Is eternal suffering pointless?

[PumpkinCookie]

@PumpkinCookie:
Your first statement was correct. We are all given actual grace. The quotes from St. Alphonsus and St. Augustine still stand.

Does actual grace (apart from sacraments) remove original sin? If yes, why do we need the church? If no, aren’t most people hell-bound? If they’re not mostly hell-bound just for having been born a “sinner,” why not? Is it because God can save us by extraordinary grace of some kind? If so, why doesn’t he do this for everyone? If they are mostly hell-bound, why call God good? Seriously, how can we understand the word “good” if it includes the possibility of torturing most of one’s children, or supporting their self-torture, forever?

Isn’t the theology of grace unnecessarily complicated? Doesn’t the principle of economy tell us that it is much more likely we have free will and that God punishes us in proportion to our evil and rewards in proportion to good? Why do we need to posit unverifiable and incoherent concepts like grace when something much more simple can explain our situation?

Sin offends an infinitely perfect God, so its malice is immeasurable. “God pardons sin; but He cannot pardon the will or the determination to sin.” (St. Alphonsus). “The wicked only put an end to sinning because their life came to an end: they would indeed have wished to live forever, that they might continue in sin forever for they desire rather to sin than to live.” (St. Gregory). “For since their will to sin is everlasting, their torment shall also be everlasting” (Jesus to St. Bridget); “my Son, who sees the heart, counts that as a deed.” (Our Lady to St. Bridget).

There is no obligation to accept these revelations as inspired, but they complement the teachings of the Doctors of the Church, so I thought it was worth adding them.

This actually fits in perfectly with my thought experiment. If God knows in the “eternal now” that sinners would continue to sin if given the chance, then why doesn’t he just create them in hell in the first place? It would be much more efficient and there would be less suffering (caused by sinners on earth). Is there a good reason to suppose the “will to sin is everlasting” for any reason other than the fact that God has made it so? If our wills are “frozen” in the afterlife, it is because God has forced them to be, is it not? This just highlights the pointlessness of hell. You are supporting the argument that God desires damnation for its own sake. How can you not consider that to be profoundly evil?

On earth, we torture others because we want them to give us information or we want to break their wills in some manner. You seem to be saying God tortures us forever for no discernible reason, since he fixes our wills and remains offended based on the orientation of the wills he fixed in the first place, forever. God is much wiser than this!

I am beginning to formulate a new theory, just bear with me. I think true, faithful Catholics dislike God and think he is somewhat evil, though to admit that would create unbearable cognitive dissonance. This explains the devotion to Jesus, Mary, and the pantheon of saints. Mary is sad about hell, Jesus weeps for sinners, the saints are approachable and kind…but God…wow there is no way you guys want anything to do with him. For good reason (based on these beliefs)!

Justice. Hell is like prison, but obviously much worse.

Well, if justice is proportional to dignity rather than harm, then hell could never be bad enough could it? So, justice can’t be the “point” even if it is predicated upon “infinite dignity.” Arte has pointed this out as well. Next you’ll tell me that this outrageous deficit of justice is actually God’s “mercy” which is the same thing as justice.

We will be saved if we sincerely seek God, making use of the means given to us as individuals. None can blame God if they are not saved. ‘For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.’ (Isaiah 55:9).

To be fair, this quote could be used to justify any belief at all, no matter how unreasonable. I don’t think this statement means what many Christians seem to think it means. Couldn’t it mean that God is morally superior to us? Couldn’t it mean that God is omniscient? Why does it have to mean that God is contradictory or that we should accept any doctrine whatsoever if it is claimed to be of God?

I disagree on all counts.
archive.org/details/louiselateauofbo00lefe

The testimony of 19th century doctors is questionable today is it not? Why has no honest to goodness repeating miracle been verified scientifically with modern methods?

No authentic mystic seeks such things. In fact, a large number of Saints asked God to spare them from visions, stigmata etc.

You honestly detect no obsession with sublimated sexual desire (projected onto Jesus/demons), the demonic, the divine feminine, gore, blood and guts, sorcery, and prophecy? Granted, these may be attributes of humanity in general. But it seems as if this whole “neighborhood” of Catholicism is just ancient paganism manifested in a more modern religion.

