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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Why?
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Shibboleth
Guest
Because yellow and blue make green whether we want it too or not. But you cannot make green without yellow or blue.
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Why is it impossible to HAVE faith without LIVING it? I’m not getting the color analogy.
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II_Paradox_II
Guest
I think perhaps my words were a little too strident on this point. In a normative sense, what I said would apply. However, I would acknowledge the theoretical possibility that someone might not have the actual opportunity to express their regenerate heart in certain circumstances.
Even here, though, the fact still holds that God’s work in their heart still has an effect, even if that effect never has a chance to be witnessed by anyone (such as someone repenting and putting their faith in Christ 2 seconds before being obliterated by a nuclear bomb). I think we are on the same page here, you are just describing the potential exceptions while I was describing the rule.
ken
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Andyman1517
Guest
If one doesn’t “live the faith” then they simply never had the faith.
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
How can you be sure?
In Christ,
Nancy
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p90
Guest
1 John 2:19.
~Matt
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
p90 said:
This verse doesn’t talking about the impossibility of having faith without living it. How does your faith tradition interpret this verse? Does your faith tradition also use this verse to prove “once saved always saved”?
In Christ,
Nancy
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p90
Guest
It was raised to defend the following, which is slightly different than what you’ve just written:
No, at least not that I am aware of.
~Matt
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
It seems the same thing to me. Either way it’s worded you seem to be saying that if one isn’t living his faith then he never had faith to begin with. Isn’t that the same as saying that it’s impossible for one to have faith and not live it? Where are we crossing wires?
In Christ,
Nancy
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chrisg93
Guest
Saving Faith is a Protestant error that has destroyed millions of lives. Faith, by itself, will not get you into heaven. Faith can be useless and will send you to hell if it does not work thru love. Love is the greatest and Faith without love is a clanging noise and dooms a person to hell.
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
It seems to me that faith which is not working through love is nothing more than mental assent. What do you think?
In Christ,
Nancy
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p90
Guest
The small difference I have in mind is that I was viewing Andyman1517’s statement as something that might be determined after a long period of time of supposed faith versus how you seem to have interpreted his words–as referring to any termporary lapse in Godly living. (i.e. depends on how one interprets the phrase “live the faith.”)
My opinion on the subject is that people can have temporary lapses in Godly living (e.g. it seems that the Galatians who were tricked into believing a false Gospel were still justified) while still having faith and being justified. However, those who never had faith to begin with will later deny Christ and continue to stay away from Him.
Now, I don’t want this to go into a discussion of whether or not one can lose their salvation if you don’t, so if you would rather stay true to the original topic, I will be happy to comply. Concerning that, I voted no on the poll and largely agree with what II Paradox II has said on the subject.
Sorry this is so long,
~Matt
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francisca
Guest
Is HAVING faith enough ?
Of course.
If you insist on “faith and grace”, then the question is
Isn’t Grace has been granted to you when Jesus died on the cross???
Even if you think God bestows Grace to each person differently, would you say that “one can earn grace” ?
If not then what to say?
Isn’t our FAITH the only thing lack of us that God is still waiting for us until now?
Jesus said many times in the Gospel to those people received healing and miracle from Him : “YOUR FAITH has saved you”.
If you insist on “good works” then
Isn’t good works THE FRUIT OF FAITH? For if you do something without faith, it’s ain’t good works!
Please refer to Hebrews 11 below : isn’t it proven that all the good people in the bible did their GOOD WORKS by/through Faith???
Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken up …
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned by God …
Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called, …
Hebrews 11:9
By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, …
Hebrews 11:11
By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive…
Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, …
Hebrews 11:20
By faith Isaac …
Hebrews 11:21
By faith Jacob, …
Hebrews 11:22
By faith Joseph, …
Hebrews 11:23
By faith Moses, …
Hebrews 11:24
By faith Moses, …
Hebrews 11:27
By faith he left Egypt, …
Hebrews 11:28
By faith he kept the Passover …
Hebrews 11:29
By faith they passed through the Red Sea …
Hebrews 11:30
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down …
Hebrews 11:31
By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish…
Hebrews 11:32
DO I NEED TO SAY MORE ? There is not enough time to speak of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephtah, David as well as Samuel and the prophets.
Hebrews 11:33
who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,…
Other verses :
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from works of the Law.
1 Corinthians 2:5
so that your faith would NOT rest on the WISDOM OF MEN, BUT on the POWER OF GOD.
Romans 14:23
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and WHATEVER IS NOT FROM FAITH IS SIN.
Galatians 3:2
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? How can you be such fools : you begin with The Spirit and end up with the flesh! So you have experienced al this in vain! Would that it were not so! Did God give you the Spirit and wrok miracles among you, because of the observance of the Law or you believed in his message? Remember Abraham…
Galatians 3:8
The Scripture foresaw that by the way of FAITH, God would give true righteousness.
