Is eternal suffering pointless?

[Abba]

How can they not experience regret at the same time as experiencing the pain of loss? How can they not experience regret when they are in endless physical pain?

About a month or so ago, I read some of the sermons of Saint John Vianney the priest of Ars. In one of them he shares a story of a man who made a pact with the devil. He told Satan to help him succeed in the world and in return he would give him his soul when he died as long as Satan let’s him know three days before his death that he will die in three days. The man thought he was brilliant and would deceive Satan as his plan was to repent and confess all his sins before he died and the three days notice would provide him with plenty of time to do so.

Although Satan is a liar, he did tell them man three days before he died that he would be dying. The man had become so much the results of his actions that he did not find interest in repenting and confessing - he just felt much too weak. However, when the topic changed about his business and material possessions - he was alert and interested. The man never repented nor confessed and died. (I may have written about it in this thread as I was reading the sermons).

The frontiers of hell are here on earth PumkinCookie, and so are Satan and his demons. Perhaps, Judgement Day, Hell will be more confined. Here on earth now, we can see how people can end up in a state of existence/ a state of being, so obstinate, so evil, self loving, envious etc… that they do not want to turn back - it’s who they are and they like it. With every step (actions, decisions, thoughts etc) many are making, they are “marching straight into hell” (Saint Anthony Mary de Claret).

We cannot judge, God will be the judge, God is the Just Judge who knows all. Many people do bad things for the wrong reasons, or as a result of circumstance beyond their control and may find themselves in a bad place sinning out of ignorance, incapacity, victimization, etc…but, others have arrived in similar states on account of their own use of their own free will.

It has only been this past year, that I have come to understand how people choose hell. I see people choosing it here on earth by choosing, for instance, a certain lifestyle and way of life even though they know God exists and the teachings of the Catholic Church are true. Many will choose similarly at the particular judgement - they will choose hell. People will want to keep loving themselves and will for all eternity.

I agree with Father Fortea’s understanding that God mitigates the suffering in hell.

I like the way Socrates put it: “The justice we get from miserable people, is exactly the knowledge that with every miserable act they commit; they become more and more like themselves”.

 

[Odell]

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

(c) The privation of the beatific vision is called the pain of loss; the torment inflicted by created means on the soul, and on the body after its resurrection, is called the pain of sense.

I don’t see a contradiction here with what Aquinas is saying. Of course complete happiness is found only in God and the beatific vision, Aquinas affirms this himself. Aquinas also argued that the will always seeks good or what the person apprehends as good. If a man sins it is due to some defect in his perception of what is good and evil.

To me the person suffering in hell is like those who suffer “hell” on earth. They make the same perpetual mistakes over and over to satisfy their senses but can never put the piezes together in that the misery they are in is the very result of their actions that they freely chose as good to begin with. You can be in misery and torment caused by your choices all the while never regretting those same choices.

• CCC 1035
• Baltimore Catechism No. 3 Lesson 14

How can they not experience regret at the same time as experiencing the pain of loss? How can they not experience regret when they are in endless physical pain?

Good news…ya right!

Im no theologian, but I believe those in hell are not aware that the endless physical pain are the result of the choices they made. This is why while on earth they continued to make the same mistakes time and time again. In fact I know many people who know no other and actually enjoy the company of misery.

 

[tonyrey]

…I agree with Father Fortea’s understanding that God mitigates the suffering in hell…

That is a beautiful thought which must be true because Our Lord is infinitely loving, merciful and compassionate. He respects our freedom because genuine love cannot be enforced and if we choose to live for ourselves we cannot blame anyone but ourselves.

