Is eternal suffering pointless?

[Abba]

Well folks, it’s going to take me several more tries to accomplish my conquest.



But, with a touch of perseverance and some discipline (“discipline, discipline [is] the thing you know”- Jungle Book youtube.com/watch?v=fS3nZoFgCQ8 ) I shall get there with God’s help.

You have there 2 unknowns:

• God exists.
• What the Catholic Church teaches is true.

Let’s take the first unknown. It can be unraveled into two possibilities:

• God does exist - this raises the question of which god, but let’s make it the monotheist creator God that is usually taught by the Church: the loving, caring God which is akin to a parent. Would your loving and caring parent ever create a place where you are to go forever, in case you misbehave? Or is your parent more likely to give you a temporary timeout for you to think about what you have done wrong and learn from that experience to then share the standard loving company of the rest of mankind?

Hello Pocaracas,

Now keep in mind you are a human being. The paragraph above was written by a human. A human that was created by God. And, this human is measuring and judging the wisdom and knowledge of God (who is the creator of heaven and earth, and created humans etc…). There is a little humor in the picture somewhere - don’t miss it. Not so you can get a laugh or a smile - but, so that you can see the error.

Now, ants do not have the capacity to reason as we humans do nor do they have the intelligence that we do, but, just to present the picture I am seeing in your paragraph above; image an ant judging humans and an ant as an ant with its instinct limitations and truly being incapable of reasoning as humans are capable, in reality the ant would not even be capable of reaching a point as to even recognize humans as humans or superior beings etc… but, picture an ant with all its limitations judging humans. Now picture a human with all its limitations judging the creator of heaven and earth. Do you see the huge gap between the ants and humans,and,humans and God?

Job 38 to 42 (please read Job 38 to 42 here a little taste)

God Speaks Now to Job
38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,

2 “Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 “Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you [a]have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
6 “On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who enclosed the sea with doors
When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb;
9 When I made a cloud its garment
And thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 And I **placed boundaries on it
And set a bolt and doors,
11 And I said, ‘Thus far you shall come, but no farther;
And here shall your proud waves stop’?
God’s Mighty Power
12 “Have you [c]ever in your life commanded the morning,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?

…

…

“Now gird up your loins like a man;
I will ask you, and you instruct Me.
8 “Will you really annul My judgment?
Will you condemn Me that you may be justified?**
9 “Or do you have an arm like God,
And can you thunder with a voice like His?

…

Job’s Confession
42 Then Job answered the Lord and said,

2 “I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.”
4 ‘Hear, now, and I will speak;
I will ask You, and You instruct me.’
5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
6 Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes.”

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2039&version=NASB

 

[Protestor]

Regarding Scripture, all of that can be dismissed.

Are you dismissing them because light cannot contradict light or because of another reason?

How do you interpret Mathew10:28? “the body and soul will be destroyed in hell”
Or 1Tim6:16 “only God possesses immortality”
Or Rom6:23 “for the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life”
Or Rom2:7 “to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life”
Or Eze18:4 “the soul who sins will die”
(not direct quotes/read surrounding verses for context)

I am not saying that all these verses couldn’t be explained away, but I think that an explanation should be given. I understand that the position of the church is what is quoted below, but I am not convinced, and I am not sure how I could be from their explanation. I know that Origen and Agustine also wrote on this subject but quite frankly I don’t care. Don’t get me wrong I like the dudes, but that doesn’t mean I agree with them. To tell you the truth I am not convinced that the soul is not eternal but there seems to be inconclusive evidence.

