Is eternal suffering pointless?

[PumpkinCookie]

OK well I have waited for, and will continue to await argument or evidence in support of the idea that souls are necessarily immortal. Evidence to the contrary:

1. Though we are created in the image of God, it does not follow necessarily that we share his divine attributes in whole or in part. Space dust is also created by God, and yet shares only in existence and bears no other similarities to God. We are manifestly not omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good, or omnipresent. Though we are endowed with will (the image of omnipotence), reason (the image of omniscience), the desire for the good (the image of omnibenevolence), and presence (the image of omni-presence), it does not follow that we exist by necessity forever. Rather, it would seem that the “image” of necessary existence would be contingent existence. Indeed, we are said to be created ex nihilo at a particular point in time, which would be impossible if we exist by necessity, as Socrates argued. Of course, it is possible we exist by necessity if the universe is totally determined, but it still does not follow that we exist infinitely.
2. We are unable to destroy things with no components, but it does not follow that God is unable to destroy things without components, for neither are we able to create things with no components but God is able to do so. We have no experience of either the creation or destruction of anything ex nihilo, but this is precisely how we describe God’s creative acts. It does not follow that God is necessarily required to continuously create things out of nothing, for that would mean that he is either not omnipotent or not free. Also, it is manifestly false because otherwise the universe would contain infinite objects. We know from observation that the universe does not contain infinite objects, therefore God has evidently not created every possible thing. We must conclude that he is either unable or does not desire to create every possible object. We know for certain he is not required to create every object. We are some of those objects, and he is not required to continuously create us infinitely. Therefore, we do not exist indefinitely by necessity.

From scripture:

Read the Psalms. Read the Prophets. Both are full of warnings to the “wicked” and other evildoers that the punishment for their actions is judgment by God resulting in death. I don’t have time to list all of the quotes, because there are so many. I will start just at the beginning of the book of Psalms. By the way, this is from the Chabad translation directly from the Hebrew into modern English. In order:

1. “For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked shall perish.” 1:6
2. “Arm yourselves with purity lest He become angry and you perish in the way, for in a moment His wrath will be kindled; the praises of all who take refuge in Him.” 2:12
3. “You hate all workers of iniquity. You destroy speakers of lies; the Lord abhors a man of blood and deceit.” 5:6-7
4. “May evil destroy the wicked, and may You establish the righteous, for the righteous God tests the hearts and the reins.” 7:10
5. “For You have performed my judgment and my cause; You sat on the throne, O Judge of righteousness. You rebuked nations, You destroyed a wicked man; You *erased *their name forever and ever.” 9:5-6
6. “May the wicked return to the grave, all nations who forget God.” 9:18
7. “For the needy shall not be forgotten forever, neither shall the hope of the poor be lost to eternity. Arise, O Lord; let man have no power. May the nations be judged for Your anger. O Lord, place mastery over them; let the nations know that they forever are mortal man.” 9: 19-21

[all emphasis is mine]

Just from the first 9 chapters of Psalms we can see the juxtaposition of the eternal life of the righteous with the utter destruction of the wicked. To disobey God is to forfeit our lives, in my opinion. He will not allow our rebellion forever!

 

[tonyrey]

OK well I have waited for, and will continue to await argument or evidence in support of the idea that souls are necessarily immortal. Evidence to the contrary:

1. Though we are created in the image of God, it does not follow necessarily that we share his divine attributes in whole or in part. Space dust is also created by God, and yet shares only in existence and bears no other similarities to God. We are manifestly not omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good, or omnipresent. Though we are endowed with will (the image of omnipotence), reason (the image of omniscience), the desire for the good (the image of omnibenevolence), and presence (the image of omni-presence), it does not follow that we exist by necessity forever. Rather, it would seem that the “image” of necessary existence would be contingent existence. Indeed, we are said to be created ex nihilo at a particular point in time, which would be impossible if we exist by necessity, as Socrates argued. Of course, it is possible we exist by necessity if the universe is totally determined, but it still does not follow that we exist infinitely.
2. We are unable to destroy things with no components, but it does not follow that God is unable to destroy things without components, for neither are we able to create things with no components but God is able to do so. We have no experience of either the creation or destruction of anything ex nihilo, but this is precisely how we describe God’s creative acts. It does not follow that God is necessarily required to continuously create things out of nothing, for that would mean that he is either not omnipotent or not free. Also, it is manifestly false because otherwise the universe would contain infinite objects. We know from observation that the universe does not contain infinite objects, therefore God has evidently not created every possible thing. We must conclude that he is either unable or does not desire to create every possible object. We know for certain he is not required to create every object. We are some of those objects, and he is not required to continuously create us infinitely. Therefore, we do not exist indefinitely by necessity.

