Is fiscal conservatism not Christian?

[vern_humphrey]

My bad, I misread you. Ok, so if Microsoft does have monopoly power, is it immoral for them to use it to raise their prices?

Actually, they lower their prices and make money from volume – as you know.

If it is a sin, the government is involved. There can be no monopoly without government enforcement.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Actually, they lower their prices and make money from volume – as you know.

If it is a sin, the government is involved. There can be no monopoly without government enforcement.

But of course, their prices are higher than they would be if there were truly a competitive market, are they not?

 

[vern_humphrey]

But of course, their prices are higher than they would be if there were truly a competitive market, are they not?

Speak to the government about that. If Microsoft is overcharging, they only do it because the government supports them.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Speak to the government about that. If Microsoft is overcharging, they only do it because the government supports them.

If they are charging a price that is higher than that which would occur in a truly competitive market, is that morally legitimate?

 

[vern_humphrey]

If they are charging a price that is higher than that which would occur in a truly competitive market, is that morally legitimate?

Speak to the government about that. If Microsoft is overcharging, they only do it because the government supports them.

If sin there be, it must equally fall on the government.

 

[peary]

Wouldn’t supporting government policies that help the sick and the poor the most – such as universal health care, accident insurance and minimum wage – be the most Christly thing to do? The argument against that is that it means we have less economic freedom, though our primary concern is to help the poor, which charity simply cannot account for by itself.

A recent statistic has shown that conservatives give more to charities than do liberals.

 

[peary]

What do conservatives believe? Here are 10 principles worth pondering. How are these against our Catholic Faith?

**1. God’s Law Governs Nations as Well as Men.**The Ten Commandments should not only be enshrined in our courthouses, they should be engraved in our hearts and minds as guides to all behavior, public and private. As the Founders acknowledged in the Declaration of Independence, laws and policies that violate the natural law are abuses of government power that must be resisted and reversed.

2. Life Is the First God-Given RightIt’s always wrong to deliberately take an innocent human life. When this principle is abridged, violence escalates. Thus we have aborted 47 million unborn babies in the past three decades, begun to accept euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide, and stand at the threshold of cloning human beings for the specific purpose of killing them.

3. Marriage and Family Come Before the State and Deserve Its ProtectionThe marriage of one man and one woman is the natural foundation of all human society, and the means by which children ought to be brought into the world and taught the basic values of our civilization. Government has a duty to recognize and protect the family and must not grant alternative relationships the same status and privileges.

4. Freedom of Conscience is the Soul of Liberty
Understanding that freedom of conscience is at the heart of liberty, the Framers protected freedom of religion and assembly in the 1st Amendment. Movements to force the Boy Scouts to accept homosexual scout masters, or to compel religious individuals or organizations to distribute birth control or abortion drugs against their beliefs, directly attack these freedoms.

5. Private Property is the Servant of FreedomThe more that individuals, families and businesses can acquire and control the goods necessary to sustain and advance themselves, the more autonomy they will have from the state and others who may wish to unjustly restrict their freedom. The free and responsible use of private property tends to create greater wealth and greater freedom for greater numbers of people.

6. Government Dependency is the Seed of Tyranny
The more that individuals, families and businesses are dependent on the state for the goods necessary to sustain and advance themselves, the less autonomy they will have from the state and others who may wish to unjustly restrict their freedom. This is why expanding the welfare state is bad, and Social Security personal retirement accounts, Health Savings Accounts and school choice are good.

7. The Constitution Means What It Says
Believing in the God-given rights of man and understanding the imperfect nature of human beings, the Framers crafted a Constitution designed to protect the former from the latter. Many of the problems in U.S. government would be resolved if the President, Congress and Courts limited themselves and each other to the authority the Constitution actually grants them.

8. Taxes Are Justified Only to Fund Necessary Government SpendingA massive and complex tax code has become a powerful weapon politicians can use to pressure citizens to behave as the politicians, or the interest groups that support the politicians, wish. The correct function of taxation is to equitably collect only that revenue needed to fund the legitimate activities of a constitutionally limited government.

