But, we haven’t established that repentance after death is or would always be possible. And, even if it was, if free will really is free, then someone could choose to never repent or receive forgiveness.

 

[arte]

We don’t agree on hell, nor heaven it seems. This sounds like heaven is some big ego trip. That’s not my image, which is of seeing God with all creation singing His praises. We are bathed in his love right here and now, always. Not everyone realizes this because they are looking at themselves and lesser goods. When we love others we know love.

:twocents:

I don’t think it sounds like one big ego trip at all. There are lots of people who do not feel God’s love in this World. Atheists do not feel God’s love and it is possible that some Christians, Muslims and Jews do not feel God’s love as well or as well as other members of their faith. I feel God’s love. I completely agree with your comment on people looking at themselves and lesser goods. What I am trying to get across in my comment is that ALL people will be overwhelmed with God’s love when they actually meet Him including you, me, and every other person in this World. That will make everyone including atheists and the most evil of people to sing His praises.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I don’t think it sounds like one big ego trip at all. There are lots of people who do not feel God’s love in this World. Atheists do not feel God’s love and it is possible that some Christians, Muslims and Jews do not feel God’s love as well or as well as other members of their faith. I feel God’s love. I completely agree with your comment on people looking at themselves and lesser goods. What I am trying to get across in my comment is that ALL people will be overwhelmed with God’s love when they actually meet Him including you, me, and every other person in this World. That will make everyone including atheists and the most evil of people to sing His praises.

According to the Orthodox not everyone experiences God’s presence or his love the same. Those who have rejected God will feel horrible in his presence. His love will feel like fire because they will feel their sin and their rejection of that love.

 

[pocaracas]

According to the Orthodox not everyone experiences God’s presence or his love the same. Those who have rejected God will feel horrible in his presence. His love will feel like fire because they will feel their sin and their rejection of that love.

But… why is the refusal to take other people’s word for it interpreted as a rejection of God?

 

[You]

But… why is the refusal to take other people’s word for it interpreted as a rejection of God?

whoever is not against me is for me.

 

[Good_Fella]

I don’t think it sounds like one big ego trip at all. There are lots of people who do not feel God’s love in this World. **Atheists do not feel God’s love **and it is possible that some Christians, Muslims and Jews do not feel God’s love as well or as well as other members of their faith. I feel God’s love. I completely agree with your comment on people looking at themselves and lesser goods. What I am trying to get across in my comment is that ALL people will be overwhelmed with God’s love when they actually meet Him including you, me, and every other person in this World. That will make everyone including atheists and the most evil of people to sing His praises.

So what you’re now saying is that people commit mortal sins and feel justified in committing them because they don’t sufficiently experience the love of God in their lives. But there are many atheists who do in fact feel genuinely sorry for any grave offenses they may have committed against their neighbour and would like to take back what they did.

The problem is that the souls which are consigned to Hell are not overwhelmed with God’s love in a positive way, since they have been denied the Beatific Vision. Instead of praising God, they blaspheme Him for the suffering they must endure for actions they still feel justified in having committed. Obstinacy is an unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself said that this sin cannot be forgiven in this life or the next.The condition of the soul at the moment of death is forever fixed.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[hasantas]

=pocaracas;13332204]Here’s the news report from Human Rights Watch:
"
…
I’m sorry, I don’t know arabic to find an adequate original source. This is the best I can do.

There are nothing about killing atheist but just some political issues. I do not respect some administrational works too.

I say that. Other atheists may just not think about it and simply stick with “I don’t care”.
Although, it does come off as a result of considering all gods as non-existent. If they don’t exist, then someone must have invented them. There’s no other way, is there?

The source of faith do not seem to be fictional. Prophet proved their case through miracles and by some other means. The fiction do not make such process. And there is only one God but non gods. For instance Christians say Trinity but that do not mean they believe in three apart gods but they say God process in three way. Or Hindus believe in thousands of gods but indeed there is only one great God(Vishnu). Other gods are a kind of God’s servants or manifestations of God(Creator).

Can you suppose that you do not exist? Or are you just of fictional? Or do not the universe exist really?

