Is eternal suffering pointless?

[PRmerger]

No religions are “travesties” unless they encourage people to be evil.

This is very Catholic.

However, having tens of thousands of different denominations is indeed a travesty.

Having wrong theological opinions is bad, but I think we have more pressing problems in this world no?

There is no reason to have an either/or here, PC.

We here on the forum specifically, and Catholicism in general, are quite big enough and intellectually astute enough to discuss both/all.

 

[arte]

What about if some powerful organization decided to kill all those who are destined to hell now. I don’t know what the number would be 1, 100, 1,000, 1,000,000 … How do you think people would react? And do you think those destined would run to the gallows cheering?

They would fight for their life and many who are not destined will begin to protest, rebel, and do all possible to save their brethren. If people out of love for their brothers and sisters would speak out and say they have a right to live, let them live their life out etc… Why is it so difficult to understand that God who is Love, would out of respect for their dignity and with His immense love for His children - has in His wisdom decided that He will not destroy them but set them apart?

The people that are destined to hell are not killing themselves off right now, they are enjoying their existence. God will let them continue to exist in the afterlife but away from the banquet.

It isn’t as simple as that as you well know. The people destined for hell are those who have at least one mortal sin on their souls and do not ask for forgiveness before they die. In another post I gave some examples of mortal sins taken from the “Catholic Parents on Line” which has a list of examples of mortal sins. I had difficulty finding examples of mortal sins but fortunately there was a thread in 2007 on CAF concerning mortal sin and a poster quoted the “Catholic Parents on Line” website.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=198609
web.archive.org/web/20020305105633/www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/examination.html

I have added one more example to my original list taken from the list of examples of mortal sins on the “Catholic Parents on Line” website:

1. Hypnotism
2. Apostasy (leaving the Church)
3. Atheism
4. Agnosticism
5. Joining the Masons
6. Being married by a Justice of the Peace or by a minister of another denomination (without dispensation)
7. Missing Mass on Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation without a serious reason
8. Intentional failure to fast or abstain on appointed days
9. Attempting or intending suicide
10. Committing suicide
11. Excessive tattoos
12. Promotion of euthanasia
13. Masturbation
14. Using a contraceptive (including birth control pills)
15. In-vitro fertilization or artificial insemination
16. Willful divorce or desertion

In your opinion which of the above examples are mortal sins thereby deserving of eternal punishment in hell?

The exorcist Fortea says that some people experience a taste of hell here on earth. This makes a lot of sense to me because we can experience a taste of heaven. So why not hell? He says it is like an ember in their heart, you see them smiling and pretending everything is fine and dandy in their evil life but, they do not have internal peace and feel a spiritual burning.

Don’t blame evil on God, blame it on Satan. He was the one who fell in love with himself and wanted to be like God and messed things up by a clear misuse of his free will.

Who created hell? Answer: God. Who decides whether souls/people go to hell? Answer: God. Who decided the punishment would be eternal and not a finite period of time? Answer: God. Who decided that souls/people are tortured 24/7 in hell? Answer: God. Therefore, God is responsible for setting up a system of justice that is inhumane. I believe in an external evil entity although many people including some Christians believe that evil is just a part of human nature. There is a contradiction in heaven being a perfect place yet an archangel and one third of the angels stage a coup. It all smacks of mythology even paganism to me.

 

[davidv]

It isn’t as simple as that as you well know. The people destined for hell are those who have at least one mortal sin on their souls and do not ask for forgiveness before they die. In another post I gave some examples of mortal sins taken from the “Catholic Parents on Line” which has a list of examples of mortal sins. I had difficulty finding examples of mortal sins but fortunately there was a thread in 2007 on CAF concerning mortal sin and a poster quoted the “Catholic Parents on Line” website.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=198609
web.archive.org/web/20020305105633/www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/examination.html

I have added one more example to my original list taken from the list of examples of mortal sins on the “Catholic Parents on Line” website:

1. Hypnotism
2. Apostasy (leaving the Church)
3. Atheism
4. Agnosticism
5. Joining the Masons
6. Being married by a Justice of the Peace or by a minister of another denomination (without dispensation)
7. Missing Mass on Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation without a serious reason
8. Intentional failure to fast or abstain on appointed days
9. Attempting or intending suicide
10. Committing suicide
11. Excessive tattoos
12. Promotion of euthanasia
13. Masturbation
14. Using a contraceptive (including birth control pills)
15. In-vitro fertilization or artificial insemination
16. Willful divorce or desertion

In your opinion which of the above examples are mortal sins thereby deserving of eternal punishment in hell?

