Is HAVING faith enough?

[Catholic4aReasn]

I converted to Catholicism April 10, 2004, after over 40 years of evangelical Protestantism.

Welcome home!!! :clapping:

I agree that the “good works” of saving faith are Christ working through us, His Grace inside us, not just our nice personalities doing the works.

That’s right. I think that the “faith alone” crowd thinks that the Catholic’s “good works” are somehow apart from grace. They are BECAUSE of grace. They are not because of us, ourselves “lest we boast”.

I also think that evangelical Christians confuse “the works of the Law”

Yes, as has been illustrated in this thread. The “works of the law” that Paul refers to and the “works” that James refers to are two completely different things.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

francisca:

But the amazing thing about this teaching is-- according to Appostle Paul and John-- If you believe, then you WILL NOT SIN ANYMORE.

The majority of Christians, Catholics and Protestant alike, disagree with this idea that those who are saved no longer sin. No longer being a slave to sin does not mean that we will no longer sin but rather than sin no longer has a hold on us. We still fail, but our failures no longer condemn us, as they would under the law. Under grace our failures are covered by the blood of the Lamb and need not separate us from God. Personally, I think the teaching that the saved no longer sin is a dangerous one.

Romans 8:3
For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

This verse is literally say that God frees us from sin in the flesh, and that the flesh not responding anymore (try to find the greek version).

See if God frees us, nobody-- man nor satan— can bind us anymore.

Being freed from sin doesn’t mean that we no longer sin, it means that sin no longer has a permanent hold on us. Those under the law were slaves to sin because to break even ONE precept of the law was the break the whole darn thing. People under the law were doomed to failure. But for those of us under grace, one failure doesn’t ruin the whole thing. We can repent and turn back to God.

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is NO LONGER I WHO LIVE, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by FAITH in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Amen! Paul LIVED by faith, he didn’t merely have faith.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

By grace, God has given him faith in Jesus, and it is through that faith he is saved.

True, but this faith cannot merely be a mental assent but must be an ACTIVE faith or, as Paul put it, “only faith working through love (Gal 5:6)”.

For example, Abraham believed God (had faith, not just knew he had faith) and it was credited to him as righteousness (Romans 4:3).

There were always accompanying ACTS of faith.

Yes, the Christian should bother whether he is doing Christ’s good works, even though he is saved by faith alone.

This is in complete contradiction to the very words of scripture in James 2:24: “NOT by faith alone”. We are saved by grace (Eph 2:6,8) through faith and works (James 2), NOT by faith alone (James 2:24).

How is it that one is saved by faith alone if faith alone, without works, is dead (James 2:17), useless (vs20) and incomplete (vs.22)? One is saved by a dead, useless and incomplete faith? Does scripture support such an idea?

1 Cor 13:13 tells us that love is GREATER than faith. How can that be if we are saved by faith alone?

In Mark 10:17-21, when Jesus is asked what one must do to inherit eternal life (be saved) Jesus ONLY mentions behavior (works). No only does Jesus not say “have faith alone”, he doesn’t even mention faith at all. If we are saved by faith alone wouldn’t Jesus be somewhat obligated to at least mention faith when specifically asked what one must do to be saved?

1 Cor 13:2 tells us that if one has all faith to move mountains but does not have love one is nothing. Here the idea of faith alone renders one nothing.

1 Tim 5:8 tells us (remember this is written to Christians…believers…people with faith) that to fail be behave in certain ways makes one WORSE than an unbeliever. Yikes! What could be worse than that?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Shibboleth]

I am going to repost this from another thread.

The central and consistent teaching of Paul that we are justified by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ is nowhere more beautifully summarized than in Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works…” By its very definition “grace” means that human works do not contribute in any way to a person’s salvation or justification, as St. Paul says in Romans 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” Or as the apostle had already said in 3:28, “…a man is justified by faith apart from [Greek: choris] works of law.” Paul said this, of course, in the context of Jewish opinions regarding what was required for salvation. By making circumcision a necessary requirement for one to be saved (See Acts 15:5ff.), the Jews had attacked the Gospel of God’s grace at its very core (see Gal. 5:1-12!).

