Is fiscal conservatism not Christian?

[Ignatius]

1. God’s Law Governs Nations as Well as Men.

The Ten Commandments should not only be enshrined in our courthouses, they should be engraved in our hearts and minds as guides to all behavior, public and private. As the Founders acknowledged in the Declaration of Independence, laws and policies that violate the natural law are abuses of government power that must be resisted and reversed.

2. Life Is the First God-Given RightIt’s always wrong to deliberately take an innocent human life. When this principle is abridged, violence escalates. Thus we have aborted 47 million unborn babies in the past three decades, begun to accept euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide, and stand at the threshold of cloning human beings for the specific purpose of killing them.

3. Marriage and Family Come Before the State and Deserve Its ProtectionThe marriage of one man and one woman is the natural foundation of all human society, and the means by which children ought to be brought into the world and taught the basic values of our civilization. Government has a duty to recognize and protect the family and must not grant alternative relationships the same status and privileges.

4. Freedom of Conscience is the Soul of Liberty
Understanding that freedom of conscience is at the heart of liberty, the Framers protected freedom of religion and assembly in the 1st Amendment. Movements to force the Boy Scouts to accept homosexual scout masters, or to compel religious individuals or organizations to distribute birth control or abortion drugs against their beliefs, directly attack these freedoms.

5. Private Property is the Servant of FreedomThe more that individuals, families and businesses can acquire and control the goods necessary to sustain and advance themselves, the more autonomy they will have from the state and others who may wish to unjustly restrict their freedom. The free and responsible use of private property tends to create greater wealth and greater freedom for greater numbers of people.

6. Government Dependency is the Seed of Tyranny
The more that individuals, families and businesses are dependent on the state for the goods necessary to sustain and advance themselves, the less autonomy they will have from the state and others who may wish to unjustly restrict their freedom. This is why expanding the welfare state is bad, and Social Security personal retirement accounts, Health Savings Accounts and school choice are good.

7. The Constitution Means What It Says
Believing in the God-given rights of man and understanding the imperfect nature of human beings, the Framers crafted a Constitution designed to protect the former from the latter. Many of the problems in U.S. government would be resolved if the President, Congress and Courts limited themselves and each other to the authority the Constitution actually grants them.

8. Taxes Are Justified Only to Fund Necessary Government SpendingA massive and complex tax code has become a powerful weapon politicians can use to pressure citizens to behave as the politicians, or the interest groups that support the politicians, wish. The correct function of taxation is to equitably collect only that revenue needed to fund the legitimate activities of a constitutionally limited government.

9. National Defense Is Just ThatThe first duty of the federal government is to defend the American people against foreign enemies. While advancing freedom in the world is good in itself—and, where it prudently can be done, would advance the interests of the United States–ultimately, the mandate for our national leaders is to use whatever moral means they can to carve out that path in our relations with foreign powers that is most likely to lead to enhanced security, prosperity and freedom for this nation.

10. We Should Strive to Give Our Children a Better Country
America is more than just an expanse of territory or a set of laws. It is a culture, whose art, architecture, journalism, music, movies, television, schools and universities, should reflect and reinforce the traditional values that made this country great. We owe this to our children, who will build the America of tomorrow on the foundation of the America we teach them to love today. /quote]

Bears repeating!

 

[Kansas_Girl]

The premise in the first place is wrong. Conservatives do want to help the poor. Those who are handicapped, aged or infirm must be helped by government. However, how to help the rest of us is the real question. A recent study shows that conservatives give much, much more to charity than do liberals. By giving to a charity, or directly to someone in need, you are in control. You are not forced, through taxes, to contribute to organizations, such as Planned Parenthood, which does get millions of tax dollars from the U.S. Government each year.

Conservatives want to give opportunity to individuals so that they make their own decisions and are not mandated by the government to follow certain criteria to “get the free goodies.” School choice is a good example. Fiscal liberals oppose it because it takes away the control that the public schools give them, even though it leads to better education and better schools overall.

As far as health care is concerned, we in the United States receive the best health care in the world. People from all over, who can afford to come here, go to U.S. hospitals. Though the system has many problems, it is infinitely better than what is offered in Canada and many European countries, which often deny help to those who are elderly or whose lives are considered to be “of low quality” because treating all of them would bankrupt the system. There are often long waiting periods for people who need surgery, and the quality of care is often diminished. Often doctors and hospitals are chosen for you, and you have no control over where you go for treatment or which doctor you consult.

