Is God allowing Satan to do evil the same as God committing the evil Himself?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Robert_Sock
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First off, stop reading wacky Ye Olde English translations like Douay-Rheims (no offense to those who actually read Douay-Rheims ¯_(ツ)_/¯) and try one that will illuminate and supplement your knowledge of the Word. Here’s that exact same verse you cited (Isaiah 45:7) in a Modern English translation:

“I create both light and darkness/I bring both blessing and disaster/I, the LORD, do all these things.” (GNT)

Key translation discrepancy there: “disaster” instead of “evil.” This is the same as the King James and Douay-Rheims translations of Exodus 32:14, which say “God repented of this evil” even though we know that that’s an inherently blasphemous statement. God is not evil and cannot do evil. He is literally incapable of it in any case. And he CERTAINLY doesn’t “repent”. God has no confessor. If he did, that would be a pretty sad excuse for a god. It would mean God makes massive, horrible mistakes and needs to make amends for them. Seriously, that’s not a god. Modern translations appropriately render it in some fashion as “God reconsidered his threat,” “decided not to bring this disaster,” etc. God says in Revelation that He WILL bring “disaster” on the wicked during the last days. Very violent disaster. He will rain hailstones and send untold armies of scorpions and cause the worst earthquakes that have ever been seen upon Earth since its creation. All in order to punish the wicked. Does this mean He is performing evil acts? Well, since this is His justice and vengeance against the wicked who have persecuted helpless humans and persecuted Christ all over again…no. Obviously not. This is the enemy. God gave them every chance for mercy until He just got sick of being rejected by those who will always hate Him. It becomes clear that they will never change and He will become sick of seeing His people persecuted and violated by unimaginable evil.

God, AGAIN, is not allowing Satan to do evil because He gets a big laff out of seeing evil things happening, He is not “the master troll” as I’ve heard some atheists label Him. He allows it because he is waiting for Satan and evil humans to turn back to Him. They continue to ignore His Word even though he’s left it in thousands of languages. There are surely only a handful of obscure languages that the Word of God has not been translated into…yet. Kim Jong-Un, Stephen Fry, Charles Manson, Marilyn Manson, every member of ISIS, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, those Aum Shimrikyo guys, and every other evil guy and hater of God you can think of in the entire world, in every language and culture since Jesus Christ have absolutely zero excuses for not believing in Jesus Christ, studying and loving and following His Word and preparing themselves for the return of our Lord and king and eternal life in God’s holy kingdom of unending goodness and righteousness. They are receiving chance after chance. God could end all of our lives with a single word from some God-language we could never wrap our heads around. The Earth would end and the Solar System would burn up and God could just start all over again. But he would rather extend mercy to us and wait for His Word to click in our heads and then we will start preparing and living holy lives.

/holy rant
 
I was hoping anyone who responded would read my example, then apply it to the next level. So, if the man were given the choice to start over and save everybody… what if one of the people he ends up saving were to do something even worse than what both of his other options caused?
This wouldn’t happen in a perfect scenario. Perfect scenarios are impossible for humans, but possible for God. God can do anything, which is why I don’t understand why these scenarios all have drawbacks. That wouldn’t happen to God, considering His ability to create perfection. The man, if he had the powers that God had, should be able to save everybody and create a ripple effect of perfection, not cause more disaster.
 
This wouldn’t happen in a perfect scenario. Perfect scenarios are impossible for humans, but possible for God. God can do anything, which is why I don’t understand why these scenarios all have drawbacks. That wouldn’t happen to God, considering His ability to create perfection. The man, if he had the powers that God had, should be able to save everybody and create a ripple effect of perfection, not cause more disaster.
What do you mean by perfection? What is a perfect scenario and why would God create that scenario?
 
What do you mean by perfection? What is a perfect scenario and why would God create that scenario?
I’m saying the manufactured conflict created for the sake of this analogy does not properly take into account the fact that God could easily surpass all of these obstacles as He is perfect.
 
I’m saying the manufactured conflict created for the sake of this analogy does not properly take into account the fact that God could easily surpass all of these obstacles as He is perfect.
But isn’t this an assumption? I don’t know that God’s perfect nature necessitates the ideal world that you want. Can God create a world where nobody sins? If you are talking about a world where nobody had the freewill to choose love, and people just automatically loved one another unconditionally without question, i don’t think that God can create such a world without violating his nature because in that case he would be forcing human beings to love him. God wants a real relationship, not some manufactured robot obeying his commands.
 
This wouldn’t happen in a perfect scenario. Perfect scenarios are impossible for humans, but possible for God. God can do anything, which is why I don’t understand why these scenarios all have drawbacks. That wouldn’t happen to God, considering His ability to create perfection. The man, if he had the powers that God had, should be able to save everybody and create a ripple effect of perfection, not cause more disaster.
Then I think we need to discuss what perfection means in relation to God. Is God powerful enough to create a “ripple effect of perfection”? Of course. What room, though, would that leave for free will?
 
