Is HAVING faith enough?

[Shibboleth]

Catholic4aReasn:

I understand what you are saying, but the analogy is imperfect in a couple of ways. First, a person’s production of carbon dioxide due to breathing is INVOLUNTARY. Christ-like behavior (works), on the other hand, is completely VOLUNTARY.

Voluntary in the way that we can choose not to breath.

PART 1

Actually this is the whole point of James. Someone can profess the name of God as the One, he can even cast out demons while he does it and other good acts: but, if it is not God’s will than these are not good works. Just being good and doing good deeds in the name of God is not necessarily true faith.

True faith is being obedient to God’s will not our own. If it is God’s will it is not our own doing. By faith Abraham obeyed… we can deny but we are not the ones that choose our works. God sets those up before us if we have true faith we will obey him and follow the path that he created for us… you know the verse that I am referring to…

 

[Shibboleth]

I think that the most beautiful statements about faith come from Hebrews 11.

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Cain knew god he believed in God – Cain did a good thing but he did not do that which was God’s will – he did a good work by his own will. Abel offered his sacrifice “by faith” by the will of God.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

When we do things ‘by faith’ look what can be done, but when we do them without faith they are empty.

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

‘By faith’ he did all of these things… not, he had faith and also did God’s will. No… by faith he moved with fear, prepared and Ark, and became heir of the righteousness… this is so important that it is repeated… by faith he did this.

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

By faith Abraham obeyed. Faith is a gift from God, we do not make our own faith. By God he obeyed God.

Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Right in this verse it is clarified ‘by faith’ means ‘through faith.’ Through faith all of these things occurred… through faith.

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

Humm… what was said in James… was not Abraham justified by works when he offered Issacc…

How did Abraham offer up his only begotten son… by faith… as clarified earlier through faith. Faith ‘wrought his works’ Wrought means bring to pass… by James own words faith brings works to pass…

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, [leaning] upon the top of his staff.
By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw [he was] a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment.
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter;
Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

 

[Shibboleth]

And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of] Jephthae; [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets:
Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
And others had trial of [cruel] mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
(Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth.

The last two lines are the most beautiful.

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise

God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Not once in all of this does it say by our works we accomplished. We cannot boast such a thing.

 

[Pax]

Francisca and Shibboleth,

Since much ground has been covered on both sides, it is safe to say that there is “common” ground. In some ways the discussion reflects the Lutheran / Catholic joint declaration of justification.

I mentioned in a response to one of Shibboleth’s posts that I like analogies especially when they are helpful in shedding light on the truth. I can appreciate Shibboleth’s efforts with the human body analogy…grace, oxygen, carbon dioxide etal.

As a followup, I was wondering how you would view the following analogy: Faith and works are like a human being. That is body and spirit. Now we all know what happens at death. The body is no longer animated by the spirit, and the body is dead. Likewise, faith without works is dead. Shibboleth and Francisca, what do you think?

Also, how do you view the verses I’ve cited that indicated that faith and love are works?

 

[francisca]

Also, how do you view the verses I’ve cited that indicated that faith and love are works?

Our love is imperfect. Often we love conditionally. We can truly love only in God (by Faith).

That is why John wrote “we love because God has loved us first” (1John 4:19).

This verse means if one does not believe that God loves him so much (that God has sent His only Son NOT to judge but TO SAVE - John 3:17), he won’t be able to love.

LOVE that is bigger than faith is God’s LOVE. We love by our imperfect little works, because God has loved us first. And yes LOVE is the greatest because God is LOVE.

Even we dispute about unecessary things out of self righteousness. But when we begin to focus on what Jesus has done for us, we feel ashamed with our own works . Even if we have “good works” to be proud of, we would ultimately realize that “those” are actually “Gods’ works” in us (freely given Grace).

To summarize, I would say that we should never put our trust in our faithfulness (our works), instead we must put our trust in God’s Faithfulness (Faith). We must confess our Faith-- especially-- in times of failures. Because when we fail, we realize we can’t do it alone. Therefore many people are touched by God in difficult times, that is when we realize we can’t do it alone. This is the time when we beg Him to help us despite our unfaithfulness. Then we know that His Faithfulness does not depend on our faithfulness. The teaching about God who is faithful only when we are faithful, is from the Old Covenant. The New Covenant talks about God who is FAITHFUL because of His Great Love for us. It does not depend on our works anymore, but on His Grace that makes us righteousness through faith (Romans 3:22).