A much better idea would be medical savings accounts which would allow people to put a portion of their income into an account and use it as they need. This would allow people to “shop around” for better bargains and eventually lead to the lowering of medical care costs.

We should not become so dependent on govenment for our needs. For every dollar we receive we give up some of our freedom. Socialism is idealistic (as is communism), but in the long run it collapses as it is fiscally impossible to sustain, even though it maintains an iron grip on its citizens.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Let me give you an example of how charity can work.

My church, Saint Mary’s in Mountain View, Arkansas, isn’t a parish – we’re a “community” and fall under Saint Peter’s in Mountain Home, about 50 miles away. So you can see, we’re very small.

We have a Catholic Charities Long-term Disaster Recovery team, and work over the long haul with disaster victims (given the tornado that hit the town in February, and the flood the following month, we have several people we’re helping.)

Catholic Charities gave us a $10,000 block grant. We use that money to buy catfish, seasoning, and so on, and hold fish-fries. For about $300, we can sell about $1,000 worth of tickets. And that $1,000 goes to a family in need.

For every dollar we get, we hand out three dollars to those in need. And that’s over and above the counciling, administrative and physical work we do.

Let’s see the government match that!

 

[goofyjim]

Yay, someone else has read the Constitution! If state governents wanted to adopt some form of a healthcare system, that would be a Constitutional approach. It would also solve the problem, I think. Liberals/Socialists would move to those states and Conservatives would move away from those states. Everyone could be happy.

Enough is enough. Maybe the Constitution didn’t originally intend for UHC but it doesn’t explicitly or implicitly forbid it either. The Constitution can change. It is not meant to be like the Ten Commandments where you can’t add or take away anything. It’s not some document or law from God. It’s a manmade governing charter that is meant to grow. Otherwise we would not have added amendments to the original Bill of Rights and might still have slaves in this country.

 

[stinkcat_14]

For every dollar we get, we hand out three dollars to those in need. And that’s over and above the counciling, administrative and physical work we do.

Let’s see the government match that!

So are you saying that if the someone gave you $5 million you could provide $15 million in services, over and above the overhead?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Enough is enough. Maybe the Constitution didn’t originally intend for UHC but it doesn’t explicitly or implicitly forbid it either.

Actually, it does:

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Since Universal Health Care is not delegated to the United States, it is reserved to the states or to the people.

The Constitution can change.

Through the Amendment process. You are perfectly free to try to start an amendment for Universal Health Care.

It is not meant to be like the Ten Commandments where you can’t add or take away anything. It’s not some document or law from God. It’s a manmade governing charter that is meant to grow. Otherwise we would not have added amendments to the original Bill of Rights and might still have slaves in this country.

Through this process:

Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

But absent such an amendment, following the above process, the Tenth Amendment reserves health care to the states or to the people.

 

[vern_humphrey]

So are you saying that if the someone gave you $5 million you could provide $15 million in services, over and above the overhead?

Yep – I’d first distribute the money in block grants to all the parishes and Catholic communities in the Diocese, and hold meetings with the Knights of Columbus to establish procedures for their fund-raising activities, using the $5 million as seed money.

 

[goofyjim]

Actually, it does:

Since Universal Health Care is not delegated to the United States, it is reserved to the states or to the people.

Through the Amendment process. You are perfectly free to try to start an amendment for Universal Health Care.

Through this process:

But absent such an amendment, following the above process, the Tenth Amendment reserves health care to the states or to the people.

Then let’s have the states start healthcare. If you don’t like it stay out of my state. And if the majority in each state votes to have it you’ll still have to abide by it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Then let’s have the states start healthcare. If you don’t like it stay out of my state. And if the majority in each state votes to have it you’ll still have to abide by it.

You bamboozle your state legislature into it, and I’ll explain to my state legislature that there are a lot better and more efficient ways to accomplish the same thing.

 

[Sailka]

In Overview, these are preciselly the opposite of Our Lord And Church’s teachings, because they are Totally focused on one’s Property and wealth rights, which are a False God prohibited by God himself. Nowhere are Noblesse Oblige or helping others stated. Helping the needy has never been an automatic spinoff of big wealth helping the needy, of education, food, healthcare, getting a job. The First Commmandment Prohibits worshipping the false god of wealth, property and power therefom. Catechsm (CAT) 2112, 2113, Psalm 115:4-5, etc

1. God’s Law Governs Nations as Well as Men.

The Ten Commandments should not only be enshrined in our courthouses, they should be engraved in our hearts and minds as guides to all behavior, public and private. As the Founders acknowledged in the Declaration of Independence, laws and policies that violate the natural law are abuses of government power that must be resisted and reversed.

