Is HAVING faith enough?

[Catholic4aReasn]

Kinsman:

Faith, according to the Bible is not works. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it (salvation) is a gift of God, not as a result of works, that no one should boast…" (Eph. 2:8-9).

Remember, Paul was referring to her works of the LAW, specifically circumcision, NOT the works that James referred to as that which completes our faith (James 2:22).

Paul says we are saved *“by grace through faith…not as a result of works.” *Obviously Paul is not categorizing faith as a type of “work.” Faith is not a work, its is a response, just as love is. "We love because He first loved us" (1 Jn. 4:19).

Amen!! And love is an ACTION. That’s what “works” are as James uses the term. They are loving , voluntary, obedienct responses to God’s grace.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

francisca:

If you say that we are not under Mosaic law, then :

If one kills someone, does he violate the 4th command of the ten commandments, or doesn’t he ?

If you say we are under grace, then :

Why are there still condemnations in The Church? Grace does not condemn. Instead, Grace takes away punishments. But any rule that brings about any punishment is called law.

Even if Romans 3:28 say “works of Torah”, yet it applies to any law, especially because verse 3:39 asks

“Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also?”

This means

“Does God exclusive for Israel? Does He exclusive for catholic church ? Or doesn’t He God of the all people ?”

Surely Paul is talking about us following God by “rule” or by “faith”. There is no distiction between works of the law and our daily conduct. Because mosaic law talks about Israel daily conduct, so the church talks about our daily conduct and its “punishments”

Romans 4:4
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

This verse applies to all kinds of law. Even the secular world understand that if one “behave” he will not get punished. It’s not applies to only mosaic law but all kinds of binding “rules”.

God bless.

Scripture uses the word “works” in a several different ways. Often people insert an incorrect definition which distorts the meaning. That seems to be what’s happening in this thread.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Pax]

Kinsman:

As for the RC term "initial justification," that’s RC theology, not Biblical. Certainly not Pauline. Divine justification throughout the N.T. Scriptures is based on what Christ did, once for all, never on what we did to get it or to maintain it. Like eternal life it is a GIFT by His grace (Rom. 3:24). There is absolutely no hint in Paul’s theology that divine justification must be retained by the recipient. That’s why it’s called a GIFT.

As to your comment regarding *“atonement for the sin of Adam,” *Christ took upon Himself ALL the sins of the world, not just Adam’s original sin (Jn. 1:29]. Yours and mine were included as well. And yes, that sacrifice was infinite in value. Sin is not the issue this side of the cross. The message is to believe and receive. Peter writes: “And He Himself bore our sins (plural) in His body on the cross…” (1 Pet. 2:24, compare, Gal. 1:4; Heb. 5:1,3; 1 Cor. 15:3; 1 Jn. 3:5). For this reason Rome’s teaching on “mortal” vs. “venial” sins is erroneous. This fundamental error then begets error until all of divine grace through Christ is distorted.

RC’ism distorts the clear teachings of Paul on faith as the basis for the free gifts of divine salvation, justification and eternal life revealed in the N.T. Scriptures. Reason being that if allowed to be understood Rome’s sacerdotal, sacramental religious system would serve no purpose and would consequently fall.

I can only assume that you believe in “Once Saved Always Saved” or you would not have stated the things you have in this post. I have a file containing in excess of sixty five NT verses that say otherwise and I would be happy to send them to you. Just send me a private message and I’ll email them your way.

You are mistaken on many things including mortal and venial sins. In 1 John 5:16 we read, “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.” Some bible translations use the word “deadly” in place of “mortal” but the meaning is the same.

Your comments on “initial justification” are clearly in error. As pointed out in my earlier post, Paul could not have said all of the other things that I quoted unless the Catholic understanding is the correct one. You have lifted Paul’s own words out of the context of Romans. In the beginning, middle, and end of Romans Paul talks about the “obedience of faith.” This is the context in which you need to understand much of what he wrote. Addtionally, you take Paul’s words out of the context of the rest of scripture. Compare all of your understandings with the very words of Jesus, Himself. You will find that the Catholic understanding fits perfectly with that of Jesus and that it shows how Paul’s teaching is to be understood.