Prophets had seen the angel who brought the revelation. Or prophet Muhammad saw angels, Heavens, Hell through Mirach miracle. And that prophet always was used to be right and never lie. If people had seen theatrical and false actions from prophet they would refute Him. So you cannot say that’s merely fictional and you cannot save your self and take away from responsibility.

“all”? “thousands”?
What do you know about religions other than your own?
Ancient Egyptian mythology lasted for about 4000 years -
…

In Central America, the Maya had they bloodthirsty gods, in the shape of huge birds… what was going on there?!

And these are just a sample from some of the better known religions that humanity has accepted.
…
same bag.

The problem is not religion. The religions always were used to be differents but the main topic of faith were same. The religion were ways of faith to live and apply. We have different ways of life. All groups of mankind were/are used to have the idea of a creator and God. Adam was first human and Adam knew God very well. And God had sent prophets in different periods.

By time people got away from real knowledges. For instance Moses was one of gretaest prophet and was very strong. Once He left His people alone for a while and when He came back He saw that His people had made a calf statue by their hands and they had been started to worship that statue. That caes demostrate the way of corruption.

Mayas had belief of God too but many nations recognised God as the good one and the evil one. The fact is that the evil one is the Satan. Satan is not God but people recognised it to have a great power of evil and devastation. Indeed Satan has no any power but Satan has many deceptions and can trick people easily because to impair is more easier than to repair.

The true one is that “there is God”

yeah, of course. 100 years ago, tons of people believed this yogi was levitating:
yogicmiracle.blogspot.pt/2009/03/indian-yogi-subbayah-pullavars.html
Nowadays… well… we don’t believe them, we know their tricks.
Ignorant people can be fooled by simple tricks.

There are illusionists who do some things which seems as alike miracles but the miracles are different. The pharaoh had many warlocks and he thought that Moses had tried to trick them by magics. So Pharaoh called Moses to challenge warlocks. They all gathered and when warlocks had seen miracle of Moses they understood that that was not magic. And all warlocks believed in Moses and God. Miracles were not tricks.

Human consist of atoms and soul. If a human eat lesser, sleep lesser and resist to desires then human approach to level of spirit. So such people can perform some miraculous acts. So Yoga is a way of self-education. That case you point may be a trick but people can do such thing by getting high morality. That stuation is called Karamat in Islam. Moraly high people(Avliya) had performed millions of Karamats and millions of people reported those. One of the most low level of karamat is that when you talk about some one then you nsee that one came soon. A sense of soul can feel that case before it happen. Or if some one look at you form behind side you can feel that. Because we have soul and that soul can see without eyes.

People can speak truthfully and still say things that aren’t real.
They may have believed it.
Many people, today, make inferences from the beliefs they are taught as children and come, in turn, to believe in those inferences. It’s the wonderful world of theology.

Well… some people could see their lies…

For instance prophet muhammad had informed many cases before they had happened and people saw that. If one of that news would not happen then they would refute prophet very easily. And prophets were most moraly high, clever, most righteous etc. So you claim that those had been wrong to have fictional ideas!

Some, yes… some were in it for power, money, fame… some still are: huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/19/best-paid-pastors_n_1214043.html

Except prophets every human can use religion for their services. Can you show a case from prophets? Some prophets were rich but that was not by religion later.

How long did it take to come up with the ancient egyptian mythology and convince all egyptians that it was true?

[continued]

As I mentioned people had been alway to have different ways of belief but in ancient Egypt too there have been always belief of God and other world.

 

[hasantas]

=pocaracas;13332205][continuation]

Are you saying I reject all morality?
Well, I better go to jail then, before I hurt anyone… oh wait, I’ve managed to get through 35 years of life without hurting anyone (except my brother when we got in a tumble, but that’s normal)… how on Earth do you explain that?! There are millions of atheists who live perfectly good and moral lives… how does that happen?
Here’s a hint: api.ning.com/files/QfF46QZjDE4Zaz4VQvShngGBfmPgZ1bRL9yGh0L1Utj05hy9po*9gRkgACoBw5P7s7iBfTwnlmuSj7HETpHqH3DNF0hF74/PennJilletteOnWhyHeIsntRapingandKillingEveryone42715.jpg

You misunderstood or I couldn’t explain. I know that many of atheist have high moral and I appreciate them. What I mean is different. I meant senses.