It is a mistake, of course, but a deliberate mistake which puts love for ourselves before love for God and others.Total freedom is a great temptation because it is a source of great pleasure and satisfaction as well as misery and frustration. Those who reject the idea of hell have a simplistic view of life which doesn’t correspond to the reality of evil. It is only in fairy stories that everyone lives happily ever after. We have to come to terms with the immense richness and complexity of existence: Jesus told us “There are many mansions in my Father’s house”. He had already made it clear there are others but that doesn’t mean He stops loving and caring for us because we shall always be His children whatever we choose. It just means we may not be as close to Him as we should be…

 

[arte]

You sound like a lawyer. The rules were established because of the hardness of our hearts.
One sin, a million, anything that closes the door on one’s relationship with God will have the same result.
A mortal sin is a willfull rejection of God, who is the Source of all truth, goodness and beauty.
Demons come in all shapes and sizes; hopefully you are aware when it awakens within.
But, there is more to it; we must love God and our neighbour.

If I was a lawyer, your defence of God would put Him in jail. You have an extremely low opinion on how strong God and His attributes are. Just one unconfessed mortal sin is such a willful rejection of God that the sinner deserves to be punished (tortured) 24/7 for an eternity. From your viewpoint, it is God who has a hardness of heart.

 

[Abba]

…Our Lord is infinitely loving, merciful and compassionate…

Yes.

Allow me to make a clarification here. Many people consider that God is merciful and try to be too smart for their own good. They like their lifestyle or the things they do, which leads to the wrong road - hell - but they rationalize that since God is merciful and is love; God will not allow them to go to hell for eternity. Actually this is an idea that I see being promoted in the spiritual forum (intentionally or not) and this is very wrong and will lead to perdition.

To do this is to do similar as the man who made a pact with Satan mentioned in a sermon of Saint John Vianney. The man thought he could use Satan and to rationalize as above is to attempt to manipulate and misuse God’s mercy to live in disobedience and a sinful life.

Where people are wrong is in thinking that God will be merciful at their particular judgement or at the final judgement. Even if Our Lord was to be merciful it is not a mercy that could be manipulated. If a person is trying to manipulate mercy, why would he necessarily deserve mercy when he is being a con artist? I think the people who are playing with this fire, who tell themselves God is merciful and so I can do as I wish because he will not judge me harshly as he is love, will get seriously burned and need to work on fearing the Lord.

In Romans, Paul warns us of this misunderstanding. The time for mercy is now. We need to repent of our sins:

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”
1 John: 9

But, NOW - when we die the party is over. We need to take advantage of the mercy God is offering us NOW.

 

[rinnie]

If I was a lawyer, your defence of God would put Him in jail. You have an extremely low opinion on how strong God and His attributes are. Just one unconfessed mortal sin is such a willful rejection of God that the sinner deserves to be punished (tortured) 24/7 for an eternity. From your viewpoint, it is God who has a hardness of heart.

You are spot on!! Funny how people like to blame everyone else for their own selfishness and choices in life, even God.

But really its no different in this world, how many people do you know that steal, kill, do every horrible and evil thing in this world to watch people suffer, then when they are caught, if they get caught, then blame everyone else. We have a jail full of them.

They do not want to pay for what they did, in this world or the next. So they choose to reject or entertain, even the idea, that there is a punishment lie ahead. why? Simply because if they let themselves accept the truth of God, they would have to repent, quit the sin, and become like God.

So they would rather convince themselves and others if they can (misery loves company) so they can enjoy their evil on this earth, without even thinking of a price that will be paid.

 

[OneSheep]

Hello and Good morning!.

If I may “cut in”

About a month or so ago, I read some of the sermons of Saint John Vianney the priest of Ars. In one of them he shares a story of a man who made a pact with the devil. He told Satan to help him succeed in the world and in return he would give him his soul when he died as long as Satan let’s him know three days before his death that he will die in three days. The man thought he was brilliant and would deceive Satan as his plan was to repent and confess all his sins before he died and the three days notice would provide him with plenty of time to do so.

This man does not have a clue what he is doing. He is a slave to his nature, and is living the life of a slave. He is not free.

Although Satan is a liar, he did tell them man three days before he died that he would be dying. The man had become so much the results of his actions that he did not find interest in repenting and confessing - he just felt much too weak. However, when the topic changed about his business and material possessions - he was alert and interested. The man never repented nor confessed and died. (I may have written about it in this thread as I was reading the sermons).