"SESSION 8, FIFTH LATERAN COUNCIL

19 December 1513

[Condemnation of every proposition contrary to the truth of the enlightened christian faith]

Leo, bishop, servant of the servants of God, with the approval of the sacred council, for an everlasting record. The burden of apostolic government ever drives us on so that, for the weaknesses of souls requiring to be healed, of which the almighty Creator from on high has willed us to have the care, and for those ills in particular which are now seen to be pressing most urgently on the faithful, we may exercise, like the Samaritan in the gospel, the task of healing with oil and wine, lest that rebuke of Jeremiah may be cast at us: Is there no balm in Gilead, is there no physician there? Consequently, since in our days (which we endure with sorrow) the sower of cockle, the ancient enemy of the human race, has dared to scatter and multiply in the Lord’s field some extremely pernicious errors, which have always been rejected by the faithful, especially on the nature of the rational soul, with the claim that it is mortal, or only one among all human beings, and since some, playing the philosopher without due care, assert that this proposition is true at least according to philosophy, it is our desire to apply suitable remedies against this infection and, with the approval of the sacred council, we condemn and reject all those who insist that the intellectual soul is mortal, or that it is only one among all human beings, and those who suggest doubts on this topic. For the soul not only truly exists of itself and essentially as the form of the human body, as is said in the canon of our predecessor of happy memory, pope Clement V, promulgated in the general council of Vienne, but it is also immortal; and further, for the enormous number of bodies into which it is infused individually, it can and ought to be and is multiplied. This is clearly established from the gospel when the Lord says, They cannot kill the soul; and in another place, Whoever hates his life in this world, will keep it for eternal life and when he promises eternal rewards and eternal punishments to those who will be judged according to the merits of their life; otherwise, the incarnation and other mysteries of Christ would be of no benefit to us, nor would resurrection be something to look forward to, and the saints and the just would be (as the Apostle says) the most miserable of all people.

And since truth cannot contradict truth, we define that every statement contrary to the enlightened truth of the faith is totally false and we strictly forbid teaching otherwise to be permitted. We decree that all those who cling to erroneous statements of this kind, thus sowing heresies which are wholly condemned, should be avoided in every way and punished as detestable and odious heretics and infidels who are undermining the catholic faith. Moreover we strictly enjoin on each and every philosopher who teaches publicly in the universities or elsewhere, that when they explain or address to their audience the principles or conclusions of philosophers, where these are known to deviate from the true faith – as in the assertion of the soul’s mortality or of there being only one soul or of the eternity of the world and other topics of this kind – they are obliged to devote their every effort to clarify for their listeners the truth of the christian religion, to teach it by convincing arguments, so far as this is possible, and to apply themselves to the full extent of their energies to refuting and disposing of the philosophers’ opposing arguments, since all the solutions are available."

I suspect that you will attempt to use the principle below from the CCC to do some fancy footwork around the verses I presented. But just stating that I can interchange human person or human life with soul is not an explanation.
“363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.”

 

[Gilrod7]

Relying on the position that hell serves no purpose since we don’t know of any redemption from its darkness, the pain there would be useless. that argument/reality/position is one of the most prevalent criticisms of our religion, and why the “religion” gets rejected, and Christ along with it. a tragedy of false assumption.

Eternal suffering is not pointless, to begin with, everything that takes up matter, everything that is on the spectrum of existence has a purpose. Second, the torture cannot proceed forever as malevolent and wicked as the person might have been in his or her mortal life, the individual is a human soul; further, if God is all-loving, all-forgiving, all-compassionate, all-powerful, then God cannot condemn a human soul to “eternal suffering.” I dare argue that the suffering has to be temporal, the person has to have some good buried deep within the very essence of his or her soul. Hence, hell is torture, and that torture is a purification process that is needed to wipe out the evil that is rooted in that person’s soul in order to eventually reach heaven.

Just my opinion.

 

[Abba]

In this stage, the thing to do is to recognize that God is wiser than we are and to try and find our place in this endeavor. But, even if we find the wisdom within ourselves to accept this fact and move forward , for the questions still remain, how do we move forward?

Well, let’s take a look at what Job said:

5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
6 Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes.”

That you have heard of Him by the hearing, is something that I think you have stated and that this knowledge of Him is past down generation to generation. Now you erroneously think that it is a lie that is being passed down or some kind of an illusion etc… At any rate, it seems to me that you can say that 'you have heard of Him by the hearing of the ear" but, it seems as though you have not believed as Job had believed even though it was by hearing of Him.