All of the above of grave matter. Willful intent and knowledge of their seriousness is also required for mortal sin to occur.

Who created hell? Answer: God.

Wrong. Sinners created hell.

Who decides whether souls/people go to hell? Answer: God.

Wrong again. Sinners send themselves to hell.

Who decided the punishment would be eternal and not a finite period of time? Answer: God. Who decided that souls/people are tortured 24/7 in hell? Answer: God. Therefore, God is responsible for setting up a system of justice that is inhumane. I believe in an external evil entity although many people including some Christians believe that evil is just a part of human nature. There is a contradiction in heaven being a perfect place yet an archangel and one third of the angels stage a coup. It all smacks of mythology even paganism to me.

 

[PRmerger]

1. What is created can be destroyed.

My mind created an idea. It’s an idea for a book, let’s say.

Now, how do I destroy this idea?

I guess I can forget about it.

But that’s not destroying it.

That’s just…forgetting.

Let’s say I wanted to destroy the idea I created.

How would I do it?

 

[Protestor]

What is material can be destroyed. That is, created material can be destroyed.

Interactions with material is the only thing we can know anything about. Besides for things which are revealed to “us” by God. This conversation is impossible to have without referencing material interaction.

PumpkinCookie for PRmerger(and the CC) souls are by definition immortal “things” created by God. Whatever things means in this context. Literally God defined it so there is no way to change what God has revealed as truth. You could produce an iron clad proof for the mortality of a soul, but it wouldn’t matter. It is somehow false or fallacious in the CC’s eyes.

Click bait is basically something eye catching or interesting. It is something that you want to click on because of the title or thumbnail. The googles had a good answer for this click-bait: content, especially that of a sensational or provocative nature, whose main purpose is to attract attention and draw visitors to a particular web page.

 

[arte]

It is the work of a loving God who provides a place for those who find His Love odious.

They have turned their back on Love.

And since the soul is immortal, hell is eternal.

The people sentenced to hell are those who have at least one unconfessed mortal sin on their souls. In another post I took examples of mortal sins from a list on the “Catholic Parents on Line” website. It would be a good idea to repeat the sample I took from the list:

1.  Hypnotism

2. Apostasy (leaving the Church)
3. Atheism
4. Agnosticism
5. Joining the Masons

6.  Being married by a Justice of the Peace or by a minister of another denomination (without dispensation)

7. Missing Mass on Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation without a serious reason
8. Intentional failure to fast or abstain on appointed days
9. Attempting or intending suicide
10. Committing suicide
11. Excessive tattoos
12. Promotion of euthanasia
13. Masturbation
14. Using a contraceptive (including birth control pills)
15. In-vitro fertilization or artificial insemination
16. Willful divorce or desertion

Which of those above “have turned their back on love” and thereby deserve eternal torture/punishment in hell?"

How is it “the work of a loving God who provides a place for those who find His Love odious” when He sentences them to eternal torture/punishment in hell?" Surely a loving God could do much better by way of justice than torture/punishment 24/7 for eternity.

As the soul is immortal, wouldn’t it be more productive and logical to cleanse a soul no matter how long it takes? After all the soul does have an eternity to right itself. It’s a win win for God and the souls.

 

[Protestor]

My mind created an idea. It’s an idea for a book, let’s say.
How would I do it?