9. National Defense Is Just ThatThe first duty of the federal government is to defend the American people against foreign enemies. While advancing freedom in the world is good in itself—and, where it prudently can be done, would advance the interests of the United States–ultimately, the mandate for our national leaders is to use whatever moral means they can to carve out that path in our relations with foreign powers that is most likely to lead to enhanced security, prosperity and freedom for this nation.

10. We Should Strive to Give Our Children a Better Country
America is more than just an expanse of territory or a set of laws. It is a culture, whose art, architecture, journalism, music, movies, television, schools and universities, should reflect and reinforce the traditional values that made this country great. We owe this to our children, who will build the America of tomorrow on the foundation of the America we teach them to love today.

 

[Sailka]

A recent statistic has shown that conservatives give more to charities than do liberals.

Please see #137 above for the complete facts. (And it is not ‘government’ that has been the problem, but the all biggest money, biggest business, biggest wealth subsidizing current administration. The result is USA is now officially bankrupt. Not because of the false war, but because tax rates on richest 5% were slashed in 2001, begining massive deficits, with resulting bankruptcy of USA, and its future. Any morality in that? Not in enriching the richest, last time I heard. Live in reality, not political hype. Vivat Jesu, not self. PS: where is that statistic of conserrvatives giving more money?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Please see #137 above for the complete facts. (And it is not ‘government’ that has been the problem, but the all biggest money, biggest business, biggest wealth subsidizing current administration. The result is USA is now officially bankrupt. Not because of the false war, but because tax rates on richest 5% were slashed in 2001, begining massive deficits, with resulting bankruptcy of USA, and its future. Any morality in that? Not in enriching the richest, last time I heard. Live in reality, not political hype. Vivat Jesu, not self. PS: where is that statistic of conserrvatives giving more money?

I guess you’ll just have to work harder, then, so you can pay more taxes.

 

[bilop]

:clapping:

QFE. Seriously people, read your Belloc and Chesterton while you’re at it. Distributism as an economic organizing principle is fantastic.

State-charity kills human-charity. Why? Because charity is hard work, and most human beings – being sinners – do not mind giving hard work to a 3rd-party to do while contributing no hard work themselves. “Well isn’t a private charity a ‘3rd party’?” Private charities are different because they are run independently by private citizens, not by hired bureaucrats. For private charities to exist, Christians have to contribute their time, money, and work directly and voluntarily. This is real, human charity, not a self-maintaining machine like State-charity.

“So why not support both?” Two reasons:
(a) State-charity takes away funds that could be used to support private charity. Resources taken by force from one must result in not as much being given to the other. The opposite cannot occur because no private charity can force you to give money.
(b) This has been brought up before, and should turn everyone away from State-charity immediately: who makes the decisions? If a private charity you support decides to give in on some moral issue that’s important to you, you may withdraw your support and give it to someone else. This is impossible with State-charity.

For all those who think that statism can be squared with Christianity, give it up already. The State is secular and anti-Christian and it is never coming back. Furthermore, the inherent utopianism of State-charity is anti-Christian. Stop feeding the vampire, and instead help folks like me kill it so that we can get back to living sane lives again.

God Bless,
Telemachus

Brilliant Post! :clapping:

 

[stinkcat_14]

Speak to the government about that. If Microsoft is overcharging, they only do it because the government supports them.

If sin there be, it must equally fall on the government.

Is it sinful to use monopoly power, with or without the governments help, to raise the price above that which would occur in a competitive market?

 

[Caesar517]

Is it sinful to use monopoly power, with or without the governments help, to raise the price above that which would occur in a competitive market?

How is that related to the topic at hand? It sounds like a good discussion for a different thread.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Is it sinful to use monopoly power, with or without the governments help, to raise the price above that which would occur in a competitive market?