Now, Job had a lot of faith even though it was by the hearing (supposedly) and you would say that you have none and all you have received is by the hearing.

However, Job backs out because “…now my eye sees You; Therefore I retract and I repent in dust and ashes.”

Now, you may say that on a scale of 1 to 100, from the hearing Job had 99.99 faith and you have 0, but that if you were given the opportunity to chat with God, well, that would change things. I guess, you really would not have any other choice but to believe - that’s it you would know. So, Job had that advantage over what you have now, right?

Now, this brings to mind Thomas:
John 20
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said unto them, “Unless I shall see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
26 And after eight days the disciples were again within, and Thomas was with them. Then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be unto you.”
27 Then said He to Thomas, “Reach hither thy finger and behold My hands, and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into My side: and be not faithless, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said unto Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said unto him, “Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.”

Notice what Jesus said:
Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.

Why? Why did He say that? What does it mean?

 

[Abba]

Eternal suffering is not pointless, to begin with, everything that takes up matter, everything that is on the spectrum of existence has a purpose. Second, the torture cannot proceed forever as malevolent and wicked as the person might have been in his or her mortal life, the individual is a human soul; further, if God is all-loving, all-forgiving, all-compassionate, all-powerful, then God cannot condemn a human soul to “eternal suffering.” I dare argue that the suffering has to be temporal, the person has to have some good buried deep within the very essence of his or her soul. Hence, hell is torture, and that torture is a purification process that is needed to wipe out the evil that is rooted in that person’s soul in order to eventually reach heaven.

Just my opinion.

This is incorrect because Jesus said souls will be condemned to hell. In season or out of season - the truth must be told.
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209&version=KJ21

 

[pocaracas]

Hello Abba

Now keep in mind you are a human being. The paragraph above was written by a human. A human that was created by God. And, this human is measuring and judging the wisdom and knowledge of God (who is the creator of heaven and earth, and created humans etc…). There is a little humor in the picture somewhere - don’t miss it. Not so you can get a laugh or a smile - but, so that you can see the error.

Now, ants do not have the capacity to reason as we humans do nor do they have the intelligence that we do, but, just to present the picture I am seeing in your paragraph above; image an ant judging humans and an ant as an ant with its instinct limitations and truly being incapable of reasoning as humans are capable, in reality the ant would not even be capable of reaching a point as to even recognize humans as humans or superior beings etc… but, picture an ant with all its limitations judging humans. Now picture a human with all its limitations judging the creator of heaven and earth. Do you see the huge gap between the ants and humans,and,humans and God?

So… you’re just saying we can’t ever come to know what God thinks nor how he applies whatever it is he calls love for his dearly created humans?

Then the analogy of the loving parent is a bit faulty, no?

I’d take your picture and go up a few notches!
Imagine that mouse holding up the whole Universe: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Earth’s_Location_in_the_Universe_SMALLER_%28JPEG%29.jpg

How insignificant this planet is…

 

[PRmerger]

Hello Abba

So… you’re just saying we can’t ever come to know what God thinks nor how he applies whatever it is he calls love for his dearly created humans?

No. That’s not a correct articulation.

We can’t ever fully come to know and apprehend God, how he thinks or applies love.

But we can come to know and apprehend him.

So comprendis, non est Deus–St. Augustine

 

[pocaracas]

No. That’s not a correct articulation.

We can’t ever fully come to know and apprehend God, how he thinks or applies love.

But we can come to know and apprehend him.

So comprendis, non est Deus–St. Augustine

So we can understand a part, but not the whole, is that it?
We can understand that hell in eternal… as eternal as heaven. and that’s it?

 

[Aloysium]

So we can understand a part, but not the whole, is that it?
We can understand that hell in eternal… as eternal as heaven. and that’s it?

What constitutes eternity, non-corporeal existence, and a glorious resurrected body may not be easily understood, if at all before we get there.