If I kill you or you kill yourself or you die or you could have brain trauma or disfunction or sorts and this idea could be destroyed. Maybe the CC or you has/have something to say about this since I assume that you anticipated these responses. I guess we can talk about this subject by likening it to concepts. Can’t I levy the thing you did about material here about concepts. Even if you are correct and/or can show that concepts cannot be destroyed. Why should anyone accept that souls share the same relationship that concepts do? I assume you are not equating my concepts with my soul.

 

[PRmerger]

The people sentenced to hell are those who have at least one unconfessed mortal sin on their souls. In another post I took examples of mortal sins from a list on the “Catholic Parents on Line” website. It would be a good idea to repeat the sample I took from the list:

1.  Hypnotism

2. Apostasy (leaving the Church)
3. Atheism
4. Agnosticism
5. Joining the Masons

6.  Being married by a Justice of the Peace or by a minister of another denomination (without dispensation)

7. Missing Mass on Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation without a serious reason
8. Intentional failure to fast or abstain on appointed days
9. Attempting or intending suicide
10. Committing suicide
11. Excessive tattoos
12. Promotion of euthanasia
13. Masturbation
14. Using a contraceptive (including birth control pills)
15. In-vitro fertilization or artificial insemination
16. Willful divorce or desertion

This list is NOT to be interpreted as coming from the Catholic Church.

 

[PRmerger]

Interactions with material is the only thing we can know anything about.

That’s not true.

Numbers are immaterial, yet we can know about them.

So is the mind.

 

[PRmerger]

If I kill you or you kill yourself or you die or you could have brain trauma or disfunction or sorts and this idea could be destroyed.

I haven’t destroyed what I created.

Its removal from existence is not something I did, but rather a secondary effect.

Even if you are correct and/or can show that concepts cannot be destroyed. Why should anyone accept that souls share the same relationship that concepts do? I assume you are not equating my concepts with my soul.

It simply limns that there are things which can be created that can’t be destroyed, of which PC asked for an example.

 

[pocaracas]

Hi Aloysium!
Thanks for taking the time to write all that.
I really liked it.

But a few details were seen as being a bit off, or strange…
Mind if I nitpick?

Having not much else better to do, I can try to sort this out.
Let’s start with the fact that I’m pretty sure, and you may agree, that when I die, I will be . . . er. . . dead.
I was conceived into and have lived my life, and will continue live until this “me” stops.
I am made of time and space, matter undergoing its transformations and interactions.

That said, there is something else going on that encompasses all this material stuff.

First off, my true nature is relational.
I relate to the world within and about me through my thoughts, perceptions and feelings.
In a way, I can think of it as a sharing of being that connects me to everything.

With you so far!

Considering the reality of time, I also have to acknowledge that of the moment.
Things change, but I can only be here and now.
Moment(s) has/have no boundary; they/it take(s) up no time and no space, as they/it involve(s)) events in time and space.
So, in every moment (which may be contiuously evolving with time, but one in actuality), I exist outside of time.
I exist in relation to the Ground of my being, which is ever-present, whole, One, bringing forth everything that has, will and does exist relative to this particular time, right now.
My existence is eternal although, I live for a limited number of years.

That definition of a moment was weird, to me. I’ve always considered a moment to be a particular length of time… relative to the person, or event. This just means it’s not a fixed amount of time, but is usually something generically quick.

An instant is a very particularly defined temporal location… Even so, we will usually think of it as a very small span of time… so small it feels like it’s indivisible.

A moment can span from any such human instant to several million years (a moment in geologic time).

Even considering you meant to say “instant” instead of moment, I fail to see how you then jump to “I exist outside of time”.
At any particular instant which happens to fall in between your birth and your death, there you are, at some spatial location.
The “mental you”, as far as I can see it, is an emerging feature of the “physical you” - a product of your brain (mostly), but also your senses, your experiences.
Given this, your existence is fully dependent on you being alive.
Unless you take up to “we are star stuff”…

Who I make myself to be through my actions is known in the moment in which I chose to become who I am from what I have been given.

Are you who chooses? Or is what you are that chooses for you?

