Is God a kind, loving God or a mean, vengeful God?

[987mk]

Then how do you explain our capacity for unselfish love and compassion. Are we nobler and superior to our Creator - or whatever has brought us into existence?

We’ve a large and well developed brain.

Compassion is an emotion that occurs in our brains.

Nobleness is a specifically defined character trait.

I would definitely say a physical being is far superior to a supernatural being that may not even exist.

 

[987mk]

When I read in the Bible that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead after 4 days…and it was witnessed by scores of people …that’s enough proof for me.

St. Thomas put his hands in the wounds of Jesus after the Resurrection & said “My Lord & my God”…Jesus said : “Blessed are they who have not seen and believe.”

Again…enough proof! Same with Old Testament miracles.

You believe what your newspaper prints ( maybe not ) so believe the Bible. People have died for what they saw with their own eyes!

Scores of people have a Holy book that is enough proof that Mormonism, Islam and Hinduism is the truth.

I’m not quite sure that one Holy book, out of many Holy books, is what one could consider proof of anything

Why believe the Bible, when you can believe the truth of Quran?

Why believe the Quran, when you can believe the Book of Mormon is the truth?

 

[PRmerger]

Scores of people have a Holy book that is enough proof that Mormonism, Islam and Hinduism is the truth.

I’m not quite sure that one Holy book, out of many Holy books, is what one could consider proof of anything

Why believe the Bible, when you can believe the truth of Quran?

Why believe the Quran, when you can believe the Book of Mormon is the truth?

Because the Bible comes from a Church which records a miracle.

 

[Tom_Baum]

We’ve a large and well developed brain.

Compassion is an emotion that occurs in our brains.

Nobleness is a specifically defined character trait.

I would definitely say a physical being is far superior to a supernatural being that may not even exist.

Would you say that a Being that created a being is inferior to the being that a Being created?

I am not asking if you believe that a Being created another being, I am asking, irregardless of any of your beliefs.

To put it in a “physical sense” would you say a car or computer is superior to the one who built it from scratch, so to speak, not just built it but designed it and everything else about it?

As far as “I would definitely say a physical being is far superior to a supernatural being that may not even exist”.

If this “supernatural being” does not exist than the physical being could not be “far superior” to it or inferior or anything in comparison to it, could it?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

If we happen to believe that Jesus is Who He said He was/is, many of these, “we”, seem to forget or to ignore that Jesus said something to the effect that, “My Kingdom is not of this earth”.

It is written that Jesus said this, isn’t it?

Not all of this “fighting” is religious as some seem to think it to be, but I would say that we, people, are never going to “build the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth”.

"…Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven…"

 

[Tom_Baum]

I would say that God is NOT “a kind, loving God” and I would also say that God is Not “a mean, vengeful God”.

I would say that God Is a Being of Love, in that love is NOT an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being.

 

[Tom_Baum]

"…Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven…"

As you pointed out, Jesus taught us to pray for “God’s Will” when Jesus was asked by the Apostles to teach them how to pray.

And, as it is written, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth”.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

As you pointed out, Jesus taught us to pray for “God’s Will” when Jesus was asked by the Apostles to teach them how to pray.

And, as it is written, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth”.

Amen

 

[thinkandmull]

If we accept Aquinas’s interpretation of predestination, then God loves the “perfection and order of the universe” more than He loves us; that is, He would rather have His glorious justice displayed in the cosmos than save some people from damnation. I don’t see how this could be so however. I’ve struggled with Romans 9 a lot, although I think I now see how it can be reconciled with Molinism now.

Sometimes people, trying to cover for Aquinas, go for ambiguity. James Akin on the radio, as I saw it on youtube, explained to a caller that God loves Satan’s nature, but not his sin. However, the caller was asking if God loved Satan HIMSELF. As apologists say to Protestants, Mary was not just the mother of Jesus’s nature, because a mother is mother over a person, not just a nature.