Human consist not of only matter but also human has a soul. We can see, hear, feel, love, mind etc. Now can senses be the conlusion of energy? Or can energy(biological or chemical not importand which kind) generate senses? We use energy to run machines, robots, computers etc. But non of those have senses. And we cannot make a cell from scratch. We can product a cell from other and we cannot make a cell by composing atoms one by one. So how can a cell be formed by chances? Human is the most clever of universe and human cannot make a cell in laboratories as it supposed to be by itself! I explained that because to not say that it is biological.

And when a biological organisma die then nothing can animate it back. If the life is by energy which is stored up in blood then we would able to animate a body again by blood circulation by machine but body never get life again after death! That show that the sorce of life is not insensitive energy. The source of life is from God.

Or a camera can record but we do not say camera sees or hears or think etc. If human do not load a program into computer it will never start to do anything. But human has free will to do. etc. etc. etc.

So do you reject morality(senses) or do you recognise those to be just conclusion of enrgy?

 

[pocaracas]

whoever is not against me is for me.

Not exactly the golden rule…

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I would like to briefly respond to the defense of the justice of hell formulated this way:

1. God’s dignity is infinite
2. Any offense against God wounds his infinite dignity
3. Therefore, the just and proportional punishment must be infinite (endless hell).

I do not think this is or should be how we make judgments about the proportionality or justice of a punishment. Rather, I think the “proportionality” must be derived by the harm done to the victim rather than the dignity of the victim.

For instance, we punish in order to make restitution, deter prospective offenders, and exact vengeance upon the perpetrator. We determine the quality of punishment according to the degree of harm done. “An eye for an eye” is a proportionally just punishment. The victim lost an eye, and so too should the perpetrator. This is directly proportionate. Murderers should be executed, thieves should be fined, rapists should be castrated, etc.

Obviously, this isn’t a perfect system of justice. It isn’t always possible to implement a directly proportional punishment. In fact, this “gap” in justice is one of my main reasons for believing in God. We need God to “make things right” on a universal scale because it simply isn’t possible to fix every unjust situation.

However, when we make judgments about what a person “deserves” we rely on our intuitions of proportionality predicated upon harm quite regularly. I don’t think this is misguided even if we can’t ultimately bring about perfect justice in every case.

The notion that punishment should be proportional to the dignity of the offended, however, is counter-intuitive. It results in a moral system where we can harm with impunity those who are “beneath our dignity.” The caste system in India, apartheid, or American slavery come to mind. The genocide of the Native Americans and the holocaust are also good examples. Since the “sub-humans” have less “dignity” we can murder, torture, and enslave them without being unjust.

Consider the following:

You are walking down the street in a foreign country. You notice a shiny coin on the ground, pick it up, and put it in your pocket. Suddenly, you are accosted by armed guards and escorted to prison where you are tortured for months and then brutally executed. While being tortured, the executioners tell you they have killed your whole family. You are told that this punishment is just, because you stole the coin from the most dignified and powerful king in the land. You have wounded his exceeding dignity and therefore this punishment is just and proportional.

Sound right to you? I doubt it! And yet, this is a logical extension of the idea that punishment can be proportional to “dignity” rather than “harm.”

Now, I am not saying we deserve no punishment in the afterlife because we can’t harm God at all. I am saying that we deserve punishment in the afterlife because we harm other human beings. But, we can never deserve infinite punishment because we can never do infinite harm. No, no, please don’t bring up the circular “causing people to go to hell/continuously choosing hell is infinite harm” canard. You can’t require the existence of hell to prove that it exists!

God is totally above us and exceeding in glory and awesome majesty. We cannot harm him and so our punishments and rewards in the afterlife should be based on how we treat our brothers and sisters.

What of blasphemy or idolatry? I argue that both of these harm us quite severely, and their corresponding punishments have nothing to do with harm inflicted upon God. Blasphemy harms us because it makes us unable to love God, and idolatry harms us because it confuses us about who God is. It will take quite a lot for God to bring us around in the afterlife if we commit these sins, but he can do anything! That said, in some cases, it might be impossible due to the free choice of the blasphemer or idolater. These people cannot live forever. May there be no one like this!

 

[You]

Not exactly the golden rule…

It is what he said.

