Is eternal suffering pointless?

[arte]

Hell is the endless extension of a life of nothing but misery and hopelessness made worse by the fact of relentless external physical torment as well as relentless spiritual torment. Many of the authors mentioned in my previous posts detailed the serious reasons to doubt the value of life itself, and that is without considering the possibility of endless hell!

If Schopenhauer thought this life ultimately wasn’t worth it, imagine his opinion if this life were extended infinitely and made ever so much worse. If Ivan Karamazov wanted to reject god(s) because he allows the innocent to suffer (temporarily) on behalf of the guilty, imagine his rejection if he allows most of humanity to suffer endlessly for no discernible reason. If Kafka thought this life was absurd and meaningless, how much more meaningless if we are born guilty and doomed to eternal punishment? Our situation is worse and more absurd than The Trial! Sartre thought nothing could take away our freedom, not even being chained and paralyzed. He may well have thought that even endless hell couldn’t break our freedom: but it would seem so! Hell is much worse than the Nazi concentration camps in which Sarte suffered. Hell is an endless concentration/torture camp run by god(s). Not even Sartre could claim freedom in this place, I think! Even the most courageous and noble Nietzschean ubermensch would be crushed by the sheer terror and hopelessness of endless physical and spiritual torment.

Consider what an abomination hell must be! Before it, our lives collapse into something to be detested. The souls in hell surely beg and scream for annihilation as the physical tortures created for them from the beginning of the universe by god(s) consumes their flesh only to be miraculously restored in relentless, unbearable pain and suffering. Talk about a Freudian Todestrieb! Think of all the people suffering, hopeless, crying out for death only to receive more pain and violent suffering.

Imagine the worst disasters in humanity history. Imagine the Soviet gulags, genocides, plagues, crucifixions, North Korea, etc. Imagine the tremendous suffering of all of those people, then make it relentless, then make it miraculous, then make it endless, then make it designed and sustained directly by god(s).

Now, imagine the architects and directors of those disasters. Hitler, Stalin, Pol-Pot, Mao Zedong, Kim Jong-Il, Saddam Hussein, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, Osama Bin Laden, etc.

Are your three gods like them? Are those their compatriots? Are they just an infinitely greater version of them? Do you call them “good?”

Endless hell cannot be the work of one who is “good.” Believe what you want of course, but consider:

-Thomas Paine

This post “hits the nail on the head” concerning hell and with it the incorrect descriptions of God’s justice. Hitler, Stalin, Pol-Pot et al and their reigns of terror are a walk in the park compared to God and hell. Can’t you all see how wrong eternal brutal torture/torment/punishment is? No loving human parent would do this. Only a sadistic evil being would do such a thing. Is this really God?

 

[OneSheep]

For years I used to pray, on my way up to receive communion “God, if this is idolatry and blasphemy, please forgive me!” This prayer became a ritual for me. I used to imagine my particular judgement where God would condemn me for practicing a false religion and I would argue that I had been tricked by a powerful and convincing organization that applied pressure to me from birth! I figured he would forgive me if I made a good argument. I now understand that my conscience had been telling me to leave the Church for years and years, and I ignored it based on the advice of priests. Once it really hit home that priests are not God and they are not going come out to defend me while I stand before God, I had the courage to leave.

Hi PumkinCookie,

On the one hand, your conscience was telling you to leave. On the other hand, when you hear a different theological approach, you seem to reject it as confusing or not worth considering. That is okay, but I am also hearing an underlying “nope” to being identified as a Catholic in any way shape or form. You have taken on a new identity, and that identity is the guiding factor in your approach to faith. Is that a fair assessment on my part?

Instead of, perhaps, finding a theology that may have even shown you that your own sense of “blasphemy” was not so, but actually legitimate Catholic teaching, something happened that turned your affiliation in a big way, at least that is what I am hearing. For example, was your turn from Catholicism also a turn from conservatism?

My expectations are based on the story they tell about themselves. They say the most hubristic thing imaginable: “We speak for God, and we are always right.” If they said “We are here to give you potentially helpful guidance or advice,” I would have lower expectations.