I’m not going to say more about this because I don’t want to offend you. In my experience, most of the people who are into this are sweet elderly ladies who just love Mary like a friend. If that describes you, please don’t be offended. The other group of people who are into this, in my experience, and stated with as much diplomacy as I can assemble, are suffering from one or more mental illnesses. I pray that God will relieve the tremendous suffering of mental illness for all people!

 

[Protestor]

I will go one further eternal suffering is evil and unjust.
I only skimmed the first 2 pages but it seemed to me that PumpkinCookie brought up valid points against InNomiWhatever. Were these every addressed properly because from what I saw they were not? Now I understand that this mans views may not be exactly the views of all the catholics on this site, but his views did seem along the same thread as the other Catholics.
I have a question about this are there any official church statements on hell or is this whole subject just conjecture. Nvrmnd I did some digging. Not enough though because the footnotes are as long the actual text itself.

From this below account of I maintain my first sentence is true.
"1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596 At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597

592 Cf. 2 Tim 1:9-10. 593 Cf. Lk 16:22; 23:43; Mt 16:26; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 9:27; 12:23. 594 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274)S 857-858; Council of Florence (1439)S 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563)S 1820. 595 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)S 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334)S 990 596 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)S 1002. 597 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64."

As always when I enter a thread this long if these question have already been asked and answered pls point my to the relevant posts.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I understand that this mans views may not be exactly the views of all the catholics on this site, but his views did seem along the same thread as the other Catholics. . . .

**"1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596 At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597
**

As always when I enter a thread this long if these question have already been asked and answered pls point my to the relevant posts.

The same things come up over and over and over and over and over.
These here are just the opinions of random internet denizens.
You will read posts of people who claim to be Catholics but are very far from it in terms of their comprehension and/or acceptance of the faith.
If one wants to know the truth as it is understood by the Catholic Church, one should do as you did.
Go to the source, and the Catechism (vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM) is a very good start.

 

[tonyrey]

I will go one further eternal suffering is evil and unjust.

How can be eternal suffering be evil and unjust if it is self-inflicted?

Hell is not a trap but a choice! And it has its compensations: freedom without obligations of any description…

 

[Protestor]

How can be eternal suffering be evil and unjust if it is self-inflicted? Hell is not a trap but a choice! And it has its compensations: freedom without obligations of any description…

The entire concept of eternal suffering is evil, but this is not an answer to your question. I am not going to answer your first question because my answer is irrelevant to anything about this subject and it is poorly formed. Your second sentence is disputable. I wish I knew what your last sentence meant.

 

[Protestor]

Sin offends an infinitely perfect God, so its malice is immeasurable. “God pardons sin; but He cannot pardon the will or the determination to sin.” (St. Alphonsus). “The wicked only put an end to sinning because their life came to an end: they would indeed have wished to live forever, that they might continue in sin forever for they desire rather to sin than to live.” (St. Gregory). “For since their will to sin is everlasting, their torment shall also be everlasting” (Jesus to St. Bridget)

I have a question about your “” from Jesus to St. Bridget. Do you actually think Jesus said this like this is a scriptural quote?

 

[Aloysium]

The entire concept of eternal suffering is evil . . .

If the concept expresses the truth, it is not evil.
If it is a lie, then it would be.

Unfortunately, words like eternal are difficult to grasp by beings existing in time.
To get it, one must connect with the eternal within oneself.

 

[littlestsouls2]

@PumpkinCookie

Does actual grace (apart from sacraments) remove original sin? If yes, why do we need the church? If no, aren’t most people hell-bound? If they’re not mostly hell-bound just for having been born a “sinner,” why not? Is it because God can save us by extraordinary grace of some kind? If so, why doesn’t he do this for everyone? If they are mostly hell-bound, why call God good? Seriously, how can we understand the word “good” if it includes the possibility of torturing most of one’s children, or supporting their self-torture, forever?

Firstly, thanks for your responses. This will be my last in this thread for the time being.

*Sanctifying grace * alone removes original sin. We are only lost through mortal sin. Whatever the ultimate fate of unbaptised infants, the Church teaches that they do not suffer positive punishments, so called.

Isn’t the theology of grace unnecessarily complicated? Doesn’t the principle of economy tell us that it is much more likely we have free will and that God punishes us in proportion to our evil and rewards in proportion to good? Why do we need to posit unverifiable and incoherent concepts like grace when something much more simple can explain our situation?