Makes sense, the man remains a blind, ignorant slave. He is in the dark.

The frontiers of hell are here on earth PumkinCookie, and so are Satan and his demons. Perhaps, Judgement Day, Hell will be more confined. Here on earth now, we can see how people can end up in a state of existence/ a state of being, so obstinate, so evil, self loving, envious etc… that they do not want to turn back - it’s who they are and they like it. With every step (actions, decisions, thoughts etc) many are making, they are “marching straight into hell” (Saint Anthony Mary de Claret).

We cannot judge, God will be the judge, God is the Just Judge who knows all. Many people do bad things for the wrong reasons, or as a result of circumstance beyond their control and may find themselves in a bad place sinning out of ignorance, incapacity, victimization, etc…but, others have arrived in similar states on account of their own use of their own free will.

It has only been this past year, that I have come to understand how people choose hell. I see people choosing it here on earth by choosing, for instance, a certain lifestyle and way of life even though they know God exists and the teachings of the Catholic Church are true. Many will choose similarly at the particular judgement - they will choose hell. People will want to keep loving themselves and will for all eternity.

Yes, God is the Just Judge. From the cross, God judged the people who hung Him there. He said, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.” God’s mercy and forgiveness is infinite, yes, even in the worst of circumstances. A person who uses these words to justify a life of enslavement to desires or hanging onto resentment all their life does not have a clue what they are doing. They do not have “free” will, they have a will that is greatly compromised by ignorance and blindness.

The Just Judge has already spoken. He saw their ignorance and blindness and forgave, did he not?

I agree with Father Fortea’s understanding that God mitigates the suffering in hell.

Where can I find this?

Thanks for allowing me to cut in.

 

[Abba]

This man does not have a clue what he is doing. He is a slave to his nature, and is living the life of a slave. He is not free.

I am not very eloquent and I just spend my little breaks here on CAF and sometimes do not even have time to edit. I post here without a license. It appears as though I have not even alluded to one of the points I am trying to present here. The theological concept is that with our actions, decisions, thoughts, etc… which we freely select by the use of our free will; we become more and more a being which results from those actions, decisions, thoughts etc. It is also the concept behind the understanding that the more we sin the smaller our conscience becomes. The more we sin the quieter our conscience becomes and it goes down to a whisper and then it is inaudible.

The man may have at the time he made the pact enough within himself at that time, to turn back. If Satan, had told him the following day that he had three more days to live, the man may have had the strength and clarity to repent. But, one of the points of the story is that with the passage of time and living in such a sinful state for a prolonged time - we become the culmination of our actions, decisions, thoughts, etc… This is how people freely choose hell during their personal judgement.

In all likelihood, Satan was on to his little plan, but Satan let it go, as he knows the results and that in the end he will get his soul.

Do you understand? I will be back soon to respond to the rest, I have to take care of someone.

 

[Protestor]

It has only been this past year, that I have come to understand how people choose hell. I see people choosing it here on earth by choosing, for instance, a certain lifestyle and way of life even though they know God exists and the teachings of the Catholic Church are true. Many will choose similarly at the particular judgement - they will choose hell. People will want to keep loving themselves and will for all eternity. I agree with Father Fortea’s understanding that God mitigates the suffering in hell

Is this true for all people who are not christian, save for people who have not ever heard the Truth? I guess what I’m trying to get at is would you say that an atheist knows God exists and truths as revealed by the CC? If so I would love to know how you are defining know. I have heard atheists say that even if the CC is correct that they still wouldn’t serve God.

The concept of mitigated suffering is interesting.

“Abba isn’t daddy”

 

[Abba]

“Abba isn’t daddy”

Abba is not a Greek word -" Ἀββᾶ! ὁ Πατήρ!" . Abba is an Aramaic word used endearingly by children yet a respectful form - to refer to or call their father. This much as “papá” in spanish. Mamá and papá (and Abba) are easy words for a child to pronounce; and are often the first a child pronounces especially if these are part of the common language.