From scripture:

Read the Psalms. Read the Prophets. Both are full of warnings to the “wicked” and other evildoers that the punishment for their actions is judgment by God resulting in death. I don’t have time to list all of the quotes, because there are so many. I will start just at the beginning of the book of Psalms. By the way, this is from the Chabad translation directly from the Hebrew into modern English. In order:

1. “For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked shall perish.” 1:6
2. “Arm yourselves with purity lest He become angry and you perish in the way, for in a moment His wrath will be kindled; the praises of all who take refuge in Him.” 2:12
3. “You hate all workers of iniquity. You destroy speakers of lies; the Lord abhors a man of blood and deceit.” 5:6-7
4. “May evil destroy the wicked, and may You establish the righteous, for the righteous God tests the hearts and the reins.” 7:10
5. “For You have performed my judgment and my cause; You sat on the throne, O Judge of righteousness. You rebuked nations, You destroyed a wicked man; You *erased *their name forever and ever.” 9:5-6
6. “May the wicked return to the grave, all nations who forget God.” 9:18
7. “For the needy shall not be forgotten forever, neither shall the hope of the poor be lost to eternity. Arise, O Lord; let man have no power. May the nations be judged for Your anger. O Lord, place mastery over them; let the nations know that they forever are mortal man.” 9: 19-21

[all emphasis is mine]

Just from the first 9 chapters of Psalms we can see the juxtaposition of the eternal life of the righteous with the utter destruction of the wicked. To disobey God is to forfeit our lives, in my opinion. He will not allow our rebellion forever!

How do you explain this:

42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Maccabees+12%3A39-45&version=DRA

 

[PumpkinCookie]

There’s a whiff of a “confidence trick” in this whole business of hell and souls…

I don’t like it.
But I wouldn’t, would I?

I’m not sure it is fair to call religion a “confidence trick.” To be sure, I think the original sin/hell double-bind with the only solution of sacramental grace is reminiscent of “snake-oil” pitches. But, I don’t think religious belief in general is just a big con game.

The perpetrators of a con know they are deceiving others, and do it for financial gain. The creators of religions are simply mistaken, and although they may benefit from religious practices and proliferation, these benefits are quite minimal, especially today. Maybe back in the 7th century the creators of Islam lived large on their conquests, but today it seems less so. Does anyone want to live in the Islamic state? Are they having a good time over there? Doubt it!

Further, maybe priests and bishops “lived large” off of the peasantry in Europe from about 1100-1500 or so, but today even the most obscene financial excess and abuses in churches of various kinds pale in comparison to Wall Street or the corporate culture. Yes, the Vatican bank was deeply corrupt, but they’re reforming it right now.

Basically, I very much doubt anyone becomes a priest to trick the “suckers” into supporting them for life. Maybe the leaders of certain bogus cults do this (Creflo Dollar?? Joel Osteen??) but I seriously doubt this motive exists in mainstream religion.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

How do you explain this:
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Maccabees+12%3A39-45&version=DRA

Never said the righteous couldn’t live forever, quite the contrary!

I believe God will sustain the righteous forever because he is merciful, good, and wonderful, not because they exist by necessity.

I believe God will utterly crush and destroy the wicked because he is just, good, and powerful, and because they do not exist by necessity.

I am not advocating “Saducee-ism.” In fact, it was the Pharisees who taught that people would experience endless torment in hell. Research it. The truth is in the middle.

 

[pocaracas]

I’m not sure it is fair to call religion a “confidence trick.” To be sure, I think the original sin/hell double-bind with the only solution of sacramental grace is reminiscent of “snake-oil” pitches. But, I don’t think religious belief in general is just a big con game.