If you think what Microsoft has done is sinful, tell the government to stop enforcing his contracts.

Now, can we put the red herrings back in the freezer and return to the topic of the thread?

 

[Sheeniac]

Now lets say we want to utilize the government in caring for the poor. How shall we do it? Should we use taxes to directly give them cash, regulate unfair business practices, outlaw factors that lead to poverty (e.g. divorce), subsidize big business to lower food prices, or increase opportunities for employment (to name a few)?

Clearly there are manifold ways to approach this problem, and the question is not that we should, but how we should balance each method to efficiently yet lovingly eliminate poverty.

I do not believe that we can eliminate poverty. Even Christ said that. And, poverty is a relative term, at least in our environment.

That said, if we have to part with our cash for it to be redistributed, I think the best thing might be to have the gov’t take 10% off the whole for processing, and just give the poor the cash themselves. Eliminate all of the bureaucrats, and not let those accepting the new welfare vote. No representation with out taxation (or at least a net 0) so that they cannot vote themselves ‘pay increases’.

I really think we’d save a ton of taxpayer money.

 

[Sheeniac]

Facts refute your opinions. (1) “heartless conservatives” do have vastly more money, and do write more tax deduction checks to charities. (2) ‘Liberals’ are far poorer, so can give little. But studies found poor people, aka liberals, have far higher % giving, although little. (3) “Heartless conservatives” write checks to charity, and have fundraising galas, rsvp.

I had to stop there. You are falling victim to class warfare. Replace conservative with Rich and liberal with Poor, and maybe you are right.

BUT… many conservatives are not rich, and many of the rich are liberals.

Since I disagree with your basic premises, I disagree with all of your statements, which are NOT facts, BTW. I understand your personal situation colors your thinking, but are you even aware of it?

 

[Sailka]

I had to stop there. You are falling victim to class warfare. Replace conservative with Rich and liberal with Poor, and maybe you are right.

BUT… many conservatives are not rich, and many of the rich are liberals.

Since I disagree with your basic premises, I disagree with all of your statements, which are NOT facts, BTW. I understand your personal situation colors your thinking, but are you even aware of it?

Have to stop you in your opinions, brother. Pls see #137, 148 above (1) Am true conservative, and sicially, fiscally very responsible, but no spins. (2) Am WW II Refuggee, who lived as child under another big business ‘conservative’, like we have now in White House < all war, all military power, no financial or social responsibility. No truth, either. (3) Have been opposite of class warfare, lifetime. I respect all classes, ethnicities, religions, as Holy Church does. (4) It is factually, documented true that ‘conservatives’ worship their wealth, and from that their ‘power’. They almost never get personally involved with helping the poor in person, only by check. (5) All my statements are all totally Facts based. With no political spins or hype. I repeatedly ask for documentation of all the social conservative allegations, but there are none. (6) Have focused for 59 years on getting definitive bottom line facts, on all key issues, from which I make my statements. (7) For instance smallish minorities of conservatives are poor, and ditto liberals wealthy. Please refute Factually, if can (8) My great poverty situation does not color my statements. Am very poor, but very intellectually and factually unbiased, especially as opposed by all sekf serving opinions by self-lasbeled fiscal conservatives. (9) For instance, how can Anyone justify tax slashes on richest individuals and corporations, which export American jobs and manufacturing to low cost labor foreign countries, at tax payer expense? (10) Are you aware that the current fiscally very liberal administration has bankrupted the USA, Fiscally and morally? Those analyses of mine are totally backed factually. (11) As fr Mitch Pacwa SJ observed last year, it is not whether ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’, but right or wrong. Amen I say. Vivat Jesu, brother, not in self-interest.

 

[peary]

What do conservatives believe? Here are the 10 principles of Conservatism worth pondering. How are these against our Catholic Faith? Any takers?

**1. God’s Law Governs Nations as Well as Men.**The Ten Commandments should not only be enshrined in our courthouses, they should be engraved in our hearts and minds as guides to all behavior, public and private. As the Founders acknowledged in the Declaration of Independence, laws and policies that violate the natural law are abuses of government power that must be resisted and reversed.