 

[OneSheep]

I am not very eloquent and I just spend my little breaks here on CAF and sometimes do not even have time to edit. I post here without a license. It appears as though I have not even alluded to one of the points I am trying to present here. The theological concept is that with our actions, decisions, thoughts, etc… which we freely select by the use of our free will; we become more and more a being which results from those actions, decisions, thoughts etc.

Oh but you are too humble! Your point came across quite clearly, but I am giving a counterpoint. Our will is not completely free. A free will would be one not compromised by ignorance and blindness. I definitely agree that we somewhat “freely” choose among the choices of which we are aware, but some of those choices weigh heavily on our natural compulsions. For example, the crowd who hung Jesus should have forgiven Him, but their own consciences compelled them to “destroy the blasphemer”, to mete a “due punishment”. If they had forgiven Jesus, their eyes would have opened, and they would realize the error in their action. Forgiveness frees our eyes from resentment.

It is also the concept behind the understanding that the more we sin the smaller our conscience becomes. The more we sin the quieter our conscience becomes and it goes down to a whisper and then it is inaudible.

This may be true, but the opposite is also true. In order for a person to sin in the first place, their own conscience is not “loud enough”, it is not well-informed enough. In addition, there is a gap in their awareness. They do not know what they are doing. Another “opposite” is that the more people sin, the more they suffer. Think of the alcoholic or the person caught up in having to have more and more wealth. In both cases, the people suffer from enslavement. People learn, eventually, from the suffering. It is a slow process of seeing the harm.

Do you understand? I will be back soon to respond to the rest, I have to take care of someone.

Thanks! I look forward to the rest of your response.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

So many posts. So many words. So many theories. So many excuses. So much bluster. So much hesitation. So much confusion. And yet…

We still have no reason to suppose eternal suffering has a point or a purpose.

Any way you slice it, all the solutions proposed in this thread cast aspersions on the omnipotence, omniscience, or omnibenevolence of God. They blaspheme his wisdom, power, and goodness.

This is all vanity and shouting into the void. We cling to our idols. We kneel before them and bow to them. We beg their ceramic, wood, gold, and stone forms to tell us the truth, and in return we receive emptiness and silence. We put our faith in men to tell us the truth, and we receive nothing but contradiction, strife, violence, auto da fé, and ultimately despair and disillusion.

O Lord, Who are my power and my strength and my refuge in the day of trouble, to you nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Only lies have our fathers handed down to us, emptiness in which there is nothing of any avail! Can a man make gods for himself, and they are no gods? Therefore, behold I let them know; at this time I will let them know My power and My might, and they shall know that My Name is the Lord.

-Jeremiah 16:19-21

 

[Abba]

So many posts. So many words. So many theories. So many excuses. So much bluster. So much hesitation. So much confusion. And yet…

We still have no reason to suppose eternal suffering has a point or a purpose.

Any way you slice it, all the solutions proposed in this thread cast aspersions on the omnipotence, omniscience, or omnibenevolence of God. They blaspheme his wisdom, power, and goodness.

This is all vanity and shouting into the void. We cling to our idols. We kneel before them and bow to them. We beg their ceramic, wood, gold, and stone forms to tell us the truth, and in return we receive emptiness and silence. We put our faith in men to tell us the truth, and we receive nothing but contradiction, strife, violence, auto da fé, and ultimately despair and disillusion.

-Jeremiah 16:19-21

The only post I have read on this thread so far that fits this description is yours. It is all very poetics with pretty words and all but says nothing and falsely accuses and is void.

Indeed, there have been many posts on this thread, and what I see is love. People trying to share their knowledge of God to guide others to coming to know Our Lord - while others are genuinely seeking Him. It’s beautiful! Our Lord said that where two or more speak of Him He is present. He is with us now.