The perpetrators of a con know they are deceiving others, and do it for financial gain. The creators of religions are simply mistaken, and although they may benefit from religious practices and proliferation, these benefits are quite minimal, especially today. Maybe back in the 7th century the creators of Islam lived large on their conquests, but today it seems less so. Does anyone want to live in the Islamic state? Are they having a good time over there? Doubt it!

Further, maybe priests and bishops “lived large” off of the peasantry in Europe from about 1100-1500 or so, but today even the most obscene financial excess and abuses in churches of various kinds pale in comparison to Wall Street or the corporate culture. Yes, the Vatican bank was deeply corrupt, but they’re reforming it right now.

Basically, I very much doubt anyone becomes a priest to trick the “suckers” into supporting them for life. Maybe the leaders of certain bogus cults do this (Creflo Dollar?? Joel Osteen??) but I seriously doubt this motive exists in mainstream religion.

Oh, I agree with you.
I see little to gain by the clerics currently desiring to continue the status quo.
They are products of that indoctrination business themselves.
The gain, now, seems to be more people thinking the same thing, or believing the same thing.
The loss is very well established… would you want to risk such a loss?

The new cults, on the other hand… yeah… some of them are in it for the buck…

 

[Abba]

Please back off the priests, otherwise, the conversation will become too unpleasant for me. I ask a little respect. Thank you.

Pocaracas, I do want to respond to you but right now I have to go pick up a rented car and I want to conquer the world with it today and get my moneys worth. BB.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Please back off the priests, otherwise, the conversation will become too unpleasant for me. I ask a little respect. Thank you.

Pocaracas, I do want to respond to you but right now I have to go pick up a rented car and I want to conquer the world with it today and get my moneys worth. BB.

No one is attacking priests. I specifically defended them from the potential criticism that they are engaged in a “con” game. Priests, and leaders of all religions are no different from anyone else, and they’re just trying to do their jobs. I do not believe more than a tiny, tiny fraction of them are engaged in intentional deception for the purpose of financial gain, the sine qua non of a “con.”

Joel Osteen and Creflo Dollar are not priests. I do harbor suspicion about the motives of TV “prosperity gospel” preachers, however. I would consider it fair to suggest that they are engaged in something very like a “con.”

Have fun with your car!

 

[OneSheep]

Never said the righteous couldn’t live forever, quite the contrary!

I believe God will sustain the righteous forever because he is merciful, good, and wonderful, not because they exist by necessity.

I believe God will utterly crush and destroy the wicked because he is just, good, and powerful, and because they do not exist by necessity.

I am not advocating “Saducee-ism.” In fact, it was the Pharisees who taught that people would experience endless torment in hell. Research it. The truth is in the middle.

Hello Pumpkin Cookie!

Did I hear you say that you and your wife share this name? Has there been a switch in the voice here?

If you are talking about God crushing and destroying, then you are referring to a wrathful God. If God is wrathful, then he is subject to human emotion and capacities. Can a human put another person in hell forever? In a way, yes, a person could possibly put another into eternal torment and block the other out of his mind altogether. The person would be blind, but it could happen.

However, God is omniscient, and would not be able to ignore the person in torment. Indeed, God is omnibenevolent, and would not subject a person to eternal torture, as you have accurately stated. Instead, if a person were to experience an eternal hell, it would be their own choice to do so. If there is any “punishment” at all, then such punishment would be a reparation.

So, God crushing anyone because He is just, good, and powerful? This is a contradiction with God’s unconditional love and forgiveness. God’s justice was communicated from the cross when he said, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

“God crushing” sounds more like the very “god” that you were rejecting in the first place.

Straighten me out here. I’m confused.

Thanks.

 

[pocaracas]

Please back off the priests, otherwise, the conversation will become too unpleasant for me. I ask a little respect. Thank you.

Pocaracas, I do want to respond to you but right now I have to go pick up a rented car and I want to conquer the world with it today and get my moneys worth. BB.

Hehe! Enjoy the car!
A friend of mine says this about rentals: anything goes, except scratches.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Hello Pumpkin Cookie!

Did I hear you say that you and your wife share this name? Has there been a switch in the voice here?

If you are talking about God crushing and destroying, then you are referring to a wrathful God. If God is wrathful, then he is subject to human emotion and capacities. Can a human put another person in hell forever? In a way, yes, a person could possibly put another into eternal torment and block the other out of his mind altogether. The person would be blind, but it could happen.

