Is eternal suffering pointless?

[arte]

Jesus died for the sins** we** commit.

Whatever, you are still describing human sacrifice. Jesus was also a human being.

Jesus** is** God.

But Jesus was also a man and felt the same **extreme agony **we would all feel being crucified Even if Jesus is God why does His father need a sacrifice?

The Brothers are not infallible.

There were a large number of them and if you include Catholic teachers in Catholic schools throughout the UK who likely followed the same theology, we’re talking about a very large number. I’ve spoken to other Catholics from several parts of the UK and Catholics from other European countries and they all tell the same message.

Evidence?

Before I start, it has to be known that throughout history there have been some very brave Catholics who have defended Jews especially in WW2; in many cases risking and loosing their lives. I am also looking for a Catholic site that I read the other day which shows how good the Church has been in helping Jews. When I find it – I’ll post it. ** I am normally defending the Catholic Church in other debates **so this has been a bit painful for me to reverse rolls. The first 2 sites show in chronological order historical events from the Church against the Jews. I actually do not like these 2 sites and I have not checked the events quoted elsewhere to confirm them. I especially do not like the first site from checking information for another debate. The site seems to be anti the Catholic Church.
religioustolerance.org/vat_hol11.htm
sullivan-county.com/news/mine/timeline.htm

These sites seem to provide a more balanced view.
economist.com/node/770783
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0004_0_04300.html

I have included Wikipedia because they can at times produce a neutral view. I found the “Cum Nimis Absurdum” interesting.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism

You need to justify your opinion that His words are mistranslations

This is a good opener to Christian Universalism. It covers the history of Universal Salvation and how hell became eternal.
christianuniversalist.org/resources/articles/salvation-conspiracy/

This covers the mistranslation of important passages spoken by Jesus about hell in the Bible. It also has an interesting table showing the number of times hell is stated in the OT and NT in different versions of the Bible. There is a lot of reading to be done.
godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell
This is the start of God’s plan for all to be saved – the Introduction. Again, a lot of reading to do.
godsplanforall.com/introduction

We must have human ancestors who were the first to distinguish good from evil.

Yes, we must but it will have occurred at different times in different places with different people and not just a one off event at a particular time and place with just 2 people.

They have to demonstrate they are genuinely repentant and make amends for the needless suffering they have caused. Words are not enough…

I agree and I believe that everyone will feel the pain of what they have done wrong without asking for forgiveness and making amends in this World. There are some really evil people out there **who must be made to feel the pain **of what they have done or caused. God will know whether they are genuinely repentant.

The writers of the Old Testament were not infallible and made mistakes but they were inspired in their basic message that we are created by God, are all members of the human family, have committed sins which cause needless suffering and are deeply affected what others do and have done or failed to do…

I completely agree.

 

[davidv]

Hi TarkanAttila,

You cannot personally forgive “final unrepentance”? {snip}

Who is the “you” here? Is it TarkanAttila? If so, it is not his/her’s to forgive. Only God could do so. Which highlights one of the conditions of God’s forgiveness, repentance.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Hi TarkanAttila,

You cannot personally forgive “final unrepentance”?
Is it because you do not think it is right to forgive?

It’s not that it is wrong to be forgiven.

But “repentance” is the desire to be forgiven and to seek forgiveness. The unrepentant soul does not believe it needs forgiveness, and rejects it.

It is impossible, literally impossible to forgive someone who refuses to be forgiven.

Does that make sense? Your question is like asking, “If I bring an horse to water and it refuses to drink it, and dies of thirst, am I to blame for its dying of thirst?”.

 

[OneSheep]

Who is the “you” here? Is it TarkanAttila? If so, it is not his/her’s to forgive. Only God could do so. Which highlights one of the conditions of God’s forgiveness, repentance.

Hi David,

I was responding to Tarkan Attila’s comments. He was the “you”.

Jesus, from the cross, forgave the unrepentant, remember? Repentance was not a condition.

However, if a person does not repent, he does not experience God’s love in a real way. He is still enslaved by his nature in some way. Do you see the similarity with your view? There has to be some action on the part of the sinner in order to gain freedom. Do you see the difference? God loves and forgives unconditionally.

God always waits for us, God always understands us, God always forgives us.

Pope Francis

 

[OneSheep]

It’s not that it is wrong to be forgiven.

Hi

Did you misread my question? To clarify, I was asking if you think it is wrong to forgive sometimes.