The best appreciation of justification is in the context of adoption. This comes through in Jesus words and those of the other apostles, especially John and Paul. Nothing Paul or any other disciple says trumps the words of Jesus. Paul can only be properly understood in light of the Gospels. For even Paul says that it is the Gospel of Jesus that he preaches. Letters of correction against the teaching of the Judaizers does not lead to the conclusions you draw.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Do not forget that the Spirit is given if one have faith. For us, we have received the Spirit when we are baptized. And by this Spirit we call God “Daddy” (Abba). Now this however, only happen, if one really put his trust and hope in God. It is possible that one has Holy Spirit by baptism but yet he never involve Him in things that he does. In this case The Spirit cannot help him, because the person closes his mind from listening to His guidance and consolations. In other words, he does not put his trust & hope in God anymore means he has no FAITH. Instead he tries hard to follow God by “rules and regulations” fearing punishments from the law.

I’m not sure you’re aware that you are misusing and so probably misunderstanding, the word “law”. As used in scripture, it’s not a general, catch-all phrase that refers to all rules and regulations for all time. It’s a specific word referring to a specific set of rules and rejulations, specifically the Mosaic law. Christians can’t fear punichment from the law because for Christians the law no longer exists.

The law, and our good works cannot free us from our sins anymore.

This is the sort of misuse of the word “law” that I was referring to. In this context it makes no sense.

Instead, sin use the law to accuse us even harder and harder.

No, the law was used to reveal sins to the JEWS, not to Christians. We no longer have anything to do with the law. The law does NOT accuse Christians.

Even James’s “justification by works” says that

James 2:24 “man is ALSO justified by works not by faith ONLY”.

This shows that FAITH has to be there. And James does not deny that Faith is the cause of “good works”, not the other way round.

I’m surpised to see you write this in light of the previous posts explaining that just as faith alone is not enough, nor is works alone. Of course faith as to be there. That’s been reiterated many, many times.

However, James does not say that faith is the cause of good works, he says that faith is COMPLETED by works. And again, that’s not works of the law, but rather our Christ-like responses to grace.

Romans 6:18
and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

This word “slave” means works. And it shows that works comes after one is freed from sin.

No, “slave” does not mean “works”. Being a slave to sin means to be ENSLAVED by it, in it’s grasp.

If one is still slave to sin, God has to free him first. And it does not require “good works” from us because sinners does not have much of “good works” to offer. And especially because they are sinners, they need “justification”.

Correct, we are freed and then must remain free. This is where our choices come into play. We can forgo our freedom and become slaves again.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

QUOTE=Shibboleth]In the famous statement that “It is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven” Jesus makes direct reference to how futile works really are as a means of justification.

A person came up to Jesus and asked, I have done all of these things what is it that I am missing? Jesus told the person to give away all of his possessions. Now, did Jesus really mean that if that person gave away all of their riches they would be saved by that action? NO…

If that person would have had faith than they would have had the ability to go and do such a thing, since he did not have that faith it was impossible for him to do the act. Jesus was saying that the person did not have “faith” in Jesus - the person had simply done good things. Jesus was saying show me your faith through your works - the person was not able to do that because he did not have faith.

I respectfully disagree. Jesus didn’t say anything about the rich man’s faith. It was the rich man’s failure to RESPOND in faith that Jesus was referring to. Faith requires a response. That’s what “works” are in James. Without our free response, faith is incomplete (James 2:22).

We are not justified through our works.

Of course not. Faith must be present. We are not justified by faith alone (James 2:24) or by works alone. We have faith which is completed by our free response to God’s grace, our works.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[MariaG]

For this reason Rome’s teaching on “mortal” vs. “venial” sins is erroneous. This fundamental error then begets error until all of divine grace through Christ is distorted.

Scripture does not agree.

1 John 5:16 - 17 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not *leading *to death. There is sin leadingto death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

These verses exemplefy Catholic understanding of venial and mortal sin. Some sin cuts you off from God entirely, this is called mortal sin or as in 1 John, sin leading to death. And there is sin that does not completely cut you off from God, sin not leading to death, or venial sin.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Kinsman:

As for the RC term "initial justification," that’s RC theology, not Biblical. Certainly not Pauline. Divine justification throughout the N.T. Scriptures is based on what Christ did, once for all, never on what we did to get it or to maintain it. Like eternal life it is a GIFT by His grace (Rom. 3:24). There is absolutely no hint in Paul’s theology that divine justification must be retained by the recipient. That’s why it’s called a GIFT.