Having not much else better to do, I can try to sort this out.
Let’s start with the fact that I’m pretty sure, and you may agree, that when I die, I will be . . . er. . . dead.
I was conceived into and have lived my life, and will continue live until this “me” stops.
I am made of time and space, matter undergoing its transformations and interactions.

That said, there is something else going on that encompasses all this material stuff.

First off, my true nature is relational.
I relate to the world within and about me through my thoughts, perceptions and feelings.
In a way, I can think of it as a sharing of being that connects me to everything.

Considering the reality of time, I also have to acknowledge that of the moment.
Things change, but I can only be here and now.
Moment(s) has/have no boundary; they/it take(s) up no time and no space, as they/it involve(s)) events in time and space.
So, in every moment (which may be contiuously evolving with time, but one in actuality), I exist outside of time.
I exist in relation to the Ground of my being, which is ever-present, whole, One, bringing forth everything that has, will and does exist relative to this particular time, right now.
My existence is eternal although, I live for a limited number of years.

Who I make myself to be through my actions is known in the moment in which I chose to become who I am from what I have been given.

This is not my game; it is God’s. He created me within it, in accordance with His plan.
I know that He brings all this into existence as an expression of His goodness and beauty.
I know His will to be that we share in this wonder with Him.

So He knows everything I do in time, all the bad stuff and the good.
To the degree that I do His will to love,
through the grace of the Holy Spirit, and Christ’s sacrifice on the cross,
(No doubt, I’ve lost you here.)
I have the capacity to remain in good relation to Him.
I can know love.

Apparently somehow, from the kernel of a life conceived, lived and ended,
something new, the same but different,
is brought into being, to fulfill its original unending role of tending to this universe.
Who we are in reality, in relation to God and all creation is dependent on how we live our life.

I’m not sure what there is (when and where probably not being relevant as we would be no longer in time) between the resurrection and our life here.
Purgatory is one aspect, as are the Beatific Vision and hell. These latter two form the basis of our eternal nature and the relationship we have with God.

You’re sort of on your own in that it is up to you whether you want to sort it out.
But, there’s a lot of help from the Holy Spirit and God’s church.
In the end, it doesn’t matter. The whole point is to love.

:twocents: sent from my iPhone

 

[PRmerger]

So we can understand a part, but not the whole, is that it?

Yes, sir!

We can understand that hell in eternal… as eternal as heaven. and that’s it?

Umm…no.

There’s a whole bunch more we can understand.

 

[Abba]

I’d take your picture and go up a few notches!
Imagine that mouse holding up the whole Universe: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Earth’s_Location_in_the_Universe_SMALLER_%28JPEG%29.jpg

How insignificant this planet is…

Beautiful!

And, just wow on that diagram. It brings to mind, Albert Einstein. Let me freely paraphrase him because I do not remember his exact words but I captured what he was expressing. Einstein felt that he was intruding in an intelligent being’s blueprints. He said he could not but believe in the existence of God but he did not believe in a personal God. He could not make the leap of understanding that the creator of heaven and earth would be bothered with a speck/s (human/s) that is here one day and gone the next.

But, God is personal, He is very personal. He is a bit of a geek or nerd but, of course not those words. I just bumped into this image which without the words is often used to explain the Trinity:

http://www.wolfgnards.com/media/blogs/photos/miscellaneous/nerd-dork-geek.jpg

Well, you get the picture. He cares very, very, much about us. He loves His humans and would die for them and He even knows how much hair strands you have on your head. Of course, nerd, geek, fanatical and obsession are negative words to use to describe the personal love of God but I lack time and eloquence and well,…bare with me, please.

Luke 12:4-7

4 “I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will [d]warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into [e]hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two [f]cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

Well, Einstein, may he rest in peace, knows now. And so do Socrates and Plato. Oh, my goodness! That I could have been incarnated in a little ladybug the days Socrates and Plato died!!! Oh, my! They sought Him and broke barriers and frontiers and then alas! What joy!!!