There is nothing wrong with evangelizing and relying on one another to come to understand and to grow. As a matter of fact it is all in the design of God to lead us to salvation. Yes, this is what Sor Maria de Jesus de Agreda wrote that either the Virgin Mary or Jesus told her ( I forget who) but, I believe her and it makes sense. Theology is a science - the concepts and ideas must fit in and her statement fits. God wants to initiate a discussion of Him and this process leads us to understanding.

Eternal suffering is not pointless because God in His love for us humans has selected not to destroy even those who reject Him. They can continue to exist but are not invited to the banquet. Even here on earth there are people who reject God and prefer to love themselves above God and they suffer as a consequence but God is not destroying them and much to the contrary respects their human dignity.

 

[Abba]

It is so much more comfortable to attack the truth than to start to dismantle all we have built for a contrary lifestyle.

 

[Abba]

Where can I find this?

It’s not available in English. I am going to start a thread to ask people to send an email to Father Fortea requesting that someone (maybe his assistant) uploads the videos with English subtitles. I would offer to do it but, I actually have a lot of demands on my time. Again, I take my little breaks at CAF - to relax and get away from the stress and demands.

Here is where Father Fortea makes that statement but, it is in Spanish. It’s a lecture on hell.

Explicación del Infierno - Padre Fortea
youtube.com/watch?v=vh32bYPKPCk

 

[tonyrey]

Yes.

Allow me to make a clarification here. Many people consider that God is merciful and try to be too smart for their own good. They like their lifestyle or the things they do, which leads to the wrong road - hell - but they rationalize that since God is merciful and is love; God will not allow them to go to hell for eternity. Actually this is an idea that I see being promoted in the spiritual forum (intentionally or not) and this is very wrong and will lead to perdition.

To do this is to do similar as the man who made a pact with Satan mentioned in a sermon of Saint John Vianney. The man thought he could use Satan and to rationalize as above is to attempt to manipulate and misuse God’s mercy to live in disobedience and a sinful life.

Where people are wrong is in thinking that God will be merciful at their particular judgement or at the final judgement. Even if Our Lord was to be merciful it is not a mercy that could be manipulated. If a person is trying to manipulate mercy, why would he necessarily deserve mercy when he is being a con artist? I think the people who are playing with this fire, who tell themselves God is merciful and so I can do as I wish because he will not judge me harshly as he is love, will get seriously burned and need to work on fearing the Lord.

In Romans, Paul warns us of this misunderstanding. The time for mercy is now. We need to repent of our sins:

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”
1 John: 9

But, NOW - when we die the party is over. We need to take advantage of the mercy God is offering us NOW.

Indeed. Procrastination is the thief of time but it may also rob us of life with God! If repeatedly postpone repentance we are probably not really repentant at all…

 

[eddie_too]

if hell does not exist, why do we speak of salvation and redemption?

if everyone ends up in heaven, there was no need for the Incarnation.

eternal punishment provides a reason for the Incarnation, not a small thing in my opinion.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

It is so much more comfortable to attack the truth than to start to dismantle all we have built for a contrary lifestyle.

It is difficult to escape the tyranny of history and the weight of tradition. I imagine it must have been painful and frightening for Abraham to reject the idols of his fathers and pursue God. Even then, he lived in a world that had long forgotten the one true God to chase after idols and vanity.

However, I believe we can all have a relationship with God in the midst of the vanity and superstition imposed on us from childhood through no fault of our own. All religions seem to acknowledge the unity and goodness of God in the center. It is at the fringe of religious tradition that humility and truth recedes and vanity and arrogance expand seemingly without limit. Endless hell, and the private revelations of “saints” who seem to relish in its horrors, is one such fringe belief, in my opinion. Paradoxically, the more beliefs we have about a religion and the “deeper” into it we get, the further from the center we travel. Fanatics are usually very knowledgeable and deeply committed. Oddly, they’re also some of the worst human beings, regardless of religious tradition.

The perpetrators of colonialism, slavery, the genocide of the Native Americans, the crusades (on both sides), and countless other atrocities all supposedly held a robust belief in hell.