All gifts must be received, which requires and active response from the recipient.

As to your comment regarding *“atonement for the sin of Adam,” *Christ took upon Himself ALL the sins of the world, not just Adam’s original sin (Jn. 1:29]. Yours and mine were included as well. And yes, that sacrifice was infinite in value. Sin is not the issue this side of the cross. The message is to believe and receive. Peter writes: “And He Himself bore our sins (plural) in His body on the cross…” (1 Pet. 2:24, compare, Gal. 1:4; Heb. 5:1,3; 1 Cor. 15:3; 1 Jn. 3:5). For this reason Rome’s teaching on “mortal” vs. “venial” sins is erroneous. This fundamental error then begets error until all of divine grace through Christ is distorted.

I suspect you may misunderstand the Catholic teaching on mortal (deadly) and venial (not deadly) sin. It’s clearly taught in 1 John 5:16-17), but if we’re going to talk about it let’s start another thread.

RC’ism distorts the clear teachings of Paul on faith as the basis for the free gifts of divine salvation, justification and eternal life revealed in the N.T. Scriptures.

“Clear teaching” in scripture is subjective. What is so clear to one is clearly wrong to another. That’s the way it’s destined to go without a definitive, holy Spirit lead authority.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Pax]

Kinsman:

You completely avoided my basic point in response to what you wrote regarding faith and love as types of works. Regardless of your commentary on Mosaic and Levitical law (which I’ll confront shortly) the passage in Eph. 2:8-9 clearly demonstrates that Paul does not regard faith as a type of work of any sort…

I have researched numerous verses in the writings of Paul that directly refute your contention. I will, however, only quote one which is so utterly direct that it cannot possibly be questioned. Faith and love are, indeed, considered to be works by the apostle, Paul.

1 Thessalonians 1-4
PAUL, SILVANUS, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father ***your work of faith and labor of love ** * and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brethren beloved by God, that he has chosen you;

Now please reconsider what I’ve posted earlier concerning the warnings in the Book of Revelation concerning faith and love in the Churches of Ephesus and Thyatira. Scripture is not contradictory and all things must be taken in their full context. I hope this helps.

 

[francisca]

Pax:

Francisca,

I’m not quite sure how much we agree or disagree. There seems to be some common ground but it appears that we do diverge from one another.

I was sure we have a lot of common ground.

But I am not quite sure anymore if you say that “works of the law” can’t be “our daily activity” in Paul’s letters.

My thinking is this : if we do things, our action would always be subject to law. If we do not break any rules then there will be no “case” nor punishments. But once I do something “funny” then “the law” will look into my “case” and judge. So I think the law is always there.

I know what you mean about “work of mosaic law”-- about “sacraficing bulls and goats”-- are not our practice anymore. Yet it does not mean the mosaic law is not there anymore, because the Ten Commandments are the “core” of Mosaic Law. The Ten Commanments are also the bases of may aspects of Church Law until today.

My view is this : Paul say that FAITH would make one “work because of love”. But the absence of faith will make one “try to be righteous by rules”.

I am sure that charity works etc are important. But the Paul’s point here is the source of one’s righteousness. One can do “good works” because he fear “rules of the Church”. But those who has FAITH will obtain their righteousness from Christ (Philippians 3:9).

Romans 3:31
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Surely in the above Paul wrote that “the Law is still in effect” and even further, that those who can “fulfill the law” are those who have FAITH. Those who tries to do “the work of the law” fails.

Jesus also teaches us to do our works based on “faith”. Because if we believe, we will not sin.

Do you believe that God free you from your sins? This is the heart of the teaching of the Gospel.

Even if you call me calvinist, protestant, fundamentalist, etc : this is the heart of the good news. I don’t say that we “don’t have to do any good works”. I say : “good works are God’s grace after one is freed”. It is very biblical.

Romans 10:10
for with the HEART a person BELIEVES, resulting in RIGHTEOUSNESS, and with the MOUTH he CONFESS, resulting in SALVATION.