But “repentance” is the desire to be forgiven and to seek forgiveness. The unrepentant soul does not believe it needs forgiveness, and rejects it.

It is impossible, literally impossible to forgive someone who refuses to be forgiven.

If that were the case, though, could a person use that criteria to refuse to forgive someone for their whole life? Jesus calls us to something more, right?

It is not impossible, no. Jesus forgave people, from the cross, who did not ask for forgiveness nor did they seek it. However, you may be saying that people who refuse to be forgiven do not experience God’s forgiveness even though it is always there (read the Pope’s quote above),and their enslavement to grudge or desire continues. Does that make some sense?

Does that make sense? Your question is like asking, “If I bring an horse to water and it refuses to drink it, and dies of thirst, am I to blame for its dying of thirst?”.

Hopefully my reframing the question helped. If you are “bringing the horse to water” then you have forgiven. If it dies of thirst, it has not reaped the benefits through repentance. Maybe we’ve got it all cleared up now.

Thanks!

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Eternal suffering is not about making a point. God does not make points … it isn’t about that at all.

What God’s will is that all men should be saved. Jesus said it and said it and said it. That is the point he is making. He came to help. He came because he loved. He came to save us from suffering eternally. He does not get kicks from anyone’s suffering. The implication is as tho he is up there gleafully smiling as the devils turn people over in the fire.

St Paul said that murderers, adulterers, fornicators, liars, thiefs, and so on will not get into God’s kingdom. He didn’t say anything about hell being pointless. But he did say they wouldn’t get in. Because, they have soiled themselves without cleaning themselves up in the love detergent God furnishes. They are not fit because they made themselves unfit and did nothing about it. There are no points to be made … it is the way it is because God is pure, and all holy, and foul, nasty people do not fit.

Some how our modern day thinking is that God is some buddy of ours that doesn’t know as much as we know. We have totally lost all sense of majesty and greatness of God. Whatever we think is the way it will be. Whatever I want and like is the way I will live and God will just have to go along to get along.

Yah…right. And it is all God’s fault too … which I forgot to mention.

If there is a point to be made, it is this one … we are totally stupid Lord, forgive us.

If hell is pointless, and if hell is endless suffering, this means that God desires endless suffering for its own sake. This is profoundly evil and makes God seem foolish/weak/sadistic/ignorant. If hell serves no “greater good” then it is totally unnecessary. If it is unnecessary, it is gratuitous. If it is gratuitous, then God has made a universe containing a gratuitous evil. The philosophical discourse surrounding this is unanimous: if God has allowed a gratuitous evil, then God cannot be all-good. He could potentially be “mostly good” but not omni-benevolent.

The true God is omni-benevolent. He is wise beyond measure and good beyond imagination.

Is the Catholic god lesser? Is he a little weak, a little evil, a little foolish?

 

[Aloysium]

If hell is pointless, and if hell is endless suffering, this means that God desires endless suffering for its own sake. This is profoundly evil and makes God seem foolish/weak/sadistic/ignorant. If hell serves no “greater good” then it is totally unnecessary. If it is unnecessary, it is gratuitous. If it is gratuitous, then God has made a universe containing a gratuitous evil. The philosophical discourse surrounding this is unanimous: if God has allowed a gratuitous evil, then God cannot be all-good. He could potentially be “mostly good” but not omni-benevolent.

The true God is omni-benevolent. He is wise beyond measure and good beyond imagination.

Is the Catholic god lesser? Is he a little weak, a little evil, a little foolish?

There is nothing that affirms that there is anything but these few years on earth, other than what has been revealed.
Scripture also includes numerous references to hell.
Other than in people’s wishful thinking, if there is life after death, it includes the possibility of hell.
This is crystal clear. I have no idea what you are talking about.
Consider the church foolish at your peril.
Love includes justice.
How we spend our time here has consequences that are very real and very serious!
Witness the Man on the cross.

 

[davidv]

Hi David,

I was responding to Tarkan Attila’s comments. He was the “you”.

Jesus, from the cross, forgave the unrepentant, remember?

Why are you so sure? Where does Scripture say they were unrepentant?

Repentance was not a condition.

Really? How do you know this? Scripture seems to require a condition.

14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
James 6

However, if a person does not repent, he does not experience God’s love in a real way. He is still enslaved by his nature in some way. Do you see the similarity with your view? There has to be some action on the part of the sinner in order to gain freedom. Do you see the difference? God loves and forgives unconditionally.