 

[arte]

Even in this world there are individuals who choose to live for themselves because it gives them great pleasure and satisfaction even though they are frustrated and miserable because their power is limited. It is a well-known fact that we more we have the more we want - unless we restrain ourselves. The only antidote to self-love is love for others but that requires self-sacrifice which not everyone is prepared to make. That is why Jesus told us to take up our cross and follow Him. He wouldn’t have warned us if everyone followed His example - nor is there any guarantee that everyone will obey Him. There is plenty of evidence of our weakness when faced with temptation.

I completely agree with everything you have written with the exception that some people who want more and more and are selfish to a degree do practise self sacrifice in that they will help others and are charitable towards people they do not know.

To deny the possibility of Hell is to reject Our Lord’s teaching and underestimate the harsh reality of evil but it is an understandable mistake because it is impossible for us to grasp the full extent of the horror and cruelty in the world. If we could we would probably go out of our minds. Yet on the other hand we cannot know how many saints there are like Archbishop Romero who are filled with unselfish love and courage in their dedication to the poor and oppressed. If we could we would be overcome with a deep sense of shame and guilt for having done so little to help those who are less fortunate than we are. Similarly we cannot grasp the full meaning of “divine” and “diabolical”. They are extremes we are not expected to understand because they are far beyond our scope. All that matters is that we try to do the best we can and leave the rest to God remembering St Paul’s words:

I am aware that I am rejecting Jesus’ teaching on hell but for me hell is something so diabolical that it cannot possibly exist. It completely goes against God’s (including Jesus) love, forgiveness and mercy. I will never be able to accept it as long as I live and when I die, even if I do not end up there. In heaven, I would ask Jesus and His father why such a place exists - what is the point of eternal suffering? I do not underestimate the reality of evil but as you say we probably do not comprehend just how evil, cruel and horrific some people are. I completely agree with you on this.

In the early 1980’s, I gave a presentation on the war in El Salvador and the US involvement. It was titled: “El Salvador; another Vietnam?” I covered the Farabundo Martí National Liberation Front (FMLN). Fortunately, a few weeks before my presentation, a member of the FMLN (may have been a political member) was giving a speech in the university near where I was living in Reading City in the UK. I gained some really valuable information which not only helped greatly in my study but also confirmed my suspicions that the Salvadoran government with its rich supporters and right wing military death squads were the real problem and not the FMLN. Besides the assassination of Archbishop Romero, 4 Catholic nuns (I think there were more as well) including a US Catholic nun were raped and killed. People would be arrested in the night and never seen again. I just read this interesting article in a Catholic journal on the beatification of Archbishop Romero cruxnow.com/church/2015/05/23/not-everyone-in-el-salvador-is-celebrating-the-romero-beatification/

35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:31-39

I completely agree. If hell exists and God’s love is felt there then I would say there would be a chance that sinners would repent of their sins, accepting God’s love and eventually being allowed into heaven. There would be a point then for the possibility of eternal punishment based upon the repentance of the sinner and the acceptance of God’s love. I love reading St Paul’s letters. I must have read them a million times by now.

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents: With respect to Divine justice:

What I see are people becoming who they want.
Justice is built-into the person one has chosen to be through one’s actions.
If one’s life is dedicated to themselves and their needs, at the expense of others,
that is who one will be for eternity, that is the reward.
If one cares about others, devoting their life to God and their neighbour,
That person will spend eternity with God and their neighbour.
We have the capacity by means of the sacrifice of our Lord,
to choose God, to say we are sorry, to give Him our sins,
but still carry the grime that is sin inside of us;
this will be purged, burned away by His love.
Hell is actually worse than just simple ongoing pain;
many of us deal with that every day already,
and will do so until our lives are over.
The way I see it hell, finding ourselves hopelessly lost forever,
is nothing we don’t give up on our Journey, which is Christ Himself.
That which is sin is left behind as we die in Christ.
Hell is merely sin freed from its empty promises
and as it is seen by compassion which is the fundamental Reality.
Life provides us with the opportunity to approach God;
clinging to sin, hell is who we will become.

 

[TarkanAttila]

But… why is the refusal to take other people’s word for it interpreted as a rejection of God?