If they were to say the latter, for many it would take away from the voice of conviction, and not provide the voice of security desired by so many of us at different points in our lives. People with shattered lives need a secure voice to follow, nothing waffling, nothing “potentially” helpful. Remember the importance of a pastoral approach. As a traditionalist, how would you have heard a presentation of some aspect of faith as “potentially helpful” that before was presented as absolute truth? I think it may have something to do with the era we are in and cultural and scientific influences too. I’m like you, I prefer my truths delivered with a bit more humility, but that has a lot to do with my science background.

You have the gift of having experienced a range of perspectives. Because of this gift, you have the knowledge base to understand a variety of points of view. However, the gift is lost on you if you cannot think back and enter into what was your traditionalist mind. If your statement today is, “yes, I was a traditionalist, but I was absolutely stupid”, isn’t that more of an assertion of who is the outgroup?

You see, your experience lends itself to be affiliated (eventually) to people of two opposing views. When I go to receive communion, I am making a statement (in my own mind) with whom am I affiliated. With who? Do I include my family, my friends, my community, my parish, all Roman Catholics? Well, that’s a start. Do I include people of different ideologies, “conservatives”, “liberals”, “environmentalists”, “capitalists”? Do I include those Protestants? How about people of other religions? How about people of no religion? How about criminals, homeless, and psychopaths? How about people of Isis? How about non-people, mammals, fishes, etc., heck, the whole of creation?

So much to include in one little piece of bread.

LOL! I understand what you mean. What if the wrench shouted “No, hit harder, no you aren’t doing it right, if it hurts that means you are doing it right, try again, try harder!” That is exactly what it felt like. I knew these beliefs caused me so much pain and angst, but everyone kept telling me to keep beating myself or else God would really punish me thoroughly and effectively when I died!

Yes, but eventually you put the wrench down. If now you resent some of those people, you have picked up a new wrench!

Thanks, it is good to hear your story.

 

[Abba]

This post “hits the nail on the head” concerning hell and with it the incorrect descriptions of God’s justice. Hitler, Stalin, Pol-Pot et al and their reigns of terror are a walk in the park compared to God and hell. Can’t you all see how wrong eternal brutal torture/torment/punishment is? No loving human parent would do this. Only a sadistic evil being would do such a thing. Is this really God?

What about if some powerful organization decided to kill all those who are destined to hell now. I don’t know what the number would be 1, 100, 1,000, 1,000,000 … How do you think people would react? And do you think those destined would run to the gallows cheering?

They would fight for their life and many who are not destined will begin to protest, rebel, and do all possible to save their brethren. If people out of love for their brothers and sisters would speak out and say they have a right to live, let them live their life out etc… Why is it so difficult to understand that God who is Love, would out of respect for their dignity and with His immense love for His children - has in His wisdom decided that He will not destroy them but set them apart?

The people that are destined to hell are not killing themselves off right now, they are enjoying their existence. God will let them continue to exist in the afterlife but away from the banquet.

The exorcist Fortea says that some people experience a taste of hell here on earth. This makes a lot of sense to me because we can experience a taste of heaven. So why not hell? He says it is like an ember in their heart, you see them smiling and pretending everything is fine and dandy in their evil life but, they do not have internal peace and feel a spiritual burning.

Don’t blame evil on God, blame it on Satan. He was the one who fell in love with himself and wanted to be like God and messed things up by a clear misuse of his free will.

 

[PRmerger]

This post “hits the nail on the head” concerning hell and with it the incorrect descriptions of God’s justice. Hitler, Stalin, Pol-Pot et al and their reigns of terror are a walk in the park compared to God and hell. Can’t you all see how wrong eternal brutal torture/torment/punishment is? No loving human parent would do this. Only a sadistic evil being would do such a thing. Is this really God?

It is the work of a loving God who provides a place for those who find His Love odious.

They have turned their back on Love.

And since the soul is immortal, hell is eternal.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Hi PumkinCookie,

On the one hand, your conscience was telling you to leave. On the other hand, when you hear a different theological approach, you seem to reject it as confusing or not worth considering. That is okay, but I am also hearing an underlying “nope” to being identified as a Catholic in any way shape or form. You have taken on a new identity, and that identity is the guiding factor in your approach to faith. Is that a fair assessment on my part?

Instead of, perhaps, finding a theology that may have even shown you that your own sense of “blasphemy” was not so, but actually legitimate Catholic teaching, something happened that turned your affiliation in a big way, at least that is what I am hearing. For example, was your turn from Catholicism also a turn from conservatism?