Free will is unverifiable, too. Grace elevates our fallen nature.

This actually fits in perfectly with my thought experiment. If God knows in the “eternal now” that sinners would continue to sin if given the chance, then why doesn’t he just create them in hell in the first place? It would be much more efficient and there would be less suffering (caused by sinners on earth). Is there a good reason to suppose the “will to sin is everlasting” for any reason other than the fact that God has made it so? If our wills are “frozen” in the afterlife, it is because God has forced them to be, is it not? This just highlights the pointlessness of hell. You are supporting the argument that God desires damnation for its own sake. How can you not consider that to be profoundly evil?

If they were created in Hell, they would be blameless, and therefore wouldn’t deserve Hell.

‘But executing thy judgments by degrees thou gavest them place of repentance, not being ignorant that they were a wicked generation, and their malice natural, and that their thought could never be changed.’ (Wisdom 12:10)

On earth, we torture others because we want them to give us information or we want to break their wills in some manner. You seem to be saying God tortures us forever for no discernible reason, since he fixes our wills and remains offended based on the orientation of the wills he fixed in the first place, forever. God is much wiser than this!

God does not *positively *harden our hearts; by justly withdrawing His grace from us, our wills are fixed in the evil that we have chosen.

I am beginning to formulate a new theory, just bear with me. I think true, faithful Catholics dislike God and think he is somewhat evil, though to admit that would create unbearable cognitive dissonance. This explains the devotion to Jesus, Mary, and the pantheon of saints. Mary is sad about hell, Jesus weeps for sinners, the saints are approachable and kind…but God…wow there is no way you guys want anything to do with him. For good reason (based on these beliefs)!

St. Margaret Mary: “O my Saviour, wreak all your wrath on me, and efface my name from the book of life rather than lose those souls that have cost you so dear.”

Well, if justice is proportional to dignity rather than harm, then hell could never be bad enough could it? So, justice can’t be the “point” even if it is predicated upon “infinite dignity.” Arte has pointed this out as well. Next you’ll tell me that this outrageous deficit of justice is actually God’s “mercy” which is the same thing as justice.

As finite creatures, we cannot even in principle suffer infinitely. If the damned suffer less than they deserve (which is the belief of many Saints), it is a mercy.

Justice isn’t identical to mercy; it is one with mercy - similar to the unity of and distinction between the Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity.

To be fair, this quote could be used to justify any belief at all, no matter how unreasonable. I don’t think this statement means what many Christians seem to think it means. Couldn’t it mean that God is morally superior to us? Couldn’t it mean that God is omniscient? Why does it have to mean that God is contradictory or that we should accept any doctrine whatsoever if it is claimed to be of God?

True. But here I am using it to defend the revelation of Jesus, and the teaching of His Church.

The testimony of 19th century doctors is questionable today is it not? Why has no honest to goodness repeating miracle been verified scientifically with modern methods?

A bit, like most testimony.

I think there are a few Eucharistic miracles that have been tested in modern times, but I’m very sketchy on the details. There might be some info here:
miraclesofthechurch.com/

 

[littlestsouls2]

CONT…

You honestly detect no obsession with sublimated sexual desire (projected onto Jesus/demons), the demonic, the divine feminine, gore, blood and guts, sorcery, and prophecy? Granted, these may be attributes of humanity in general. But it seems as if this whole “neighborhood” of Catholicism is just ancient paganism manifested in a more modern religion.

It is the word “obsession” that I objected to. These souls wanted nothing more than to love God and souls. Everything else was secondary.

I’m not going to say more about this because I don’t want to offend you. In my experience, most of the people who are into this are sweet elderly ladies who just love Mary like a friend. If that describes you, please don’t be offended. The other group of people who are into this, in my experience, and stated with as much diplomacy as I can assemble, are suffering from one or more mental illnesses. I pray that God will relieve the tremendous suffering of mental illness for all people!

I’m a young male of sound mind. But that is a self-diagnosis, so who knows?!

Take care.

 

[littlestsouls2]

I have a question about your “” from Jesus to St. Bridget. Do you actually think Jesus said this like this is a scriptural quote?

I believe that it was revealed to her, perhaps by means of a locution. I don’t give it as much weight as Scripture, and I don’t accept anything novel or contradictory.

 

[jmcrae]

If we know the future, then act in some way that changes it and something different happens, then what did we know? Certainly not the future.

