Is EVERYTHING meaningless?

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oldcelt said:
Psoriatic arthritis throughout my body. If they would drug me enough to stop the pain, I would be non-functional. There is no way to stop it, since it is auto immune, but it can be slowed and controlled to a degree. I’m thankful to still be walking and using my hands to a degree.
Maybe in time, they’ll come up with something better.
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Hugs.

I’m glad you make the time and take the energy to post here.
 
oldcelt said:
Psoriatic arthritis throughout my body. If they would drug me enough to stop the pain, I would be non-functional. There is no way to stop it, since it is auto immune, but it can be slowed and controlled to a degree. I’m thankful to still be walking and using my hands to a degree.
Maybe in time, they’ll come up with something better.
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Have you tried self-hypnosis? I’m sending you a PM.
 
Nihilist said:
If there is no eternal life, do we really"have to work" on joy in the here and now?

Wouldn’t it be just a reasonable simply to fold our arms and say “#$@ it!”?

I don’t raise this question just to be perverse- it’s how I generally feel, and lots of others surely…
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Feelings are often irrational…
 
Oreoracle said:
It seems to me that nihilists always get hung up on the pointless tautology: “If I ignore my own passions, there is no value to life”. Well of course there isn’t, because value is subjective; that is, your passions are what supply the value to begin with. “My life is valuable” is just a shorthand for “I cherish my own existence to the extent that I am willing to go to great lengths to preserve it, including thwarting others when they attempt to end it”.

In short, your reasoning only leads to nihilism if you try to imagine that morality must be objective. Then you reach the inevitable conclusion that that assumption doesn’t make sense, hence the problem.
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I have been thinking about your insight. I agree that the effect of the passions or instincts can make something APPEAR to have value.

But, learning to ignore (or overcome) the passions and instincts seems exactly what we, as post-Cartesian thinking beings, as rational minds, need to do.

It is not enought that my body or irrational passions ‘wants’ to do or have something- for the res cogitans (the Cartesian ‘I’), there needs to be an objective value- not only ‘relatively’ objective value (i.e. of value to an invidivual, or even the human race), but an absolutely objective (of value to the absolutely disconnected res cogitans- the’I’ of the ‘Cogito ergo sum’).

And this is why it seems as if everything is pointless…
 
Nihilist said:
But, learning to ignore (or overcome) the passions and instincts seems exactly what we, as post-Cartesian thinking beings, as rational minds, need to do.

It is not enought that my body or irrational passions ‘wants’ to do or have something- for the res cogitans (the Cartesian ‘I’), there needs to be an objective value- not only ‘relatively’ objective value (i.e. of value to an invidivual, or even the human race), but an absolutely objective (of value to the absolutely disconnected res cogitans- the’I’ of the ‘Cogito ergo sum’).

And this is why it seems as if everything is pointless…
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If holding on to that philosophy IS your passion, cool, but they you end up with “everything is pointless” and I know that there are people who are satisfied with that.

I don’t personally find value in something that negates or invalidates my life and experience, which is what that philosophy does to me. I don’t have a passion to be so logical that my life feels pointless to me. I don’t have a passion to be part of a group that follows a philosophy like that. So I have to follow my passion AND my reason that says if it’s robbing me of this life, which I understand to be the sum of what I have, then I’m dropping that philosophy and getting on with things.

I think self defense is both reasonable and passionate. And basically not following that philosophy, is for me, self defense
 
Nihilist said:
I have been thinking about your insight. I agree that the effect of the passions or instincts can make something APPEAR to have value.

But, learning to ignore (or overcome) the passions and instincts seems exactly what we, as post-Cartesian thinking beings, as rational minds, need to do.

It is not enought that my body or irrational passions ‘wants’ to do or have something- for the res cogitans (the Cartesian ‘I’), there needs to be an objective value- not only ‘relatively’ objective value (i.e. of value to an invidivual, or even the human race), but an absolutely objective (of value to the absolutely disconnected res cogitans- the’I’ of the ‘Cogito ergo sum’).

And this is why it seems as if everything is pointless…
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Everything is pointless? I assume you believe your post has a point or you would not have bothered to write it.
 
Regardless of whether there is a God or not human-beings sure act like there’s a meaning and moral value to existence, and such is exposed every time they voice an opinion in defence of their dignity.

If atheism is the correct position intellectually speaking, then there is no such thing as a dignity that requires defending and any attempt to place value on life or existence is to irrationally give existence meaning.

Ones attempt to stay alive or to perceive a human-being as anything more than an object with a potential utility value is fundamentally irrational.

Every time I debate a nihilist or atheist that strives for “greatness” or wants the moral high ground in life the old saying “Having ones cake and eating it” comes to mind.

Of course, if there is a God then it is perfectly reasonable to feel guilty when I hurt somebody, and it is honourable to rectify it. But what rational value can such words have to an atheist? None. What does it mean to have ones “humanity” when all you really are is just a particular expression of energy? These are all value judgements that both Atheists and Theists employ in their daily lives and they both believe that such values pertain to the honest objective “truth” of the matter.