Consider the universalists or annihilationists of history. Have Quakers perpetrated a genocide? Ever see any forced conversions to Buddhism? Any Unitarians strapping bombs to themselves in order to destroy non-universalist houses of worship? Of course not!

The fruits of a robust belief in endless hell seem to be strife, division, violence, and chaos. Maybe we should try something else.

Now, of course everyone will jump in and talk about how the worst crimes of humanity ever committed were committed by 20th century atheists (deniers of an afterlife or ultimate justice). I’m not arguing that there is no final justice or afterlife, merely that the irreparably evil will be ultimately and permanently destroyed while the good will live forever. Big difference.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

if hell does not exist, why do we speak of salvation and redemption?

if everyone ends up in heaven, there was no need for the Incarnation.

eternal punishment provides a reason for the Incarnation, not a small thing in my opinion.

Some possible answers to your questions:

We must repent to be saved from death.

Yes, indeed, totally unnecessary. Unnecessary even if there is an endless hell. The tail should not wag the dog.

 

[Abba]

It is difficult to escape the tyranny of history and the weight of tradition. I imagine it must have been painful and frightening for Abraham to reject the idols of his fathers and pursue God. Even then, he lived in a world that had long forgotten the one true God to chase after idols and vanity.

The comparison is not valid. The “tyranny of history” and the “weight of tradition” are serving as stumbling blocks for you. Abraham had a one track mind - to serve and love God. Given what we know of Abraham and the fact that he was willing and ready to sacrifice his own son to God - I think it is a fine thing to say that Abraham would not let the ‘tyranny of history’ and the ‘weight of tradition’ stop him from finding and serving God.

In other words, put those concerns in the back burner for now, as they do not make sense to you where you are at now. Continue to advance in the areas of understanding which you can and make progress in this way. Then, in a more advanced stage you can get the stuff in your back burner and discard them as they will then make sense and will no longer be a concern or stumbling block.

However, I believe we can all have a relationship with God in the midst of the vanity and superstition imposed on us from childhood through no fault of our own. All religions seem to acknowledge the unity and goodness of God in the center. It is at the fringe of religious tradition that humility and truth recedes and vanity and arrogance expand seemingly without limit. Endless hell, and the private revelations of “saints” who seem to relish in its horrors, is one such fringe belief, in my opinion. Paradoxically, the more beliefs we have about a religion and the “deeper” into it we get, the further from the center we travel. Fanatics are usually very knowledgeable and deeply committed. Oddly, they’re also some of the worst human beings, regardless of religious tradition.

There is a tinge of relativism here and God is not relative. The truth is the truth and that’s it. There are no half truths with God - whether we like or not, whether it inconveniences us or not. You also consider the Bible a lot of mumbo jumbo. Yet, Sacred Scripture is the word of God to us humans. Perhaps, you consider that if you were God you would have inspired humans to write a spectacular book not all that 'superstition etc… But, PumpkinCookie, perhaps, it would be good to put your extraordinary intellect aside (in the back burner for a bit) and humble yourself to God and open the bible and ask God - God if this is truly your word, please, I humbly pray - help me to come to recognize it as such and help me to understand. In other words, put your luggage on the side lines. Let God be God for a little while.

The perpetrators of colonialism, slavery, the genocide of the Native Americans, the crusades (on both sides), and countless other atrocities all supposedly held a robust belief in hell…
The fruits of a robust belief in endless hell seem to be strife, division, violence, and chaos. Maybe we should try something else.

We cannot. God really does exists. We do not make him up as we go along nor what he has created etc…

+++

I took a look at your previous posts to understand a little better where you are coming from. I don’t often take the time and it is a good thing to do. This is the second time this year that have done so as on both occasions I wanted to get a little background. Well, if you ended up at Yale and took some theology courses there and allowed yourself to be influenced by the rubbish they are teaching - that is pitiful. Talk about hallucinating with the Bible-pick what you like and rationalize the rest.

Btw, in your first post you said you are a female and on your second you say you are a male about to get marry. Can you clarify?