If they were to say the latter, for many it would take away from the voice of conviction, and not provide the voice of security desired by so many of us at different points in our lives. People with shattered lives need a secure voice to follow, nothing waffling, nothing “potentially” helpful. Remember the importance of a pastoral approach. As a traditionalist, how would you have heard a presentation of some aspect of faith as “potentially helpful” that before was presented as absolute truth? I think it may have something to do with the era we are in and cultural and scientific influences too. I’m like you, I prefer my truths delivered with a bit more humility, but that has a lot to do with my science background.

You have the gift of having experienced a range of perspectives. Because of this gift, you have the knowledge base to understand a variety of points of view. However, the gift is lost on you if you cannot think back and enter into what was your traditionalist mind. If your statement today is, “yes, I was a traditionalist, but I was absolutely stupid”, isn’t that more of an assertion of who is the outgroup?

You see, your experience lends itself to be affiliated (eventually) to people of two opposing views. When I go to receive communion, I am making a statement (in my own mind) with whom am I affiliated. With who? Do I include my family, my friends, my community, my parish, all Roman Catholics? Well, that’s a start. Do I include people of different ideologies, “conservatives”, “liberals”, “environmentalists”, “capitalists”? Do I include those Protestants? How about people of other religions? How about people of no religion? How about criminals, homeless, and psychopaths? How about people of Isis? How about non-people, mammals, fishes, etc., heck, the whole of creation?

So much to include in one little piece of bread.

Yes, but eventually you put the wrench down. If now you resent some of those people, you have picked up a new wrench!

Thanks, it is good to hear your story.

I’ve thought for a while about how to respond to this. I can’t respond to you without getting far off-topic. If we were face-to-face and had a lot of time I would happily meander a path of dialogue with you, but this is frowned upon on an internet forum. I’d buy you a drink of your choice and I’m sure we’d have a fantastic conversation, but this tiny thread is not the place, I think.

We have a very specific topic here, and no one has raised a cogent argument to support the idea that endless hell has some kind of justification or telos. I’m pretty sure we’re done here. I will respond if someone can bring a new argument to the table. Many arguments and possible justifications have been brought, but they all seem to be wanting in one or more ways.

 

[987mk]

It is the work of a loving God who provides a place for those who find His Love odious.

They have turned their back on Love.

And since the soul is immortal, hell is eternal.

Why doesn’t God simply extinguish the soul after a hundred trillion years of suffering? Is that not enough suffering?

Why does Gods creation have to suffer for eternity?

 

[PRmerger]

Why doesn’t God simply extinguish the soul after a hundred trillion years of suffering? Is that not enough suffering?

Why does Gods creation have to suffer for eternity?

Because souls are eternal. That’s just the definition of what a soul is.

You are asking a nonsensical question like, “Can’t God just make a circle a square?”

 

[987mk]

Because souls are eternal. That’s just the definition of what a soul is.

You are asking a nonsensical question like, “Can’t God just make a circle a square?”

You’re suggesting that God doesn’t possess the ability to erase a soul from existence?

That’s what I call a nonsensical limitation on an all powerful God.

 

[PRmerger]

You’re suggesting that God doesn’t possess the ability to erase a soul from existence?

That’s what I call a nonsensical limitation on an all powerful God.

As CS Lewis said, paraphrasing, “Putting, ‘Can God’ before nonsense doesn’t cease to make it nonsense”.

If it’s a circle, it’s round. If it has 4 corners, then it’s not a circle. God can’t make nonsense into sense.

Similarly, If it’s a soul, it’s immortal. If it can be destroyed, then it’s not a soul.

That’s nonsense.

 

[987mk]

As CS Lewis said, paraphrasing, “Putting, ‘Can God’ before nonsense doesn’t cease to make it nonsense”.

If it’s a circle, it’s round. If it has 4 corners, then it’s not a circle. God can’t make nonsense into sense.

Similarly, If it’s a soul, it’s immortal. If it can be destroyed, then it’s not a soul.

That’s nonsense.

Souls are only immortal because God decided they would be immortal.

Should God decide that they’re no longer immortal, they would cease to be immortal.

 

[PRmerger]

Souls are only immortal because God decided they would be immortal.

Should God decide that they’re no longer immortal, they would cease to be immortal.

Well, again, that’s like saying “Squares only have 4 corners because God decided they would have 4 corners.”

It’s still nonsense to demand God to do something that’s not logically possible.