NAB Romans 10:10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

NAB Philipians 3:9
and be found in him, not having any righteousness of my own based on the law but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God, depending on faith

God bless.

 

[Steven_Merten]

**NAB MAT 21:31 **

Jesus said to them, **"I assure you that tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God **before you. When John came preaching a way of holiness, you put no faith in him; but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did believe in him. Yet even when you saw that, you did not repent and believe in him. "

How does one go to heaven by believing in John and putting faith in John? The biblical terms “faith” and “believe” do not mean the NON-biblical philosophy of “accepting Jesus as your personal savior”. If you study the biblical use of these terms, they mean to do what God tells you to do. John told the people what Jesus and the Father want them to do therefore “believing” in John or having “faith” in John (doing what he tells you to do) is the path to heaven.

---

**The way people go to heaven is through Jesus, the reason people go to heaven is because they love God and love for God is accomplished through free from the will of God obedience to the will of God, which is faith and belief in God. **

---

NAB ACTS 3:22
For Moses said: The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own kinsmen: you shall listen to him in everything he says to you. Anyone who does not listen to that prophet shall be ruthlessly cut off from his people.

NAB JOH 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God.

NAB JOH 12:44

Jesus proclaimed aloud: "Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; and whoever looks on me is seeing him who sent me. I have come to the world as its light, to keep anyone who **believes **in me from remaining in the dark. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life…

continued.

---

 

[Steven_Merten]

NAB JOH 8:31
**** “If you live according to my teaching, you are truly my disciples; then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

NAB JOH 14:14
"Anything you ask me in my name I will do. If you love me and obey the commands I give you."

NAB MAT 21:22

"You will receive all that you pray for, provided you have faith."

---

NAB WIS 12:2
Therefore you rebuke offenders little by little, warn them, and remind them of the sins they are committing, that they may abandon their wickedness and believe in you, O LORD!

---

NAB MAT 7:21

“None of those who cry out, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. When that day comes, many will plead with me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ have we not prophesied in your name? have we not exorcized demons by its power? Did we not do many miracles in your name as well? Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Out of my sight, you evildoers!"
"Anyone who hears my words and puts them into practice is like the wise man who built his house on rock. When the rainy season set in, the torrents came and the winds blew and buffeted his house, It did not collapse; it had been solidly set on rock. Anyone who hears my words but does not put them into practice is like the foolish man who built his house on sandy ground. The rains fell, the torrents came, the winds blew and lashed against his house. It collapsed under all this and was completely ruined.”

continued

 

[Steven_Merten]

NAB LUK 6:43

Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’ and not put into practice what I teach you?"

---

NAB LUK 8:13
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. They have no root; **they believe **for a while, but fall away in time of temptation.

INT PSA 78:32

In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; in spite of his wonders, they did not believe.

Please visit Believe and Faith which study the biblical background to God’s terminology and use of these words.

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[francisca]

Catholic4aReasn:

I’m not sure you’re aware that you are misusing and so probably misunderstanding, the word “law”. As used in scripture, it’s not a general, catch-all phrase that refers to all rules and regulations for all time. It’s a specific word referring to a specific set of rules and rejulations, specifically the Mosaic law. Christians can’t fear punichment from the law because for Christians the law no longer exists.

This is the sort of misuse of the word “law” that I was referring to. In this context it makes no sense.

If you say so, then the whole Paul’s letters to the Romans is completely irrelevant for us to read, because it talks about “nothing but an OLD EXPIRED law”. So some of Paul’s other letters mentioning the word “the law” are useless and completely “irrelevant” for us.

Instead,

Paul’s is talking about “law” as “the source of one’s righteousness” by “works of observance”.

Romans 10:5
3 Moses writes about the righteousness that comes from (the) law , “The one who does these things will live by them.”

Compare the above verse to the ones below:

righteousness that comes from FAITH

Romans 10:8 - 10
8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach),
9for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

 

[francisca]

NAB LUK 6:43

Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’ and not put into practice what I teach you?"

This verse talk about people who say “lord, lord” but does not mean what they say. Such people who shout “lord lord” are not necessarily have faith to begin with. Therefore they do not do what God ask them to.