That assumes many, many, many things that are wrong.

For instance, that you don’t take people’s words for it on other issues.

Have you ever seen a black hole? How about the moon of Europa? Even an atom? Have you even seen a necessary causal connection between your feet and the pavement?

Have you ever been to China? Were you ever there during the Tang Dynasty? How about when the Mongols ruled? Were you ever in pre-American America, or pre-Christian Europe?

Do you know the intimate details of how your phone works? How your dryer works? How your car works? Do you doubt those things will work simply because you do not understand them? Do you reject not only that dryer, but all clothes dryers in general, when one part of a dryer mysteriously seems to stop working?

Faith, at least when it comes to the normal circumstances of life, is normal. It is normal to believe my foot will push me along the pavement, rather than shatter into a million pieces, even though there is no logical law necessitating it. It is normal to believe in the existence of China, even Mongolian China, even if one has never been there or then. It is normal to believe in miracles, and the supernatural, even if one doesn’t agree to the details of the where (God, or gods? Angels? Demons? Spirits?) they came from, because people do experience these all the time, if they begin seriously agnostic about such things. Maybe a man might not believe in God. But it is sheer dogmatism, a cult of state to rival Stalin, to say any man cannot believe in anomalies.

If we buy that several men have once seen invisible particles make a ghastly amount of energy - if we buy that a handful of horsemen terrorised the entire civilised world in the High Middle Ages - if we buy that we can make a train faster than any other just by putting two powerful pieces of metal we call “magnets” against each other -

The idea that twelve peasants in a village in rural Judea saw their leader call himself God, go to his death for that, and then rise out of the tomb and live again is relatively tame. “Greater things than these you will do.”

I have enough faith to believe in quantum mechanics alongside Newtonian mechanics, the 14 billion year old universe, and that Barack Obama was somehow elected to a second term. I would be an idiot, given the evidence I have seen, to not put my faith in the Resurrection, and its witnesses.

 

[fisherman_carl]

… Rather, I think the “proportionality” must be derived by the harm done to the victim rather than the dignity of the victim.

For instance, we punish in order to make restitution, deter prospective offenders, and exact vengeance upon the perpetrator. …

The notion that punishment should be proportional to the dignity of the offended, however, is counter-…

Consider the following:

You are walking down the street in a foreign country. You notice a shiny coin on the ground, pick it up, and put it in your pocket. … You have wounded his exceeding dignity and therefore this punishment is just and proportional.

Sound right to you? I doubt it! And yet, this is a logical extension of the idea that punishment can be proportional to “dignity” rather than “harm.”

In the above scenario I would just claim the “law of finders keepers, losers weepers”.

Actually, in this scenario you didn’t really commit a crime. So no honest judge could convict you of one. You found a coin in the street. That is no crime. Thus, any punishment, never mind the one you outlined is justified. Not only that but even if you could think of it is a crime it would only deserve the lightest of punishments.

I think that punishment can be determined by both, not just one or the other. That is it is the severity of the crime, but it can also be the importance of the person who was offended that matters. Yes, it is the severity of the crime that should be considered. But, also there are times when the importance of the person involved is also a consideration. For example, lets say you get in a fight with someone at a bar and you punch them in the face. So, in this case you get arrested and are in jail for a day. But, what if you punched the president of the U.S. in the face? In this case you might have to go to jail for a year. Same crime, but there is a difference in the gravity of the crime because of the importance of the office of the President that was involved. It wasn’t that the President had more dignity as he is just a human also. But, his office is of higher importance. The same goes for a King in a Kingdom. And, the persons who hold these offices have greater protection because of the importance of their position. A greater punishment is merited to deter others and protect the president because of the importance of his office.

Since God is infinite, almighty, the greatest conceivable being, can you honestly tell me that it means the same to insult him as it does to insult your buddy? If you would take special consideration for the treatment of the president of the U.S., how much more for God? Now fortunately for us God is also infinitely merciful, much more than any president. Thus, we can receive his forgiveness if we ask for it.

Now, I am not saying we deserve no punishment in the afterlife because we can’t harm God at all. I… No, no, please don’t bring up the circular “causing people to go to hell/continuously choosing hell is infinite harm” canard. You can’t require the existence of hell to prove that it exists!

