Is HAVING faith enough?

[francisca]

Catholic4aReasn:

The majority of Christians, Catholics and Protestant alike, disagree with this idea that those who are saved no longer sin. No longer being a slave to sin does not mean that we will no longer sin but rather than sin no longer has a hold on us. We still fail, but our failures no longer condemn us, as they would under the law. Under grace our failures are covered by the blood of the Lamb and need not separate us from God. Personally, I think the teaching that the saved no longer sin is a dangerous one.

You don’t understand because you have no experience of this yet.

I am not saying if one believe then suddenly he turns into robot that cannot make mistakes anymore.

I’m talking about FREEDOM FROM CERTAIN SIN/ SINS in one’s life.

For example there is a man who has drinking habit. And when he got drunk he beat his wife and do many other sins. He goes to confessions after confessions but he keeps falling and falling again.

I tell you this : Romans 7&8 is talking about this kind of PROBLEM AND FREEDOM FROM IT: that if this man believe in God’s Merciful Plan, he will receive healing from this bad habit. He will stop drinking totally because God free him. And not only Romans 8 talking about this, but all the gospel books are talking about this teaching.

I hope now you all understand what I have been trying to say. This is not my teaching but the Gospel’s teaching. And I give you testimony that it is true : that if this man who has drinking problem really believe, he WILL STOP DRINKING because God free him from this bad habit.

Being freed from sin doesn’t mean that we no longer sin, it means that sin no longer has a permanent hold on us. Those under the law were slaves to sin because to break even ONE precept of the law was the break the whole darn thing. People under the law were doomed to failure. But for those of us under grace, one failure doesn’t ruin the whole thing. We can repent and turn back to God.

I agree. But this is not only “concept” that we “learn” but it has to be manifested in our life. Why could we ever believe in such “theory” when God seems “far away in heaven” and does not seem to help us in our journey to salvation?

This teaching is not something that you “strive hard to believe” then “prove it’s effectiveness later” on the day when we die…

Our freedom from sins starts from our present life. If you have problems with sins, this is the answer : That you must believe Jesus has died for your sins, and that is how God will free you from your problems whether it is drinking problems, lusts, financial problems, sicknesses, etc.

This is not my teaching but THE GOSPEL teaching : that Jesus free us from our sins. He free us layer by layer, and we walk this journey in IN HIS WAY of FAITH and HOPE in HIM.

Then our heart will be FULL of His Praise & Thanksgiving because we KNOW for sure that He is “near” and that He loves us and hears us when we ask Him to help us and that He is faithful to us.

May God blesses us all.

 

[francisca]

Catholic4aReasn:

True, but this faith cannot merely be a mental assent but must be an ACTIVE faith or, as Paul put it, “only faith working through love (Gal 5:6)”.

There were always accompanying ACTS of faith.

But our ACTS of faith is not the reason that we are saved. And truely one can only BELIEVE without doing anything and receive healing from God. This healing is a sign of God’s undeserved favor that one receive.

Remember that “hemmoragic woman” who touched Jesus’s garment. Then what did Jesus say to her ? Did Jesus say “because you touched My garment that now you are saved” ? No, Jesus said “Youf faith has saved you”.

ACTS of faith only EXIST if ONE HAVE FAITH.

May God blesses us all

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

francisca:

But our ACTS of faith is not the reason that we are saved.

I don’t believe that anyone has made that claim. The claim that has been expressly made is that faith and living one’s life accordingly go together and are inseparable.

And truely one can only BELIEVE without doing anything and receive healing from God.

The issue of this thread is not can one receive healing only by believing. The issue is can one be saved without living ones faith.

Remember that “hemmoragic woman” who touched Jesus’s garment. Then what did Jesus say to her ? Did Jesus say “because you touched My garment that now you are saved” ? No, Jesus said “Youf faith has saved you”.

But the fact remains that she did “reach out” in faith. That was her act. It was her faith which lead her to act. The two together healed her.

ACTS of faith only EXIST if ONE HAVE FAITH.

Of course. And without the acts of faith the faith is dead. Scripture doesn’t say that if one doesn’t act upon their faith then they never had faith to begin with. Scripture says that if one does not act upon their faith then the faith that they DO have is dead, useless and incomplete. One’s faith cannot be dead, useless, and incomplete if one never had faith to begin with.