Galatians 3:10
but those who rely on the practice of the Law are UNDER A CURSE, for it is written : Cursed is everyone who does not always fulfill everything written in the Law.
Of course.
If you insist on “faith and grace”, then the question is
Isn’t Grace has been granted to you when Jesus died on the cross???
Even if you think God bestows Grace to each person differently, would you say that “one can earn grace” ?
If not then what to say?
Isn’t our FAITH the only thing lack of us that God is still waiting for us until now?
Jesus said many times in the Gospel to those people received healing and miracle from Him : “YOUR FAITH has saved you”.
If you insist on “good works” then
Isn’t good works THE FRUIT OF FAITH? For if you do something without faith, it’s ain’t good works!
Please refer to Hebrews 11 below : isn’t it proven that all the good people in the bible did their GOOD WORKS by/through Faith???
Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken up …
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned by God …
Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called, …
Hebrews 11:9
By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, …
Hebrews 11:11
By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive…
Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, …
Hebrews 11:20
By faith Isaac …
Hebrews 11:21
By faith Jacob, …
Hebrews 11:22
By faith Joseph, …
Hebrews 11:23
By faith Moses, …
Hebrews 11:24
By faith Moses, …
Hebrews 11:27
By faith he left Egypt, …
Hebrews 11:28
By faith he kept the Passover …
Hebrews 11:29
By faith they passed through the Red Sea …
Hebrews 11:30
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down …
Hebrews 11:31
By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish…
Hebrews 11:32
DO I NEED TO SAY MORE ? There is not enough time to speak of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephtah, David as well as Samuel and the prophets.
Hebrews 11:33
who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,…
Other verses :
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from works of the Law.
1 Corinthians 2:5
so that your faith would NOT rest on the WISDOM OF MEN, BUT on the POWER OF GOD.
Romans 14:23
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and WHATEVER IS NOT FROM FAITH IS SIN.
Galatians 3:2
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? How can you be such fools : you begin with The Spirit and end up with the flesh! So you have experienced al this in vain! Would that it were not so! Did God give you the Spirit and wrok miracles among you, because of the observance of the Law or you believed in his message? Remember Abraham…
Galatians 3:8
The Scripture foresaw that by the way of FAITH, God would give true righteousness.
Galatians 3:10
but those who rely on the practice of the Law are UNDER A CURSE, for it is written : Cursed is everyone who does not always fulfill everything written in the Law.
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Cat
Guest
I converted to Catholicism April 10, 2004, after over 40 years of evangelical Protestantism.
I think that a lot of non-Christians (non-believers in Christ) do the same good works that Christians do. When a coworker’s husband got cancer, the person who rallied all of us and took up a collection and delivered it to the family, etc. is a blatant atheist.
I agree that the “good works” of saving faith are Christ working through us, His Grace inside us, not just our nice personalities doing the works.
This is where I think a lot of Christians go wrong. Even if they DIDN’T know Christ, they would still do the same good works because they are “good people” who have been raised well and have personal discipline.
But Christ should be producing the good works in us. I think He does this as we partake of the Sacraments, especially Eucharist. It takes faith to believe in and participate in the Sacraments, faith that gets you off your butt and over to the Church.
This is where the Christian is different than the “good person.” The good person does the works because they are a human being, and God gets no credit for their goodness, even though He is the Creator of all people.
But the Christian honors Jesus, and recognizes that He is the Author of any good thing in us.
I also think that evangelical Christians confuse “the works of the Law” and “good works” when they insist that “works aren’t required for salvation.” The “works of the Law” was a Jewish system of obeying the written Laws and animal sacrifice for atonement of sin. This system was done away when Jesus became the Perfect Sacrifice on the Cross and earned for us forgiveness of sins and relationship with Him.
I think that this insistence that “works aren’t necessary” results in a lot of floundering around the Christian life, wondering what the heck we are supposed to be doing. Evangelicals sometimes seem afraid to do good works, because it might be construed as a lack of faith. In fact, I’ve seen evangelicals live any way they please, assuming that their faith is all they need and that God forgives all their sins the instant they do them. (I’ve also seen Catholics do this.)
I like the fact that in Catholic Christianity, our “goal” on this earth is not to “fulfil the Great Commission,” or to “witness to everyone,” but rather, to become perfect, a saint. In the process of doing this, we do fulfill the Great Comission and witness to everyone.
I think that a lot of non-Christians (non-believers in Christ) do the same good works that Christians do. When a coworker’s husband got cancer, the person who rallied all of us and took up a collection and delivered it to the family, etc. is a blatant atheist.
I agree that the “good works” of saving faith are Christ working through us, His Grace inside us, not just our nice personalities doing the works.
This is where I think a lot of Christians go wrong. Even if they DIDN’T know Christ, they would still do the same good works because they are “good people” who have been raised well and have personal discipline.
But Christ should be producing the good works in us. I think He does this as we partake of the Sacraments, especially Eucharist. It takes faith to believe in and participate in the Sacraments, faith that gets you off your butt and over to the Church.
