Is HAVING faith enough?

[Shibboleth]

Catholic4aReasn:

I didn’t quote a passage. I directed her to Leviticus for the works of the law. Help me understand what your comment has to do with mine.

In Christ,
Nancy

Absolutly nothing other than agreement. One of my soap boxes that I get upset about. It was not directed at you but at others that were not listening.

 

[Pax]

Love and faith are necessary works. and we are not saved by faith alone.

The belief that we are saved by faith alone and that it is not necessary to love God in order to be saved is contrary to both scripture and common sense.

We are told in 1Cor 8:3 that “…anyone that loves God is known by him.” If you are not known by God then you are not saved. This is given even greater emphasis in 1 Cor 16:22 where Paul tells us, “Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord.” In James 1:12 we are told that “…the crown of life is promised to those who love him [the Lord].” This same statement is repeated in James 2:5.

And the apostle, John, defines for us what love of God is when he says in 1Jn 5:3 “For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.” And Jesus, Himself, says in John 15:10 that “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.” Obviously, if we do not abide in God’s love we are not saved.

In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, "I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

This linkage is also made by Paul in Galatians 5:6 where we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." Likewise, Paul tells us the importance of love when he says, “So faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love”(1 Corinthians 13:13). Paul also says in Corinthians 13:1-13 that “IF I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing….Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. …So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Shibboleth:

Absolutly nothing other than agreement. One of my soap boxes that I get upset about. It was not directed at you but at others that were not listening.

Oh. Sorry.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Kinsman]

MariaG:

Council of Trent: Canon I - If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

This is a dubious statement. You could actually break it down to say this: “If any one says that man may be justified before God by works apart from the grace of God through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.” In other words, justification is achieved through meritorious works assisted by or through the grace of God through Jesus Christ: Faith plus grace assisted, meritorious works.

But Biblical, Pauline theology is not so dubious. Salvation/justification is through faith alone. Works on the part of man plays absolutely no part in the “process” (for lack of a better word) of divine salvation/justification. It is ALL of Christ, none of man. The ungodly man is reckoned righteous and justified before God the moment he puts his faith in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

“But to the one who DOES NOT WORK, but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness. Just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God RECKONS righteousness APART FROM WORKS” (Rom. 4:5-6)

Paul never deviates from this faith-based soteriology throughout his Epistles (nor do any of the N. T. writers, for that matter). Several things stand out in the above two verses:

1. Works play absolutely no part in one’s salvation/justification before God.

2. Through the exercise of personal faith in Christ God reckons one righteous.

3. Through personal faith God justifies the UNGODLY, not the godly.

4. Because it is “reckoned” on the part of God, justification is instantaneous and permanent.

“Now not for his sake only was it written, that it was reckoned to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be reckoned, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God” (Rom. 4:23-5:1-2).

Justification is not a process. The believer is *reckoned righteous *by God because of the One who was delivered up for our transgressions and raised because of our (the believer’s) justification. “Therefore have been justified…we have peace with God.”

 

[Kinsman]

Love and faith are necessary works. and we are not saved by faith alone.The belief that we are saved by faith alone and that it is not necessary to love God in order to be saved is contrary to both scripture and common sense.

Faith, according to the Bible is not works. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it (salvation) is a gift of God, not as a result of works, that no one should boast…" (Eph. 2:8-9).

Paul says we are saved *“by grace through faith…not as a result of works.” *Obviously Paul is not categorizing faith as a type of “work.” Faith is not a work, its is a response, just as love is. “We love because He first loved us” (1 Jn. 4:19).

 

[MariaG]

Kinsman,

It is only dubious in your mind not in Catholics mind and teaching.

Paul tells us: “For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality” (Rom. 2:6–11; cf. Gal. 6:6–10).

In the second century, the technical term “merit” was introduced as a synonym for the Greek word for “reward.” Thus the doctrine of merit and the doctrine of reward are the same teaching; they are simply presented under two different terms.

Protestants often misunderstand the Catholic teaching on merit, thinking that Catholics believe that one must do good works to come to God and be saved. This is exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches. The Council of Trent stressed: “[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).