God is totally above us and exceeding in glory and awesome majesty. We cannot harm him and so our punishments and rewards in the afterlife should be based on how we treat our brothers and sisters.

I agree that God can not be harmed. And, the bible does say we will be judged by how we treat others. In fact Jesus says how you treat others is how you treat him. However, as you allude to below offenses against God actually harm us and therefore cause harm to our brothers and sisters. The book of Revelations 21:27 says that “Nothing impure will ever enter it [the heavenly Jerusalem], nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Thus, eternal separation from God is not just about punishment, but about keeping out the liars, murderers, thieves, etc, from the kingdom of God. Should the good reward of the kingdom of God also be for those who have chosen evil over good, or darkness over light?

I think that the choices we make in this life shape who we become. Jews are familiar with the “Two Ways”. One path leads to destruction and the other leads to life. If you follow God and his commandments you will have life. If not then you will die. This is throughout the OT. And Jesus talks about it also like when he mentions the straight and narrow path to life versus the highway to destruction. If we choose the road to destruction it shapes who we become to the point that we can no longer change. It’s not just about punishment, but about a separation of darkness from light. Hell was created for the devil and his demons. St. Augustine thought this happened when in Genesis 1 when God separated the light (angels) from the dark (demons). Since the stars and the sun were created later.

What of blasphemy or idolatry? I argue that both of these harm us quite severely, and their corresponding punishments have nothing to do with harm inflicted upon God. Blasphemy harms us because it makes us unable to love God, and idolatry harms us because it confuses us about who God is. It will take quite a lot for God to bring us around in the afterlife if we commit these sins, but he can do anything! That said, in some cases, it might be impossible due to the free choice of the blasphemer or idolater. These people cannot live forever. May there be no one like this!

I find this comment on blasphemy to be particularly insightful - “Blasphemy harms us because it makes us unable to love God”

 

[arte]

New International Version
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

New Living Translation
During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.

English Standard Version
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

I didn’t obviously write this, I’ll just paste but I’m sure you know it.

And I guarded (them) - ἐτήρουν signifies watchful observation; ἐφύλαξα, guardianship as behind the walls of a fortress - and not one perished - went to destruction - except that the son of perdition (has perished). Christ does not say that the son of perdition was given him by the Father and guarded from the evil one, and yet had gone to his own place; the exception refers simply to the “not one perished.” Αἰ μὴ has occasionally a meaning not exactly equal to ἀλλὰ, but expresses an exception which does not cover the whole of the ideas involved in the previous clause (see Matthew 12:4; Luke 4:26, 27; Galatians 1:19, etc.). This awful Hebraistic phrase is used by St. Paul (2 Thessalonians 2:3; cf. 2 Samuel 12:5) for antichrist, and numerous phrases of the kind show how a genitive following υἱὸς or τέκνον expresses the full characteristic or the chief feature of certain persons (thus cf. υἱὸς γεένης τέκνα φῶτος κατάρας, etc.). This victim of perdition, this child of hell, has completed his course; even now he has laid his plans for my destruction and his own. He has so perished in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Even if the full telic force of ἵνα is preserved here, he does not free the “son of perdition” from the responsibility of his own destruction. The Scripture portraiture of Messiah has been realized. Psalm 41:9, which has already been quoted by our Lord in John 13:18, is probably still in his mind (cf. also Isaiah 57:12, 13). Some commentators - Arch-deacon Watkins, Dean Alford - press the fact that the “son of perdition” must have been among those who were given to Christ by the Father, who were watched, guarded, taught by God; but that Judas nevertheless took his own way and went to his own place. Thoma compares the lost disciple with the lost sheep of the synoptists, as though we had a reference to a true reprobate, a son of Belial, Apollyon, and the like. Moulton justly protests against any countenance being found here for the irrevocable decree. But if the interpretation of the εἰ μὴ given above is sound, there is no inclusion of the traitor among those who are “of the truth,” etc.; but he was one who, notwithstanding boundless opportunity, went to his own place in the perversity of his own will.

Berean Study Bible
While I was with them, I protected them and guarded them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Berean Literal Bible
When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

New American Standard Bible
"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

I do not understand the relationship of your post with my quote. Please explain what you are tying to show me.