God always waits for us, God always understands us, God always forgives us.

Pope Francis

 

[tonyrey]

Jesus died for the sins we commit.

To be precise, human self-sacrifice - which Jesus told us is the greatest form of love.

Jesus is God.

But Jesus was also a man and felt the same extreme agony we would all feel being crucified Even if Jesus is God why does His father need a sacrifice?

The Father didn’t need a sacrifice. We needed God’s love to deliver us from evil,

The Brothers are not infallible.

There were a large number of them and if you include Catholic teachers in Catholic schools throughout the UK who likely followed the same theology, we’re talking about a very large number. I’ve spoken to other Catholics from several parts of the UK and Catholics from other European countries and they all tell the same message.

There are thousands of different Christian sects but they are not all true to Christ’s teaching…

Evidence?

Before I start, it has to be known that throughout history there have been some very brave Catholics who have defended Jews especially in WW2; in many cases risking and loosing their lives. I am also looking for a Catholic site that I read the other day which shows how good the Church has been in helping Jews. When I find it – I’ll post it. I am normally defending the Catholic Church in other debates so this has been a bit painful for me to reverse rolls. The first 2 sites show in chronological order historical events from the Church against the Jews. I actually do not like these 2 sites and I have not checked the events quoted elsewhere to confirm them. I especially do not like the first site from checking information for another debate. The site seems to be anti the Catholic Church.
religioustolerance.org/vat_hol11.htm
sullivan-county.com/news/mine/timeline.htm

These sites seem to provide a more balanced view.
economist.com/node/770783
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/…4_0_04300.html

I have included Wikipedia because they can at times produce a neutral view. I found the “Cum Nimis Absurdum” interesting.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ…d_antisemitism

The acid test of all these views is whether it is a Catholic doctrine.

You need to justify your opinion that His words are mistranslations

This is a good opener to Christian Universalism. It covers the history of Universal Salvation and how hell became eternal.
christianuniversalist.org…on-conspiracy/

Conspiracy theories include conspiracy theories about theories!

This covers the mistranslation of important passages spoken by Jesus about hell in the Bible. It also has an interesting table showing the number of times hell is stated in the OT and NT in different versions of the Bible. There is a lot of reading to be done.
godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell
This is the start of God’s plan for all to be saved – the Introduction. Again, a lot of reading to do.
godsplanforall.com/introduction

There are thousands of Christian sects precisely because individuals interpret the Bible for themselves, forgetting the Apostolic Church selected the books which constitute the Bible. They implicitly acknowledge the authority of the community established by Christ.

We must have human ancestors who were the first to distinguish good from evil.

Yes, we must but it will have occurred at different times in different places with different people and not just a one off event at a particular time and place with just 2 people.

The principle of economy should be observed unless there is contradictory evidence.

They have to demonstrate they are genuinely repentant and make amends for the needless suffering they have caused. Words are not enough…

I agree and I believe that everyone will feel the pain of what they have done wrong without asking for forgiveness and making amends in this World. There are some really evil people out there who must be made to feel the pain of what they have done or caused. God will know whether they are genuinely repentant.

There is no guarantee everyone will be…

The writers of the Old Testament were not infallible and made mistakes but they were inspired in their basic message that we are created by God, are all members of the human family, have committed sins which cause needless suffering and are deeply affected what others do and have done or failed to do.

.
I completely agree.

I’m delighted we end on that positive note! There is no pointless eternal suffering because it depends on us whether we pay the price for our own kingdom. Whatever we choose we shall be slaves: in Heaven we are slaves to God and in Hell we are slaves to ourselves. The difference is that the truth makes us free. We are emancipated by love for God and isolated by self-love. Being totally independent must be a source of great pleasure and satisfaction but it also leads to misery and frustration given that we are imperfect and not worthy of latria (supreme worship):

“You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.”
St Augustine -* Confessions
*

 

[TarkanAttila]

Hi

Did you misread my question? To clarify, I was asking if you think it is wrong to forgive sometimes.

Forgiveness is a virtue. Always.
And, actually, I think the Father will offer forgiveness, freely, even to the unrepentant.

But it will be refused, out of pride.

If that were the case, though, could a person use that criteria to refuse to forgive someone for their whole life? Jesus calls us to something more, right?

Certainly not. Forgiveness is an act we do to another.
But to be forgiven is a state that the one being forgiven. They can destroy my act of forgiveness by choosing to reject my forgiveness.