The faith of which Paul speaks, of course, is a living faith in Jesus Christ that produces, by God’s Spirit, the good works that God wills be done in the Christian’s life. That is why, immediately after his beautiful summary of the Gospel in Ephesians 2:8-9, he continues, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

Of this living faith, Luther so eloquently said: “Oh faith is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, so that it is impossible for it not to be constantly doing what is good. Likewise, faith does not ask if good works are to be done, but before one can ask, faith has already done them and is constantly active” (Formula of Concord, SD, IV, 10-11). This is precisely what the entire book of James is all about. Genuine faith is a faith that shows itself in good works. Or as Luther again put it once, as an apple tree makes fruit and the fruit does not make an apple tree, so works do not make a Christian, but a Christian does good works.

 

[Shibboleth]

Catholic4aReasn:

This is in complete contradiction to the very words of scripture in James 2:24: “NOT by faith alone”. We are saved by grace (Eph 2:6,8) through faith and works (James 2), NOT by faith alone (James 2:24).

Perhaps I was careless in the wording that I laid out.

Of course we are saved by God’s Grace and not due to any meritous behavior on our part. Grace gives us the gifts of “faith’ and “works.” We cannot credit ourselves for having faith in Jesus because that faith comes from God.

If we are Baptized and do not reject God than we will have faith in Jesus and we will also have “good works.” However; all our good works are tainted with sin. “All our righteous acts are like filthy rags,” as Isaiah reminds us. Therefore, they cannot be counted for our salvation. Only the perfect, all-sufficient righteousness that Jesus accomplished for us with His perfect life, will be enough for our salvation. This comes to us by grace, imputed to us through faith, faith being a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9).

Is Faith dead without deeds dead? Sure because if faith is not producing then it must be dead in that we must have rejected God. We have dammed the river so to speak and in the process damned ourselves. Without Good works we do not have faith or it is dead inside of us…

The problem being is that anyone can do good things without faith. In the Kingdom of God’s power, the civil righteousness–the good works of unbelievers–are good only outwardly. These are necessary for the welfare of human society, and God even rewards them with temporal blessings. But these good works of the unbelievers get them nowhere with God in His Kingdom of grace. Even works of civil righteousness will ultimately receive the condemnation of Jesus and will not prevent eternal punishment (Matt.25:41-46).

 

[Shibboleth]

Just so people know some of what I am posting is directly from a Lutheran website and not my own writting. Just to be honest - they have more knowlege in the subject than I do.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

I am going to repost this from another thread.

The central and consistent teaching of Paul that we are justified by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ is nowhere more beautifully summarized than in Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works…”

The Church does not teach that one is saved by faith and works but rather justified by faith and works as is clearly stated in James 2:24.

By its very definition “grace” means that human works do not contribute in any way to a person’s salvation or justification,

That’s in complete contradiction to James 2:24 which specifically states that our works (behavior) do play a part in our justification.

as St. Paul says in Romans 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.”

This a a reference to works of the LAW which is different from the works in James, which is a reference to Christian behavior.

Or as the apostle had already said in 3:28, “…a man is justified by faith apart from [Greek: choris] works of law.” Paul said this, of course, in the context of Jewish opinions regarding what was required for salvation. By making circumcision a necessary requirement for one to be saved (See Acts 15:5ff.), the Jews had attacked the Gospel of God’s grace at its very core (see Gal. 5:1-12!).

Galatians is also all about works of the LAW, which is not the same as the “works” talked about by James.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

Of course we are saved by God’s Grace and not due to any meritous behavior on our part. Grace gives us the gifts of “faith’ and “works.”

Right. And the two together, not one or the other alone, are necessary for justification.

If we are Baptized and do not reject God than we will have faith in Jesus and we will also have “good works.” However; all our good works are tainted with sin. “All our righteous acts are like filthy rags,” as Isaiah reminds us. Therefore, they cannot be counted for our salvation.

