Is eternal suffering pointless?

[davidv]

Such conversion, David, yes, involves conversion of the heart. We are to forgive everyone we resent. If our forgiveness is conditional, then we could hang onto resentment for the rest of our lives, for the condition may never be met. This would not be “interior conversion”, friend.

Jesus forgave, from the cross, unconditionally. The situation, and His words, are very clear, as were those of St. Stephen. As are those of Pope Francis.

This section also supports what I am saying.

This continues to support what I am saying. We can fear offending God, but God has already forgiven us. We do offend our conscience, and our conscience delivers punishment. If God is equated to our conscience, then we will fear that God is separating Himself from us.

David, I agree that there is a place for presenting the idea that God only forgives conditionally. Our conscience only loves and forgives us conditionally, and if God is equated with the conscience, which He is for young people, then the threats and instilling fear of a wrathful God may appeal to enough of their will to live beyond death (if they believe in it) that they may turn away from something terrible. However, the condition of such perception of God as wrathful is yet another conversion, another repentance to happen - later, but the sooner the better.

If unconditional forgiveness is a false teaching, then what do you have to say about this, David? Can you make these words change in some way, as you had Jesus only forgiving repentant people from the cross?

Pope Francis Verified account
‏@Pontifex

God is always waiting for us, he always understands us, he always forgives us.

You are perhaps going to say that Pope Francis did not clarify “If you are repentant” and/or he was referring only to “us confirmed Catholics”. No, David, always is always. Us is all of us. That is what my heart says.

David, why not just try it? Try forgiving someone who you hold something against who is not repentant. What do you have to lose?

Why are you assuming there is someone in need of my forgiveness?

 

[littlestsouls2]

Eternal hell isn’t just. A moral system that is predicated upon “dignity” rather than “harm” is precisely what the perpetrators of the worst atrocities in human history have used to excuse themselves. Indeed, hell would be far and away the worst atrocity ever committed, and here you are using the moral reasoning of slave-owners, Nazis, and the perpetrators of all genocides to justify it!

God cannot lie. If Jesus is God, Hell is eternal.

As this is not a thread about debating whether or not Jesus is the Son of God, I will not elaborate on this point.

Besides that, supposedly the sinners in eternal hell continue sinning forever, heaping up offenses against God’s dignity, but with the same punishment? Certainly this is unjust. Unless you suppose that God’s punishments in hell increase in intensity into infinity as the sinners continue to sin. So, in this case, God is enabling and encouraging the infinite proliferation of outrageous sin against himself.

I submit to you that God is far wiser than this!

My understanding is that the sins committed in Hell do not increase the guilt of the damned, because they lack the means to avoid sin. St. Alphonsus says that “… if the sinner was quite abandoned by grace, either his sins afterwards committed could no longer be imputed to him, or he would be under an obligation to do that which he had no power to fulfil…" And St. Augustine says: “No one sins in that which can by no means be avoided.”

We cannot harm God at all. He punishes us because we harm others and ourselves. We can do only finite harm to others but I do think we can do permanent (but finite) harm to ourselves. We cannot therefore deserve infinite punishment.

I disagree. The purpose of justice is primarily to restore moral order.

God’s eternal nature is in no way a sufficient explanation for eternal hell, especially when there are many good reasons to suppose eternal hell is in tension with God’s other attributes like goodness, justice, wisdom, and power. In fact, God’s eternal nature doesn’t explain anything at all, since we know nothing about it.

Can you please provide one good reason.

We know that God is eternal; we do not have wrap our heads around eternity itself.

OK I’ll take a look. No, I have not read any writings of “victim souls.” I have read Teresa of Avila, Therese of Lisieux, Faustina, and many others. I’m not sure if they count as “victim souls.”

A victim soul is one who accepts particularly great sufferings for the salvation of souls. St. Faustina definitely falls into this category.

Some other victim souls that I love reading about are:

• St. Gemma Galgani
• Sr. Benigna Consolata
• Sr. Josefa Menendez
• St. Lydwine of Schiedam

There are many, many others.

Pax!

 

[fred_conty]

New Thought Experiment For This Thread

Imagine God created a universe where every single human person was created in eternal hell.

God, knowing all, knew that each person would freely choose to sin mortally if given the chance, so he “cut to the chase” and created all human beings in hell in the first place. He did this purely to satisfy his justice. Even though all those people never actually sinned, God’s foreknowledge is infallible, so it is most just for him to punish them forever for sins he has eternally known infallibly they would have done.