2. Life Is the First God-Given RightIt’s always wrong to deliberately take an innocent human life. When this principle is abridged, violence escalates. Thus we have aborted 47 million unborn babies in the past three decades, begun to accept euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide, and stand at the threshold of cloning human beings for the specific purpos… 3. Marriage and Family Come Before the State and Deserve Its ProtectionThe marriage of one man and one woman is the natural foundation of all human society, and the means by which children ought to be brought into the world and taught the basic values of our civilization. Government has a duty to recognize and protect the family and must not grant alternative relationships the same status and privileges. 4. Freedom of Conscience is the Soul of Liberty Understanding that freedom of conscience is at the heart of liberty, the Framers protected freedom of religion and assembly in the 1st Amendment. Movements to force the Boy Scouts to accept homosexual scout masters, or to compel religious individuals or organizations to distribute birth control or abortion drugs against their beliefs, directly attack these freedoms. **5. Private Property is the Servant of Freedom
It Is? Servant of what kind freedom? To enrich oneself? What about Responsibilities to others?

**The more that individuals, families and businesses can acquire and control the goods necessary to sustain and advance themselves, the more autonomy they will have from the state and others who may wish to unjustly restrict their freedom.

So Government is inherently evil? No! Government should work for the common good, including the wealthy and the poor, as appropriate. The Wealthy, and property owners have major obligations to those whu need helo. Noblesse Oblige.
The free and responsible use of private property tends to create greater wealth and greater freedom for greater numbers of people.

The opposite has been true with worldwide Globalization, which is against Church and Cultural preservation. The reality is that Now the Biggest Money and corporations Literrally Rule the USA, through This enrich the richest administration. The new agenda is Now Welfare has been reversed to the Biggest, most profitable corporations, with massive tax cuts and subsidies and financial inducements, Has no one noticed? And the USA is Genuinly bankrupt. Actually. The Current Deficits these months are the the highest in history. What would Jesus do? What did he Teach?

**6. Government Dependency is the Seed of Tyranny
So why are Biggest corporations and wealthiest being subsidized and protected by this Globalization administration? They rule now, enriching themselves and Chinese and Saudi T-bill buyers.
Is Anyone Not aware that the USA is genuinly bankrupt now, because of this all big wealth adminitration? And Foreign wealth trying to buy controlling inteterests in USA?
**
The more that individuals, families and businesses are dependent on the state for the goods necessary to sustain and advance themselves, the less autonomy they will have from the state and others who may wish to unjustly restrict their freedom.
Please see above.

This is why expanding the welfare state is bad,
So why give big oil and pharmaceuticals massive federal tax breaks and subsidies? As initiated by this Big wealth admimnistration? While they are most profitable, and USA has biggest deficits? How can these be justified as Christian, or just in any way?

and Social Security personal retirement accounts, Health Savings Accounts and school choice are good.

SSA is not a retirement system, and is not welfare. It is Disability, Retirement, and Survivors Insurance for the Family. And has col increases annually. And 1% overhead operational costs. The highly volatile, more than ever, stock market is worst way to depend on the future. I had friend, office worker, with her company stock plan. She became $37,000 in Debt, Then dollars, in October 1987 Stock market crash, with $15,000 then salary.

                                                                                    Health  savings accounts?   Who will pay my   'donations'.  And what about   Big   Health problem?  Paid from Savings?

7. The Constitution Means What It Says
Are you not aware that the US Constitution is a model ideal Outline? Was Sigma Delta Kappa in Law School, and am Fiscal conservative socially responsible Catholic, living the Lord and Churches way, not my self-centered ideas

Believing in the God-given rights of man and understanding the imperfect nature of human beings, the Framers crafted a Constitution designed to protect the former from the latter.

Many of the problems in U.S. government would be resolved if the President, Congress and Courts limited themselves and each other to the authority the Constitution actually grants them.
Where are massive tax breaks and federal funding of Massive profits oil companies in the constitution? Where are guaranteed major profits in now most things privatized from US Government in the Constitution? Privatized Contract warriors, no regulation, earning Number of times more than US Armed forces in the Constitution? A couple of states tried making the state constitution all laws of the state. Turned out to be disaster

8. Taxes Are Justified Only to Fund Necessary Government SpendingA massive and complex tax code has become a powerful weapon politicians can use to pressure citizens to behave as the politicians, or the interest groups that support the politicians, wish. The correct function of taxation is to equitably collect only that revenue needed to fund the legitimate activities of a constitutionally limited government.