But isn’t this an assumption? I don’t know that God’s perfect nature necessitates the ideal world that you want. Can God create a world where nobody sins? If you are talking about a world where nobody had the freewill to choose love, and people just automatically loved one another unconditionally without question, i don’t think that God can create such a world without violating his nature because in that case he would be forcing human beings to love him. God wants a real relationship, not some manufactured robot obeying his commands.
It’s not an assumption to say that God is omnipotent, no. I thought this was agreed upon?Job 42:2, among many other verses, explains this…

God is all powerful, He can do absolutely anything. It doesn’t mean that He is going to do something, but He is perfectly capable of creating a world filled only with unconditional love and He is the one choosing not to do so. God chose to allow evil, it could not exist without His permission. Why would He do such a thing, when it all could have been avoided, since God is capable of creating non-evildoing freedom? That’s all I ask.
 
It’s not an assumption to say that God is omnipotent, no. I thought this was agreed upon?Job 42:2, among many other verses, explains this…
God’s omnipotence is not an assumption. But what you think God is able to do without violating his nature and the dignity of his creation is certainly an assumption.
 
Then I think we need to discuss what perfection means in relation to God. Is God powerful enough to create a “ripple effect of perfection”? Of course. What room, though, would that leave for free will?
I don’t want this free will. I didn’t choose to have free will in the first place, so is it really free? It’s more like God is forcing us to choose between good and evil so that we can appreciate His glory all the more… Which feels quite vain to me. This is an issue I’ve always had. We exist to glorify Him and for some reason, this rubs me the wrong way.

Why must we suffer for something we did not choose, and in my case, did not ever want?
 
That is not true. God cannot and will not force his creatures to love him.
What??? Yes He can. Doesn’t mean He will, but He most certainly can. If He is incapable of doing something, then you are denying his omnipotence.

Your argument makes no sense.
 
What??? Yes He can. Doesn’t mean He will, but He most certainly can. If He is incapable of doing something, then you are denying his omnipotence.

Your argument makes no sense.
My argument makes perfect sense of God’s nature which is love.

It contradicts God’s nature to force anyone to love him.

If someone forced you to do something or removed your freedom this would clearly be against your dignity as a person. Isn’t that obvious to you?
 
Why would He do such a thing, when it all could have been avoided, since God is capable of creating non-evildoing freedom? That’s all I ask.
How could God both honor our free will, and stop us from doing evil? If God had done this, our “free will” would be an illusion. We would have the free will to… do exactly what He allows us and nothing that He doesn’t allow.
 
I don’t want this free will. I didn’t choose to have free will in the first place, so is it really free? It’s more like God is forcing us to choose between good and evil so that we can appreciate His glory all the more… Which feels quite vain to me. This is an issue I’ve always had. We exist to glorify Him and for some reason, this rubs me the wrong way.

Why must we suffer for something we did not choose, and in my case, did not ever want?
Yes, it is still free. If you never had free will, you couldn’t decide that you would like to have it unless God made you decide. Your “decision” to have free will, wouldn’t in itself have been a free decision.

Imagine that God created the universe, and he took free will out of the equation. He creates me, and I can’t even think freely. I can’t even think that I might want to have the freedom to make choices for myself. I didn’t choose this.

With free will, you can choose to accept or reject God. You aren’t forced to do anything, though you are encouraged. If we were total slaves to God’s will, we wouldn’t be able to make that choice. Our love and what we do wouldn’t be sincere because it’s being forced on us.

God gave us free will because it is wrong, or imperfect, to force someone to cooperate with you.
 
How could God both honor our free will, and stop us from doing evil? If God had done this, our “free will” would be an illusion. We would have the free will to… do exactly what He allows us and nothing that He doesn’t allow.
I am often tempted to perceive free will as either a curse or an illusion: it is something that I bring up fairly often in confession. Perhaps God would seem kinder to me if free will were indeed an illusion… 🤷
 
I am often tempted to perceive free will as either a curse or an illusion: it is something that I bring up fairly often in confession. Perhaps God would seem kinder to me if free will were indeed an illusion… 🤷
How so?
 
My argument makes perfect sense of God’s nature which is love.

It contradicts God’s nature to force anyone to love him.

If someone forced you to do something or removed your freedom this would clearly be against your dignity as a person. Isn’t that obvious to you?
Listen, you can talk about God’s love all you want but his nature has nothing to do with his abilities. He can do anything. Isn’t that obvious to you?

I’m not talking about what’s in His nature, you’re the only one talking about that. You’re arguing with a figment of your imagination if you think that’s the discussion we’ve been having.
 
Listen, you can talk about God’s love all you want but his nature has nothing to do with his abilities.
God’s nature has got everything to do with his abilities!! God does what his nature is. His will is identical with his nature. God is goodness. God is Love. Therefore God cannot do anything that will violate his nature including forcing people to love him.

The idea of God forcing you to love him might seem like a good thing to you but its not. In fact that would be the very definition of vanity and slavery.
 
free will because it is wrong, or imperfect, to force someone to cooperate with you.
We are punished for not cooperating with God, though (Read: Hell) so how is that not wrong/imperfect? It seems like a manipulative way of getting someone to do as you wish under the guise of “free will” to do otherwise.
 
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