Do you think God would still be “good” in this case? Why or why not? I will use arguments from this thread (verbatim if possible) to counter you if you say “no.”

If you say “yes” then we’re done here, because it has become obvious we’re talking about nonsense. :whacky:

That would be condemning the person before the fact. Even our own poor justice system doesn’t do that.

 

[Aloysium]

Foreknowledge is a dangerous slippery slope, as you can see…
If you posit that God knows the future, then that future is set in stone, regardless of any perceived free will. What is know to come to happen, will happen for sure.

Unless you posit that God knows all possible (infinite?) futures as well and sees a few disappearing as soon as the relevant events unfold.

The past, present and future - the entire universe appears to hinge on this moment, but it does so in the same manner that the earth, oneself actually, appears at the centre of everything that happens. Your rational soul, the true you who perceives and understands the universe, who comes up with the very ideas you here bring up, that you who sits in your personal now, connects with the universe of time and space. Through your actions, you are participating in the bringing of yourself into existence as the person you want to be. The judgement is inherent in who you are. You are deciding who you are as an eternal being, whether on not there is life after death. There is a reality, whether acknowledged or hidden from others and oneself. The truth is that God is here in this moment to guide you in your choice, but those moral choices are yours alone to make. While here with us, God is also everywhere. So, in His transcendent holiness, He knows all the choices, written in eternity, by yourself in every here and now wherein you choose and carry out an action. There are possibilities, you decide - Saint or sinner.

 

[OneSheep]

Why are you assuming there is someone in need of my forgiveness?

It is likely, because everyone eventually runs into a situation where a person does something we resent, yet the violator is unrepentant.

It would have to be close to miraculous if you have not experienced such a situation. So, I am assuming that you have experienced this, yet you seemed to be saying that there is something wrong with forgiving an unrepentant person. So, assuming that you have avoided the “wrong” of forgiving an unrepentant person, I asked if you might give it a try.

Oops! I must have presumed incorrectly? If so, you have either forgiven the unrepentant people you have held something against, or like I said, you have never experienced this situation. Which of these is the case?

 

[arte]

So what you’re now saying is that people commit mortal sins and feel justified in committing them because they don’t sufficiently experience the love of God in their lives. But there are many atheists who do in fact feel genuinely sorry for any grave offenses they may have committed against their neighbour and would like to take back what they did.

You have misread my post. If you look at what I wrote in bold, you will see what I am trying to put across. I did not say that people would feel justified in committing mortal sins because they don’t sufficiently experience the love of God in their lives. Furthermore, in every post I have written about God’s justice, **I have included punishment for the sinner. **I agree that many atheists feel sorry for any grave offences against their neighbour and would like to take back what they did. I would add that many would also go to their neighbour and apologise for what they have done and make amends.
Good Fella;13338311:

The problem is that the souls which are consigned to Hell are not overwhelmed with God’s love in a positive way, since they have been denied the Beatific Vision. Instead of praising God, they blaspheme Him for the suffering they must endure for actions they still feel justified in having committed. Obstinacy is an unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself said that this sin cannot be forgiven in this life or the next.The condition of the soul at the moment of death is forever fixed.

"The problem is that the souls which are consigned to Hell are not overwhelmed with God’s love in a positive way, **since they have been denied the Beatific Vision”. Therein lays the whole crux of the problem **and you have come to that conclusion yourself. Put aside all Church/religious dogma including the Bible; both the Old and New Testaments. Just approach the situation using your own human instincts and nothing else. On the one hand we have God who is capable of creating a universe and is full of love, justice, mercy and forgiveness. On the other hand you have us who are puny in every way in comparison to God. If meeting God, experiencing the Beatific Vision, causes everyone no matter how misguided or evil to repent of their sins and sing God’s praises, what do you think should happen?

 

[OneSheep]

Foreknowledge is a dangerous slippery slope, as you can see…
If you posit that God knows the future, then that future is set in stone, regardless of any perceived free will. What is know to come to happen, will happen for sure.

Unless you posit that God knows all possible (infinite?) futures as well and sees a few disappearing as soon as the relevant events unfold.

FWIW:

If you can imagine that for believers God looks at time the way that one looks at space, that may help clarify. Knowledge of future is independent of determination, unless we are talking about that weird particle stuff.