However, God is omniscient, and would not be able to ignore the person in torment. Indeed, God is omnibenevolent, and would not subject a person to eternal torture, as you have accurately stated. Instead, if a person were to experience an eternal hell, it would be their own choice to do so. If there is any “punishment” at all, then such punishment would be a reparation.

So, God crushing anyone because He is just, good, and powerful? This is a contradiction with God’s unconditional love and forgiveness. God’s justice was communicated from the cross when he said, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

“God crushing” sounds more like the very “god” that you were rejecting in the first place.

Straighten me out here. I’m confused.

Thanks.

For clarity: my wife no longer participates. She posted one or two things several years ago. Since then, all of these posts are generated by me. It is interesting that identity is so important to discussion. I get the feeling that you are an older lady. Is that true? Possibly a former sister, maybe even a current one. Well, it doesn’t matter at all. If what you say is well-reasoned, let us accept it!

“Crushing” and “destroying” have no such emotional connotation. You are reading the emotion into the text. God destroys the wicked not because he is angry, but because it is the right thing to do. They desire it, and deserve it. Just who are these “wicked?” Are any of us 100% “wicked?” I doubt it. Let’s hope not!

I do not believe God said any such thing from any such cross.

What I’m rejecting is a God who does things for no reason. I’m rejecting a God who sanctions gratuitous evil. Allowing very evil people who hate him to go out of existence is the result of neither. Torturing them forever, however, would be both.

 

[OneSheep]

For clarity: my wife no longer participates. She posted one or two things several years ago. Since then, all of these posts are generated by me. It is interesting that identity is so important to discussion. I get the feeling that you are an older lady. Is that true? Possibly a former sister, maybe even a current one. Well, it doesn’t matter at all. If what you say is well-reasoned, let us accept it!

“Crushing” and “destroying” have no such emotional connotation. You are reading the emotion into the text. God destroys the wicked not because he is angry, but because it is the right thing to do. They desire it, and deserve it. Just who are these “wicked?” Are any of us 100% “wicked?” I doubt it. Let’s hope not!

Let’s see here. Is there a person who does wicked things that desires to be crushed? Well, if they are feeling guilty enough, yes. But then, if they are feeling guilty enough, you are probably changing your mind about someone “deserving” a crushing, right?

Jesus told us the “right thing to do” was to love and forgive. He did not tell us to refrain from protecting ourselves, nor did He tell us to withold consequence from evildoers, but he did tell us to forgive from the heart. Was this part of your catechesis? If so, is this part of the Christianity that you are rejecting?

Is any one of us “wicked” at all?

I do not believe God said any such thing from any such cross.

Oh, this is part of the Christianity you are rejecting. Okay, how do you feel about God loving and forgiving unconditionally? Feel free to leave Jesus out of your answer.

What I’m rejecting is a God who does things for no reason. I’m rejecting a God who sanctions gratuitous evil. Allowing very evil people who hate him to go out of existence is the result of neither. Torturing them forever, however, would be both.

I think that what you are saying is that forgiveness is the same as sanctioning. This is not the case. Again, was such equation of these part of your catechesis? I am beginning to think that you may have been exposed to a lot more untruth than what you have revealed so far.

Does any human ever do “gratuitous evil”? If so, please provide an example. You see, our anthropology is just as important as our theology, bro!

Thanks, this is getting even more engaging!

P.S.: A Sister? :ehh: You can keep imagining that if it helps, though.

No, just an ordinary bloke. Married 33 years to the best woman in the world. She is my inspiration, my source of deeper knowing.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Let’s see here. Is there a person who does wicked things that desires to be crushed? Well, if they are feeling guilty enough, yes. But then, if they are feeling guilty enough, you are probably changing your mind about someone “deserving” a crushing, right?

Not sure what you mean. I think the desire for sin and death are the same. The sinner loves death and yearns for it, in my opinion. When we reject God, we reject life. To fully and completely reject God is to fully and completely reject life.

Jesus told us the “right thing to do” was to love and forgive. He did not tell us to refrain from protecting ourselves, nor did He tell us to withold consequence from evildoers, but he did tell us to forgive from the heart. Was this part of your catechesis? If so, is this part of the Christianity that you are rejecting?

You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.