But, I digress…

What would satisfy you? Would you like God to just appear to you one morning when perhaps you are sipping your coffee or when ever you prefer and you are wondering about Him? Would that resolve the problem?

Where I am going with this is that He designed the Way. In His Wisdom and Love, He designed the best way to find Him and out of respect within that system He does not intrude - so you are free to find Him.

Gotta gooooooo…people depend on me.

I hope I have been helpful. I will keep you in my humble prayers.

Of course, I expect to be corrected by Catholics if I say anything misleading or wrong. It is good to be corrected. When we are in error it is like having dark blotches on our way and we cannot see the path clearly. When the darkness is taken away we can see clearer. So, far I have not been accused of being a heretic so I must be on the right track.

 

[PRmerger]

Eternal suffering is not pointless, to begin with, everything that takes up matter, everything that is on the spectrum of existence has a purpose. Second, the torture cannot proceed forever as malevolent and wicked as the person might have been in his or her mortal life, the individual is a human soul; further, if God is all-loving, all-forgiving, all-compassionate, all-powerful, then God cannot condemn a human soul to “eternal suffering.” I dare argue that the suffering has to be temporal, the person has to have some good buried deep within the very essence of his or her soul. Hence, hell is torture, and that torture is a purification process that is needed to wipe out the evil that is rooted in that person’s soul in order to eventually reach heaven.

Just my opinion.

What you have proposed is contrary to Catholicism, Gilrod.

Hell’s principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.–CCC 1057
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1057.htm

 

[Abba]

Pocaracas,

One quick post and I hope it does not make me late for an appointment.

There is a belief in the Church that Jesus was born much in the same way as when he entered the room where the apostles were - He just went through the door. Consider this image of passing through… now, to come to know God and to have a relationship with God, because He is personal - and it is a relationship - it is not a figment of your imagination - He participates - He has designed in in such a way as to you have to have a certain substance sort of speak to transcend the barrier and pass through. If you are arrogant, prideful etc, for instance, and I am not saying that you are, this blocks you from passing through.

Have a wonderful day!

Blessings,

Abba

 

[PRmerger]

Are you dismissing them because light cannot contradict light or because of another reason?

No.

I am dismissing them because every heretic from the beginning of the Church to modernity has quoted Scripture to back up his heresy.

Scripture interpreted apart from the lens of the Church which gave us this Bible, can be summarily dismissed.

 

[Protestor]

No, I am dismissing them because every heretic from the beginning of the Church to modernity has quoted Scripture to back up his heresy.

But I love quote mining.:compcoff:

I forgot we were here.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Regarding Scripture, all of that can be dismissed.

The conclusion that the soul can be annihilated is testament to what happens when one reads the Scriptures without the lens of the Faith which gave us the Scriptures.

You get all sorts of bizarre interpretations of the Bible.

As far as reason telling you that the soul doesn’t necessarily have to be immortal…well, I think you haven’t addressed the fact that we are made in God’s image (while space dust isn’t)…and that means that when we reach our proper perfection, we have immortal souls, as God is immortal.

And at death, we reach our proper perfection.

Your task is to prove that human souls exist indefinitely by necessity. Merely suggesting they do because they are created in the image of God is insufficient. We are a unity of body and soul, and together we are created in the image of God as persons.

Socrates supposed that our souls have always existed in some heavenly realm of perfection. These souls are neither created nor destroyed, and they are periodically sucked down into the physical world. This process causes severe amnesia and can be repeated indefinitely until the soul becomes an enlightened philosopher. His argument that souls survive the death of the body is based on the idea that souls are uncreated and eternal. He has a very compelling narrative about this in Republic, Phaedrus, and Phaedo. However, the Judeo-Christian teaching is that each individual human being is brought into and sustained in existence directly by God.

What can be created can be destroyed. Is there a reason to doubt this maxim? Can you suggest an example of something that can be created but not destroyed?

