Is HAVING faith enough?

[Shibboleth]

MariaG:

You say no faith catholics say dead faith. They are in effect the same thing. And we have not built a doctrine of Salvation around James. But we do not ignore him either.

Lutherans call it dead faith also… sometimes. After baptism we are given or presented with the gift of Faith – this can never be taken away at this point. Why would God take it away from us? No… we can only reject the faith that he has given us.

Catholic4aReasn and I have been politely quiet about the hart of the difference between Catholics and Protestants on the issue. We are trying to use our pawns to back the other person’s queen into a corner so to speak.

Anyways, although the differences seem rather trivial they are not when the total ramifications are taken into account. It’s like pointing a telescope at the wall – bump it and what we see has only moved a few inches but point it at a star and a little bump moves what we see by thousands of light-years.

The real question that would insight probably some very heated debate is “What is considered Living the Faith.” If a Catholic does not think that Lutherans are living the Faith what does that say about the Lutheran Faith…

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

francisca:

I did not say that it would be easy. Especially because it’s difficult that we must walk together with Jesus. Instead of going back and forth the confession room, one must confess their faith that God is the one to save them. I am not against sacrament of penance. Now don’t get me wrong again.

I’m sure you’re not against the sacrament of penance, but you do misunderstand it. When one goes to confession one IS confessing to God. There is no “instead” about it.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

francisca:

This teaching about works is a misunderstanding of the past. Now the Church has come to an agreement with Lutherans that Justification is only God’s action.

There has never been a misunderstanding about works. The Church has not changed her teaching on justification. She doesn’t have the authority to do so. What the Church and Lutherans were able to do was find wording that was acceptable to both parties.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Asa_Ben_Judah]

Shibboleth:

The real question that would insight probably some very heated debate is “What is considered Living the Faith.” If a Catholic does not think that Lutherans are living the Faith what does that say about the Lutheran Faith…

If Salvation depends upon ‘Living the FAITH’, then I would ask ‘faith in what?’ and also if Salvation depends upon WORKS, then I would ask ‘what are the works that are necessary?’

The glorious message of the Gospel is lost in a sea of controversy that has broken the unity that Jesus prayed for his disciples/church prior to his passion. There can only be ONE Faith and ONE Baptism/work, where is the authority if it does not stand with a Catholic Priest?

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Matt 7:21,22

 

[MariaG]

posted by Shibboleth
The real question that would insight probably some very heated debate is “What is considered Living the Faith.” If a Catholic does not think that Lutherans are living the Faith what does that say about the Lutheran Faith…

As our separated brethren, Lutherans certainly live the faith. Just not the fullness of the faith .

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

francisca:

It will not “naturally” happen actually. Rather, it will “supernaturally” happen, provided you believe.

Chapter and verse please. Thanks!

I know it is hard to believe. God’s goodness is something beyond our understanding. So let go and let God. That is the only way.

It’s easy to believe that God can do anything, that’s not the issue. The issue is how does God’s grace work in a person. I see two choices. If I missed an option please help me out:

1. God freely gives his grace and the person is FREE to cooperate with that grace or not.
2. God freely gives his grace and the person has no other choice but to cooperate.

If I’m not mistaken, #2 is the Calvinst position. Irrisistable grace, or something like that. Perhaps you are a Calvinist and I didn’t realize it.

And no, it is not about feeling. I am NOT talking about feeling. I am talking about walking THE WAY of FAITH apart from works of the law or any other works that we do.

Again, works of the law has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic.

There is no faith apart from works (Christ-like behavior). You cannot have one without the other. Both are a product of grace. Both are a submission of one’s free will to grace. God tells us, in no uncertain terms, that faith is completed by our works (Christ-like choices). If faith is complete by our Christ-like choices then faith alone is incomplete. In fact, God says so in no uncertain terms “we are justified by works and NOT by faith alone”.

Matthew 21:21
And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have FAITH and DO NOT DOUBT, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ IT WILL HAPPEN.