I think you may have a misunderstanding of the Catholic position on this issue. “Works”, as used in James, means living one’s faith. Paul calls it “faith working through love” and “the obedience of faith”. You seem to think we mean individual acts, like the woman touching Jesus’ cloak. It can, but more generally it means walking the walk not just talking the talk. Scripture is clear that this is not just an automatic thing that happens upon accepting Christ as one’s personal Lord and Savior. Some say that if one has faith one will live that faith. If one doesn’t then one never had faith to being with. Not true. James shows us that one can have a faith that is dead, useless and incomplete. That isn’t NO faith, but a dead, useless and incomplete faith.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

francisca:

You don’t understand because you have no experience of this yet.

I am not saying if one believe then suddenly he turns into robot that cannot make mistakes anymore.

I’m talking about FREEDOM FROM CERTAIN SIN/ SINS in one’s life.

For example there is a man who has drinking habit. And when he got drunk he beat his wife and do many other sins. He goes to confessions after confessions but he keeps falling and falling again.

I tell you this : Romans 7&8 is talking about this kind of PROBLEM AND FREEDOM FROM IT: that if this man believe in God’s Merciful Plan, he will receive healing from this bad habit. He will stop drinking totally because God free him. And not only Romans 8 talking about this, but all the gospel books are talking about this teaching.

I hope now you all understand what I have been trying to say. This is not my teaching but the Gospel’s teaching. And I give you testimony that it is true : that if this man who has drinking problem really believe, he WILL STOP DRINKING because God free him from this bad habit.

I agree. But this is not only “concept” that we “learn” but it has to be manifested in our life. Why could we ever believe in such “theory” when God seems “far away in heaven” and does not seem to help us in our journey to salvation?

This teaching is not something that you “strive hard to believe” then “prove it’s effectiveness later” on the day when we die…

Our freedom from sins starts from our present life. If you have problems with sins, this is the answer : That you must believe Jesus has died for your sins, and that is how God will free you from your problems whether it is drinking problems, lusts, financial problems, sicknesses, etc.

This is not my teaching but THE GOSPEL teaching : that Jesus free us from our sins. He free us layer by layer, and we walk this journey in IN HIS WAY of FAITH and HOPE in HIM.

Then our heart will be FULL of His Praise & Thanksgiving because we KNOW for sure that He is “near” and that He loves us and hears us when we ask Him to help us and that He is faithful to us.

May God blesses us all.

This thread isn’t about sin and healing.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Shibboleth]

Catholic4aReasn:

Perhaps the desire will come, but actually doing them is still a choice. It’s a matter of either cooperating with the grace that you are given or not.

To say that we will do good works (behave as a Christian) whether we want to or not means that we no longer have free will. Where do you believe scripture supports this idea?

In Christ,
Nancy

We still have the ability to choose to reject God. If we do not reject God then we will produce good works; however, we are still sinners by nature and will have the desire not to do what we should. At times we will fail and sin even in God’s Grace.

Jesus died for these sins, and our faith in Jesus’ sacrifice is enough that we need not do any works to absolve these sins. From a Lutheran standpoint…

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

We still have the ability to choose to reject God. If we do not reject God then we will produce good works; however, we are still sinners by nature and will have the desire not to do what we should. At times we will fail and sin even in God’s Grace.

Not rejecting God is what Paul refers to as “the obedience of faith”. That’s what the works of James is. “Works” aren’t only feeding the poor etc… The works of James is Christ-like behavior…faith working through love.

Jesus died for these sins, and our faith in Jesus’ sacrifice is enough that we need not do any works to absolve these sins.

Sure we do; the “work” (action) of confessing the sin and repenting. Also, if we expect to be forgiven we must forgive others. Faith cannot be passive. It MUST be active.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Shibboleth]

Catholic4aReasn:

Not rejecting God is what Paul refers to as “the obedience of faith”. That’s what the works of James is. “Works” aren’t only feeding the poor etc… The works of James is Christ-like behavior…faith working through love.

Sure we do; the “work” (action) of confessing the sin and repenting. Also, if we expect to be forgiven we must forgive others. Faith cannot be passive. It MUST be active.