 

[Abba]

Souls are only immortal because God decided they would be immortal.

Should God decide that they’re no longer immortal, they would cease to be immortal.

I think we would agree that squares have four corners because the four corners are an essential characteristic of a square.

You may think, yeah, but, I would not ask God to take the corners away from the square but I would to take immortality away from a soul doomed to hell.

Well, is immortality an essential characteristic of a human soul? I think that if this is established you may not ask for it to be removed as you would not ask for the corners to be removed from a square, right?

The soul is immortal because it has divine characteristics and not only is God eternal but perhaps to share in divine characteristics the soul must also be immortal. God said, Let’s us make man in our image…we are rational, intelligent, creative, and we have the ability/capacity to be virtuous etc…

Then the other problem is, okay, so for these and various reason for which we can write several books on, the soul is immortal - but, why create hell eternal or why necessarily permit for souls to be in hell for eternity? The answer to this is free will which is in addition to immortality an element (or what have you) of the soul. God did not make us as if robots.

Allow me to digress a little; I think one good thing to do when we have serious questions like this is to be a little humble and open minded; it is highly improper, illogical and irrational to approach God with a question about His creation as if He was our equal. Hey you, what’s up with this hell thing, are you nuts, evil or what? I don’t think this way of asking dignifies an answer. But, if we approach Him with humility the Holy Spirit may come to us and enlighten us and help us to understand. Also, when we are humble we are more receptive to understanding.

Of course, I have not created an immortal soul lately, but, the one that has also created the sun and the moon and the stars, the sea and mountains, the clouds and rivers, etc… and all of the humans and animals etc… and so when I have a question I keep in mind the creator and find my place. And from that point, I ask, ponder, wonder, pray, contemplate, call the Holy Spirit for help in understanding etc… some things try as I may I cannot quite understand so I put them in the back burner for a later time when, perhaps, I would have come to understand certain elements that would help me to understand the thing in the back burner etc…

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Well, again, that’s like saying “Squares only have 4 corners because God decided they would have 4 corners.”

It’s still nonsense to demand God to do something that’s not logically possible.

You must show why it is logically necessary that souls are immortal or indestructible, if you’re going to make these claims.

You can’t just make this huge claim with no evidence or argument! What if I did the same thing?

PRmergers always express untrue opinions. If a person doesn’t express an untrue opinion, that person isn’t PRmerger. This is because it is logically impossible for PRmergers to express true opinions.

Therefore, the opinion “souls are necessarily immortal” is untrue.

I have several arguments from reason and scripture suggesting that souls are not necessarily immortal, but I will wait to offer them to give you a chance to substantiate your claim.

Even if you are right, we’ve still failed to uncover a purpose for hell, but we can at least suppose it exists by necessity. This doesn’t solve the overall problem, however. We’d basically be arguing that hell is properly basic, like God. We can’t ask “why does God exist?” because he exists by necessity, and is properly basic (in my opinion of course). Is hell just like God in that way? I don’t think so!

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Allow me to digress a little; I think one good thing to do when we have serious questions like this is to be a little humble and open minded; it is highly improper, illogical and irrational to approach God with a question about His creation as if He was our equal. Hey you, what’s up with this hell thing, are you nuts, evil or what? I don’t think this way of asking dignifies an answer. But, if we approach Him with humility the Holy Spirit may come to us and enlighten us and help us to understand. Also, when we are humble we are more receptive to understanding.

Of course, I have not created an immortal soul lately, but, the one that has also created the sun and the moon and the stars, the sea and mountains, the clouds and rivers, etc… and all of the humans and animals etc… and so when I have a question I keep in mind the creator and find my place. And from that point, I ask, ponder, wonder, pray, contemplate, call the Holy Spirit for help in understanding etc… some things try as I may I cannot quite understand so I put them in the back burner for a later time when, perhaps, I would have come to understand certain elements that would help me to understand the thing in the back burner etc…

Abba, you have made a good point here, as always. I appreciate your contributions.

Personally, I do not see myself as questioning God, but rather what some men say about God. Of course we are not equal to God, but there is no reason to suppose we aren’t equal to other human beings. Some human beings think they know all about God, and “speak with the voice of God.” What I’m trying to do here is test what they say. If it doesn’t stand up to reason, then we literally have no reason to suppose what they say is true.