Apostle Paul wrote that the trick is : those who tried to work out righteousness will ultimately find failure in fulfilling the law. But Those who BELIEVE-- are the successful ones in fulfilling the law (Romans 2:12-3:31).

Romans 3:3-4
What if some were unfaithful? Will their infidelity nullify the fidelity of God? Of course not! God must be true, though every human being is a liar,…

 

[Shibboleth]

Pax:

.
As a followup, I was wondering how you would view the following analogy: Faith and works are like a human being. That is body and spirit. Now we all know what happens at death. The body is no longer animated by the spirit, and the body is dead. Likewise, faith without works is dead. Shibboleth and Francisca, what do you think?

I read this and forgot about giving an answer. I am sorry…

Anyways Martin Luther had a similar question asked of him and he gave a great answer in the form of a story……

A poor and starving man came to the devil and sold is soul so that once in his life he would have a full stomach. In response the devil gave him a large meal that more than filled the man’s appetite.

At the end of the meal Satan came to collect his payment. The man quickly reminded Satan that the soul still resided in his body and that Satan would have to wait for him to pass from this world.

Satan replied, ”When you buy a horse do you not also get the reins?”

The man answered, “yes.”

With the response Satan smiled and took the man body and soul.
The point being is that while we are on this earth certain things are inseparable. If we let Jeus take the reins we can do no other than follow him body and soul.

 

[Pax]

Francisca and Shibboleth,

You’ve responded to my post but I get the feeling that you were not on task. This could be my fault and my expectations may have, therefore, been unfounded.

So, I’ll rephrase my questions (at least a little).

Can a person be saved if they do not love God?

Based on the scriptures I provided earlier, do you agree that faith and love are described as works?

Do you accept the analogy of the human being (body and spirit) to the relationship of faith and works? In the first, the body is dead if not animated by the spirit; and in the second, faith without works is dead. What do you think of the analogy?

 

[mayra_hart]

james said that a man is “justified by what he does” this passage alone should put an end to the contention that we are justified by faith alone. is it any wonder that some of the reformers attempted to put james into an appendix to the bible rather than in its historically accepted place? god bless

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Catholic4aReasn:

This question is for our Protestant brothers and sisters.

We all agree that HAVING faith is necessary for salvation. Is LIVING the faith that one has necessary for salvation? Why or why not?

In Christ,
Nancy

Yes, provided the the believer understand what Faith in Christ is. Faith is believing what God says and putting His Word into action.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

SPOKENWORD:

Yes, provided the the believer understand what Faith in Christ is. Faith is believing what God says and putting His Word into action.

Hi SPOKENWORD!

Where do you find that definition of faith in scripture? James 2:24 seems to suggest that faith and action are separate, each completing the other. Without action faith is dead (vs.17,26), incomplete (vs. 22) and useless (vs. 20). Without faith our works are like filthy rags (Is 64:6).

I think that’s where Catholics and Protestants part company on this issue. Protestant seem to understand that faith includes action while Catholic see faith and action as two sides of the same coin.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

mayra hart:

james said that a man is “justified by what he does” this passage alone should put an end to the contention that we are justified by faith alone. is it any wonder that some of the reformers attempted to put james into an appendix to the bible rather than in its historically accepted place? god bless

Man is justified through belief in God which translates to obedience to God. Of course, I lean towards Calvin’s view on predestination and election. God grants faith unto those whom He chooses. He seeks those who are lost, not the other way around. Faith is given by God for salvation. Man is incapable of saving himself. The disciples said at one point, “help our unbelief”. Abraham was justified by believing what God has promised, not by being a good man as the below passage shows.

Romans 4:2-5

1. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
2. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
3. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
4. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You can’t earn your salvation. You can’t work for it. You don’t own it to begin with. God by His grace bestows it upon us unsuspecting creatures.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi SPOKENWORD!

Where do you find that definition of faith in scripture? James 2:24 seems to suggest that faith and action are separate, each completing the other. Without action faith is dead (vs.17,26), incomplete (vs. 22) and useless (vs. 20). Without faith our works are like filthy rags (Is 64:6).