The author of Matthew thinks Jesus says to withhold consequences from evildoers and allow evildoers to do more evil to us. He says this, after referring to proportional justice. This says nothing about God at all, and is merely life-advice and opinion. We could all stand to be more merciful rather than constantly grumbling about how unfairly we are treated. Excellent advice. I agree that we should forgive others.

God does not need to forgive. He is above offense. He always does what is right. We are unable to wrong him, hurt him, or damage him. When we sin, we offend, wound, and hurt ourselves and others. God will not tolerate this forever. He will put an end to it someday!

Is any one of us “wicked” at all?

Such extremes coming from Christians! Some say we’re born totally depraved while others wonder if anyone has ever really been evil at all. Maybe the truth is in the middle?

Oh, this is part of the Christianity you are rejecting. Okay, how do you feel about God loving and forgiving unconditionally? Feel free to leave Jesus out of your answer.

God does not need to forgive, we cannot harm him. God always forgives us for harming others, but he will not stop us from destroying ourselves. God loves unconditionally, and sometimes the loving thing to do is to put us out of our misery. I reject Christianity for many reasons, too many to detail here and now. Extremely brief summary: it is incoherent, it doesn’t explain the world, it contradicts the Torah, and it is not supported by historical facts or prophecies.

I think that what you are saying is that forgiveness is the same as sanctioning. This is not the case. Again, was such equation of these part of your catechesis? I am beginning to think that you may have been exposed to a lot more untruth than what you have revealed so far.

I don’t understand what you mean. No one can “sanction” evil, most especially not God, because whatever he sanctions is not evil, by definition. When God forgives us, he allows us to make amends, repent, etc. If we do not desire forgiveness, if we do not desire to make amends or repent, then we die.

Does any human ever do “gratuitous evil”? If so, please provide an example. You see, our anthropology is just as important as our theology, bro!

We don’t have the ability to know whether humans commit gratuitous evil because we are not omniscient. This same lack of knowledge does not apply to hell though, because we can’t even imagine a possible justification. Hell exists for its own sake, apparently. It is gratuitous. I don’t have a complete anthropology to offer you. I believe the vast majority of human beings desire to be happy and do what they think is right most of the time. I believe we are born innocent and become holy or evil only by our choices. How’s that, bro?

Thanks, this is getting even more engaging!

P.S.: A Sister? :ehh: You can keep imagining that if it helps, though.

No, just an ordinary bloke. Married 33 years to the best woman in the world. She is my inspiration, my source of deeper knowing.

OK well hey, much of what you say I’ve heard before from sisters I’ve known. They’re all fantastic people, though not so concerned with logical consistency. I have thought for a long time that being kind and loving others is superior to any amount of clear and sober thinking though. Congrats on your long and evidently good marriage . What a blessing!

 

[PRmerger]

I have several arguments from reason and scripture suggesting that souls are not necessarily immortal, but I will wait to offer them to give you a chance to substantiate your claim.

Let’s not use Scripture because all heresies can be backed by Scripture.

I would, however, like to see your arguments from reason why the soul doesn’t have to be immortal.

Even if you are right, we’ve still failed to uncover a purpose for hell, but we can at least suppose it exists by necessity.

Its purpose has already been limned: to provide a “place” for those who find God’s love odious.

As far as why it’s eternal–that is, why doesn’t God simply give an evil person one thousand years of torment until he learns his lesson, and then he can have heaven as his reward…well, since heaven is eternal, it doesn’t really seem fair to give an evil person essentially the same reward as a good person, right?

 

[Protestor]

PR did you follow me over here? Or is this title click bait?

 

[PRmerger]

PR did you follow me over here? Or is this title click bait?

No, didn’t follow you. Sorry.

Don’t know what you mean by your second question.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

PR did you follow me over here? Or is this title click bait?

One of the moderators created this thread and gave it that title. Absolutely click bait!! The ads are considerably different than other click bait websites though:

http://s3.postimg.org/nb87tuphf/Screenshot_from_2015_10_27_19_28_02.png

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Let’s not use Scripture because all heresies can be backed by Scripture.

I would, however, like to see your arguments from reason why the soul doesn’t have to be immortal.

Post # 838 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13391955&postcount=838

Its purpose has already been limned: to provide a “place” for those who find God’s love odious.

