Is HAVING faith enough?

[Shibboleth]

In this argument some individuals understand the Protestant point of view some people do not.

Catholics get horribly perturbed because they constantly get confronted with the notion that they are worshiping Saints and Mary. Of course this is not true - you honor them but do not worship them - you acknowledge their importance but you do not deify them.

Lutherans such as myself get increasingly perturbed at individuals thinking that we do not acknowledge good works. We do we just do not elevate them to the level of faith.

Do we believe that “Faith without works is dead.”? Yes… and we take it very seriously. When we are bestowed with God’s Grace we are given the gift of ‘Faith’ in Jesus. That faith manifests itself externally in “good works.” IF one rejects God then ‘good works’ will no longer be manifested due to the loss of Faith. Faith is dead because it lived in us and now it does not. God continuously holds his gifts before us even after we have rejected him. Once we cease to reject God he bestows them back upon us… We can never take the Gift’s because they are not ours for the taking.

 

[Shibboleth]

Catholic4aReasn:

I respectfully disagree. I think that we are called to forgive EVEN IF WE DON’T WANT TO. Therein lies the challenge for the Christian. Saying that if one is truly a Christian one will just naturally desire to forgive others is simply untrue. That makes feelings the gauge of the authenticity of faith and one’s relationship with the Lord. That’s a dangerous teaching indeed and certainly nothing that is supported in scripture. James makes it clear that it’s our BEHAVIOR that indicates our faith, not our feelings.

We’ve gotten off topic again.

In Christ,
Nancy

I said nothing about feelings, I am perhaps one of the more analytical minds on this planet. Yes one will have the desire to forgive others but because of our nature we will also have the desire to sin. This desire to sin will make it difficult for us to forgive others. Lutheran’s pray for the assistance of God and the Holy Spirit for guidance, but we do not consider these acts a means of “salvation.”

Why? Because without faith in God and Jesus these acts would be empty coffers - we would be asking for something that we did not truly believe in in the first place. The same could be said about asking for Forgiveness - if you do not believe God will truly forgive you then why are you asking - that is not Faith.

Works are important but Faith is key.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

francisca:

Which ones of the things that we do are “good works” ?

Don’t we do works all the time everyday ?

We do this, we do that…

But which ones are REALLY “the good works” ?

There aren’t particular things we do that count as “good works” and others that do not. As I said in another post the “works” of James is simply Christian behavior…behaving in a Christ-like manner. I think that some Protestants mistakenly think that Catholics are referring to particular, individual works.

We say this in our hearts as we do all the things that we do : “Let Thy will be done…” And this shall not be merely “lip service”. If you gamble uncontrollably, then you’d better stop NOW. But it’s nothing easy.

Another poster here disagrees with you. If you have faith, she claimed, you simply WILL stop.

There should be something greater than our reasonings and understanding and muscle-capabilities to do these “good works” we are talking about. And this “something greater” is called OUR FAITH (or rather GOD’S GRACE).

That’s right.

It is totally wrong when one talking about “good works” yet left out with a question “Is having FAITH enough?”. Because FAITH is the freely given GRACE that one say “Let Thy Will be done (in the things that I do everyday)”.

I don’t understand what “left out with a question” means.

Because if one has Faith (or rather that God has bestowed GRACE on him), it will show in the things that he does.

As you said, it’s not that easy. The potential is there because the grace is there, but one must cooperate with God’s grace. Grace does not override free will. Our behavior is still a choice and it’s still under our control. As we grow in Christ our wills are more closely formed to his, but are never completely like his.

And if he say “I have faith” but it does not show, then maybe his faith is only a seed that has not grown-up yet, or maybe he has no faith at all. In all cases, without FAITH (or rather God’s GRACE), there shall never be any “good works” whatsoever. Because man do many things everyday.

That’s what James’ “works” are. The Christian behavior that we choose every day.

This discussion about “works” is really semantic!

I disagree. Either our behavior matters or it doesn’t. That’s pretty important.

So if good works is also God’s Grace. And God’s Grace is nothing that we can “earn”, then what do we do?

It has nothing at all to do with earning anything. That isn’t the issue here. One doesn’t earn salvation by works anymore than one earns salvation by faith. The question is, is proper Christian behavior (works) necessary for salvation? Some here say that if you have faith you will just naturally display Christ-like behavior. James seems to think otherwise by making a point that one can have faith and still choose NOT to behavior in a Christ-like manner therebye making his faith dead, usless, and incomplete.

Just believe then that GRACE has been bestowed on us 2000 years ago that Jesus died for us on the cross to take away our sins.