This is not my teaching but Jesus’s. I simply hold it in my heart, and to you all I witness that this teaching is true.

This verse is not pertinent to our discussion. It’s about the power of faith, not the sufficiency of faith. It has nothing at all to do with Christian behavior or salvation, which are what this thread is about.

I once had a bad habit that I tried to get rid for many years. And It went away because God freed me. Not that I freed myself with my effort. I do not even have anymore desire in doing those things I once could not let go. It’s just happened that It simply stopped !

This thread isn’t about whether or not one can be freed from bad habits. Of course we can. I don’t dispute that at all. I think we’re butting heads here because you are misunderstanding the Catholic use of the word “works” in the context of James. As has been explained in previous posts, “works” in James is not a reference to particular behaviors or bad habits. It’s merely Christ-like behavior, the day-to-day choices that we make to reflect the love of Christ in the world. This is NOT possible without grace. It’s a response to grace, but it’s a FREE WILL response…a choice. Even if loving your neighbor as yourself comes totally naturally without giving it a second thought it’s still a CHOICE. It’s still a response to God’s grace in our lives. We put our lives in God’s hands, trusting in His ways and then we make the CHOICE to live our lives accordingly. Faith and Christ-like behavior go hand in hand. Faith without works is dead, useless and incomplete. Works without faith are like dirty rags.

Go and read your bible and do not forget to praise Him in your prayers and songs. God is good!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Peace-bwu]

Faith in Christ is the foundation of our religious life. Faith is enough for those who are ONLY capable of faith. We are called to live out our faith. Faith without works is dead. God requires a response from us, to use our gifts and talents for His glory, to obey his will and His laws. The Holy Spirit calls us to live out our faith according to our individual gifts and personalities. We are expected to pick up our crosses and follow Him. He knows our hearts… whether we choose sin over him… the sin of gluttony over giving from our abundance, the sin of sloth over doing what is called of us… The sin of pride over putting His will and Word above our own ideas and desires. I could go on.

We are expected to love the Lord God with our whole hearts, our whole minds, and love our neighbors as ourselves. Faith is enough** when we are living it out through works in love.** Simply saying “I believe” is not enough for *most *of us, we are required to respond and let our faith grow and mature. Faith without works is dead. I would guess God does not look fondly on a dead faith, considering the enormous sacrifice made by His Son for our salvation. We are not required to “add” to the sacrifice, nor can we… but we are expected to live a Christ-like life. We are to mature and strive to live a holy life The closer we come to the cross the closer we come to suffering and sacrifice. We are expected to persevere to the end, no matter the suffering and pain. God has a plan for each of us, and we are to follow His Will. The “faith alone” theology does not pan out with Scripture. Faith without works is dead.

 

[Shibboleth]

We are saved in order to do good works but we are not saved by our works.

John 15

1. I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.

2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes 3 so that it bears more fruit.

3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.

4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.

 

[Shibboleth]

Sorry I am doing this becuase of the statement about getting it all from Romans.

Ephesians

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,

5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved.

6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–

9not by works, so that no one can boast.

10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[MariaG]

We are saved in order to do good works but we are not saved by our works.

I agree 100%. I just wonder how many times Lutherans have to explain what they mean by faith alone and Catholics mean by faith without works to get that we agree on this point?

by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church

Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.

Francisca emphasized the blue, I the red. We agree people.

 

[Shibboleth]

i always thought this verse was good…

Hebrews 11

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. **And by faith ** he still speaks, even though he is dead.

 

[MariaG]

But then so are these:

Jam 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and **not **by faith alone.

Funny the only place in the Bible to talk about faith alone tells us it is not by faith alone. No wonder Catholics completely rejected the “call of the Reformation” of “Faith Alone” no matter what the definition was.

Or I also like this one:

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything but faith working through love.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Philthy:

Until you start producing the fruit that defines you, you are nothing. The tree bears the fruit, but the fruit defines the tree.