That’s right, they are counted for our justification (James 2:24) not our salvation.

Only the perfect, all-sufficient righteousness that Jesus accomplished for us with His perfect life, will be enough for our salvation.

No, it is not sufficient. The missing ingredient is our response to his grace. Jesus will not force salvation upon anyone.

This comes to us by grace, imputed to us through faith, faith being a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9).

In this passage the gift being referred to grace, although faith, along with works, can also be seen as gifts.

Without Good works we do not have faith or it is dead inside of us…

Scripture does not say that without works we have NO faith but rather DEAD faith. That is not the same thing as you have implied. James doesn’t say that without works we have NO faith, but rather the faith that we DO have is dead (vs 17, 26), useless (vs 20) and incomplete (vs 22).

The problem being is that anyone can do good things without faith. In the Kingdom of God’s power, the civil righteousness–the good works of unbelievers–are good only outwardly… But these good works of the unbelievers get them nowhere with God in His Kingdom of grace…

That’s right. Without faith to go along with their works they cannot be justified. Likewise, one with faith who does not also have works cannot be justified because his faith would be dead, useless, and incomplete.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Shibboleth]

Catholic4aReasn:

That’s in complete contradiction to James 2:24 which specifically states that our works (behavior) do play a part in our justification.

The problem arises that in James the word “faith” is used differently. In James “faith” is refered to more of as a knowlege of doctrines. We know this for many reasons but the best measure is that it refers to Satan having a form of 'Faith." Paul would never assert such a thing becuase Satan does not have God’s Grace and does not recieve the gifts of faith and works.

From the Joint Doctrine of Justification:

For Lutherans the concept of grace alone underscores the fact that God justifies us not on the basis of anything we have done or will do, but God’s declaring and making us righteous is pure gift. God, in divine freedom, chooses to give us the forgiveness of sins. Likewise, Lutherans hold that ‘faith alone’ means that human beings contribute nothing to their coming to faith and in no way can they be said to cooperate with God’s grace while still in an unregenerate state. While Lutherans believe it is necessary that the unregenerate sinner not resist the work of the Holy Spirit in the work of conversion, they would not traditionally describe this absence of resistance as ‘cooperation’. It is alone through faith, understood as trust in Jesus Christ, that we receive the forgiveness of sins. And this faith, too, is held to be a gift of God, made possible only by the grace of God (Ephesians 2:8,9). This faith, however, is never alone, for it is a faith working in love (Galatians 5:6) and a faith that necessarily produces good works (James 2:24-26).

Roman Catholics have traditionally held, as stated at the Council of Trent, that we are not justified by anything we do, but only by God’s grace. Trent affirmed the role of the human person in preparing for justification and in accepting the grace offered and living out what is given in that grace. Yet the Council insisted that all of this is grace and none of it happens except through grace. Therefore Roman Catholics, too, affirm that justification is by grace alone. With regard to faith, Roman Catholics view faith as one of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and love. When faith is understood merely as intellectual assent, it can exist without love and can coexist with sinful rejection of God. Clearly, however, faith understood in this sense is not enough for justification. Saving faith, which is always a gift of God, must involve love and hope. When faith is understood as faith informed by love and involving hope, then Roman Catholics, too, can affirm the principle of faith alone.
Lutherans and Roman Catholics agree that apart from God’s grace there is no justification of the sinner. We confess together that the sinner is justified on the basis of God’s grace alone through faith in the saving act of God in Jesus Christ. The faith through which the grace of God works justification in the sinner can never be a mere intellectual assent. Justifying faith always includes trust in God’s promise and is informed by love of God.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:
The problem arises that in James the word “faith” is used differently. In James “faith” is refered to more of as a knowlege of doctrines.

QUOTE]

James was saying that we are justified by a knowledge of doctrines and works? Abraham’s knowledge of doctrines was completed by offering his son? That doesn’t seem to make sense.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Shibboleth]

Catholic4aReasn:

The problem arises that in James the word “faith” is used differently. In James “faith” is refered to more of as a knowlege of doctrines.