We “sort of” have free will, our choices are limited to the amount of awareness we have, and our human nature (concupiscence) has a way of influencing our decisions such that we have strong biases toward choices which meets our needs.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

God cannot lie. If Jesus is God, Hell is eternal.

As this is not a thread about debating whether or not Jesus is the Son of God, I will not elaborate on this point.

Fair enough. I do not believe Jesus taught this, and I do not believe he was God in any way.

My understanding is that the sins committed in Hell do not increase the guilt of the damned, because they lack the means to avoid sin. St. Alphonsus says that “… if the sinner was quite abandoned by grace, either his sins afterwards committed could no longer be imputed to him, or he would be under an obligation to do that which he had no power to fulfil…" And St. Augustine says: “No one sins in that which can by no means be avoided.”

Right, those who do not have free will cannot be morally guilty for their acts. This is obvious. Oh wait, that isn’t quite what you mean right? You mean that they lack grace and therefore can’t avoid sin. But hold on…if we can’t avoid sin without grace, and our natural state is lacking grace due to original sin…then how can we be guilty of anything at all unless God arbitrarily assigns guilt to us for merely existing?

Further, if the sinners in hell do not continue to sin, then how can they deserve continuous punishment? This was one of two possible justifications for continuous punishment.

I disagree. The purpose of justice is primarily to restore moral order.

And precisely how does endless punishment restore “moral order?”

Can you please provide one good reason.

A loving father does not endlessly punish his own children.
A wise father does not knowingly create those who will be damned forever.
A good father does not create a hyper-intelligent evil demon and pretend to allow him to run amok tormenting and deceiving his other children.
An honest father doesn’t say “I want all my children to be saved” while damning most of them.
A just father does not consider his children guilty and deserving of endless punishment based on the sins of their ancestors.

We know that God is eternal; we do not have wrap our heads around eternity itself.

A victim soul is one who accepts particularly great sufferings for the salvation of souls. St. Faustina definitely falls into this category.

Some other victim souls that I love reading about are:

• St. Gemma Galgani
• Sr. Benigna Consolata
• Sr. Josefa Menendez
• St. Lydwine of Schiedam

There are many, many others.

Pax!

I went to the “victim souls” website and perused it for a while. I’m sorry, but all these kinds of stories strike me as the product of mental illness and superstition! There seems to be an odd obsession with blood, gore, Mary, tribalism, sex, and satan/demons. It seems like there is always an undue reverence for satan, an undue loathing/desire for sex, and an undue devotion to Mary in the same people, and I detect it strongly here.

The ancient pagans were also consumed with interest in magic, fortune-telling, the opposition of the feminine and masculine in the deities, sex between gods/demi-gods/spirits and "virgins,"etc. It’s all vanity and superstition. There is something very twisted at the center of this, a failure to recognize the total unopposed omnipotence of the one true God. Also I detect some sublimated desire for sexual gratification and revenge or some admixture of both. I don’t think it is mentally healthy to dwell on these kinds of things. We would do well to think about God rather than all of this extraneous stuff.

And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth below; there is none else.

• Deuteronomy 4:39.

God alone rules this world. No one else can hurt you. Nothing else has any power apart from him. Put your faith in him alone and he will deliver you from your enemies, real or imaginary.

 

[pocaracas]

FWIW:

If you can imagine that for believers God looks at time the way that one looks at space, that may help clarify. Knowledge of future is independent of determination, unless we are talking about that weird particle stuff.

We “sort of” have free will, our choices are limited to the amount of awareness we have, and our human nature (concupiscence) has a way of influencing our decisions such that we have strong biases toward choices which meets our needs.

If we know the future, then act in some way that changes it and something different happens, then what did we know? Certainly not the future.

 

[Aloysium]

If we know the future, then act in some way that changes it and something different happens, then what did we know? Certainly not the future.

God can be said to know the future with respect to His relationship with each of us in our present moment, as our Father.
All time is present for Him as its creator.
We, with our free will, are part of that creation, into which He was incarnated.

Right now you can choose to go in a variety of directions.
Once chosen, they are set in stone.
At the end of time, all will be revealed as it happened, as we chose it to happen.

 

[OneSheep]

If we know the future, then act in some way that changes it and something different happens, then what did we know? Certainly not the future.

Let’s say a little bird tells me exactly how you are going to answer this post, because the little bird knows what your decision is going to be. Did the little bird determine your answer, no. The little bird sees the future like she sees space, all at once, all in front of her. If something different was going to happen, the bird would already know it. The “different thing” would be the future that the little bird knows. But knowing it still does not determine the act, the knowing only sees the act in the future like it sees a tree in space. Am I missing something?