9. National Defense Is Just ThatThe first duty of the federal government is to defend the American people against foreign enemies. While advancing freedom in the world is good in itself—and, where it prudently can be done, would advance the interests of the United States–ultimately, the mandate for our national leaders is to use whatever moral means they can to carve out that path in our relations with foreign powers that is most likely to lead to enhanced security, prosperity and freedom for this nation.

                                                                                         Our Grandchildren can never begin to pay the Vast  Bankruptcy  the  last   3 Big Money Rules  administrations chose to  create, so privatized also

10. We Should Strive to Give Our Children a Better Country

America is more than just an expanse of territory or a set of laws. It is a culture, whose art, architecture, journalism, music, movies, television, schools and universities, should reflect and reinforce the traditional values that made this country great. We owe this to our children, who will build the America of tomorrow on the foundation of the America we teach them to love today. /quote]

Bears repeating!

We all need to follow our Lord, and His Church’s teachings, of Noblesse Oblige. And stop the Worship of Me and My Money/Property false god.

 

[Caesar517]

I was going to quote the Constitution, but Vern beat me to it.

Then let’s have the states start healthcare. If you don’t like it stay out of my state. And if the majority in each state votes to have it you’ll still have to abide by it.

I think that’s a wonderful idea. All the Liberal/Socialists can move to those states and the Conservatives can live in the others. We will see which states collapse first.

 

[Sailka]

I was going to quote the Constitution, but Vern beat me to it.

I think that’s a wonderful idea. All the Liberal/Socialists can move to those states and the Conservatives can live in the others. We will see which states collapse first.

                                                                                           The  First and Only formerly richest country has  Bankrupted itself, by Tax cuts to Richest, most profitable corporations, like Oil, Pharmaceutical, and formerly Financial,   Being  subsidized, welfared  by the Globalization  National Government of this  Radical liberal financing administration.                                  Are  you not aware that   China, Saudia, Japan are  keeping us Afloat,   and trying to  buy out our   High Technolgy  (IBM was bought by our landlord > red china), financial and energy  infrastucture?    Where is  Noblesse Oblige, or   fiscal conservatism?                                                                          Aware we have the most  failed of advanced countries health care  business  system of  Tens of thousands of  Companies, with vast  Denial of service Bearocracies?                                                                                                                                                                    Aware  we pay at least Twice as much per  capita  for this very defective system?    Know that the Highest rated  Health care system is the French, National System?  My Sis is an RN there.                                                                                                                                                                               Know  the  highest standard of living, Happiest populations,   greatest per capita Charity dionation   rates are the National Health care,  top business  nations of scandinavia and   iceland, europe?    Notice  which high tech  country now  builds the most advanced tech USA   18 wheeler Tractors?  Volvo!                       Know  the Top Aircraft producers now?   National Health and Education   European  Airbus.  Know who building the DC-9 looking smaller passenger liners?  Brazilian/Canadian Embraer  A-119-120.                                                                                                                                                                                        What is Value of the almighty Dollar?   Fell through the floor  as  'worthless' , because this fiscally   Liberal   Administration  made it so,   by welfaring the   wealthiest.                                                                           And where have USA jobs gone?  Shipped overseas, at  taxpayer expense.    Fox  news never gives real news, only their agenda.                                                                                    Reality  and our  now hopeless  economy   Are the  Facts, disproving the  radical liberalism of   Me and My  Wealth   agenda.    Only a few  at top  now Rule the USA  and   are  Subsidized by us  formerly  hopeful Americans.                                                                          Where is Any   Christianity, or  Noblesse  Oblige,  or Fiscal Responsibility in Any of   this agenda  you   dream you love?