This is not my game; it is God’s. He created me within it, in accordance with His plan.
I know that He brings all this into existence as an expression of His goodness and beauty.
I know His will to be that we share in this wonder with Him.

You know?
How? how do you know such things?
From where did such information come?

So He knows everything I do in time, all the bad stuff and the good.
To the degree that I do His will to love,
through the grace of the Holy Spirit, and Christ’s sacrifice on the cross,
(No doubt, I’ve lost you here.)
I have the capacity to remain in good relation to Him.
I can know love.

Under the assumption that there is a personal loving and caring God, no you didn’t lose me.
Under no such assumption, what you say makes no sense. I too can know love… in fact, I think I already do know it.

Apparently somehow, from the kernel of a life conceived, lived and ended,
something new, the same but different,
is brought into being, to fulfill its original unending role of tending to this universe.
Who we are in reality, in relation to God and all creation is dependent on how we live our life.

Are you saying that these souls are something that then goes on to “tend to this universe”?
What does that mean, to tend to the universe?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

My mind created an idea. It’s an idea for a book, let’s say.

Now, how do I destroy this idea?

I guess I can forget about it.

But that’s not destroying it.

That’s just…forgetting.

Let’s say I wanted to destroy the idea I created.

How would I do it?

This is going to get far off topic.

Are “ideas” things that exist? Now we’re doing philosophy!

I’m not sure I want to buy your baggage-laden metaphysics PR. I don’t know if ideas are the kinds of things that exist in the same way as cats or potatoes.

I’m inclined to say that abstract concepts do not exist in the same way as material objects or spiritual “substances.” I tend to suppose numbers are neither created nor destroyed, but are merely emergent properties of our understanding of reality. If there were no minds in the universe, there would be no ideas, in my opinion.

Did God “create” the number “three” in the same way he is actively creating our solar system, or every single cell in each of our bodies? Are our souls exactly like the number “three”? Do they emerge from our minds? Are they just a way we describe ourselves? I don’t think you can hold these opinions and be a Catholic “true-believer.”

Memories, nation states, politics, culture: all very important ideas that affect us in our day to day realities. But do these “things” exist? No doubt ideas are created within time, but can they said to be “things?” Can an idea be destroyed?

Is there such a thing as a thought existing independently of a thinker? But…is there such a thing as a soul existing independently of a body? You say so!

OK back on track…you still have not shown that souls exist indefinitely by necessity. You can’t just say “souls are immortal by definition.” It would be just as legitimate to say: “your opinions are wrong by definition.” LOL! That’s not right!

I say: souls are not immortal by necessity because they are created things just like cats and potatoes and not like ideas. Any thing created can be destroyed.

Does this mean it is impossible for souls to be immortal? Of course not! It is entirely possible. But, you need to show that it is necessary. I don’t believe you’ve done this.

BTW, trying to prove that something is logically necessary is a huge burden. Your argument would be more practical if you said…it is possible that souls are the kinds of things that can’t be destroyed because [evidence here]…and therefore hell has to drag on into infinity because God doesn’t have any other options for those who continuously and indefinitely hate him.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

That definition of a moment was weird, to me. I’ve always considered a moment to be a particular length of time… relative to the person, or event. This just means it’s not a fixed amount of time, but is usually something generically quick.

An instant is a very particularly defined temporal location… Even so, we will usually think of it as a very small span of time… so small it feels like it’s indivisible.

A moment can span from any such human instant to several million years (a moment in geologic time).

Even considering you meant to say “instant” instead of moment, I fail to see how you then jump to “I exist outside of time”.
At any particular instant which happens to fall in between your birth and your death, there you are, at some spatial location.
The “mental you”, as far as I can see it, is an emerging feature of the “physical you” - a product of your brain (mostly), but also your senses, your experiences.
Given this, your existence is fully dependent on you being alive.
Unless you take up to “we are star stuff”…

Same here. That definition of “moment” and the discussion of “time” brought to mind something like a temporal “Zeno’s paradox.” If each moment comprises no time at all…then no time ever elapses. Tortoises never catch up, and arrows don’t fly. But that can’t be right!