It is not impossible, no. Jesus forgave people, from the cross, who did not ask for forgiveness nor did they seek it.

A lot of people do not actively, visibly seek forgiveness.

It may turn out that they, in the end, do, once all the facts and feelings are untangled.
But being visibly seeking of forgiveness isn’t a precondition for being forgiven. One may be ignorant of the fact that he has done something wrong.

However, you may be saying that people who refuse to be forgiven do not experience God’s forgiveness even though it is always there (read the Pope’s quote above),and their enslavement to grudge or desire continues. Does that make some sense?

That sounds close to my thoughts.

It may be that they simply do not experience God’s grace and forgiveness. It may also be that they do not receive it - the way one does not receive the gift of a full colour 100" screen TV if one returns it to the warehouse it came from.

It may yet also be that God’s grace “harms” them, though I am only speculating. When a man walks around in darkness for an extended time, bright light hurts his eyes, even though his eyes were made for light. So might God’s goodness “harm” a man whose body and soul are owned by evilness.

Hopefully my reframing the question helped. If you are “bringing the horse to water” then you have forgiven. If it dies of thirst, it has not reaped the benefits through repentance. Maybe we’ve got it all cleared up now.

Thanks!

I think we are more or less on the same page.

I do think God can forgive most any sin - except the one I will not let him forgive.

 

[arte]

During instruction [education] in logic, it becomes necessary for understanding inclusive and exclusive principles. Just as 8,9,10 are all included in 100, it is logical in some paradigms to say that 100 is 8,9, and 10, respectively. Jews did kill Christ in that ALL MEN KILLED HIM. Jews are obviously a subset of men. How one sees “the other” in humanity often depends, always depends, on ones experiences and personal conditioning.
Thus, everyone killed him. Most notably here, you and me every time we sin, we injure his body. There is really no difference. We support religious tolerance because of the universality of guilt and sin; as well as of Grace and Faith.

Unfortunately, the personal conditioning can be affected by what you are taught as a child/teenager. In a way you are correct though because I met several Jews through my wife who worked for a Jewish family. They were all very nice people and my schooling did not affect my relationship with them. I was more concerned about the way our Church portrayed Jews and caused them severe hardship in its history. Even during those times many Catholics took it upon themselves to help Jewish people with some of them being killed in WW2 for doing just that. It is wonderful today to see Catholics and other Christians very interested in their Jewish roots and supporting Israel.

 

[fred_conty]

If hell is pointless, and if hell is endless suffering, this means that God desires endless suffering for its own sake. This is profoundly evil and makes God seem foolish/weak/sadistic/ignorant. If hell serves no “greater good” then it is totally unnecessary. If it is unnecessary, it is gratuitous. If it is gratuitous, then God has made a universe containing a gratuitous evil. The philosophical discourse surrounding this is unanimous: if God has allowed a gratuitous evil, then God cannot be all-good. He could potentially be “mostly good” but not omni-benevolent.

The true God is omni-benevolent. He is wise beyond measure and good beyond imagination.

Is the Catholic god lesser? Is he a little weak, a little evil, a little foolish?

God did not invent hell…we did.

Hell is where God isn’t. And since God contains all good, then there is no good outside of God. When we do not listen to him and separate ourselves from him, the only consequence there can be is that we have separated ourselves from all good … experiencing what is left … nothing but darkness, isolation, dissillusion, despair.

Sometimes the unfortunate idea is that we don’t need to heed the warning not to stick our finger into that mousetrap. And so being smarter than the inventer, we test the mousetrap to our shagrin. If the inventor had wanted us to stick our finger into that trap, the inventor would not have warned us to begin with.

But all of that is just words. What is real is that Jesus loved us so much as to give his very life for his friends. I can argue all day long logically, but not about love. Jesus put his body where his thoughts were … us.

 

[fisherman_carl]

God did not invent hell…we did.

Hell is where God isn’t. And since God contains all good, then there is no good outside of God. When we do not listen to him and separate ourselves from him, the only consequence there can be is that we have separated ourselves from all good … experiencing what is left … nothing but darkness, isolation, dissillusion, despair.

Sometimes the unfortunate idea is that we don’t need to heed the warning not to stick our finger into that mousetrap. And so being smarter than the inventer, we test the mousetrap to our shagrin. If the inventor had wanted us to stick our finger into that trap, the inventor would not have warned us to begin with.