I respectfully disagree. Grace was made available to everyone 2000 years ago but since I did not exist it could not have been bestowed upon me personally. Grace was first bestowed upon me personally 39 years ago when I was baptised and is bestowed upon me every time I receive the Eucharist. But that’s all for another thread.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[MariaG]

originally posted by Shibboleth

Lutherans such as myself get increasingly perturbed at individuals thinking that we do not acknowledge good works. We do we just do not elevate them to the level of faith.

I was going to say I understood finally what you mean. But since I am unable to put what you said in my own words, I think I am close but not quite there. I know that Lutherans acknowledge good works. Could you expand slightly more on "we just do not elevate them to the level of faith.

Also, I think there is some talking around each other going on. The Lutheran view is different from the Baptist view when it comes to this point. (I think?) I think an identification of denomination would help in this discussion.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[jimmy]

Shibboleth:

Just to reiterate this point because I hear it consistently. The ‘faith’ in which Protestants refer to is not the same ‘faith’ that is being mentioned here. Both Catholics and Protestants agree that there are two types of ‘faith’ and ‘works.’

In this instance faith is little more than knowledge because Satan does not have God’s Grace therefore he cannot be bestowed with the gift of ‘true faith’ in Jesus. Catholics believe this also…

Satan can also do good works but they are the works of an unbeliever. These are not equivalent to the Good Works in question. Unbelievers do good works all the time, but it does not mean that they have faith.

Can you tell me what these two types of Faith are? And can you give me a credible Catholic source that backs up your statement that the Catholic church beleives there are two types of faith?

As James says in this same passage, faith without works is dead. The way he is talking about faith is as if there is one type of faith. And this faith with out putting it into action is nothing.

Satan does no good works, if he did, he would be proclaiming God because all good comes from God. Any good that Satan does is in the hope of the death of human souls. It is therefore not a good work.

Both faith and works come from the grace of God. The unbelievers may have been given Gods grace that has given them the will to do good.

 

[Shibboleth]

jimmy:

Can you tell me what these two types of Faith are? And can you give me a credible Catholic source that backs up your statement that the Catholic church beleives there are two types of faith?

As James says in this same passage, faith without works is dead. The way he is talking about faith is as if there is one type of faith. And this faith with out putting it into action is nothing.

Satan does no good works, if he did, he would be proclaiming God because all good comes from God. Any good that Satan does is in the hope of the death of human souls. It is therefore not a good work.

Both faith and works come from the grace of God. The unbelievers may have been given Gods grace that has given them the will to do good.

I will answer this question if you answer mine first.

Can someone without God’s Grace have the gifts of Good Works and Faith?

How does one go about getting the gift of God’s Grace?

Do people that do not have God’s Grace do good things?

If someone cannot have the gifts of faith and works how can someone outside of God’s grace have true faith and good works?

 

[Philthy]

Shibboleth

"Satan can also do good works but they are the works of an unbeliever. These are not equivalent to the Good Works in question. Unbelievers do good works all the time, but it does not mean that they have faith.

"IF one rejects God then ‘good works’ will no longer be manifested due to the loss of Faith."

Philthy

---

These two statements you made in consecutive posts seem inconsistent. Would you please try to articulate just exactly what you’re talking about? What exactly is the faith that you have that is separable from works in this life? All I keep getting from Catholics is that you can’t separate living (as opposed to dead) faith from works and everyone else (yourself included) saying that the works flow from a faith entity that somehow also exists separately from the works, with the caveat that IF good works don’t flow from the faith then it is in fact NOT true faith. IF I understand this correctly - and Im asking for your (name removed by moderator)ut - this is an insignificant difference. Hardly worth arguing over - no?

---

---

 

[jimmy]

Shibboleth:

I will answer this question if you answer mine first.

Can someone without God’s Grace have the gifts of Good Works and Faith?

How does one go about getting the gift of God’s Grace?

Do people that do not have God’s Grace do good things?

If someone cannot have the gifts of faith and works how can someone outside of God’s grace have true faith and good works?

You can do something that is good but you also have to know what the motive or the reasons for the good work are.

You can not have true faith and good works outside of Gods grace.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

Can someone without God’s Grace have the gifts of Good Works and Faith?

No.

How does one go about getting the gift of God’s Grace?

Initially in baptism , although the very act of coming forward for baptism is a response to God’s grace. See? It’s all about grace…through and through. After baptism we can receive God’s grace over and over again in the sacraments, being continually strengthened and changed to be more and more like our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!!

Do people that do not have God’s Grace do good things?

Sure.