Also confused about the “leap” to “I exist outside of time.”

 

[pocaracas]

Beautiful!

I’m glad you liked it.
It always strikes me dumb at how huge the universe really is.
If you have some time to kill, this site gives you a scaled version of the solar system:
If the moon were only one pixel. That’s the scale one pixel for the moon… try to read all the little nuggets of text that the guy put there to cover the empty space in between planets.

But, God is personal, He is very personal. He is a bit of a geek or nerd but, of course not those words.

He is? How do you know?

But, I digress…

indeed…

What would satisfy you? Would you like God to just appear to you one morning when perhaps you are sipping your coffee or when ever you prefer and you are wondering about Him? Would that resolve the problem?

Where I am going with this is that He designed the Way. In His Wisdom and Love, He designed the best way to find Him and out of respect within that system He does not intrude - so you are free to find Him.

Yeah… I’ve heard that… some one called it the A.S.K. method… ask, seek and knock.
And repeat until the door opens.
Well, I can see the psychological underpinning of such a methodology and mark it as faulty, due to it taking advantage of a flaw in our minds.

The problem with God appearing one morning to me would be that I would be unable to discount my own mind playing tricks on me… dreams… hallucinations… crazy stuff.
Although, I may offer a much more satisfying alternative: I’d be glad if the guy appeared to every one. And not just once, but once in a while, to provide some insightful guidance into life. Every single individual would have a visit of the almighty loving creator.
This would have the side-effect of throwing out all religions - belief would not be required. People had direct access to the source - all people, equal access. No conflicts ever about beliefs. All would be in agreement about God.
Of course, if this was to happen… it should have been happening since the beginning… but hasn’t

Instead, we have… this world… with it’s different evolving religions, geographically contained groups of people believing in similar things… things brought on to most of them through conquest of territory, war, imposition… maintained mainly by successful generations of parents desiring their kids to be as they were, to believe as they do. Mysteries, unexplained details, abound in every religion. How simple it would have been for such a God to dispel all those mysteries… instead… nothing. People, theologians attempt to provide reasons ever more graceful, ever more precise, ever more fancy, for why those mysteries exist… but it’s all people. People is all I see, when God is concerned… any god. Wherever/whenever there are no people… all gods seem equally absent.
People spread the concept of souls.
People spread the concept of hell.
People spread the concept of heaven.
People spread the concept of eternity of the souls in any of those places.
People… prophets, saints, priests, bishops, popes… even Jesus… clerics, oracles, imams, rabbis, sheiks, monks… all are people.

 

[pocaracas]

Pocaracas,

One quick post and I hope it does not make me late for an appointment.

There is a belief in the Church that Jesus was born much in the same way as when he entered the room where the apostles were - He just went through the door. Consider this image of passing through… now, to come to know God and to have a relationship with God, because He is personal - and it is a relationship - it is not a figment of your imagination - He participates - He has designed in in such a way as to you have to have a certain substance sort of speak to transcend the barrier and pass through. If you are arrogant, prideful etc, for instance, and I am not saying that you are, this blocks you from passing through.

Have a wonderful day!

Blessings,

Abba

I hope you made the appointment!

Well, I wonder why you had to add the bit “it is not a figment of your imagination”?
How would anyone know the difference, provided they believe it not to be imagination?

Also, I’m with you… I don’t think I’m arrogant or prideful… I just don’t want to be wrong… and all religions appear to me as wrong… because of that “people” detail, I mentioned in my previous post.
And we know very well how fallible people can be.

 

[Abba]

Same here. That definition of “moment” and the discussion of “time” brought to mind something like a temporal “Zeno’s paradox.” If each moment comprises no time at all…then no time ever elapses. Tortoises never catch up, and arrows don’t fly. But that can’t be right!

Also confused about the “leap” to “I exist outside of time.”

Agree with your agreement.

 

[Abba]

I hope you made the appointment!