But all of that is just words. What is real is that Jesus loved us so much as to give his very life for his friends. I can argue all day long logically, but not about love. Jesus put his body where his thoughts were … us.

That’s a good point. Did Jesus die for us out of logic or out of love?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

God did not invent hell…we did.

Hell is where God isn’t. And since God contains all good, then there is no good outside of God. When we do not listen to him and separate ourselves from him, the only consequence there can be is that we have separated ourselves from all good … experiencing what is left … nothing but darkness, isolation, dissillusion, despair.

Sometimes the unfortunate idea is that we don’t need to heed the warning not to stick our finger into that mousetrap. And so being smarter than the inventer, we test the mousetrap to our shagrin. If the inventor had wanted us to stick our finger into that trap, the inventor would not have warned us to begin with.

But all of that is just words. What is real is that Jesus loved us so much as to give his very life for his friends. I can argue all day long logically, but not about love. Jesus put his body where his thoughts were … us.

If God isn’t in hell then neither are we. We cannot exist “separate” from him. Apart from God there is, nothingness.

Love does not punish forever. In fact, think of how absurd this would be:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love punishes endlessly. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

Which of these things is not like the other?

 

[OneSheep]

Why are you so sure? Where does Scripture say they were unrepentant?

We can know that Jesus forgave the unrepentant because he said “for they do not know what they are doing.” If they were repentant, they would know what they were doing,and they would be clamoring to pull Him down from the cross.

David, only the most belligerent person cannot forgive the repentant. What big challenge is it to ask people to forgive the repentant? It is our nature to forgive the repentant. Can you see that what Jesus did was supernatural? Forgiveness of the unrepentant is beyond our nature, Jesus calls us to a life free of the confines of our very nature! Jesus shows us how to “be perfect as your Father is perfect” by forgiving the unrepentant. Indeed, forgiveness of the unrepentant is in itself a repentance.

Really? How do you know this? Scripture seems to require a condition.

14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
James 6

The way the priest who taught our bible study agrees with what we hear from Pope Francis, that God always forgives.

However, even though God always forgives, we cannot realize the freedom and wholeness from such forgiveness unless we forgive everyone else. If we forgive others conditionally, then we will forgive ourselves conditionally, and we will perceive that God only forgives conditionally. And since forgiveness is an act of love, we will perceive that God loves conditionally.

So, James 6:14-15 and the parable of the unforgiving servant are operating from human perception. It is a statement of fact: if we do not forgive unconditionally, we cannot perceive that God forgives unconditionally, even though God always forgives.

Thanks for your response.

Does that clarify the scripture?

 

[OneSheep]

Forgiveness is a virtue. Always.
And, actually, I think the Father will offer forgiveness, freely, even to the unrepentant.

But it will be refused, out of pride.

…

Well, let’s investigate that a bit, shall we? “Pride” is the desire for autonomy, dominance, control, and status. If a person says, “I reject your forgiveness, I do not need it, I stand on my own.” then he is operating from a position of ignorance, for without God there is no life, correct? He is the very core of our existence, the source of our autonomy and our unity. So, would the aware human refuse? I think not.

If so, why would he?

I think we are more or less on the same page.

I do think God can forgive most any sin - except the one I will not let him forgive.

Yes, I think that we are on the page, theologically speaking (I would not say “most any”, though, I would say “all” as in “God always forgives”.

It is our anthropology that may possibly be a bit different. For instance, if a person does not accept forgiveness, it is my observation that he is doing so in a state of ignorance. Is this your observation?

Thanks for your reply.

 

[fred_conty]

If God isn’t in hell then neither are we. We cannot exist “separate” from him. Apart from God there is, nothingness.

Love does not punish forever. In fact, think of how absurd this would be:

Which of these things is not like the other?

If God isn’t in hell …

No, God isn’t in hell in the way that you mean. He is there by his power. Our existence is not identical with God’s because we are separate beings. If we said we say we do not have a separate existence from God then that describes pantheism. And that is not the same as saying that we only exist thru Gods power sustaining us in existence.

As far as love punishing endlessly…that is true. But I would explain it like this.
A person loves himself so much that he doesn’t consider others sufficiently but only himself. So he continues in that state for all eternity when he dies. And so his love for himself punishes himself endlessly. He does not see that the only real love that will satisfy him is God’s. So he sinks of his own volition to the level he has made for himself.