If someone cannot have the gifts of faith and works how can someone outside of God’s grace have true faith and good works

He can’t.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[francisca]

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church

1. The Common Understanding of Justification

15.In faith WE TOGETHER HOLD THE CONVICTION that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.

1. Explicating the Common Understanding of Justification
   4.1 Human Powerlessness and Sin in Relation to Justification
2. When Catholics say that persons “cooperate” in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself AN EFFECT of grace, NOT as an action arising from innate human abilities.

21.According to Lutheran teaching, human beings are incapable of cooperating in their salvation, because as sinners they actively oppose God …

[end of quote]

All of these definitions are semantic. It only mean one thing : one receive Justification only by God’s Actions and NOT by man’s works whatsoever.

Catholics call “salvation” by “Grace through Faith” while Lutherans call it “by Faith alone”. Both refers to the same thing : GOD’s Actions.

Even the teachings of church fathers are agree with this (both Pelagius and St. Augustine, etc), and even Trent Council can’t deny this either.

Justification (catholic version) = God’s grace through faith = God’s Actions (not our merit at all).
Justification (Luthernan version)= Faith alone = God’s Actions as well.

About Apostle James’s letter:

James wrote “Faith without works is dead”. It is true in the sense that “our works” shows our faith, so nobody can have “lip service” of “having faith”. If one has faith, surely it will slowly show up in his works. Because we all work out many things everyday, don’t we? Which ones of our works are “good works” ? Works of Faith will automatically show up provided one have faith.

May God bless us all.

 

[mtr01]

Just an observation here, but one of the things I have found suspect about the doctrine of justification by faith alone is that it is based solely on the Pauline letters, particularly Romans. (I would argue that it is a misreading of those letters…i.e. confusing works of the law (e.g., circumcision, not eaiting ritually unclean food) with daily good works (living the faith as Nancy puts it).

One nevers hears this arguement based on other scriptures, particularly the Gospels (which contain Christ’s actual teachings).

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

francisca:

James wrote “Faith without works is dead”. It is true in the sense that “our works” shows our faith,
They do much more than show our faith francisca, they COMPLETE it (James 2:22). Without them the faith that we have is dead and useless (vs17, 20, 26)…

If one has faith, surely it will slowly show up in his works.

They aren’t going to just “show up”. Our behavior is a choice that we make, not something that just “shows up” one day without our knowing it. As we grow in Christ and allow him to form us our wills become more perfectly aligned with his. We CHOOSE to behave in a Christ-like manner. It may come as naturally as breathing for some people, but for others it’s really, really hard. I once saw someone in a chatroom tell someone there was something wrong with his faith because he didn’t feel a certain way. Sometimes living our faith means going AGAINST our own wills, doing exactly what we DON’T want to do just because it’s GOD’S will.

I think it’s a really damaging and dangerous thing to tell people that if you have faith such-and-such will just naturally happen. Maybe it will, but if it doesn’t, then what? Well then the opposite must be true, of course. If I don’t feel like she said I should/would feel then there’s something wrong. It’s not about feelings. It’s about walking the walk and not just talking the talk.
Because we all work out many things everyday, don’t we? Which ones of our works are “good works” ?

That question was answered for you in post #82.

Works of Faith will automatically show up provided one have faith.

Not for everyone francisca. Many people of great faith continue to struggle. Behavior is a choice. Faith does not override free will.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

mtr01:

Just an observation here, but one of the things I have found suspect about the doctrine of justification by faith alone is that it is based solely on the Pauline letters, particularly Romans. (I would argue that it is a misreading of those letters…i.e. confusing works of the law (e.g., circumcision, not eaiting ritually unclean food) with daily good works (living the faith as Nancy puts it).

This is exactly correct. This can be seen in the many, many times that those who believe in “faith alone” cite Romans and Galatians which are specifically about works of the LAW. They have nothing to do with the works that James was talking about; the works that complete our faith. I think they just see the word “works” and run with it.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[francisca]

Catholic4aReasn:

It may come as naturally as breathing for some people, but for others it’s really, really hard.

I did not say that it would be easy. Especially because it’s difficult that we must walk together with Jesus. Instead of going back and forth the confession room, one must confess their faith that God is the one to save them. I am not against sacrament of penance. Now don’t get me wrong again.

I know there are many catholics live in dichotomy of “good works” and “bad habits” they pile up until they give up and become apathetic in their faith.

This teaching about works is a misunderstanding of the past. Now the Church has come to an agreement with Lutherans that Justification is only God’s action.

Please read carefully the document in the vatican website I gave in my last posting.