“Hey you, what’s up with this hell thing, are you nuts, evil or what?” is something I would never say to God himself of course! But, I would (and do) say it to the men who claim to speak for God. I do not believe that endless hell is a revelation of God, I believe it is a theory proposed by some people who are probably misguided.

If you honestly believe that God revealed the truth of eternal hell, then there is nothing to argue about. You just have to accept it, no matter what. You just have to accept that though God looks evil, he isn’t, somehow. You can come up with some rationalizations or admit that you don’t know how God could possibly be “good” while also being the architect of eternal hell, but that your faith in hell is axiomatic or something like that.

 

[Abba]

I have several arguments from reason and scripture suggesting that souls are not necessarily immortal, but I will wait to offer them to give you a chance to substantiate your claim.

Even if you are right, we’ve still failed to uncover a purpose for hell, but we can at least suppose it exists by necessity. This doesn’t solve the overall problem, however. We’d basically be arguing that hell is properly basic, like God. We can’t ask “why does God exist?” because he exists by necessity, and is properly basic (in my opinion of course). Is hell just like God in that way? I don’t think so!

PRMerger did not substantiate his/her claim but the claim is correct. I totally appreciate that for those who do not know it needs to be explained and substantiated and so I wrote what I did below:

I think we would agree that squares have four corners because the four corners are an essential characteristic of a square.

You may think, yeah, but, I would not ask God to take the corners away from the square but I would to take immortality away from a soul doomed to hell.

Well, is immortality an essential characteristic of a human soul? I think that if this is established you may not ask for it to be removed as you would not ask for the corners to be removed from a square, right?

The soul is immortal because it has divine characteristics and not only is God eternal but perhaps to share in divine characteristics the soul must also be immortal. God said, Let’s us make man in our image…we are rational, intelligent, creative, and we have the ability/capacity to be virtuous etc…

Then the other problem is, okay, so for these and various reason for which we can write several books on, the soul is immortal - but, why create hell eternal or why necessarily permit for souls to be in hell for eternity? The answer to this is free will which is in addition to immortality an element (or what have you) of the soul. God did not make us as if robots.

True, it may be lacking in clarity and detail (kind of like PRMerger did) but it notes the necessity of the immortality of the soul and the reason for hell and why some go there. Basically, the soul is immortal because it shares divine attributes and souls go to hell because they choose to by the choices they make with their free will.

Consider that just as there is great intelligence behind creation there is also in the development of the spirit. We get our bodies from our parents but our souls from God. God helps us to grow spiritually just like our parents help us to grow physically and in society etc… but we are free spirits.

I spoke with a demon once, who was in a possessed person and he was not complaining - he was happy existing with his lack of virtue. To each his own.

 

[pocaracas]

There’s a whiff of a “confidence trick” in this whole business of hell and souls…

I don’t like it.
But I wouldn’t, would I?

 

[Abba]

There’s a whiff of a “confidence trick” in this whole business of hell and souls…

I don’t like it.
But I wouldn’t, would I?

This went right over my head. Can you please explain.

+++

Btw, our parents, god-parents, relatives, friends, neighbors etc… also help us to grow spiritually. The virtues, however, are not passed down physically - we do not inherit them but we pass down the knowledge to our children (the faith). This does not guarantee that they will be pious and virtuous. Any of us here on this forum could without out knowledge be a descendant of a saint or even from the lineage of (the relative of Mary and Jesus or Joseph) Peter - but their holiness is not passed down.This can serve as a proof for the existence of the soul. The soul is able to reflect, magnify, incorporate virtues and divine attributes and this in my understanding is the reason the soul is immortal as well as that God just simply made it immortal perhaps because He is eternal and in His Wisdom He simply considered it the best to do. It seems that in order for God to make us in His image it necessitates that our souls be immortal. It all makes sense to me any. I personally do not have a problem with the existence of the soul, the immortality of the soul, free will and hell. And I know that God is Love and Wisdom itself.

Gotta go…

 

[pocaracas]

This went right over my head. Can you please explain.

Yes… the name “confidence trick”, although it’s the correct full name, isn’t really the one by which people usually know these tricks… it just takes the start of CONfidence…

They work, because the people who fall for those tricks trust the ones perpetrating them.
In the case of souls and hell, it’s a more complex business, for the people perpetrating the trick, were themselves tricked by other who were also tricked, and on and on it goes…
Some call it indoctrination.
It all starts with that trust thing.
Trust becomes belief.
Belief becomes faith.