Well, I wonder why you had to add the bit “it is not a figment of your imagination”?
How would anyone know the difference, provided they believe it not to be imagination?

Because God really does exist. And, he is out of this world! The way our imagination and hallucinations work is not by creating something absolutely new but by mixing that which is already known and has been seen. Even if the mind combines certain features and creates a new face - it is not out of this world and existence.

Job was not shocked by the voice and presence of God. Did you notice? That’s the reason I wrote ‘supposedly.’ Spiritually, I would think that He was familiar with God and knew Him. But, what made Job so certain that it was God and not Satan or his imagination? He knew it was God and it was God. He is a being with a presence.

Saint Faustina was not hallucinating neither were the children of Fatima nor Bernadette etc… But, why would so many people believe them? Because, in their soul the perceive and sense the presence of God. The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, guides us but once confirmed by the Church we can participate and learn from these events. But, they are not left on their own out there. The pilgrims have spiritual experiences etc…

 

[Abba]

Also, I’m with you… I don’t think I’m arrogant or prideful… I just don’t want to be wrong… and all religions appear to me as wrong… because of that “people” detail, I mentioned in my previous post.
And we know very well how fallible people can be.

For sure. I totally respect your position. It’s sad when people are brain washed, lied to and misled (the Mormon conversion system) - and most sad when these very people did not bother much to question the veracity of what they were accepting as truth. God gave us a brain, and I think He expects us to use it. Go for it!

But, don’t get lost and remember this is your journey. You don’t know why others may be in a similar state of mind but, you keep truthful to yourself and don’t let yourself be misled. There are a lot of people who pretend to be atheists for various reason and they even end up believing that they are… don’t let yourself get confused by them. Stand on your own grounds and continue your own search.

I have discussed with a distinguished scientist who is a real atheist. He appreciates religion etc…and wishes that if God really does exist that he could also have faith. But, he simply doesn’t - he is a real atheist. He thinks the trend in England is a joke and the atheist religion that is currently a la mode.

I am just recommending that you don’t join an atheist religion group. Keep truthful to yourself. I have been in your shoes, and did the walk and talked the talk. I was raised Catholic but fell in love with Plato when I was sixteen and I just took off from there. I studied Greek and Roman antiquity and the Egyptians etc… and thought of how well engineered their religions were and now they are gone. I wondered it thousands of years from now someone would think the same about Catholicism. So, like the Prodigal Son I walked away so I could find the truth for myself not because I was raised by pious Catholics.

Peace.

 

[Protestor]

That’s not true. Numbers are immaterial, yet we can know about them. So is the mind.

I forgot to amend my first response completely with my second. Yes we can now things about numbers like there are a infinite amount of primes or pi and [2^(1/2)] are irrational numbers. Are you saying the mind is immaterial and/or what?

I haven’t destroyed what I created. Its removal from existence is not something I did, but rather a secondary effect.

Even if it is secondary, so what, I don’t care who or what caused an idea to not exist or wether it is a primary or secondary effect. For this discussion it only matters that it can be done caused not to exist.

Your question is how you can do it though so here I go. If you killed yourself you would still the primary cause for the destruction of your idea. Just because it is one of a number of effects doesn’t mean that it is secondary. I guess my questions to you are what effect did you cause in this scenario and what is the second cause that leads to the “secondary” effect of destroying an idea? Could you by this same reasoning say that you are not the cause of of someones sorrow when you kill yourself. Would it be rational for someone say to your family that you are not the cause of their sorrow because their only is only a secondary effect of your suicide or even a tertiary effect.

Wow this is somber and off topic. :bighanky:

 

[Protestor]

Wrong. Sinners created hell. Sinners send themselves to hell.

Sinners created hell, is this a serious statement? I think you mean that “sinners are the reason that God created hell”.

I disapprove of the verb “send” here. It is not a normative usage of the verb send. I think you mean that “they(sinners) are the reason or the sins are the reason why God sends them to hell” or “they choose to go to hell” or “they choose to be sent to hell”.