I once saw someone in a chatroom tell someone there was something wrong with his faith because he didn’t feel a certain way. Sometimes living our faith means going AGAINST our own wills, doing exactly what we DON’T want to do just because it’s GOD’S will.

I’m not talking about feeling. I’m talking about believing and trusting God who is FAITHFUL and rich in Mercy and in all blessings. God who save sinners-- those who do not know how to save themselves-- the wretched ones-- who does not have any “good works” to offer God. This is what I am talking about.

I think it’s a really damaging and dangerous thing to tell people that if you have faith such-and-such will just naturally happen.

It will not “naturally” happen actually. Rather, it will “supernaturally” happen, provided you believe.

Maybe it will, but if it doesn’t, then what? Well then the opposite must be true, of course. If I don’t feel like she said I should/would feel then there’s something wrong. It’s not about feelings. It’s about walking the walk and not just talking the talk.

I know it is hard to believe. God’s goodness is something beyond our understanding. So let go and let God. That is the only way.

And no, it is not about feeling. I am NOT talking about feeling. I am talking about walking THE WAY of FAITH apart from works of the law or any other works that we do.

Matthew 21:21
And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have FAITH and DO NOT DOUBT, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ IT WILL HAPPEN.

This is not my teaching but Jesus’s. I simply hold it in my heart, and to you all I witness that this teaching is true. I once had a bad habit that I tried to get rid for many years. And It went away because God freed me. Not that I freed myself with my effort. I do not even have anymore desire in doing those things I once could not let go. It’s just happened that It simply stopped !

Go and read your bible and do not forget to praise Him in your prayers and songs. God is good!

God bless.

 

[francisca]

Catholic4aReasn:

Originally Posted by mtr01

Just an observation here, but one of the things I have found suspect about the doctrine of justification by faith alone is that it is based solely on the Pauline letters, particularly Romans. (I would argue that it is a misreading of those letters…i.e. confusing works of the law (e.g., circumcision, not eaiting ritually unclean food) with daily good works (living the faith as Nancy puts it).

This is exactly the dichotomy I was talking about :

If we separate “works of the law” and “works in our daily life”, then
our life becomes a dichotomy between “good works” and “daily activity”…

because

Those “ten commandments” talks about our conduct in daily life.

 

[MariaG]

I am truly confused Fracisca. The Catholic Church has ALWAYS held that justification is through God Alone. The Agreement that was made was to clarify (at least from the Catholic point of view) the Lutheran position that says “Faith alone”. Catholics in no way changed their understanding of justification.

Council of Trent:
Canon I - If any one sith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the gtrace of God through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

I am truly happy you believe that the Catholic Church has agreed to terminology that you can accept as not seeing we “earn” our way to heaven through good works. But the Catholic Church has never taught that we can earn our way to heaven through our own merit. Either Luther never understood this as a Catholic, or Luther did not mean Faith alone the way it is now understood by Lutherans, because the Catholic Church has not changed its meaning in any way.

Frankly, I am constantly trying not to be offended by your assumptions and branding of Catholics with such a broad brush.

I know there are many catholics live in dichotomy of “good works” and “bad habits” they pile up until they give up and become apathetic in their faith.

Really, Catholic are particularly succeptible to this? Just like Catholics think they have to earn their way to heaven until Lutherans came along and “straightened them out”?

Catholics, at least here on this board, know that Christ died for us, know that it is only through His grace that we get to heaven and know that the “good works” in our life are only through God’s Grace and nothing we take credit for. This has always been the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Your constant and frequent assumptions about Catholics is appalling. So far here and elsewhere, you have told Catholics the Truth: Jesus died for our sins. We know and are eternally grateful. We don’t earn our way to heaven. We know it is through God’s Grace. And although you say you are not against the Sacrement of Reconciliation, you say:

I did not say that it would be easy. Especially because it’s difficult that we must walk together with Jesus. Instead of going back and forth the confession room, one must confess their faith that God is the one to save them. I am not against sacrament of penance. Now don’t get me wrong again.

Our walk to the confessional as you call it is because we have separated ourselves from Christ, and if you want to walk together with Jesus you first have to confess your sins, just as Christ directed us to (Jn 20:23). As I said before. Santification is a process. Your understanding of confession is flawed if you compare it to “walking back and forth to the confession room”.

I do understand that you may meet Catholics you do not live the faith. Catholics who have no heart understanding of Christ. But. please, stop treating us on this board as if we do not have heart and head knowledge of our Lord. You are obviously a good Christian who just wants to spread the good news, but your constant assumption that we don’t already have it just because we are Catholic is extremely hurtful and divisive.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Kinsman]

Catholic4aReasn:

Not true. James shows us that one can have a faith that is dead, useless and incomplete. That isn’t NO faith, but a dead, useless and incomplete faith.