The Catholic Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot* (Catechism* *of the Catholic Church *2007). The most merit humans can have is condign—when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus God’s grace and his promise form the foundation for all human merit (CCC 2008).

Virtually all of this is agreed to by Protestants, who recognize that, under the impetus of God’s grace, Christians do perform acts which are pleasing to God and which God has promised to reward, meaning that they fit the definition of merit. When faced with this, Protestants are forced to admit the truth of the Catholic position—although, contrary to Paul’s command (2 Tim. 2:14), they may still dispute the terminology.

Thus the Lutheran *Book of Concord *admits: “We are not putting forward an empty quibble about the term ‘reward.’ . . . We grant that eternal life is a reward because it is something that is owed—not because of our merits [in the strict sense] but because of the promise [of God]. We have shown above that justification is strictly a gift of God; it is a thing promised. To this gift the promise of eternal life has been added” (p. 162).

**The following passages illustrate what the Church Fathers had to say on the relationship between merit and grace.

**catholic.com/library/reward_and_merit.asp

Here is the rest of the tract that explains the Catholic position including the early Church Fathers. Your understanding of Catholic belief is not the same as Catholic teachings.

Up to this point, most of the people I have debated with have decided that Catholic Apologists just don’t explain what the church scholars really mean. They prefer to believe thier own interpretation and the interpretation of those who are not practicing Catholics. If that is what you choose to do, I can not stop you. But I can only pray that whether you choose to agree with Catholic theology or not, that you will accept what Catholics say are the interpretations of their own teachings. Hasn’t happened yet, maybe you’ll be the first?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

p.s.
Just a reminder that Catholics and Lutherans agreed to this definition. It is still the same Catholic teaching, just worded in a way that both parties find acceptable.

  by the Lutheran World Federation

and the Catholic Church

 Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[francisca]

Catholic4aReasn:

Francisca, “works of the law” don’t apply to us anymore. We aren’t under the law but under grace. “Works of the law” isn’t a reference to the 10 commandments (if I’m understanding you correctly that’s what you seem to be saying). “Works of the law” is a reference to the MOSAIC law, all the bajillions of rules and precepts that the Jews were subject to (see Leviticus).

In Christ,
Nancy

If you say that we are not under Mosaic law, then :

If one kills someone, does he violate the 4th command of the ten commandments, or doesn’t he ?

If you say we are under grace, then :

Why are there still condemnations in The Church? Grace does not condemn. Instead, Grace takes away punishments. But any rule that brings about any punishment is called law.

Even if Romans 3:28 say “works of Torah”, yet it applies to any law, especially because verse 3:39 asks

“Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also?”

This means

“Does God exclusive for Israel? Does He exclusive for catholic church ? Or doesn’t He God of the all people ?”

Surely Paul is talking about us following God by “rule” or by “faith”. There is no distiction between works of the law and our daily conduct. Because mosaic law talks about Israel daily conduct, so the church talks about our daily conduct and its “punishments”

Romans 4:4
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

This verse applies to all kinds of law. Even the secular world understand that if one “behave” he will not get punished. It’s not applies to only mosaic law but all kinds of binding “rules”.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

Kinsman:

Faith, according to the Bible is not works. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it (salvation) is a gift of God, not as a result of works, that no one should boast…" (Eph. 2:8-9).

Paul says we are saved *“by grace through faith…not as a result of works.” *Obviously Paul is not categorizing faith as a type of “work.” Faith is not a work, its is a response, just as love is. "We love because He first loved us" (1 Jn. 4:19).

Your understanding of Paul is incorrect. Paul is talking about the works of the Mosaic and Levitical laws as a means of salvation in and of themselves. Paul was the first Church theologian that corrected the Judaizers and their teaching that we were saved by the law and not by grace. Paul in the quotes you have used is speaking of our “initial” justification. Clearly, there are no works of any kind or type that can bring us into sonship with God because the atonement for the sin of Adam had to be of infinite quality. Only the sacrifice and work of Jesus could accomplish this.

It is against scripture, as I pointed out in the quotes from Revelation, and it is against common sense to say that love and faith are not works. Faith, that is believing and trusting God and in everything He has revealed to us, is something “we do” by the grace of God. Loving God and neighbor, by the supernatural gift of charity, is also something “we do” by the grace of God.