That the knowing actually determines is an addition. Knowing can truly be independent of determination.

In the context of Christian belief, God already knew all the really lousy decisions we were going to make and all the suffering that would happen before He hit the “create” button. In some people’s view, he forgave all of it before he hit the button. In another view He did not forgive, he knew that he would get angry and resentful every time someone sinned, and would only forgive if Jesus dies for them, the person was sorry and repentant, etc.

 

[pocaracas]

Let’s say a little bird tells me exactly how you are going to answer this post, because the little bird knows what your decision is going to be. Did the little bird determine your answer, no. The little bird sees the future like she sees space, all at once, all in front of her. If something different was going to happen, the bird would already know it. The “different thing” would be the future that the little bird knows. But knowing it still does not determine the act, the knowing only sees the act in the future like it sees a tree in space. Am I missing something?

That the knowing actually determines is an addition. Knowing can truly be independent of determination.

In the context of Christian belief, God already knew all the really lousy decisions we were going to make and all the suffering that would happen before He hit the “create” button. In some people’s view, he forgave all of it before he hit the button. In another view He did not forgive, he knew that he would get angry and resentful every time someone sinned, and would only forgive if Jesus dies for them, the person was sorry and repentant, etc.

Indeed, knowing can be independent from determination.
But, from the point of view of a creator God… he’s sort of the guy that actually pre-determined it all, isn’t he?

 

[OneSheep]

Indeed, knowing can be independent from determination.
But, from the point of view of a creator God… he’s sort of the guy that actually pre-determined it all, isn’t he?

Sounds too boring.

“Free will” is Catholic doctrine, and even though there are limitations in awareness affecting choices, we do have “free will” within those parameters.

Imagine that you have set up one of these A.I. experiments with a bunch of “individuals” who can learn. You have programmed the drives, emotions, etc. (over time) and just know that the outcome is all going to be okay. The individuals all have some degree of autonomy, otherwise its just creative play. All the suffering has to serve in some way toward the cognitive evolution of the species.

I am not necessarily “speaking for the Church” on this stuff, there is a lot of variation on what “omniscience” means. I find myself tweaking “omnipotent” when it seems to conflict with “omnibenevolent”.

Do you see what I mean, we are individuals, yet something ties us, we are born unaware, but we learn as individuals and as a species. It is all very mysterious. To me, what can be a more common mindset of all humanity than a sense of awe? Oh, but speaking of awe, there is Physics… but that is your department.

 

[littlestsouls2]

@PumpkinCookie:

Right, those who do not have free will cannot be morally guilty for their acts. This is obvious. Oh wait, that isn’t quite what you mean right? You mean that they lack grace and therefore can’t avoid sin. But hold on…if we can’t avoid sin without grace, and our natural state is lacking grace due to original sin…then how can we be guilty of anything at all unless God arbitrarily assigns guilt to us for merely existing?

Your first statement was correct. We are all given actual grace. The quotes from St. Alphonsus and St. Augustine still stand.

Further, if the sinners in hell do not continue to sin, then how can they deserve continuous punishment? This was one of two possible justifications for continuous punishment.

Sin offends an infinitely perfect God, so its malice is immeasurable. “God pardons sin; but He cannot pardon the will or the determination to sin.” (St. Alphonsus). “The wicked only put an end to sinning because their life came to an end: they would indeed have wished to live forever, that they might continue in sin forever for they desire rather to sin than to live.” (St. Gregory). “For since their will to sin is everlasting, their torment shall also be everlasting” (Jesus to St. Bridget); “my Son, who sees the heart, counts that as a deed.” (Our Lady to St. Bridget).

There is no obligation to accept these revelations as inspired, but they complement the teachings of the Doctors of the Church, so I thought it was worth adding them.

And precisely how does endless punishment restore “moral order?”

Justice. Hell is like prison, but obviously much worse.

A loving father does not endlessly punish his own children.
A wise father does not knowingly create those who will be damned forever.
A good father does not create a hyper-intelligent evil demon and pretend to allow him to run amok tormenting and deceiving his other children.
An honest father doesn’t say “I want all my children to be saved” while damning most of them.
A just father does not consider his children guilty and deserving of endless punishment based on the sins of their ancestors.

We will be saved if we sincerely seek God, making use of the means given to us as individuals. None can blame God if they are not saved. ‘For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.’ (Isaiah 55:9).