I have not yet met one true atheist, and those who label themselves as such do not fully understand the logical consequences of such a position.

Sometimes meaning is invented, but sometimes meaning is also discovered and it is that kind of meaning that motivates us to strive for greatness, happiness and moral fortitude for who can be satisfied with beliefs that we know to be fiction? Certainly not atheists!!!

A healthy Self esteem requires the consistent belief that ones life has meaning and value independent of peoples subjective opinions and behaving consistently with that belief. People who do not believe themselves as having this tend to kill themselves. Endowing ones self with value and meaning is to indulge in fantasy.

Those with eyes to see, let them see.
 
ChainBreaker said:
Regardless of whether there is a God or not human-beings sure act like there’s a meaning and moral value to existence, and such is exposed every time they voice an opinion in defence of their dignity.

If atheism is the correct position intellectually speaking, then there is no such thing as a dignity that requires defending and any attempt to place value on life or existence is to irrationally give existence meaning.

Ones attempt to stay alive or to perceive a human-being as anything more than an object with a potential utility value is fundamentally irrational.

Every time I debate a nihilist or atheist that strives for “greatness” or wants the moral high ground in life the old saying “Having ones cake and eating it” comes to mind.

Of course, if there is a God then it is perfectly reasonable to feel guilty when I hurt somebody, and it is honourable to rectify it. But what rational value can such words have to an atheist? None. What does it mean to have ones “humanity” when all you really are is just a particular expression of energy? These are all value judgements that both Atheists and Theists employ in their daily lives and they both believe that such values pertain to the honest objective “truth” of the matter.

I have not yet met one true atheist, and those who label themselves as such do not fully understand the logical consequences of such a position.

Sometimes meaning is invented, but sometimes meaning is also discovered and it is that kind of meaning that motivates us to strive for greatness, happiness and moral fortitude for who can be satisfied with beliefs that we know to be fiction? Certainly not atheists!!!

A healthy Self esteem requires the consistent belief that ones life has meaning and value independent of peoples subjective opinions and behaving consistently with that belief. People who do not believe themselves as having this tend to kill themselves. Endowing ones self with value and meaning is to indulge in fantasy.

Those with eyes to see, let them see.
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A warm welcome to the forum! An excellent post which has broken the ice of a Godless universe! 🙂
 
Nihilist said:
It seems to me that if one took a ‘global’ perspective of the world, it would be a bunch of people moving around like ants, moving things here and there, doing, scheming, planning, being born, dying…

Viewed from a million miles aways, it just a lump of rock in space. Meaningless.

Now, if one were to view the entire EVERYTHING (the Universe, its Creator, it origin, is final end) from an absolutely transcendent point of view- the WHOLE thing (Creation, Existence, time, space, etc.) is totally pointless. A trillion years of time, a billion universes, millions of people being born, laboring, suffering and dying, all human efforts eventually reduced to dust. And this is just one planet out of billions. In the end, happiness and sorrow are the same. One fate comes to all. Everything seems futile…

So it feels to me, right now. How can we look at infinity without feeling sick- or consider existence without nausea?

Is this philosophy, or just a feeling?

Is there a philosophical answer to this feeling I have…
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Your complaint was registered by the philosopher/psychologist William James in 1910. After a lifetime of searching for truth in all the philosophical systems of the world including his own, the last words he penned before he died were:

“There is no conclusion. What has concluded that we might conclude regarding it? There are no fortunes to be told and there is no advice to be given. Farewell.”

This is a dismal philosophy, but it is the only conclusion to be drawn from a philosophy that is emptied of God. It has been echoed by so many other philosophers, some of whom committed suicide or would like to have committed suicide if they’d had the courage. Others simply developed a philosophy of resignation to the nausea that permeated their lives. This might include philosopher like Sartre and Camus. Others, like Bertrand Russell, might deny the nausea, but could not deny the sorrow of their final doom.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Your complaint was registered by the philosopher/psychologist William James in 1910. After a lifetime of searching for truth in all the philosophical systems of the world including his own, the last words he penned before he died were:

“There is no conclusion. What has concluded that we might conclude regarding it? There are no fortunes to be told and there is no advice to be given. Farewell.”

This is a dismal philosophy, but it is the only conclusion to be drawn from a philosophy that is emptied of God. It has been echoed by so many other philosophers, some of whom committed suicide or would like to have committed suicide if they’d had the courage. Others simply developed a philosophy of resignation to the nausea that permeated their lives. This might include philosopher like Sartre and Camus. Others, like Bertrand Russell, might deny the nausea, but could not deny the sorrow of their final doom.
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That pretty much says how I feel. We work, struggle, achieve things- they fall to pieces, everything comes to nothing. All loves fail, all dreams die, nothing in this world is worth the trouble. All pointless vanity. What advantage has the wise man over the fool, since the same fate comes to both…

But I believe in God, and I hope for the afterlife as an ultimate goal…But, all secondary goals, all the things of THIS world seem pointless, and mere empty mirages…
 
Nihilist said:
That pretty much says how I feel. We work, struggle, achieve things- they fall to pieces, everything comes to nothing. All loves fail, all dreams die, nothing in this world is worth the trouble. All pointless vanity. What advantage has the wise man over the fool, since the same fate comes to both…

But I believe in God, and I hope for the afterlife as an ultimate goal…But, all secondary goals, all the things of THIS world seem pointless, and mere empty mirages…
Click to expand...
I wish I could help you to feel at least a bit better about this life. Please think of the good you can do with just a pleasant word to another person. Most of the things we accomplish seem tiny and insignificant, but they may be huge to one of our fellow creatures.