Aquinas says that God loves in the sense of giving good to people, but doesn’t desire to give the good of eternal life to everyone as much as He desires to display punishment for some of humanity. Aquinas seems to have a deficient understanding of love: how could God be happy with his creation if people He loves as people could have been saved by His power, as the others were? Aquinas has a whole article in the Summa saying that God could do more good than He does. But I guess objective symmetry meant more to Aquinas’s God than His family

 

[987mk]

Because the Bible comes from a Church which records a miracle.

The Quran came directly from God.

 

[987mk]

Would you say that a Being that created a being is inferior to the being that a Being created?

I am not asking if you believe that a Being created another being, I am asking, irregardless of any of your beliefs.

To put it in a “physical sense” would you say a car or computer is superior to the one who built it from scratch, so to speak, not just built it but designed it and everything else about it?

As far as “I would definitely say a physical being is far superior to a supernatural being that may not even exist”.

If this “supernatural being” does not exist than the physical being could not be “far superior” to it or inferior or anything in comparison to it, could it?

It is not outside the realm of possibility that the created, could in fact be far superior than the creator.

 

[OneSheep]

Oh, Randy, I know you want to drop this, but I must make some final comments. Sorry!

You mean other than the fact that they have the stated objective of wiping Israel off the map? No.

So, if one holds the stated objective, by some Muslims, of wiping Israel off the map, against those Muslim people, then we are called to forgive them.

Mark 11:25 NIV
25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. "

I can help you forgive, Randy, it is not easy, but it can be done.

By dog in the fight, I mean that I have no ethnic, marital or religions ties to either group. That said, yes, I am a supporter of Israel because God is their supporter first.

And God doesn’t support the Muslim people? Where did you hear that, Randy? Or did you mean God only supports Muslim people in a secondary way?

While Satan is eager to see any hatred and killing regardless of its source, my view is that he establishes false religions to lead people away from God.

This would mean that satan has power. What are the limits of satan’s power, do you know the limits? If you do not know the limits, then satan has essentially unlimited power. An unknown is an infinite unknown. Even if we say “satan has power, but God has more power”, then we are talking about two powers in the universe. Is that what you are saying?

Do we judge a tree by its fruit? If so, what is the fruit of Islam? 1.2 Billion people led away from Christ?

Any institution, religion, or ideology that leads people to love and forgive one another, Randy, is leading people to Christ. Do you remember, “whoever is not against me is for me”? Yes, we could certainly say that some Muslim people are against Christianity, Judaism, etc. This is not the view of the common follower of Islam. To lead a person in the ways of Love is leading them toward Christ. I am not saying that Islam is better, I am saying that all religions have love at their center in some way, because humans have love at their center.

Hopefully, this clears things up.
No, I did not write anything that does not reflect my thinking. I said exactly what I meant, and I meant exactly what I said.
Yes, I would like to drop the whole thing.

Feel free to drop it, and use my statements as food-for-thought, for what its worth.

I have an eensy little suspicion, though, that you are going to want to respond.

Just a little.

Because you probably almost 99% agree, but its that 1% that you might want to respond to.

God Bless your day, Randy. I know you mean well and that you believe that what you are saying is right, and I understand and accept that.

 

[truetofaith]

It is not outside the realm of possibility that the created, could in fact be far superior than the creator.

You are sort of correct in this. The computer we are using can display information in a few moments that we can never get as fast or at all. A car can go many miles without tiring whereas a human being, cannot. In this respect, it is superior to its creator…but computer & car were designed & made by a human. The machine is not superior enough to decide on its own to build something. The creator is still superior!

 

[OneSheep]

I would agree that “God founded Judaism” since God chose Abram to be the first “Jew” and God went on from there to form the Chosen People.

I refer to Jesus as God-Incarnate since, in my opinion, that is more accurate but not only was it Jesus Who “founded Christianity” but Christianity flowed directly from Judaism so it wasn’t as if it were something completely “new” but something that was/is a natural/supernatural unfolding of what had been started by God.