As far as why it’s eternal–that is, why doesn’t God simply give an evil person one thousand years of torment until he learns his lesson, and then he can have heaven as his reward…well, since heaven is eternal, it doesn’t really seem fair to give an evil person essentially the same reward as a good person, right?

You know, I often pick up a new vocabulary word when I read your posts. I’ve never heard “limned” used before today. Thanks!

It has been shown several times on this thread why endless hell isn’t a fair solution, much less the only fair solution. If you have something new to contribute I’m happy to engage but I’ve already been down this path. Read the first dozen pages of this thread; my interlocutors pretty much covered this controversy by that point.

 

[PRmerger]

It has been shown several times on this thread why endless hell isn’t a fair solution, much less the only fair solution. If you have something new to contribute I’m happy to engage but I’ve already been down this path. Read the first dozen pages of this thread; my interlocutors pretty much covered this controversy by that point.

I think you would probably just refute my post, if you could.

 

[PRmerger]

OK well I have waited for, and will continue to await argument or evidence in support of the idea that souls are necessarily immortal. Evidence to the contrary:

1. Though we are created in the image of God, it does not follow necessarily that we share his divine attributes in whole or in part. Space dust is also created by God, and yet shares only in existence and bears no other similarities to God. We are manifestly not omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good, or omnipresent. Though we are endowed with will (the image of omnipotence), reason (the image of omniscience), the desire for the good (the image of omnibenevolence), and presence (the image of omni-presence), it does not follow that we exist by necessity forever. Rather, it would seem that the “image” of necessary existence would be contingent existence. Indeed, we are said to be created ex nihilo at a particular point in time, which would be impossible if we exist by necessity, as Socrates argued. Of course, it is possible we exist by necessity if the universe is totally determined, but it still does not follow that we exist infinitely.
2. We are unable to destroy things with no components, but it does not follow that God is unable to destroy things without components, for neither are we able to create things with no components but God is able to do so. We have no experience of either the creation or destruction of anything ex nihilo, but this is precisely how we describe God’s creative acts. It does not follow that God is necessarily required to continuously create things out of nothing, for that would mean that he is either not omnipotent or not free. Also, it is manifestly false because otherwise the universe would contain infinite objects. We know from observation that the universe does not contain infinite objects, therefore God has evidently not created every possible thing. We must conclude that he is either unable or does not desire to create every possible object. We know for certain he is not required to create every object. We are some of those objects, and he is not required to continuously create us infinitely. Therefore, we do not exist indefinitely by necessity.

From scripture:

Read the Psalms. Read the Prophets. Both are full of warnings to the “wicked” and other evildoers that the punishment for their actions is judgment by God resulting in death. I don’t have time to list all of the quotes, because there are so many. I will start just at the beginning of the book of Psalms. By the way, this is from the Chabad translation directly from the Hebrew into modern English. In order:

1. “For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked shall perish.” 1:6
2. “Arm yourselves with purity lest He become angry and you perish in the way, for in a moment His wrath will be kindled; the praises of all who take refuge in Him.” 2:12
3. “You hate all workers of iniquity. You destroy speakers of lies; the Lord abhors a man of blood and deceit.” 5:6-7
4. “May evil destroy the wicked, and may You establish the righteous, for the righteous God tests the hearts and the reins.” 7:10
5. “For You have performed my judgment and my cause; You sat on the throne, O Judge of righteousness. You rebuked nations, You destroyed a wicked man; You *erased *their name forever and ever.” 9:5-6
6. “May the wicked return to the grave, all nations who forget God.” 9:18
7. “For the needy shall not be forgotten forever, neither shall the hope of the poor be lost to eternity. Arise, O Lord; let man have no power. May the nations be judged for Your anger. O Lord, place mastery over them; let the nations know that they forever are mortal man.” 9: 19-21

[all emphasis is mine]

Just from the first 9 chapters of Psalms we can see the juxtaposition of the eternal life of the righteous with the utter destruction of the wicked. To disobey God is to forfeit our lives, in my opinion. He will not allow our rebellion forever!

Regarding Scripture, all of that can be dismissed.

The conclusion that the soul can be annihilated is testament to what happens when one reads the Scriptures without the lens of the Faith which gave us the Scriptures.

You get all sorts of bizarre interpretations of the Bible.