In Christ,
Nancy

The question you have raised often arises in connection with the words spoken by Jesus in the context of the Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:14), “If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

In view of Scripture’s wider teaching concerning forgiveness, it seems proper to understand Jesus’ point in Matthew 6:14 to be that the stubborn, persistent refusal to forgive others is evidence of a blinded and hardened heart which lacks a real understanding of and faith in God’s forgiveness in Christ. What Jesus is doing here, therefore, is issuing a strong warning to us to “search our hearts” to see if we really understand and accept the Gospel and its practical implications for our lives. If we say, “I want God to forgive me, but I refuse to forgive those who sin against me,” we really don’t know what “forgiveness” and “faith in Jesus” are all about. We cannot expect God to “forgive” us if the attitude of our heart reveals that we have no real understanding of or faith in his undeserved grace in Christ Jesus. Anyone who truly understands the true nature God’s grace and forgiveness in Christ and puts his or her trust in that forgiveness will desire and seek to extend that forgiveness to others. God’s forgiveness is not a “reward” for our forgiving others, but once we receive it in true faith and gratitude it is impossible not to want to share it with others.

 

[Andyman1517]

Well, the Bible tells us that faith without works is dead. I suppose it’s safe to say that for salvation purposes, you need to first have faith, and then act on that faith. Works with no faith may indicate that you’re a nice person, but nothing more.

In Christ,

Andy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

Anyone who truly understands the true nature God’s grace and forgiveness in Christ and puts his or her trust in that forgiveness will desire and seek to extend that forgiveness to others. God’s forgiveness is not a “reward” for our forgiving others, but once we receive it in true faith and gratitude it is impossible not to want to share it with others.

I respectfully disagree. I think that we are called to forgive EVEN IF WE DON’T WANT TO. Therein lies the challenge for the Christian. Saying that if one is truly a Christian one will just naturally desire to forgive others is simply untrue. That makes feelings the gauge of the authenticity of faith and one’s relationship with the Lord. That’s a dangerous teaching indeed and certainly nothing that is supported in scripture. James makes it clear that it’s our BEHAVIOR that indicates our faith, not our feelings.

We’ve gotten off topic again.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[RBushlow]

Catholic4aReasn:

That being said, is lliving the faith that one has necessary for salvation?

Holy Scripture says so in James:

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

and Revalations 20:13 also says that we will be judged according to our works

 

[jimmy]

Catholic4aReasn:

This question is for our Protestant brothers and sisters.

We all agree that HAVING faith is necessary for salvation. Is LIVING the faith that one has necessary for salvation? Why or why not?

In Christ,
Nancy

Faith is not enough. Even Satan has faith. Yet he will never be saved.

 

[RBushlow]

RBushlow:

**Catholic4aReasn:
Quote:

*That being said, is lliving the faith that one has necessary for salvation?
*

Holy Scripture says so in James:

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

and Revalations 20:13 also says that we will be judged according to our works
Sorry forgot Paul:
“For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality” (Rom. 2:6–11)

 

[francisca]

Which ones of the things that we do are “good works” ?

Don’t we do works all the time everyday ?

We do this, we do that…

But which ones are REALLY “the good works” ?

Suppose one has a habit of gambling. Does he loves his family like God ask him to ?

Which one of our good works that we do that does not granted by God?

We are crowned by our good works because God has crowned us with His Glory first. We love because God has loved us first.

We say this in our hearts as we do all the things that we do : “Let Thy will be done…” And this shall not be merely “lip service”. If you gamble uncontrollably, then you’d better stop NOW. But it’s nothing easy.

Then we begin to create a dichotomy between “good works” and “our secret bad habits”.

There should be something greater than our reasonings and understanding and muscle-capabilities to do these “good works” we are talking about. And this “something greater” is called OUR FAITH (or rather GOD’S GRACE).

It is totally wrong when one talking about “good works” yet left out with a question “Is having FAITH enough?”. Because FAITH is the freely given GRACE that one say “Let Thy Will be done (in the things that I do everyday)”.

Because if one has Faith (or rather that God has bestowed GRACE on him), it will show in the things that he does. And if he say “I have faith” but it does not show, then maybe his faith is only a seed that has not grown-up yet, or maybe he has no faith at all. In all cases, without FAITH (or rather God’s GRACE), there shall never be any “good works” whatsoever. Because man do many things everyday. This discussion about “works” is really semantic! Many protestants explain to us that they do believe in good works too. Even I have once read one of Luther’s letter stated that he believes in good works.