I went to the “victim souls” website and perused it for a while. I’m sorry, but all these kinds of stories strike me as the product of mental illness and superstition! There seems to be an odd obsession with blood, gore, Mary, tribalism, sex, and satan/demons. It seems like there is always an undue reverence for satan, an undue loathing/desire for sex, and an undue devotion to Mary in the same people, and I detect it strongly here.

I disagree on all counts.

archive.org/details/louiselateauofbo00lefe

The ancient pagans were also consumed with interest in magic, fortune-telling, the opposition of the feminine and masculine in the deities, sex between gods/demi-gods/spirits and "virgins,"etc. It’s all vanity and superstition. There is something very twisted at the center of this, a failure to recognize the total unopposed omnipotence of the one true God. Also I detect some sublimated desire for sexual gratification and revenge or some admixture of both. I don’t think it is mentally healthy to dwell on these kinds of things. We would do well to think about God rather than all of this extraneous stuff.

• Deuteronomy 4:39.

No authentic mystic seeks such things. In fact, a large number of Saints asked God to spare them from visions, stigmata etc.

 

[arte]

If that was all I was … a sane normal rational human being … I would agree.
But that is not all I am. I’m a supernatural human being who believes in Jesus Christ and I am also a child of my Father in heaven whom I trust. And so I see things as they tell me to see them. And Jesus said in several places that hell is eternal. And since Jesus said it, and his church on earth has said it, I am more sure about that than I am about my own name.

You are not a supernatural being. You are a human being just like the rest of us. I am a Christian Universalist on hell; all will be saved eventually. Eternal punishment is pointless. With the exception of being a fear factor, it serves no other purpose whatsoever. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in **humane finite punishment **in the afterlife but not inhumane punishment and not eternal punishment. By “and so I see things as they tell me to see them”, I believe you mean the Bible. Like all religious books, the Bible is not inerrant. There are several parts of the Old Testament that are quite frankly ungodly. They could not have been committed by or relayed by God to a prophet. There are also several contradictions in the Bible. The Gospel writers portray Jesus as a scripturally literate 1st century Jewish male who was steeped in the scripture and the culture – He was localized in a time and place. Notwithstanding the above, the Bible especially the New Testament has a wealth of moral teaching for all of humanity. Jesus is a moral compass for everybody.

And you are right again when you said that no one chooses to be in hell. But they did choose something that put them there. All our actions have consequences. we chose to act, and the consequence sticks with it like glue on our fingers.

Whatever their choice, no one deserves to be punished for an eternity. The glue (sin) can eventually be washed off our fingers.

Cain gave up his birthright for a mess of pottage, whatever that was. What sane normal rational human being would do such a thing? But there it is. And there is the consequence. How many people choose to go to prison? What sane normal rational human being would choose such a thing? But doing the crime means doing the time…ask any sane normal rational human being.

The majority of the people in prison are not normal rational people. This is borne out by the fact that the prison population is a very small percentage of the population as a whole. The US has more prisoners than any other developed couuntry in the World standing at 0.7% of the US population. In Germany it is 0.08%. “But doing the crime means doing the time…ask any sane normal rational human being”. * You are proving my point on eternal punishment in hell in your sentence. Doing the crime does mean doing the time; the time is finite. You will see:* “you do the crime you do the time”,** in many of my posts.

Why do I believe that anyone can go to hell? My “sane normal rational human being” side of me would throw it out. But I have chosen to be an “insame unnormal irrational supernatural being”, and so I believe it.

You should listen more to the sane part of your mind and not the insane part.

Jesus came not just to die for us, but to teach us…not just about the wonderful things, but about what we need to know to survive. He has told us things we would never have figured out by being “sane normal rational human beings”. We have to be above that now and trust him. And after that trust comes knowledge of him and then love of him. And once we really love him, then we know that if anyone ignores what he said, that Jesus will offer them his mercy first, and then if rejected, his justice.

He did not come down on earth and die in a horrible way because he had nothing better to do one afternoon. He will always be there for anyone who takes their hands away from their ears.

Who cares about being “sane normal rational human beings” when we know better.

The truth is: sane normal rational human beings understand what the real truth is. I love Jesus and I know He loves me and everyone regardless of who they are and what they do. God is love above anything else. Eternal punishment is not love, mercy, justice or forgiveness. Therefore it is not God. We cannot say that the Gospel is the Good News if it has eternal punishment. I will continue to be a Christian but will never believe in hell.