Geometric shapes or abstract ideas are neither created nor destroyed (in my ontology at least ), but are human souls exactly like that? Are they just ideas we have about ourselves, or do they have existence? I think, if you are Catholic, you must affirm that our souls really exist as a component of our essence. There is no reason, given Judeo-Christian metaphysics, to suppose our essence is necessarily infinite or eternal. Socrates gave us some reasons to think this, but it comes with a totally different ontology and epistemology. Neither the Torah nor the Prophets give us a reason to think we exist like demi-gods, unable to be destroyed by the one who is creating everything!

You have an interesting view on scripture. It reminds me of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They have a book called “What Does The Bible Really Say?” wherein they tell you all about what it really says. Everyone thinks they know, but I doubt any of us actually do!

 

[PRmerger]

Your task is to prove that human souls exist indefinitely by necessity. Merely suggesting they do because they are created in the image of God is insufficient. We are a unity of body and soul, and together we are created in the image of God as persons.

Yes.

Socrates supposed that our souls have always existed in some heavenly realm of perfection. These souls are neither created nor destroyed, and they are periodically sucked down into the physical world. This process causes severe amnesia and can be repeated indefinitely until the soul becomes an enlightened philosopher. His argument that souls survive the death of the body is based on the idea that souls are uncreated and eternal. He has a very compelling narrative about this in Republic, Phaedrus, and Phaedo. However, the Judeo-Christian teaching is that each individual human being is brought into and sustained in existence directly by God.

You are correct.

What can be created can be destroyed. Is there a reason to doubt this maxim? Can you suggest an example of something that can be created but not destroyed?

What you are saying is: something that’s immortal can be mortal.

Does that make sense to you?

The soul, by definition, is immortal.

If it’s not immortal, then it’s not a soul.

Geometric shapes or abstract ideas are neither created nor destroyed (in my ontology at least ), but are human souls exactly like that?

This is a nonsequitur, PC.

No one, AFAIK, has been proposing that geometric shapes are created nor destroyed, nor that the definition of them depends upon their being created or destroyed, so it’s inutile to assert the above.

You have an interesting view on scripture. It reminds me of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They have a book called “What Does The Bible Really Say?” wherein they tell you all about what it really says. Everyone thinks they know, but I doubt any of us actually do!

Well, it is not my view but the view of the Church.

There is indeed a wrong way to read Scripture, and if you don’t believe that, then I suppose you think that the tens of thousands of different Christian denominations is a wonderful thing, rather than an obscenity.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Hmmm. Have you considered the possiblity that no one ever knowingly and willingly rejects God? (my thread)

Your thread is interesting. I don’t understand sin principally as a rejection of God, but rather as harm to oneself and others. Sin, and the death and destruction it causes, is its own punishment. God can rescue us from it if we repent, I believe. The moral law exists to help us navigate this imperfect existence. We get lost when we transgress that law.

Can you tell me the verse about “proportional justice”? The idea with “turning the cheek” is to change the situation, to free ourselves from the natural inclination to want revenge. Jesus calls us to the supernatural, a perfection that has us rise above our natural response. When we react to violence with violence, we are behaving as machines.

“An eye for an eye” is proportional justice, which is a great improvement over the escalating vengeance theories of justice at the time. Neither machines nor animals have any such concept as justice. Proportional justice is strictly fair, but mercy and forgiveness are holy. I agree with Jesus that we should always forgive, especially if we desire forgiveness from others and from God.

I would agree that if God ever took offense, He did so before He even created us, and forgave us before He hit the “create” button. God is putting an end to it, encouraging us to forgive. The rest is all the end-of-the-world stuff, right? I don’t put much weight on the end-of-the-world stuff.

In my view, God cannot be offended at all. He cannot be surprised, nor disturbed, nor disappointed, nor any other emotion. God is beyond magnanimous. God is beyond nobility. We have no power over him and he can neither change nor be changed.

No, not end of the world stuff. Every day stuff. People die every day.