“You must believe in this, if you don’t want to go to hell.”
“What is hell?”
“A very bad place, [blah blah blah] soul is apart from the good people [blah].”
“What is a soul?”
“It’s the you that goes on after you die. And, if you behave like this and believe these things, you get to go to heaven.”
“What is heaven?”
“A very good place, [blah, blah, blah] soul is with the good people [blah].”
“OK, mummy. Can I go play, now?”

[repeat, rinse, repeat, redo, insist, train, educate, study]

Just to put here the meaning of “confidence trick”, according to the wiki:
“A confidence trick is an attempt to defraud a person or group after first gaining their confidence, used in the classical sense of trust. Confidence tricks exploit characteristics of the human psyche such as dishonesty, honesty, vanity, compassion, credulity, irresponsibility, naïveté and greed.”

How many of these does indoctrination exploit?

 

[Abba]

Yes… the name “confidence trick”, although it’s the correct full name, isn’t really the one by which people usually know these tricks… it just takes the start of CONfidence…

Thank you for explaining.

They work, because the people who fall for those tricks trust the ones perpetrating them.
In the case of souls and hell, it’s a more complex business, for the people perpetrating the trick, were themselves tricked by other who were also tricked, and on and on it goes…

Well pocaracas, I think life is beautiful and it is much too short. Aside from that we are here on a mission. Think of the earth like our cocoon we want to transform as we should so we can fly away otherwise - we are in trouble. It’s like a university and we want to all graduate and not flunk. Time is valuable.

I think the question people need to have the courage to ask themselves and take the time to contemplate is - what is it that I seek and long for? Why am I participating on this forum - to refute, refute, refute “and on and on it goes”?

I like chess but I am not playing chess here, but some people seem to be. I say this and they say that - it does not matter if it is truth or not - it’s a game. I am going to use this card to trump you and I am not going to listen to what you have said - it does not matter if you are wrong or right - I must be right and that is my truth and I am a refuter. I hope you agree with me that life is much too wonderful and too short to be wasting time playing little games.

Now, if people after really taking a pause, admit or recognize, that they want to know if God exists and if what the Catholic Church teaches is true, then they would do well to listen - clear the table of the chess pieces and begin an honest conversation. It’s not easy, this could be painful, but it is worth it.

Now, what I have presented here is what I know as a faithful and as a Catholic. I am not pressuring anyone, I am not preventing anyone to ask a question of what I have presented, I am not attempting to brain wash anyone. This is a complete misconception. It is simply not how it works and what it is about. You are on your own journey. I can point out some obstacles to you and I can point out the way as I share in this journey with you,. but, I am not going to force you to take it. Only you are responsible for your choices and decisions. Out of love for their brothers and sisters people participate to share their faith and guide and show other people the way. It is out of pure love.

In other words I am not brain washing anyone nor tricking people. Satan and his demons like to trick people and lie to them, I am sharing my faith in Christ and I don’t need to lie, deceive nor trick anyone.

Now, insofar as the intellectual part. What I have written, although in simple language as it is my style, is all very rational and logical. Furthermore, it is good for people to consider that God defined the way He wants people to come to know Him and become Holy (or be saved). Now, let me be upfront - I have no idea if we will both be saved - I hope so and hope to meet you in heaven, but I have no predisposition. You may be saved and I may be lost. I hope I am not lost and I hope we are both saved. But, we are both on a journey and I hope we both arrive at the correct destination. We will take different turns and paths but I hope we make. In other words, I am not coming from an arrogant position thinking that I am saved, not at all, I am coming from a position of love and I want all of us to be saved.

There have been good arguments presented on this thread but some people just chose to ignore them and not deal with them. The point is to refute and throw stones not to genuinely seek and find God.

God made it so that we must be humble to find Him and have certain inclinations, and He wants each and every one of us to find Him. It is the process of defining our spirit which He designed. It’s not my way or your way but His way. “And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?”