2. Life Is the First God-Given RightIt’s always wrong to deliberately take an innocent human life. When this principle is abridged, violence escalates. Thus we have aborted 47 million unborn babies in the past three decades, begun to accept euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide, and stand at the threshold of cloning human beings for the specific purpose of killing them.

3. Marriage and Family Come Before the State and Deserve Its ProtectionThe marriage of one man and one woman is the natural foundation of all human society, and the means by which children ought to be brought into the world and taught the basic values of our civilization. Government has a duty to recognize and protect the family and must not grant alternative relationships the same status and privileges.

4. Freedom of Conscience is the Soul of Liberty
Understanding that freedom of conscience is at the heart of liberty, the Framers protected freedom of religion and assembly in the 1st Amendment. Movements to force the Boy Scouts to accept homosexual scout masters, or to compel religious individuals or organizations to distribute birth control or abortion drugs against their beliefs, directly attack these freedoms.

5. Private Property is the Servant of FreedomThe more that individuals, families and businesses can acquire and control the goods necessary to sustain and advance themselves, the more autonomy they will have from the state and others who may wish to unjustly restrict their freedom. The free and responsible use of private property tends to create greater wealth and greater freedom for greater numbers of people.

6. Government Dependency is the Seed of Tyranny
The more that individuals, families and businesses are dependent on the state for the goods necessary to sustain and advance themselves, the less autonomy they will have from the state and others who may wish to unjustly restrict their freedom. This is why expanding the welfare state is bad, and Social Security personal retirement accounts, Health Savings Accounts and school choice are good.

7. The Constitution Means What It Says
Believing in the God-given rights of man and understanding the imperfect nature of human beings, the Framers crafted a Constitution designed to protect the former from the latter. Many of the problems in U.S. government would be resolved if the President, Congress and Courts limited themselves and each other to the authority the Constitution actually grants them.

8. Taxes Are Justified Only to Fund Necessary Government SpendingA massive and complex tax code has become a powerful weapon politicians can use to pressure citizens to behave as the politicians, or the interest groups that support the politicians, wish. The correct function of taxation is to equitably collect only that revenue needed to fund the legitimate activities of a constitutionally limited government.

9. National Defense Is Just ThatThe first duty of the federal government is to defend the American people against foreign enemies. While advancing freedom in the world is good in itself—and, where it prudently can be done, would advance the interests of the United States–ultimately, the mandate for our national leaders is to use whatever moral means they can to carve out that path in our relations with foreign powers that is most likely to lead to enhanced security, prosperity and freedom for this nation.

10. We Should Strive to Give Our Children a Better Country
America is more than just an expanse of territory or a set of laws. It is a culture, whose art, architecture, journalism, music, movies, television, schools and universities, should reflect and reinforce the traditional values that made this country great. We owe this to our children, who will build the America of tomorrow on the foundation of the America we teach them to love today.

 

[Olivermax]

Bravo Peary! Well Said. That Is Just What I Believe.

 

[stinkcat_14]

1. Taxes Are Justified Only to Fund Necessary Government SpendingA massive and complex tax code has become a powerful weapon politicians can use to pressure citizens to behave as the politicians, or the interest groups that support the politicians, wish. The correct function of taxation is to equitably collect only that revenue needed to fund the legitimate activities of a constitutionally limited government.

The problem I have is that I have never met a true conservative. This issue is great example. We like to complain about our tax code, except when we get goodies out of it. For example, a while back I said we should eliminate the mortgage interest deduction. I was amazed at the number of conservatives who thought that would be terrible for the economy. In other words, what they are saying is that we can’t trust the free market, but we need the government to control the economy. Now tell me, is that a conservative idea or a liberal idea?

 

[Caesar517]

The problem I have is that I have never met a true conservative.

Hello, I’m Caesar. You have now.