We can do God’s will only if we believe.

---

NAB LUK 8:13
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. They have no root; **they believe **for a while, but fall away in time of temptation.

I think most of us are like this one. And it’s ok… I mean, as long as we keep sowing “seeds”, one day one of those “seeds” may fall on a fertile ground and grow big.

Many people listen to the word of God for years, when one day “one verse” hit him. And from there the tree grows.

I don’t see any works from our part except “receive” and “receive” from God. I think Paul is very wise when he say “So that no one may boast”. Indeed if we receive something from God because of our work, we then think “it’s because I do this and I do that, so that now God give me this”… this way of thinking has become a stumble stone for a lot of people to totally believe in God and be saved.

INT PSA 78:32

In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; in spite of his wonders, they did not believe.
​

We are sinners. But when we believe, we stop sinning. This is Jesus’s teachings through out the Gospel. And Jesus died for ours sins. If we say this is not the truth then we make God a liar, and therefore we will be counted among false witnesses (God’s enemies). But if we confess this truth, despite of anything, this is when we become God’s sons and daughters. Because we believe Him despite of anything, we trust in His Faithfulness and not our own faithfulness . And we must not say that God’s Promise can fail. This is a lie. We must HOLD ON FAST to this truth. We must listen to what The Holy Spirit teaches us because His word is truth , and therefore we believe. But if we listen to our sins then we are deceived because whatever truth in the accusations from our sins are not of the absolute truth. By doing this fight of faith one can win the war. It’s not about man’s wisdom, but about God’s power for those who believe.

1 Corinthians 2:5
so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the Power of God .

1 John 5:10
The one who believes in the Son of God has the TESTIMONY in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the TESTIMONY that God has given concerning His Son.

Romans 9:32
Why? Because they did NOT pursue it by FAITH, but as though it were BY WORKS. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

May God bless us all.​

 

[francisca]

Steven Merten:

How does one go to heaven by believing in John and putting faith in John? The biblical terms “faith” and “believe” do not mean the NON-biblical philosophy of “accepting Jesus as your personal savior”. If you study the biblical use of these terms, they mean to do what God tells you to do. John told the people what Jesus and the Father want them to do therefore “believing” in John or having “faith” in John (doing what he tells you to do) is the path to heaven.
[/qoute]

In my opinion to believe and to have faith and to do God’s will are the same thing, or at least almost the same.

In the Joint Declaration on Justification with Lutherans we understand this “semantic” problem that the word “by Faith Alone” is actually contain “works” inside it. It’s just how they define it. And what they give stress about faith was also stressed by Paul. This is my point.

In the above posting I try to discribe what it means to believe in this extreme Paul’s teachings at least from my personal testimony if not perspective. And yes this perspective is a charismatic believe in the Holy Spirit guidance in the way of Faith.

2 Corinthians 4:13
But having the same spirit of FAITH, according to what is written, “I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE,” we also believe, therefore we also speak,

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

francisca:

If you say so, then the whole Paul’s letters to the Romans is completely irrelevant for us to read, because it talks about “nothing but an OLD EXPIRED law”. So some of Paul’s other letters mentioning the word “the law” are useless and completely “irrelevant” for us.

The individual precepts of the Mosaic law ARE irrelevant for us. When Paul refers to justification by faith as opposed to works he’s speaking specifically about the precepts of the Mosaic law. His purposes of his letters to the Romans and the Galatians was in response to the false teachings of the Judaizers who were telling the new Christians that they still needed to be circumcized, that they still needed to observe the precepts of the Mosaic law in order to be justified. Paul wasn’t pitting faith against the work of Christ-like behavior (as James uses the word). He was teaching the new Christians that they were not to rely on the works of the Mosaic law for justification because they COULD’NT be justified by them.

It’s not enough to read the words of scripture. Context and the intent of the writer are essential. We can’t read the word “work” in Paul’s letter and thereby assume he’s referring to any and all work. You need to read the word “work” as HE meant it, which was specifically the precepts of the Mosaic law.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Beaver]

Catholic4aReasn:

Why is it impossible to HAVE faith without LIVING it? I’m not getting the color analogy.

Because faith without love is but a noisy gong, but what then is love.