No, James is not saying that at all. The key to James’ teaching on faith-works is in 2:14, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man SAYS he has faith, but he has no works? Can that (definite article, lit. the) faith save him?" Translated in our vernacular, “Can (his) or (that) faith save him?”

Now it must first be understood that James is not denying the clear Biblical teaching (especially Pauline) that savation is by grace through faith alone (Eph. 2:8-10). Faith must have an object and the object of salvation faith, according to Paul’s gospel (Rom. 2:16; Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:18), is the expiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross (see Jn. 3:14-18), the shedding of His precious blood as the price paid, in full, for man’s redemption from ALL sins:

ROM 3:24 “…being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

In his letter James is not presenting to his recipients a doctrinal treatise on salvation and faith, but a hyposthesis regarding faith itself. “If a man SAYS he has faith…,” is the core of the question James deals with head on. A “said” faith, but not necessarily a *“possessed” *faith. In other words, just because a man SAYS he has faith, does he?

Paul unequivocally states in Rom. 4:1-6 that if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; qualifying this by, “but not before God.” *“For what does the Scripture say? And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” *(Gen. 15:6). He goes on to explain the difference, *"Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor (grace), but what is due (in respect to a wage for works rendered). But to the one who does not work, but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly (notice it is God who justifies, not one’s works), HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness *(justification, same Greek root word). And presenting his second witness Paul concludes, “just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteous (justified) apart from works.”

James, in the context of the question in 2:14, examples Abraham and an event that took place in his life many years AFTER God had already reckoned him righteous because of his faith. His willingness to offer up his son Isaac. Obviously Abraham could not demonstrate the righteousness God imputed to him because of his faith, that being a declared act of God, but he did demonstrate many years later the quality of that faith by which God justified him. And this is what James meant by, *“show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works” *(2:18b).

James is not saying, as you say, that one can have a “faith” that is “dead, useless and incomplete.” In other words, a “faith” in need of resusitation or maturity. A “said faith,” in the context of James’ argument, Nancy, is actually NO FAITH at all.

RC’ism always circumvents Paul and runs to James to justify their faith plus works “gospel.” But James is not presenting to his readers a doctrinal treatise on faith and salvation. He’s simply confronting an issue, and in so doing comparing a “said faith” to a demonstrable “true faith.” It is erroneous indeed to build the doctrine of salvation on James’ brief argument.

 

[MariaG]

You say no faith catholics say dead faith. They are in effect the same thing. And we have not built a doctrine of Salvation around James. But we do not ignore him either.

 

[Kinsman]

MariaG:

You say no faith catholics say dead faith. They are in effect the same thing. And we have not built a doctrine of Salvation around James. But we do not ignore him either.

Roman apologists greatly stress James when defending their faith. No, you certainly don’t ignore him, the problem is, as I have demonstrated, you take him completely out of context. James does not AT ALL make an argument for faith plus works, or, works necessary for salvation. As others have tried to convey on this thread, works follow salvation, but salvation never follows works. Men could do nothing until Christ first did it all. We are now required to trust in Christ alone, His finished work on the cross on our behalf, for our complete salvation and justification before God: Jn. 3:14-18; Rom 4:18 - 5:2; Eph. 2:8-10.

 

[MariaG]

As others have tried to convey on this thread, works follow salvation, but salvation never follows works. Men could do nothing until Christ first did it all. We are now required to trust in Christ alone, His finished work on the cross on our behalf, for our complete salvation and justification before God: Jn. 3:14-18; Rom 4:18 - 5:2; Eph. 2:8-10.

Catholics do not believe and have not stated on this thread that works will save you. But Catholics have said and you seem to agree that works** will** follow salvation.

Catholics do not believe we can “work” our way to heaven. Council of Trent to the new joint proclamation have never said we can earn our way to heaven. And yes, Catholic do greatly stress James. Put it in context. James was greatly stressed especially, after Luther proclaimed his “faith alone” doctrine and stated his opinion that James was not ever inspired work of God. Have Protestants always believed Faith alone in the same manner as was declared by the joint council? I don’t know. But Catholics do not believe we can earn our way to heaven through good works. I’ve shown you the council of Trent. Francisca has posted the joint declaration. Show me where Catholics do not agree with Protestants that our justification comes only by God’s Grace and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

Emphasis of James does not mean we do not understand what James is saying. Emphasis of James is just reminding people that if there are not “good works” present in you life you have in Catholic words, a dead faith, or in Protestant words, you never had faith to begin with.