As far as islam, from what I gather that the “supernatural agent” that came to Muhammed says concerning Jesus and Mary, I would say that the founder of islam was/is satan.

That said, I would add that “God Is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof” and “It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows”.

Tom, Tom, Tom.

I find so many of your posts from the past so open and insightful. Are you really saying that Islam was founded by satan? Please, say it isn’t so…

Thanks, and have a good Sunday.

 

[OneSheep]

It’s very difficult to forgive those bums with the hoods who beheaded innocent journalists, & others and “find their good intent.”

The U.S. should take a stand & find them & eliminate them. It’s a war!

Hi!

Yes, it is very difficult to forgive the people who did those atrocious things, but this is what we are called to do. To me, understanding is very important in helping us to forgive. I start with questions: why did they do those atrocious things? Why would I have done that? Questions like that, along with a lot of prayer.

If we are to go to war, it would be to protect the people who are at risk, not retribution, which is the compulsion that motivates us when we do not forgive. Even those who go do war should forgive their enemies. Yes, of course, it is very difficult - but doable.

Do you see what I’m saying?

Have a nice Sunday.

 

[PRmerger]

The Quran came directly from God.

Proof for this, please!

 

[PRmerger]

It is not outside the realm of possibility that the created, could in fact be far superior than the creator.

Certainly.

But it is absolutely impossible for the creature to be far superior to the God of the Philosophers.

 

[tonyrey]

We’ve a large and well developed brain.

Compassion is an emotion that occurs in our brains.

Nobleness is a specifically defined character trait.

I would definitely say a physical being is far superior to a supernatural being that may not even exist.

You still haven’t explained how our capacity for unselfish love and compassion originated - nor our insight into the nature of the universe and our power of self-control which enables us to dominate our instincts and die for others instead of saving our own skin and living just for ourselves.

You assume we are merely physical beings but all our knowledge is based on our mental activity. How could mindless molecules ever become aware of themselves and understand anything? That would be the greatest miracle in the history of the universe if it were true but it is sheer nonsense. The theory that the mind has somehow been produced by inanimate objects is merely a cloak for ignorance - and wishful thinking by materialists who don’t want to face the fact that there are intangible realities like truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love which are far more valuable and significant than material objects. A brain is a hopelessly inadequate explanation of a person who has moral principles and wants far more out of life than the satisfaction of physical instincts:

It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, is of a different opinion, it is only because they only know their own side of the question.

• John Stuart Mill

 

[Peter_Plato]

If we accept Aquinas’s interpretation of predestination, then God loves the “perfection and order of the universe” more than He loves us; that is, He would rather have His glorious justice displayed in the cosmos than save some people from damnation. I don’t see how this could be so however. I’ve struggled with Romans 9 a lot, although I think I now see how it can be reconciled with Molinism now.

I suspect this critique is based upon a misconception of what Aquinas was really saying. It is not so much that God loves the order and perfection of creation over and above the perfection of human beings, but rather that the perfection and order of creation includes the perfection of the personhood of individual human beings. What sin does is distort human personhood and human nature itself within the sinning individual to the extent that sin (and evil generally) creates disharmony in all of creation. Individual human persons who sin are degenerating their own nature to the point that their own nature is not sustainable within the harmony and order of the creation. In a sense, sin destabilizes human individuals as aspects of creation, thereby creating unsustainable disorder in creation. Unsustainable in the sense that evil becomes entrenched in the very will of the individual such that their personhood becomes irreparable or unredeemable and “invasive” to the order of creation. Think of how a malignant cancer cell becomes an “enemy” within the very body that has generated its existence as a cell. The cancer cell becomes disharmonious with the rest of the body and threatens the life of the entire body because it doesn’t function in a manner harmonious to the entire body.

 

[Peter_Plato]

It is not outside the realm of possibility that the created, could in fact be far superior than the creator.

Measured by what standard?

The limited experiences and knowledge of “the created” that would define the standard as measured by the bias of that limited existence?