I pray for you and everyone I know for love teaches me this. To love some is to desire the altimate goal of heaven for that person. God Bless…

 

[Steven_Merten]

francisca:

In my opinion to believe and to have faith and to do God’s will are the same thing, or at least almost the same.

If you believe this then we only have to go one step furthur. When someone askes you what they must do to go to heaven will you give Jesus answer which is to obey the commandments and feed the poor, because this is faith? Will you say that to feed the poor is faith that will lead to eternal life? Will you use the instructions on faith that Jesus left us with to teach people what they must do to share in everlasting life? A great many Protestants are decieved away from Christ’s truth.

NAB MATTHEW 19:16
“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

NAB MATTHEW 25:31

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ **And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” **
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Shibboleth]

A person could say, “A human must produce carbon dioxide (works) to be alive.” To this everyone would say that this is true. If someone does not produce carbon dioxide than they are dead.

However, we do not produce carbon dioxide in order to be alive, we produce carbon dioxide because we live.

Carbon Dioxide (works) is not a product of ourselves though, it is a byproduct of breathing (faith.) Carbon dioxide comes out of breathing and we have no control over that fact, if we breath we will produce carbon dioxide.

When we are born (baptized) God surrounds us with oxygen (Grace.) From that instant we are given the gift of breathing and instantly start producing carbon dioxide even though it is a minimal amount due to our limited size.

Some people here are saying that we must cooperate with God.

Kind of but not really…

As I said before from the instant we are born (baptized) we start breathing (have faith.) This is not a conscious effort or decision, it is a Gift from God. We can at some point choose to stop breathing (reject God.) But the instant we stop rejecting God our bodies start breathing again without any conscious decision. So we can never choose to breath, we can only choose not to breath.

We cannot naturally produce carbon dioxide (works) without breathing (faith), and breathing is useless without oxygen (Grace.)

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

A person could say, “A human must produce carbon dioxide (works) to be alive.” To this everyone would say that this is true. If someone does not produce carbon dioxide than they are dead.

However, we do not produce carbon dioxide in order to be alive, we produce carbon dioxide because we live.

Carbon Dioxide (works) is not a product of ourselves though, it is a byproduct of breathing (faith.) Carbon dioxide comes out of breathing and we have no control over that fact, if we breath we will produce carbon dioxide.

When we are born (baptized) God surrounds us with oxygen (Grace.) From that instant we are given the gift of breathing and instantly start producing carbon dioxide even though it is a minimal amount due to our limited size.

Some people here are saying that we must cooperate with God.

Kind of but not really…

As I said before from the instant we are born (baptized) we start breathing (have faith.) This is not a conscious effort or decision, it is a Gift from God. We can at some point choose to stop breathing (reject God.) But the instant we stop rejecting God our bodies start breathing again without any conscious decision. So we can never choose to breath, we can only choose not to breath.

We cannot naturally produce carbon dioxide (works) without breathing (faith), and breathing is useless without oxygen (Grace.)

I understand what you are saying, but the analogy is imperfect in a couple of ways. First, a person’s production of carbon dioxide due to breathing is INVOLUNTARY. Christ-like behavior (works), on the other hand, is completely VOLUNTARY.

Also, Christ-like behavior can’t really be considered a “by-product” of faith because a by-product is something produced in addition to the principal product. If faith were the principal product and Christ-like behavior were the by-product we’d see scripture telling us that works are something produced in addition to faith. That’s not what we see though. What scripture tells us is that faith is completed by Christ-like behavior (James 2:22), which is something quite different.

If Christ-like behavior became involuntary after one came to Christ in faith I’d totally agree with what you are saying. Some seem to truly believe that is does. I don’t find anything in scripture to support such an idea and many things which refute it, so I have to go with the plain meaning of the text of James 2:24, that we are justified by works and NOT by faith alone. It is with that knowledge that I read Romans and Galatians, knowing that scripture cannot contradict itself. Paul cannot be saying that we are justified by faith alone when James says that we are not justified by faith alone. In fact, Paul NEVER says that we are justified by faith ALONE, but simply says that we are justified by faith, which we are, and which is in perfect harmony with James 2:24.

In Christ,
Nancy