As far as reason telling you that the soul doesn’t necessarily have to be immortal…well, I think you haven’t addressed the fact that we are made in God’s image (while space dust isn’t)…and that means that when we reach our proper perfection, we have immortal souls, as God is immortal.

And at death, we reach our proper perfection.

 

[OneSheep]

Not sure what you mean. I think the desire for sin and death are the same. The sinner loves death and yearns for it, in my opinion. When we reject God, we reject life. To fully and completely reject God is to fully and completely reject life.

Hmmm. Have you considered the possiblity that no one ever knowingly and willingly rejects God? (my thread)

The author of Matthew thinks Jesus says to withhold consequences from evildoers and allow evildoers to do more evil to us. He says this, after referring to proportional justice. This says nothing about God at all, and is merely life-advice and opinion. We could all stand to be more merciful rather than constantly grumbling about how unfairly we are treated. Excellent advice. I agree that we should forgive others.

Can you tell me the verse about “proportional justice”? The idea with “turning the cheek” is to change the situation, to free ourselves from the natural inclination to want revenge. Jesus calls us to the supernatural, a perfection that has us rise above our natural response. When we react to violence with violence, we are behaving as machines.

God does not need to forgive. He is above offense. He always does what is right. We are unable to wrong him, hurt him, or damage him. When we sin, we offend, wound, and hurt ourselves and others. God will not tolerate this forever. He will put an end to it someday!

I would agree that if God ever took offense, He did so before He even created us, and forgave us before He hit the “create” button. God is putting an end to it, encouraging us to forgive. The rest is all the end-of-the-world stuff, right? I don’t put much weight on the end-of-the-world stuff.

Such extremes coming from Christians! Some say we’re born totally depraved while others wonder if anyone has ever really been evil at all. Maybe the truth is in the middle?

Not the truth as I see it. You have spoken about a person “becoming” evil, but you are saying your use of the label has nothing to do with resentment. But seriously, do a person’s actions actually change anything about their existence? If so, what? To me, it is more like the behavior is a manifestation of the blindness or ignorance occurring in the perpetrator of the bad action.

God does not need to forgive, we cannot harm him. God always forgives us for harming others, but he will not stop us from destroying ourselves. God loves unconditionally, and sometimes the loving thing to do is to put us out of our misery. I reject Christianity for many reasons, too many to detail here and now. Extremely brief summary: it is incoherent, it doesn’t explain the world, it contradicts the Torah, and it is not supported by historical facts or prophecies.

Well, in your view it is incoherent and doesn’t explain the world. The rest, well, more assertions that can be argued. No need for that now though, we’re sidetracked enough!

I don’t understand what you mean. No one can “sanction” evil, most especially not God, because whatever he sanctions is not evil, by definition. When God forgives us, he allows us to make amends, repent, etc. If we do not desire forgiveness, if we do not desire to make amends or repent, then we die.

I thought you were implying that forgiveness is the same as withholding consequence.

If a person does not desire forgiveness, they have not incorporated something into their conscience. We die? Would God let someone “die” if they do not know what they are doing, that their conscience is malformed or they are blind?

We don’t have the ability to know whether humans commit gratuitous evil because we are not omniscient. This same lack of knowledge does not apply to hell though, because we can’t even imagine a possible justification. Hell exists for its own sake, apparently. It is gratuitous. I don’t have a complete anthropology to offer you. I believe the vast majority of human beings desire to be happy and do what they think is right most of the time. I believe we are born innocent and become holy or evil only by our choices. How’s that, bro?

Just as you cannot imagine a justification for eternal suffering, I cannot imagine a human committing gratuitous evil. Hell would have a purpose if it is a bootcamp. Humans have a purpose for what they do, always. Sometimes we judge the purpose as “evil”, but it is still a purpose. Can you come up with an example of gratuitous evil by a human?

Are you open to the possibility that a person “becoming” evil is only a perception? An illusion?

OK well hey, much of what you say I’ve heard before from sisters I’ve known. They’re all fantastic people, though not so concerned with logical consistency. I have thought for a long time that being kind and loving others is superior to any amount of clear and sober thinking though. Congrats on your long and evidently good marriage . What a blessing!

Thanks!

Hey, wait a minute… are you saying I don’t have logical consistency? I saw that.