This is where the Christian is different than the “good person.” The good person does the works because they are a human being, and God gets no credit for their goodness, even though He is the Creator of all people.
But the Christian honors Jesus, and recognizes that He is the Author of any good thing in us.
I also think that evangelical Christians confuse “the works of the Law” and “good works” when they insist that “works aren’t required for salvation.” The “works of the Law” was a Jewish system of obeying the written Laws and animal sacrifice for atonement of sin. This system was done away when Jesus became the Perfect Sacrifice on the Cross and earned for us forgiveness of sins and relationship with Him.
I think that this insistence that “works aren’t necessary” results in a lot of floundering around the Christian life, wondering what the heck we are supposed to be doing. Evangelicals sometimes seem afraid to do good works, because it might be construed as a lack of faith. In fact, I’ve seen evangelicals live any way they please, assuming that their faith is all they need and that God forgives all their sins the instant they do them. (I’ve also seen Catholics do this.)
I like the fact that in Catholic Christianity, our “goal” on this earth is not to “fulfil the Great Commission,” or to “witness to everyone,” but rather, to become perfect, a saint. In the process of doing this, we do fulfill the Great Comission and witness to everyone.
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francisca
Guest
If anyone-- knowing the law-- sins, that very moment he will be under the judgement of the law. If anyone-- not knowing the law-- sins, he will not under the judgement of the law. But both of them will perish with or without law.
This means sin brings death to both catholics and protestants as well as all other people from various religions. The only salvation we have is if we believe in God’s Merciful Plan through Jesus Christ.
But the amazing thing about this teaching is-- according to Appostle Paul and John-- If you believe, then you WILL NOT SIN ANYMORE. This means freedom from slavery of lust, drinking, and smoking, etc too. And I know this as I have experience this as well as from others’ testimonies. Our life is perfected in Jesus literally.
From here then one do his good works… not the other way round. We love because God has loved us first.
Romans 8:3
For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
This verse is literally say that God frees us from sin in the flesh, and that the flesh not responding anymore (try to find the greek version).
See if God frees us, nobody-- man nor satan— can bind us anymore.
Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is NO LONGER I WHO LIVE, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by FAITH in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
As human we have weaknesses in many area. One area we receive healing/ miracle but there are always area where we “fear” the most. This area of “fear” is where we “does not trust God”.
So we come to God as a son/ daughter and ask Him many things in times of need. God who is our Father will always listen to us, because we are His sons/ daughters, this is true only if we believe Him. If this is true, then we can always have confidence that whatever we ask Him, He hears us :
1 John 5: 14-15
And we have this confidence in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in regard to whatever we ask, we know that what we have asked him for is ours.
1 John 5:3 -4
For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are NOT BURDENSOME,
for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world. And the victory that conquers the world is our faith.
May God blesses us all.
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Shibboleth
Guest
II Paradox II:
Yes I agree with what you are trying to say. This conversation is always difficult because the language being used is not exactly synonymous between groups. I was simply referring to the external manifestation of our faith.
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MariaG
Guest
This is not the teaching of Paul, this is the interpretation of a man, I believe it was John Wesley. The last time I heard this teaching, I was in a Nazarene Church. This claim says Sanctification is instantaneous. Catholics do not believe this, sanctification is a process that will only be complete once we reach heaven.
What we are free from is the punishment (Hell) of our sin. It doesn’t mean we should not strive for Holiness. All of God’s people are called to Holiness. But Holiness is a lifelong process not an instantaneous one. Instantaneous Santification is a man made new interpretation of the words of Paul. Not the teachings of Paul.
The Bible also tells us Paul’s teachings are not easily understood. This is a perfect example that Paul’s teachings can bring without a central authority. Santification is a process not an instantaneous event,
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Grace is not at issue here.
ACTS of faith are ALWAYS present.
And conversely “faith without works is dead”. Can’t have one without the other.
ALL accompanied by ACTS of faith. Faith cannot be separated from works, otherwise it is dead.
Works of the law aren’t at issue here.
Wisdom of men is not at issue here.
A direct refernece to ACTS of faith.
Galatians is all about works of the LAW. That’s not what we’re talking about in this thread.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Shibboleth
Guest
The Christian is not saved by KNOWING that he has faith. By grace, God has given him faith in Jesus, and it is through that faith he is saved. For example, Abraham believed God (had faith, not just knew he had faith) and it was credited to him as righteousness (Romans 4:3). Yes, the Christian should bother whether he is doing Christ’s good works, even though he is saved by faith alone. It is God’s will and express command that the Christian should do good works, which the Holy Spirit works in him. Christ’s good works are indicators that the Christian has Christ’s faith and not something else. Christ’s good works will be the products of that faith, and those good works will be the public signs on which Christ will pronounce His public final judgment (Matt. 25).How can you be sure?
In Christ,
Nancy
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