[Augustine, “A Treatise on Grace and Free Will” ] :

How, then, is eternal life by grace, when it is received from works? … This question then, seems to me to be by no means capable of solution, unless we understand that even those good works of ours, which are recompensed with eternal life, belong to the grace of God… It follows, then, beloved, beyond all doubt, that as your good life is nothing else than God’s grace , so also the eternal life which is the recompense of a good life is the grace of God; moreover, it is given gratuitously, even as that is given gratuitously to which it is given. But that to which it is given is solely and simply grace; this therefore is also that which is given to it, because it is its reward; grace is for grace, as if remuneration for righteousness; in order that it may be true, because it is true, that God ‘shall reward every man according to his works.’" [end of quote]

[Augustine, “A Treatise on Rebuke and Grace”] :

“Nevertheless, since even that eternal life itself, which, it is certain, is given as due to good works, is called by so great an apostle the grace of God, although GRACE IS NOT RENDERED TO WORKS, but is given FREELY, it must be confessed without any doubt, that eternal life is called grace for the reason that it is RENDERED to those MERITS which GRACE has CONFERRED upon man.” [end of quote]

So if good works is also God’s Grace. And God’s Grace is nothing that we can “earn”, then what do we do? Just believe then that GRACE has been bestowed on us 2000 years ago that Jesus died for us on the cross to take away our sins. Because truely this is God’s purposeful plan that we are free from sin and believe in Him so that we can do all the good works God has provided in store for us.

May God blesses us all.

 

[MariaG]

And God’s Grace is nothing that we can “earn”, then what do we do?

No where has anyone said anything about “earning” our way to heaven. Saying faith without works is dead in no way means that “good works” will “earn” our way to heaven. I guess I am confused by what you are saying.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Philthy]

Shibboleth:

Having God’s Grace and faith in Jesus will lead someone to bear good fruit. The tree bears the fruit the fruit does not bear the tree.

“A tree is known by its fruit” - You may think your a peachtree, but when you start producing Crabapples the truth is revealed. Until you start producing the fruit that defines you, you are nothing. The tree bears the fruit, but the fruit defines the tree.

 

[Philthy]

Francisca

“But the amazing thing about this teaching is-- according to Appostle Paul and John-- If you believe, then you WILL NOT SIN ANYMORE. This means freedom from slavery of lust, drinking, and smoking, etc too. And I know this as I have experience this as well as from others’ testimonies. Our life is perfected in Jesus literally.”

A bit optimistic of an interpretation if you ask me. for starters you haven’t qualified the “belief” that will lead to not sinning anymore: Perfect Belief? This may be true for the Saints, but who can actually judge thmeselves as sinless before God? How does this theology fit with these verses:

HEB 12-3 “Beloved, I urge you as aliens and sojourners to keep away from worldly desires which wage war against the soul.” That doesnt sound like “Hey just keep the faith and the rest will take care of itself”…
LUKE 9:23 “Then he said to all, 'whoever wishes to come after me must deny Himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”

 

[tuopaolo]

Oops. Sorry. I accidently voted in this poll (for that it is necessary for salvation). I’m not Protestant so I shouldn’t have voted. I voted before reading the explanation in the post.

 

[francisca]

Philthy:

Francisca

“But the amazing thing about this teaching is-- according to Appostle Paul and John-- If you believe, then you WILL NOT SIN ANYMORE. This means freedom from slavery of lust, drinking, and smoking, etc too. And I know this as I have experience this as well as from others’ testimonies. Our life is perfected in Jesus literally.”

A bit optimistic of an interpretation if you ask me. for starters you haven’t qualified the “belief” that will lead to not sinning anymore: Perfect Belief? This may be true for the Saints, but who can actually judge thmeselves as sinless before God? How does this theology fit with these verses:

HEB 12-3 “Beloved, I urge you as aliens and sojourners to keep away from worldly desires which wage war against the soul.” That doesnt sound like “Hey just keep the faith and the rest will take care of itself”…
LUKE 9:23 “Then he said to all, 'whoever wishes to come after me must deny Himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”

I’m not saying that we do not sin anymore in “all area” in our life… sorry for not being spesific about it. I was talking about how Jesus heal the sick as a sign of forgiveness of their sins (thus receive Justification). I am talking about salvation that we receive through God’s grace but walking in a journey of Faith. I did not mean that one is forgiven once then become holy saint in all area. But it’s true if God free a man from a bad habit, that bad habit will be gone forever (thus this man is truly FREE from THAT sin). To receive this one must trust God in that specific area.