John
 
Nihilist said:
That pretty much says how I feel. We work, struggle, achieve things- they fall to pieces, everything comes to nothing. All loves fail, all dreams die, nothing in this world is worth the trouble. All pointless vanity. What advantage has the wise man over the fool, since the same fate comes to both…
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Were the thoughts and actions of Jesus and Socrates as pointless as a fool’s?
But I believe in God, and I hope for the afterlife as an ultimate goal…But, all secondary goals, all the things of THIS world seem pointless, and mere empty mirages…
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Doesn’t it matter how we treat others in THIS world?
 
tonyrey said:
Were the thoughts and actions of Jesus and Socrates as pointless as a fool’s?

Doesn’t it matter how we treat others in THIS world?
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Yes, it matters, of course, very much.

The fact that our earthly endeavours are framed by futility, is all the more reason we have to be good to each other.

If earthly life is pointless (except for a way of getting to the real life of Heaven), we need to be kind to each other, since we are all share the same lot- and probably at least 50% of us are just managing to hang on, even if we look like were doing OK.
 
God gives meaning to life and purpose. Should be no surprise the non religious are perplexed by this question. Your life style doesn’t set out or prepare you for these questions which eventually in this very quick life are front and center.

Thats why the Holy Spirit is called “the giver of life”.
 
oldcelt said:
I wish I could help you to feel at least a bit better about this life. Please think of the good you can do with just a pleasant word to another person. Most of the things we accomplish seem tiny and insignificant, but they may be huge to one of our fellow creatures.

John
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Thanks. That’s very good of you. It’s quite helpful reading people’s comments on this forum.
 
Nihilist said:
It seems to me that if one took a ‘global’ perspective of the world, it would be a bunch of people moving around like ants, moving things here and there, doing, scheming, planning, being born, dying…

Viewed from a million miles aways, it just a lump of rock in space. Meaningless.

Now, if one were to view the entire EVERYTHING (the Universe, its Creator, it origin, is final end) from an absolutely transcendent point of view- the WHOLE thing (Creation, Existence, time, space, etc.) is totally pointless. A trillion years of time, a billion universes, millions of people being born, laboring, suffering and dying, all human efforts eventually reduced to dust. And this is just one planet out of billions. In the end, happiness and sorrow are the same. One fate comes to all. Everything seems futile…

So it feels to me, right now. How can we look at infinity without feeling sick- or consider existence without nausea?

Is this philosophy, or just a feeling?

Is there a philosophical answer to this feeling I have…
Click to expand...
The viewpoint you describe as meaningless and nauseating is actually something like what I would consider a God’s-eye view, or at least an angel’s-eye view, that is if the angel wanted it. Personally, rather than being trapped in this horrible impoverished existence, I would love to have such a view, so I have to think that your reaction to the viewpoint you have created is just your own subjective feeling.

I would love to fly through the universe as a disembodied spirit, letting the eons pass like seconds, seeing innumerable stars and planets, immune to all the ills of flesh, and able to take vast amounts of time to think about everything. Aside from getting to see my pets and my family again (and God and the angels if I should be so fortunate), what you have described is to me something like heaven.

It doesn’t sound nauseating at all, it sounds glorious.
 
Nihilist said:
Were the thoughts and actions of Jesus and Socrates as pointless as a fool’s?
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Can you explain how it is possible and consistent) to be kind, reasonable and purposeful in an ocean of indifference, absurdity and futility? It seems like wishful thinking based on fantasy…
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Charlemagne_III said:
Your complaint was registered by the philosopher/psychologist William James in 1910. After a lifetime of searching for truth in all the philosophical systems of the world including his own, the last words he penned before he died were:

“There is no conclusion. What has concluded that we might conclude regarding it? There are no fortunes to be told and there is no advice to be given. Farewell.”

This is a dismal philosophy, but it is the only conclusion to be drawn from a philosophy that is emptied of God. It has been echoed by so many other philosophers, some of whom committed suicide or would like to have committed suicide if they’d had the courage. Others simply developed a philosophy of resignation to the nausea that permeated their lives. This might include philosopher like Sartre and Camus. Others, like Bertrand Russell, might deny the nausea, but could not deny the sorrow of their final doom.
Click to expand...
Yet, surprisingly enough, James had written:

“Pascal’s argument, instead of being powerless, then seems a regular clincher, and is the last stroke needed to make our faith…complete.” - The Will to Believe

It seems that ultimately belief in a finite God is an inadequate basis for optimism - which is hardly surprising! 🙂
 
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