And the stories of Long lines to see Doctors, or coming to the USA are False propaganda we have swallowed. Fact, been in News that people going to India for advanced operations vacations… Before the Dollar fell through the floor. Labels and Hype and false stories don’t work. Nor Subsidizing the Richest. Reality sets in, with National Bankruptcy and tailspinning Dollar. . A true Catholic fiscal conservative, who lives Noblesse Oblige. Vivat Jesus, not self

 

[peary]

And the stories of Long lines to see Doctors, or coming to the USA are False. Propaganda we have swallowed. I fact, Been in News that people going to India for advanced operations vacations… Before the Dollar fell through the floor. Labels and Hype and false stories don’t work. Nor Subsidizing the Richest. Reality sets in, With National Bankruptcy and Tailspinning Dollar. . A True Catholic fiscal conservative, who lives Noblesse Oblige. Vivat Jesus, not self

**Italy’s healthcare system is in shambles. I give the case of my cousin. At 62 years of age, he needed by-pass surgery but, because of their healthcare, he only received angioplasty; he did not qualify for bypass surgery because he was “beyond” the age as specified in Italian benefits. He only lived a year longer. If he had bypass surgery, he would have lived five + years longer.

My other cousin had emphysema, but the only thing they gave him was an oxygen canister to take home with him. He did not qualify for any medication. He was 71. Because of this, he died.

I expect nothing less from a government-run healthcare system here in the states.**

 

[Sailka]

Sorry. This is One Case in One Country. What could he expect in USA in His Financial condition? THAT is the Question> Only big Money works in USA. Am Sorry! Tony

 

[Sailka]

Then let’s have the states start healthcare. If you don’t like it stay out of my state. And if the majority in each state votes to have it you’ll still have to abide by it.

                                                                                           Only thing it takes under Our Constution is  for Congress  to Pass it.    Clinton Health Plan of  1993 was Ideal, Included business, and Based on the Best USA Health  Systems  < Catholic.   It failed by couple Republcam Votes.

We are a Nation, not bunch of states. Does each state have its own armed forces? Operating on Hundreds of Local School systens is Why our Secondary education is So Defective. National systems have Far less Beaurocracy, Far better results. Why do small towns have own scool boards? Each County also? Each county also has own zoning, licensing regulations. How can business cope? It can’t! God Bless.

 

[Sailka]

Please see my Reply at # 250. Am not WORD Wise, only Smart guy(z)

 

[LCMS_No_More]

The Church and Christianity is individualistic. We will be judged as individuals. We sin and do good as indiviuals. We give charity as individuals.

The Church is most certainly NOT individualistic. That’s a uniquely American and protestant idea. It’s actualy quite a sickening notion.

We are saved IN the Church, which is a society. What we do, as Catholics, affects the whole Church, not just ourselves. If we sin, we not only hurt ourselves, but the Church, which is why we must be reconciled WITH the Church through the Sacrament of Penance, or Reconciliation. If we do an act worthy of merit, it is to the benefit of the Church. Ever hear of the treasury of merit? That’s not something you do on your own (individualism), it’s something that you partake of as a member of the Church.

If we, as a society (whether civil or ecclesial), create situations in which it is tougher for the poor to survive or to empower themselves so they can “get ahead,” it will bring all of society down as well as contribute to a not-so-happy judgement day.

If we, as a society (whether civil or ecclesial), create situations in which it is easier for the poor to “get a leg up,” it will be to our benefit and that of the whole of society.

Right-wing ideology and Christianity don’t mix because Christianity isn’t about “me and my Bible and Jesus,” it’s about being a part of the one, holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is decidedly NOT individualistic.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Is it so bad to say that millionaires should help pay for health care for those who cannot afford it? Medicine is something that all people should get, rich or poor.

Well, you know, the rich are so downtrodden and abused. We have to have pity on those who are so downtrodden that they only have a few million dollars in assets. It’s so cruel to these beleaguered souls who are struggling to scrape by on millions of after-tax dollars a year.

 

[Caesar517]

Right-wing ideology and Christianity don’t mix because Christianity isn’t about “me and my Bible and Jesus,” it’s about being a part of the one, holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is decidedly NOT individualistic.

Right-wing ideology isn’t about “me and my Bible and Jesus” either. How is right-wing ideology and Christianity incompatable?

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I was going to quote the Constitution, but Vern beat me to it.

I think that’s a wonderful idea. All the Liberal/Socialists can move to those states and the Conservatives can live in the others. We will see which states collapse first.

Well, considering the “liberal/socialist” states usually contribute more in taxes to the Feds than they get back in funding and services and the “conservative” states usually end up getting more in funding and services that they contribute to the Feds, I wonder which ones that would be.

I think the first step is to let California and other contributor states get back exactly what they contribute. Let the cons fend for themselves.