Not the truth as I see it. You have spoken about a person “becoming” evil, but you are saying your use of the label has nothing to do with resentment. But seriously, do a person’s actions actually change anything about their existence? If so, what? To me, it is more like the behavior is a manifestation of the blindness or ignorance occurring in the perpetrator of the bad action.

Our evil behavior does change us, both physically and spiritually. A father who neglects his children is a bad father. He “loses” his chance to be a good father. Maybe he can regain it, but not without much repentance and amends. A drug addict destroys his or her body. A sexually promiscuous person destroys his/her body and the bodies of his/her partners. Maybe not immediately, but over time. A thief destroys his or her nobility, honor, and honesty. A liar destroys reputations. These things can be regained with repentance. There is always hope. God can restore us.

Well, in your view it is incoherent and doesn’t explain the world. The rest, well, more assertions that can be argued. No need for that now though, we’re sidetracked enough!

I thought you were implying that forgiveness is the same as withholding consequence.

If a person does not desire forgiveness, they have not incorporated something into their conscience. We die? Would God let someone “die” if they do not know what they are doing, that their conscience is malformed or they are blind?

Yes, God will let us die. It happens every day. It is the 100% assured outcome of all human lives. I hope and pray for a miraculous resurrection and life in the World to Come someday, but I do not see it as guaranteed for anyone in particular.

Just as you cannot imagine a justification for eternal suffering, I cannot imagine a human committing gratuitous evil. Hell would have a purpose if it is a bootcamp. Humans have a purpose for what they do, always. Sometimes we judge the purpose as “evil”, but it is still a purpose. Can you come up with an example of gratuitous evil by a human?

Are you open to the possibility that a person “becoming” evil is only a perception? An illusion?

Right, that’s what I meant. We don’t have enough information to know whether there are any gratuitous evils, except for the “endless hell” postulate. Though torturing a baby to death for casual amusement seems to me to be a gratuitous evil, I don’t think I have enough information to make that judgment. But, I think we do have enough information to determine that “endless hell” would be a gratuitous evil.

Thanks!

Hey, wait a minute… are you saying I don’t have logical consistency? I saw that.

No, just that arguing on the internet and being “right” is morally inferior to helping others and being good. Lots of nuns I knew held many wacky and contradictory theologies, but they also fed the hungry and mentally ill homeless every day. They are better than me.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Yes.

You are correct.

What you are saying is: something that’s immortal can be mortal.

Does that make sense to you?

The soul, by definition, is immortal.

If it’s not immortal, then it’s not a soul.

This is a nonsequitur, PC.

No one, AFAIK, has been proposing that geometric shapes are created nor destroyed, nor that the definition of them depends upon their being created or destroyed, so it’s inutile to assert the above.

Well, it is not my view but the view of the Church.

There is indeed a wrong way to read Scripture, and if you don’t believe that, then I suppose you think that the tens of thousands of different Christian denominations is a wonderful thing, rather than an obscenity.

Let’s break this down.

Are souls created? If “yes,” go to 1) below. If “no,” go to 2) below.

1. What is created can be destroyed. This means that a created thing can not be said to exist by necessity. If souls do not exist by necessity, then your argument that hell must exist by necessity has a faulty premise.
2. You don’t have Catholic beliefs. It’s OK, most humans don’t. Welcome to the club.

No religions are “travesties” unless they encourage people to be evil. Having wrong theological opinions is bad, but I think we have more pressing problems in this world no? For instance, you agree with most of your Christian brothers and sisters that abortion and indifference to the poor are abominations right? Even though you think their religious traditions are erroneous or unfounded, at least they got those things right! I agree with Catholics on those things too. Though we all disagree about theology, we need to huddle together to help this world at least obey God’s basic commandments! I’ve always wanted to use this emoticon: :grouphug:

 

[PRmerger]

Let’s break this down.

Are souls created? If “yes,” go to 1) below. If “no,” go to 2) below.

1. What is created can be destroyed.

What is material can be destroyed.

That is, created material can be destroyed.