QUOTE]

James was saying that we are justified by a knowledge of doctrines and works? Abraham’s knowledge of doctrines was completed by offering his son? That doesn’t seem to make sense.

In Christ,
Nancy

Perhaps I should have said an intellectual assent.

I will get to this but if you see in The Joint Doctrine of Justification - if Faith does not mean a intellectual assent then Catholics are said to be Sola Fida also. Lutheran’s do not believe that “Faith” through Grace is simply a intellectual assent.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

Perhaps I should have said an intellectual assent.

I will get to this but if you see in The Joint Doctrine of Justification - if Faith does not mean a intellectual assent then Catholics are said to be Sola Fida also. Lutheran’s do not believe that “Faith” through Grace is simply a intellectual assent.

That’s just it. Faith without works. or an inactive faith, is nothing more than mental assent.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Shibboleth]

Catholic4aReasn:

That’s just it. Faith without works. or an inactive faith, is nothing more than mental assent.

In Christ,
Nancy

Yes… we do not disagree on this.

There’s a little phrase we use for it:

“Faith alone saves; but the faith that saves is never alone - it is always
accompanied by good works.”

The Lutheran confessions chief warning is that we do not rest our
confidence, our trust, in our works, but solely in God’s promised mercy because of Christ.

But they do not neglect to add: the way to test out whether or not that is real in your life is whether or not there are works with it. “Faith without works is dead” is a passage they take seriously.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

"Faith alone saves; but the faith that saves is never alone

.

Then it’s not “faith alone”. Where am I misunderstanding you?

Maybe with Catholics and Lutherans it mostly boils down to symantics??

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Shibboleth]

Catholic4aReasn:

Then it’s not “faith alone”. Where am I misunderstanding you?

Maybe with Catholics and Lutherans it mostly boils down to symantics??

In Christ,
Nancy

Kind of… but their are differences. Ignoring the differences in language is the reason that the Joint Doctrine of Justification could be signed.

To a Lutheran it is Faith Alone becuase as I said in the beggining the Tree bears the fruit the fruit does not bear the tree.

 

[Shibboleth]

Sorry to continue regressing but this is why I used the example of the colors.

Yellow and blue make green whether we want it to or not; however, you cannot have green without yellow and blue.

With all things in place works will come whether we want them to or not. They are the byproduct of that which it is necessary. With faith works will come.

“I was dragged kicking and screaming into the kingdom of God, eyes darting left and right for some means of escape.” C.S. Lewis

 

[steveroz]

II Paradox II:

I already answered that in my post above. The are multiple senses of the term “necessity”. It not necessary as a ground of justification, but it is necessarily linked to that justification such that one cannot exist without the other.

ken

And THAT’S the reason for separating the Body of Christ and starting your own church? Man, I sure don’t get it…

 

[steveroz]

Catholic4aReasn:

Then it’s not “faith alone”. Where am I misunderstanding you?

Maybe with Catholics and Lutherans it mostly boils down to symantics??

You’re dead on Nancy. I’m a cradle Catholic who spent 20 years as a Lutheran and “re-verted” earlier this year. I beat on this issue every which way in a futile attempt to prove to my wife and myself that we should stay Lutheran. The more I dug into the Catechism looking for the errors, the more beauty and truth I found and I finally relented.

Either you’re saved by “Faith working in love” (Catholic) or you’re saved by a “saving faith” alone which must have works to prove its authenticity. It’s a distinction without a difference. Come home, Shibboleth!

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

Sorry to continue regressing but this is why I used the example of the colors.

Yellow and blue make green whether we want it to or not; however, you cannot have green without yellow and blue.

With all things in place works will come whether we want them to or not. They are the byproduct of that which it is necessary. With faith works will come.

Perhaps the desire will come, but actually doing them is still a choice. It’s a matter of either cooperating with the grace that you are given or not.

To say that we will do good works (behave as a Christian) whether we want to or not means that we no longer have free will. Where do you believe scripture supports this idea?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[mayra_hart]

i think faith is good but also been good to other is as important. helping others an treating people with respect is as important.