Does this sound to you like something the God creator of heaven and earth would say or do you think it is too simple?:

The Sermon on the Mount; The Beatitudes
5 When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the [a]mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. 2 He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,

3 “**Blessed are the [c]poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 “Blessed are the [d]gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

If you came to know that God exists and what the Catholic Church teaches is true - you would want to scream it out from the mountain tops and share it with your brothers and sisters. Kind of like Plato’s cave, if I may walk away with the analogy and say that when you come to know God you want to go back in the cave from the bright beautiful outdoors and tell your brothers and sisters their is a whole beautiful world out there come away and stop staring at the wall. It’s like that.**

 

[pocaracas]

Thank you for explaining.

Always teaching

Well pocaracas, I think life is beautiful and it is much too short. Aside from that we are here on a mission. Think of the earth like our cocoon we want to transform as we should so we can fly away otherwise - we are in trouble. It’s like a university and we want to all graduate and not flunk. Time is valuable.

I think we must live out our lives to the fullest, for it certainly seems to be the only one we get.

I think the question people need to have the courage to ask themselves and take the time to contemplate is - what is it that I seek and long for? Why am I participating on this forum - to refute, refute, refute “and on and on it goes”?

hmmm… good question… why am I here?
To provide my own point of view on some of the subjects being discussed.
I am fully aware that this is not an extremely welcome point of view, around here… but, as long as I don’t misbehave by mocking you guys, it is allowed.
I do hope that it is a different point of view from the grand majority of posters, around here.

I like chess but I am not playing chess here, but some people seem to be. I say this and they say that - it does not matter if it is truth or not - it’s a game. I am going to use this card to trump you and I am not going to listen to what you have said - it does not matter if you are wrong or right - I must be right and that is my truth and I am a refuter. I hope you agree with me that life is much too wonderful and too short to be wasting time playing little games.

Now, if people after really taking a pause, admit or recognize, that they want to know if God exists and if what the Catholic Church teaches is true, then they would do well to listen - clear the table of the chess pieces and begin an honest conversation. It’s not easy, this could be painful, but it is worth it.

Clear the table of the chess pieces.
Such a nice way of putting it.

You have there 2 unknowns:

• God exists.
• What the Catholic Church teaches is true.

Let’s take the first unknown. It can be unraveled into two possibilities:

• God does exist - this raises the question of which god, but let’s make it the monotheist creator God that is usually taught by the Church: the loving, caring God which is akin to a parent. Would your loving and caring parent ever create a place where you are to go forever, in case you misbehave? Or is your parent more likely to give you a temporary timeout for you to think about what you have done wrong and learn from that experience to then share the standard loving company of the rest of mankind?
  Of course, what the Church teaches is a bit in contrast with this I just laid out. It teaches an eternity apart from God, right? No excuses, no exceptions - while you’re alive, follow the rules laid out by the Church or be damned. They’re simple rules, I admit… but the “or else” is a bit too harsh in it’s everlasting feature.
• God does not exist - well, in this case, from whence comes the concepts of soul, heaven, hell, and God? The insistence that we see parents take with their children to teach them the “value” of belief in God is then seen as teaching a false thing. What makes people teach such false things? Believing in them… being convinced that they are true. How did they get convinced that they are true? Someone they trusted taught them. Who could it have been? Their own parents, for one, who also believed it to be true. The confidence trick successfully applied on a multi-generational level, all for the benefit of belief… of the ruling arbiters of the belief system, perhaps?

In other words I am not brain washing anyone nor tricking people. Satan and his demons like to trick people and lie to them, I am sharing my faith in Christ and I don’t need to lie, deceive nor trick anyone.

Did I ever say you were brainwashing anyone in here?
I was merely hinting at the tools at the disposal of most parents. Tools which the clerics encourage to be used. Be those clerics from religion A, B or C… they all insist upon that.

it is good for people to consider that God defined the way He wants people to come to know Him and become Holy (or be saved). Now, let me be upfront - I have no idea if we will both be saved - I hope so and hope to meet you in heaven, but I have no predisposition.

At first, you said you were putting the chess pieces out of the table… but then you bring all these D&D pieces… God, Saved, Holy, Heaven, Demons, Hell…

I am coming from a position of love and I want all of us to be saved.

Saved from what?
What is after us that we need saving from?

Does this sound to you like something the God creator of heaven and earth would say or do you think it is too simple?:

I don’t know… how should the sayings of the God creator of heaven sound like?

If you came to know that God exists and what the Catholic Church teaches is true - you would want to scream it out from the mountain tops and share it with your brothers and sisters.

Yes, indeed… but how to discern between that knowledge and the illusion of it?