That’s what Paul said, "if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not love, I am nothing (1 Cor 13:2). What is love? Real, Christ-like love is an ACTION. The ONLY thing that counts is faith working through love (Gal. 5:6). Paul didn’t say “the only thing that counts is faith”, because faith ISN’T the only thing that counts. Faith that isn’t working through love is dead, useless, incomplete (James 2:17, 20, 26) and causes one to be nothing (1 Cor 13:2). This action of love is GREATER than faith (1 Cor 13:13). Paul also says that, along with repenting and turning to God (faith) we NEED to do works as evidence of repentence. He didn’t say once you turn to God you will automatically do works, as has been suggested here, but rather that it’s something that we NEED to do. It’s a conscious choice we make, but it isn’t optional.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

Perhaps I should have said an intellectual assent.

.

James meant that we are justified by an intellectual assent and works? Abraham was justified by an intellectual assent when he offered his son? That doesn’t seem to make sense either.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

francisca:

If we separate “works of the law” and “works in our daily life”, then
our life becomes a dichotomy between “good works” and “daily activity”…

Francisca, “works of the law” don’t apply to us anymore. We aren’t under the law but under grace. “Works of the law” isn’t a reference to the 10 commandments (if I’m understanding you correctly that’s what you seem to be saying). “Works of the law” is a reference to the MOSAIC law, all the bajillions of rules and precepts that the Jews were subject to (see Leviticus).

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Shibboleth]

When James talks about faith and works we need to be careful.

James states that even daemons can believe in the one god. This is true but belief is not equivalent to “Faith.” God gives faith to us through his grace – daemons do not have God’s Grace so Faith never lived in them in the first place.

Daemons believe in God and they have an understanding of his Laws (10 commandments) etc., but they never have faith.

Cain believed in God he talked directly to him on occasion.
Cain did a good work and believed but he did not have Faith – his work was empty and rejected by God… without Faith all works are empty even if we believe.

We can tell people that do not have faith if they do not produce good works. Faith is a living thing in us…

Martin Luther
“Faith is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, so that it is impossible for it not to be constantly doing what is good. Likewise, faith does not ask if good works are to be done, but before on can ask, faith has already done them and is constantly active… Whoever does not perform such good works is a faithless man, blindly tapping around in search of faith and good works without knowing what either faith or good works are…It is therefore as impossible to separate works from faith as it is to separate heat and light from fire.”

Belief is not equivalent with faith and that is what James is talking about. Faith without works is simply belief – since faith is a living and active thing in us than if it does not produce than it is dead in us… yes faith is very much dead without works.

Nowhere does anyone say that works are the food that sustain faith – works are the product of a living faith

 

[Shibboleth]

Catholic4aReasn:

Francisca, “works of the law” don’t apply to us anymore. We aren’t under the law but under grace. “Works of the law” isn’t a reference to the 10 commandments (if I’m understanding you correctly that’s what you seem to be saying). “Works of the law” is a reference to the MOSAIC law, all the bajillions of rules and precepts that the Jews were subject to (see Leviticus).

In Christ,
Nancy

And yet fools will quote Leviticus when trying to condemn homosexuality. For goodness sakes if you are going to do it at least use the right passages.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

Nowhere does anyone say that works are the food that sustain faith – works are the product of a living faith

Do products complete that from which they were produced?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

And yet fools will quote Leviticus when trying to condemn homosexuality. For goodness sakes if you are going to do it at least use the right passages.

I didn’t quote a passage. I directed her to Leviticus for the works of the law. Help me understand what your comment has to do with mine.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Shibboleth]

Catholic4aReasn:

James meant that we are justified by an intellectual assent and works? Abraham was justified by an intellectual assent when he offered his son? That doesn’t seem to make sense either.

In Christ,
Nancy

No he was not that is the point. He had faith and it lived in him producing works. An intellectual assent will not do this…

Faith through love…

Yes faith expresses itself in acts of love.