Which is exactly why God can’t change the fate of those whom He knows will go to Hell. Changing their fate means that He was not in fact seeing their fate to begin with, resulting in a time loop.

 

[arte]

You are free to believe whatever you want.
As you say, you love Jesus and others, which is the entire point of all this.
The fact is that revealed truth clearly states there is hell.
If there were no hell, there would be no need to create the possibility simply to scare people.
You wouldn’t be here arguing about it because, not much would really matter.
We would be all heaven-bound; we would be all free to do what we will because the final truth of this world would be that it is nothing but a bad dream.
Many people believe this.
But this is real. What we do is a use or misuse of the existence God gives us.
Nothing that is not love can be in heaven.
Sin’s place in eternity is at the receiving end of justice.
God loves us all; and when we sin, it is an affront to His gift.
Ultimately, we must trust in God.
What is important is not maintaining a positive image of Him or His church, but to deepen our relationship with Him.

You are completely correct that the entire point of this is to love Jesus and others. It is love that makes me not believe in hell. The love from God to us is said to be far greater than our love for Him. I know that eternal punishment is wrong so God’s love being stronger than mine must definitely know that it is wrong.
Have you ever thought that “revealed truth” is not the truth or is wrong? Even if hell did not exist, the threat of it would still be used by religions to “keep people in check”.
‘We would be all heaven-bound; we would be all free to do what we will”. If you re-read my post, you will see: “Don’t get me wrong,** I believe in humane finite punishment in the afterlife”.** People will still punished for their sins.

“Sin’s place in eternity is at the receiving end of justice”. I keep reading these “heartless” posts. Can’t you and others like you see the heartlessness in eternal punishment? You say: “God loves us all”. Well, He has a funny way of showing it. Love and eternal punishment are a dichotomy in terms.
What is important to God and our Church is to criticise what is obviously wrong because only then can you see the real truth.

 

[arte]

Luke 16:19—
There was a rich man who used to dress in purple and fine linen and feast magnificently every day. And at his gate there lay a poor man called Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to fill himself with the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even came and licked his sores. Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man died and was buried.

In his torment in Hades he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off with Lazarus in his bosom. So he cried out, "Father Abraham, pity me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in agony in the flames. My son, Abraham replied, remember that during your life good things came your way, just as bad things came the way of Lazarus. Now he is being conforted here while you are in agony. But that is not all; between us and you a great gulf has been fixed, to stop anyone, if he wanted to, crossing from our side to yours, and to stop any crossing from your side to ours.

The rich man replied, Father, I beg you then to send Lazarus to my father’s house, since I have five brothers, to give them warning so that they do not come to this place of torment too. They have Moses and the prophets, said Abraham, let them listen to them. Ah no, father Abraham, said the rich man, but if someone comes to them from the dead, they will repent. Then Abraham said to him, If they will not listen either to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead.

The footnote in the Jerusalem Bible says that the “great gulf” means permanent.
And the last part “they will not be convinced” means just that.

There are 2 very important factors in your Bible quote and your writing:

1. This is a scare tactic. What a great way to preach God’s love and the Good News - **use fear! **
2. I keep reading different descriptions for hell. The vast majority, if not all, and from what I have read from the Church’s teaching is that hell is not a fiery abyss. However, we see just that in this Biblical quote.

 

[fred_conty]

posted by arte
You are not a supernatural being. You are a human being just like the rest of us.

No, what I said was “supernatural HUMAN being”.

I am a Christian Universalist on hell; all will be saved eventually. Eternal punishment is pointless. With the exception of being a fear factor, it serves no other purpose whatsoever. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in humane finite punishment in the afterlife but not inhumane punishment and not eternal punishment.

The Church has defined hell, and the principle characteristic of hell is that it is permanent and full of despair of never being fulfilled in seeing God their one true source of all happiness. We can argue about the other ideas of hell, but despair in never seeing God is not one of them because it has been stated as permanent. We can argue about the state or place of hell, but not its permanence which causes absolute despair.

A Catholic Universalist believes no human being is in hell … but they must believe that the fallen angels are in hell which has been defined. They believe that noone goes there contrary to what the more famous saints in the church have said. And in the face of the church defining hell, it would not seem opposite to the spirit of the church not to believe that some humans go to hell. And with 7 billion people in the world today, what would be the chance of noone going there? However in the face of all of that, the church has never said that any one being is in hell so that it still remains open to the idea, except for the fallen angels.