 

[Aloysium]

You are not a supernatural being. You are a human being just like the rest of us. I am a Christian Universalist on hell; all will be saved eventually. Eternal punishment is pointless. With the exception of being a fear factor, it serves no other purpose. . . Whatever their choice, no one deserves to be punished for an eternity. The glue (sin) can eventually be washed off our fingers. . . I love Jesus and I know He loves me and everyone regardless of who they are and what they do. God is love above anything else. Eternal punishment is not love, mercy, justice or forgiveness. Therefore it is not God. We cannot say that the Gospel is the Good News if it has eternal punishment. I will continue to be a Christian but will never believe in hell.

You are free to believe whatever you want.
As you say, you love Jesus and others, which is the entire point of all this.
The fact is that revealed truth clearly states there is hell.
If there were no hell, there would be no need to create the possibility simply to scare people.
You wouldn’t be here arguing about it because, not much would really matter.
We would be all heaven-bound; we would be all free to do what we will because the final truth of this world would be that it is nothing but a bad dream.
Many people believe this.
But this is real. What we do is a use or misuse of the existence God gives us.
Nothing that is not love can be in heaven.
Sin’s place in eternity is at the receiving end of justice.
God loves us all; and when we sin, it is an affront to His gift.
Ultimately, we must trust in God.
What is important is not maintaining a positive image of Him or His church, but to deepen our relationship with Him.

 

[987mk]

Most of us, Catholics included will end up in hell.

So don’t worry about it, it is all part of Gods plan.

 

[fred_conty]

Luke 16:19—
There was a rich man who used to dress in purple and fine linen and feast magnificently every day. And at his gate there lay a poor man called Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to fill himself with the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even came and licked his sores. Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man died and was buried.

In his torment in Hades he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off with Lazarus in his bosom. So he cried out, "Father Abraham, pity me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in agony in the flames. My son, Abraham replied, remember that during your life good things came your way, just as bad things came the way of Lazarus. Now he is being conforted here while you are in agony. But that is not all; between us and you a great gulf has been fixed, to stop anyone, if he wanted to, crossing from our side to yours, and to stop any crossing from your side to ours.

The rich man replied, Father, I beg you then to send Lazarus to my father’s house, since I have five brothers, to give them warning so that they do not come to this place of torment too. They have Moses and the prophets, said Abraham, let them listen to them. Ah no, father Abraham, said the rich man, but if someone comes to them from the dead, they will repent. Then Abraham said to him, If they will not listen either to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead.

The footnote in the Jerusalem Bible says that the “great gulf” means permanent.
And the last part “they will not be convinced” means just that.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

The footnote in the Jerusalem Bible says that the “great gulf” means permanent.
And the last part “they will not be convinced” means just that.

I believe this story supports my opinion and contradicts the eternal hell hypothesis for the following reasons:

1. The Rich Man is described as being in “Hades” (a concept foreign to Jews of the time but familiar to a Greek readership) because he has failed to help Lazarus. He is being punished for the harm and suffering he failed to alleviate. Jesus (Abraham) even highlights the proportionality: the Rich Man had what was good during life and failed to share it, and Lazarus got what was bad and is now being compensated. The “badness” and “goodness” are not endless however.
2. The idea that the “gulf” implies permanence is an opinion. I don’t have that opinion. The gulf could simply mean that those in heaven cannot alleviate the sufferings of those in hell because the suffering is necessary to restore the moral goodness of the person in hell and compensate for injustice. Further, those in hell cannot harm those in heaven. Heaven and hell are both temporary places, in my opinion. There will be no “gulf” in the World To Come.
3. Notice that Abraham does not say that the Rich Man is being punished permanently because he offended the infinite dignity of God, but rather because he selfishly failed to help the poor man living on his doorstep!
4. Notice Abraham says the way to avoid hell is to listen to Moses and the Prophets who both taught that it is obedience to the Torah and not belief in Jesus as God which is our path to life.

Further, isn’t it possible this parable isn’t meant to teach about the nature of hell, but rather to show that failing to help others is just as wrong as actually harming them? Couldn’t the point be that God will “make things right” by compensating the poor and punishing the selfish?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Most of us, Catholics included will end up in hell.

So don’t worry about it, it is all part of Gods plan.

God is not evil! The idea that most of humanity is doomed to endless suffering is the ghoulish fantasy superstition and mental/spiritual illness, not God’s revelation.