I think that’s where Catholics and Protestants part company on this issue. Protestant seem to understand that faith includes action while Catholic see faith and action as two sides of the same coin.

In Christ,
Nancy

Hi Nancy, I am in agreement with James and that is what I said. James 2 vs14 My brothers what good is it to profess faith without practicing it.?

 

[Malachi4U]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Nancy, I am in agreement with James and that is what I said. James 2 vs14 My brothers what good is it to profess faith without practicing it.?

GR8 verse,

 

[Randell]

dhgray:

One CAN be saved without faith.

There was the man who was lowered through the ceiling by his friends on a stretcher, Jesus saw their faith and he was healed.

The Centurian who told Jesus to just say the word and his daughter would be healed and Jesus said, “Because of your faith she is healed.”

If you do not have strong faith, make sure you have friends that do.

I dont think this means you have salvation though does it?

 

[StephiePea]

I believe anyone who claims to have faith would live like they had faith.

Faith without deeds is dead, the bible says so. It also says that the demons believe the one true God is real…and shutter. So just believing in God will not ensure your salvation.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Randell:

I dont think this means you have salvation though does it?

Hi Randell!

In biblical times people equated physical problems with spiritual problems. To be healed physically was to be healed spiritually. While they would not have worded it as such they would have seen being physically healed as a sign that one had been “saved”.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[cyprian]

Shibboleth:

The Christian is not saved by KNOWING that he has faith. By grace, God has given him faith in Jesus, and it is through that faith he is saved. For example, Abraham believed God (had faith, not just knew he had faith) and it was credited to him as righteousness (Romans 4:3). Yes, the Christian should bother whether he is doing Christ’s good works, even though he is saved by faith alone. It is God’s will and express command that the Christian should do good works, which the Holy Spirit works in him. Christ’s good works are indicators that the Christian has Christ’s faith and not something else. Christ’s good works will be the products of that faith, and those good works will be the public signs on which Christ will pronounce His public final judgment (Matt. 25).

Greetings!
How do we recieve grace, can we fall from grace, and how is it restored in it’s locus, so to speak regarding being saved by faith alone?
Peace and Love my brother

 

[roymckenzie]

I believe no having faith is not enough
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary Defines faith:
Pronunciation: ‘fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths [%between%](javascriptopWin(’/cgi-bin/audio.pl?faith002.wav=faiths’))/'fAths, *sometimes *'fAth]z/
Etymology: Middle English *feith, *from Old French *feid, foi, *from Latin *fides; *akin to Latin *fidere *to trust – more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY **b **(1) : fidelity to one’s promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
**2 a **(1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion **b **(1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
synonym see BELIEF
According to the definition the devil has faith (belief) in God. I do believe it is doctrine that the devil and God will never reconcile.

 

[roymckenzie]

ahimsaman72

I am not at all sure what your signature means?
“When you are a truly happy Christian, you are also a Buddhist. And vice versa.”

Thich Nhat Hanh in “Living Buddha, Living Christ”"
It seems like a fallacy.

 

[Shibboleth]

cyprian:

Greetings!
How do we recieve grace, can we fall from grace, and how is it restored in it’s locus, so to speak regarding being saved by faith alone?
Peace and Love my brother

Good question,

In terms of Lutheran belief…

The normal avenue that one receives Grace is by way of Baptism by Water in the Name of The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Some might say, well isn’t this a work. Yes and no… It is a work but it is not our work but the work of God and an active and living faith in the Believers involved. The faith does the work we are simply the conduit by which it is done.

Without faith the act of Baptism would have no effect… it would be an empty symbolic gesture.

Once one receives God’s Grace can it be lost and how? Well this really depends on what one means. In a strict Lutheran View – no we cannot loose God’s Grace we can however deny God and thereby cut ourselves off from God’s Grace. God desperately wishes for all of his Children to be saved so he constantly holds his Grace before us and never takes it away do to our sinful acts – he sent his only Son to forgive each and every one of our sins.

How do we come back into salvation?

Well, we cease to reject God and thereby we are no longer cut off from the Grace of God. Once we cease rejecting God the active faith in us will lead us to repent our sins but this is not due to ourselves but the active and living faith within us.