The reason Jesus suffered so much and died from crucifixion is to demonstrate how much he loves us. He lowered himself for our sake and did not cling to his honor in order that we might understand his love for us. He could have forgiven us our sins without this, but then would we understand just how great his love is for us with out his passion and death. He loves us, not only to his last breath, but to our last breath.
After that He says thy will be done…for everyone.

 

[davidv]

We can know that Jesus forgave the unrepentant because he said “for they do not know what they are doing.” If they were repentant, they would know what they were doing,and they would be clamoring to pull Him down from the cross.

David, only the most belligerent person cannot forgive the repentant. What big challenge is it to ask people to forgive the repentant? It is our nature to forgive the repentant. Can you see that what Jesus did was supernatural? Forgiveness of the unrepentant is beyond our nature, Jesus calls us to a life free of the confines of our very nature! Jesus shows us how to “be perfect as your Father is perfect” by forgiving the unrepentant. Indeed, forgiveness of the unrepentant is in itself a repentance.

The way the priest who taught our bible study agrees with what we hear from Pope Francis, that God always forgives.

However, even though God always forgives, we cannot realize the freedom and wholeness from such forgiveness unless we forgive everyone else. If we forgive others conditionally, then we will forgive ourselves conditionally, and we will perceive that God only forgives conditionally. And since forgiveness is an act of love, we will perceive that God loves conditionally.

So, James 6:14-15 and the parable of the unforgiving servant are operating from human perception. It is a statement of fact: if we do not forgive unconditionally, we cannot perceive that God forgives unconditionally, even though God always forgives.

Thanks for your response.

Does that clarify the scripture?

I think you have missed several points. The real challenge is to become repentant.

 

[Michael19682]

James 6:14-15 and the parable of the unforgiving servant are operating from human perception. It is a statement of fact: if we do not forgive unconditionally, we cannot perceive that God forgives unconditionally, even though God always forgives.

It is a good answer except that it assumes human perception. We can still “know” God forgives someone, but not perceive it. How can you see forgiveness? Through various signs.
I think we say that God’s forgiveness is unconditional because it is for the person who repents in his heart. Once repentance takes a permanent root, the remainder is only a matter of time till repentance is acted on, felt, etc.
No one can speak with the same authority of Jesus about his Father in that we have all sinned and should be concerned with our own repentance.
What benefit would a sinner enjoy, what blessing is there in reprimanding a sinner while oneself is still a sinner in the same vein, “God will not forgive you unless you forgive me?” a form of spiritual extortion, I’d say, if it isn’t designed to circumvent repentance and/or frustrate the intentions of Jesus for one’s own pecuniary gain.

 

[Michael19682]

Unfortunately, the personal conditioning can be affected by what you are taught as a child/teenager. In a way you are correct though because I met several Jews through my wife who worked for a Jewish family. They were all very nice people and my schooling did not affect my relationship with them. I was more concerned about the way our Church portrayed Jews and caused them severe hardship in its history. Even during those times many Catholics took it upon themselves to help Jewish people with some of them being killed in WW2 for doing just that. It is wonderful today to see Catholics and other Christians very interested in their Jewish roots and supporting Israel.

At times I say idiomatically only that “I do not envy Jewish people” because they have been put in a very difficult cast by the Lord’s condemnation of their ancient leaders who, along with the force of sin, put Him to death. In thinking about your response I am reminded mysteriously by the Holy Spirit of the parable of the weeds. Whether a person is preserved for nourishment of the community or destroyed by fire is ultimately something realized at the end of time. On the one hand there is the generative worthy root, the remnant of Israel located in that political nation and throughout the diaspora; on the other hand, it would be an oversimplification to use that same name to describe everyone everywhere, Jewish or not. Your point about childhood conditioning is very important because it explains why the Son, the Messiah is rejected. Critically, reminders of that rejection have often a stronger harmful impact than the generosity that serves us all when people cooperate for the good of a corporally united humanity.
Yet in the parable, there is clearly two roots represented by two species. One nourishing, the other taking away nourishment for no purpose good to humanity. Indirect harm is still harm. One cannot disguise a drain on the harvest forever.
If I trace back the name to it’s root, since I am a new creation in Christ, I have to be careful as to what name I call my root. My root is the truth upon which my life was founded at Baptism, Jesus. It is neither Gentile nor Jew any longer. In fact, it is properly understood devoid of things like nationality; and even gender fails to convey the newness of spiritual moments.