So we must believe in hell and believe that the fallen angels are there … at least this. So it can never be said that a Catholic is free to not believe in hell or that hell does not exist. And we must believe in eternal punishment because the fallen angels are there permanently.

Like all religious books, the Bible is not inerrant.

That isn’t what the church says. It says…

“Since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching firmly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of our salvation.” (Vatican II, Dei verbum, #11)

How could God be wrong? It is his book(s). Anything that seems like an error is due to our lack of knowledge and misunderstanding. That is why we need the church to guide us it its reading to the good of our salvation and not as a book(s) of science.

And rejecting what we do not like is again stating in another way that the book(s) are in error. And just because we do not know all the answers dosen’t mean that the facts aren’t true. A person of faith is one that never loses their trust in God even tho on the surface it may seem as if God does not know truth and good.

That is what virtue is about. It is easy to love when love is seen, but the person who really loves is one who loves when it is not apparent in the other. Faith, hope, charity … of which love is the greatest. This not only applies to us, but our love for God as well. And love shows itself in trust. Either God is love or he isn’t. St. John says God is Love. And St John read the Old Testiment too and the same passages as you and I have.

There are several parts of the Old Testament that are quite frankly ungodly. They could not have been committed by or relayed by God to a prophet.

Answered above.

You are proving my point on eternal punishment in hell in your sentence. Doing the crime does mean doing the time; the time is finite.

I’ll rephrase this for you to make it clearer…if you do the sin, you do eternity, just like if you do the crime you do the time.

You should listen more to the sane part of your mind and not the insane part.

Your are scaring me now, because you are sounding more like my wife.

The truth is: sane normal rational human beings understand what the real truth is. I love Jesus and I know He loves me and everyone regardless of who they are and what they do. God is love above anything else.

That’s good and I agree, God continues to love us here regardless …
But someday “here” is going to stop, and we will be “there”. And then we ride the up or down elevator there depending on our ticket … sanctifying grace.

Eternal punishment is not love, mercy, justice or forgiveness. Therefore it is not God.

I agree that those in hell there is no love, mercy, justice or forgiveness precisely because they are now full of hate for God. It is on their part that these qualities do not exist. At that point they will see themselves for what they have made themselves become … ugly … in the sight of God, man, other devils. And the one thing that could have prevented this they did not do … ask for mercy and admit they were wrong.

We cannot say that the Gospel is the Good News if it has eternal punishment.

And we cannot say that the Gospel is the Good News if we don’t hear all the News. We need to know for our own good. It is another source of incentive for some people, and especially to get them to realize just how bad things are so they will turn their lives around. Nineveh is an example, where Jonah preached to repent and the whole town did and God then did not carry out his woesome plan for them.

It is a source of Good to know what awaits so we do not experience that unspeakable state regardless of how it comes about. Wouldn’t it be better if a person knew about hell and avoided it because of that knowledge rather than not knowing it and going there? God revealed this to us for our own good. Maybe some don’t need it, but many do.

Just keep praying to the Sacred Heart. (And keep away from my wife from now on.)

 

[Protestor]

If the concept expresses the truth, it is not evil.
If it is a lie, then it would be. Unfortunately, words like eternal are difficult to grasp by beings existing in time. To get it, one must connect with the eternal within oneself.

Your response to what I said is, eternal suffering because expresses truth is is not evil, really.

I am going to need a definition of terms here is any expression of truth good and any expression of a lie bad. What does it mean to express truths or falsehoods? How do you think hell is an expression of truth?

Your second premise is that I do not and/or cannot understand what eternal means I disagree with this completely. I may not have a complete understanding of eternity means but this does not mean that I have no understanding or that I can not talk about it. What I say is not going to be as accurate as what God says on the matter, but this doesn’t mean I cannot accurately talk about it at all

I may have confused you because I was implicitly not granting your position while trying to assert it’s fallaciousness, my bad. If I grant that such a place as hell exists the way that it is described by CCC my argument would look something like this. A place where suffering occurs without end is an evil place and anyone who forces someone to stay in this place forever is evil.
Pls,

 

[tonyrey]

How can be eternal suffering be evil and unjust if it is self-inflicted? Hell is not a trap but a choice! And it has its compensations: freedom without obligations of any description…

Why is it irrelevant? No one else on this forum has regarded it as irrelevant.