So if this thread talks about whether one has to live ones faith in order to be saved, then how do people with bad habit live their faith? Then it becomes imposible for them to be saved.

Because if we talk about salvation, we always talk about “forgiveness of sins”. And forgiveness of sins is always about “justification”.

And Jesus say to the man who could not get up from his sickbed “Your sins have been forgiven”. Then all the pharisees was surprised because the “standard” teaching says “only God can forgive sins” But then Jesus say “which one is easier : to say ‘your sins I have forgiven you’ or ‘get up and walk’ ?” Then Jesus said to the paralytic “get up” then he was healed.

This passage shows that Jesus’s works in the Gospel have one meaning : that one receives salvation through “forgiveness of sins”. And this forgiveness of sins is followed by a sign : that one is restored to “clean state” by God’s Grace not by man’s works.

After one is free then one can do “good works” and be vigilant, etc.

 

[Steven_Merten]

NAB JOH 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God.

NAB JAM 2:14

My brothers, what good is it to profess faith without practicing it? Such faith has no power to save one, has it? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and no food for the day, and you say to them, “Good-bye and good luck! Keep warm and well fed,” but do not meet their bodily needs, what good is that? so it is with the faith that does nothing in practice. It is thoroughly lifeless.
To such a person one might say, You have faith and I have works is that it? Show me your faith without works, and I will show you the faith that underlies my works! Do you believe that God is one? you are quite right. The demons believe that, and shudder.

NAB LUK 4:33

In the synagogue there was a man with an unclean spirit, who shrieked in a loud voice: Leave us alone! What do you want of us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are: the Holy One of God. (LUK 4:41)​

People believe in God by putting into action what He tells them to do. People believe in Jesus by putting into practice what he teaches them. The Pharisees had to act upon Jesus teaching to be believers in JESUS IS LORD. Simply recognizing Jesus as the Messiah and Lord has nothing to do with falling under the category of being a believer. Christ asks, that if you do not act as he has commanded, why do you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe him to be Lord?

NAB MAT 7:21

“None of those who cry out, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. When that day comes, many will plead with me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ have we not prophesied in your name? have we not exorcized demons by its power? Did we not do many miracles in your name as well? Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Out of my sight, you evildoers!”
"Anyone who hears my words and puts them into practice is like the wise man who built his house on rock. When the rainy season set in, the torrents came and the winds blew and buffeted his house, It did not collapse; it had been solidly set on rock.

NAB LUK 6:43
Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’ and not put into practice what I teach you?" NAB JER 7:4

Put not your trust in the deceitful words: “This is the temple of the LORD! The temple of the LORD! The temple of the LORD!” Only if you thoroughly reform your ways and your deeds;

NAB 1JO 2:3
The way we can be sure of our knowledge of him is to keep his commandments, The man who claims, “I have known him,” without keeping his commandments, is a liar, in such a one there is no truth.NAB GAL 6:7

Make no mistake about it, no one makes a fool of God! A man will reap only what he sows. If he sows in the field of the flesh, he will reap a harvest of corruption; but if his seed-ground is the spirit, he will reap everlasting life. Let us not grow weary of doing good; if we do not relax our efforts, in due time we shall reap our harvest. While we have the opportunity, let us do good to all men but especially those of the household of the faith.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Shibboleth]

jimmy:

Faith is not enough. Even Satan has faith. Yet he will never be saved.

Just to reiterate this point because I hear it consistently. The ‘faith’ in which Protestants refer to is not the same ‘faith’ that is being mentioned here. Both Catholics and Protestants agree that there are two types of ‘faith’ and ‘works.’

In this instance faith is little more than knowledge because Satan does not have God’s Grace therefore he cannot be bestowed with the gift of ‘true faith’ in Jesus. Catholics believe this also…

Satan can also do good works but they are the works of an unbeliever. These are not equivalent to the Good Works in question. Unbelievers do good works all the time, but it does not mean that they have faith.