"Your second sentence is disputable.

That is the very purpose of this forum! You are not obliged to participate…

I wish I knew what your last sentence meant.

No one else on this forum has failed to understand it. You are not obliged to participate…

BTW Your answer isn’t irrelevant because you haven’t given an answer!

 

[fred_conty]

… posted by arte

1. This is a scare tactic. What a great way to preach God’s love and the Good News - use fear!

Well there it is in black and white in the Good News of the bible. See my last thread for more explaination of the Good News about hell.

1. I keep reading different descriptions for hell. The vast majority, if not all, and from what I have read from the Church’s teaching is that hell is not a fiery abyss. However, we see just that in this Biblical quote.

The Church has never declared formally that there is some sort of fire in hell. And leaves open the idea that it may be the pangs of conscience.

However the bible is rather graphic about hell in a number of places:

Hell of fire
Hell where the worm does not die and the fire is not extinguished
Everlasting fire
Unquenchable fire
Furnace of fire
Everlasting pain
Darkness there
Wailing and Ghashing of teeth
Eternal punishment
In the pool burning with fire and brimstone
Tormented day and night for ever and ever

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Hell of fire
Hell where the worm does not die and the fire is not extinguished
Everlasting fire
Unquenchable fire
Furnace of fire
Everlasting pain
Darkness there
Wailing and Ghashing of teeth
Eternal punishment
In the pool burning with fire and brimstone
Tormented day and night for ever and ever

The following is NOT serious, but I can’t resist. We need some humor is this dark place do we not? Please don’t ban me!! I’m just trying to lighten the mood around here.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Hey folks! Step right up, got some “good news” for ya! Come on, gather round now! That’s right folks, listen up, you have a one time opportunity right here to solve a very terrible problem you have. That’s right folks, you all have a tremendously serious problem and you don’t even know it.

audience gasps, exchanges looks of shock and surprise

That’s right, now listen carefully: God created you sick, commands you to be healthy, but it’s impossible for you to get healthy on your own, and he will torture you forever if you stay sick!

woman in audience faints, audience murmurs

Now wait folks, don’t worry! I’ve got good news. I’ve got just the solution for ya, that’s right. For the low low price of your dignity, integrity, and your children’s freedom I will give you the cure for this horrible problem. All you have to do is outsource your conscience to me, give me money for your whole life, and do whatever I say and you’ll be right as rain.

*Boy in audience: “But sir, I don’t feel sick!”

Oh son, you don’t know how ill you are. Why, you’re so ill, you can’t even tell that you’re ill. :nope: Oh my good boy, how very afraid you should be. Endless torment is waiting for you son! :bigyikes: But, the good news is: all’s ya have ta do is just hand over your dignity and your reason, and I’ll give you the cure. Come on now, step up, step up!

*Boy in audience goes to stage, receives cure: "Gee mister, I don’t really feel much different now. Why’s that?

Oh silly boy, the cure only diminishes the risk of endless punishment, that’s all. You can’t expect it to solve all your problems now can you? You’ll still have all the symptoms of the illness, and if you don’t do exactly what I say, believe every word that comes out of my mouth, or give me money for the rest of your life, the cure will stop working! But don’t worry: you can always come back and get some more cure anytime you want so long as you pay up!

Boy, bewildered, slouches away from the stage back to the audience

Alright, who’s next now?? Step up, step up! Get ya good news here, fresh good news!

 

[Protestor]

Why is it irrelevant? “How can be eternal suffering be evil and unjust if it is self-inflicted?”

Because your question makes no sense. Self-inflicted how and what does who inflicts something effect the goodness or evilness of an action(unless you are saying something about intentionality which isn’t implied by your simplistic question)? Does this whole self-inflicted thing apply to anything else or just eternal suffering? When you say “how can be” do you mean “how can”? Also you aren’t addressing my assertion that eternal suffering is evil you are disputing who is it evil for.

BTW Your answer isn’t irrelevant because you haven’t given an answer

I think that you mean is irrelevant.

 

[Protestor]

The following is NOT serious, but I can’t resist. We need some humor is this dark place do we not? Please don’t ban me!! I’m just trying to lighten the mood around here.

:tsktsk: PermaBanned