In order for you to be correct, scripture must contradict itself.

If you are correct then Paul could not say in Romans 11:20-21,
…They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. Moreover, Paul could not say in Romans 2:6-11,“For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.” Furthermore Paul could not tell us in Philippians 2:12,
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”

I could go on and on with many more verses but the point is clear. The book of Romans is not a simple book of scripture. Most people who read into Paul a “faith alone” teaching misunderstand what Paul is saying. One of the reasons for this is the tradition from which they are taught. I believe, however, that the biggest reason is because certain verses of Paul’s writings are taken in isolation from the rest of the NT. Nothing Paul says can in anyway contradict the words of Jesus Himself, and they cannot contradict the other apostles. Jesus never says anything like “faith alone” nor do the apostles. James is the only one that uses the term and he makes it clear that we are** not saved ** by faith alone.

 

[Pax]

Francisca,

When we read the book of Romans it is abundantly clear that we are no longer under the Mosaic and Levitical laws. This is also clear from the book of Acts and elsewhere. We are not, however, excused from the moral law. This is made quite clear in the verses I quoted in my prior post and is reiterated by Paul in the following verses:

Ephesians 5: 5-6
Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Galatians 5: 19-21
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6: 6-9
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.

Living under grace vs living under the law does not mean that we are now free to sin. Paul points this out in Rom 6:1-2 when he says, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” To think otherwise is to misunderstand the nature and purposes of God’s grace. God’s grace goes out in power and it enables us to do that which the law could not. It enables us to overcome sin. Read Romans carefully for this truth and you will see it come through clearly. The easiest way to know that this is what it means is to read John 8:32-36 where Jesus says,"and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. "They answered him, “We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to any one. How is it that you say, ‘You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who ***commits sin ** * is a slave to sin. The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Notice that Jesus is saying that if you sin, you are slave to sin. Paul says the same thing in his letters. Jesus also makes it clear that He is talking about freedom from “committing sin.” This is exactly what Paul is talking about as well. Read Romans carefully for these connections and you will see with new eyes and hear with new ears. God’s love, mercy, and grace are wondrous and powerful things. His gifts to us are marvelous and bring glory to Him, to the Father, and to the Holy Spirit.

 

[francisca]

Pax:

Galatians 6: 6-9
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.

Do not forget that the Spirit is given if one have faith. For us, we have received the Spirit when we are baptized. And by this Spirit we call God “Daddy” (Abba). Now this however, only happen, if one really put his trust and hope in God. It is possible that one has Holy Spirit by baptism but yet he never involve Him in things that he does. In this case The Spirit cannot help him, because the person closes his mind from listening to His guidance and consolations. In other words, he does not put his trust & hope in God anymore means he has no FAITH. Instead he tries hard to follow God by “rules and regulations” fearing punishments from the law.

It’t true that evil will reap evil, and we reap eternal life only from The Spirit.

Living under grace vs living under the law does not mean that we are now free to sin.

Correct. We are not free TO sin, but we are free FROM sins. See, that we sin by choice, but-- once sin has become mature and fruitful-- to be free from sin is Gods Grace .

The law, and our good works cannot free us from our sins anymore. Instead, sin use the law to accuse us even harder and harder. But Grace frees us from these accusations. And this freedom comes from The Spirit that heals and renews :

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Even James’s “justification by works” says that

James 2:24 “man is ALSO justified by works not by faith ONLY”.

This shows that FAITH has to be there. And James does not deny that Faith is the cause of “good works”, not the other way round.

Paul points this out in Rom 6:1-2 when he says, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?”

Exactly what I mean.

Read verse 6:18 also :

Romans 6:18
and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

This word “slave” means works. And it shows that works comes after one is freed from sin.

If you read 6:15-18

Notice that Jesus is saying that if you sin, you are slave to sin. Paul says the same thing in his letters. Jesus also makes it clear that He is talking about freedom from “committing sin.” This is exactly what Paul is talking about as well.

This is the point I’ve been trying to make.

If one is still slave to sin, God has to free him first. And it does not require “good works” from us because sinners does not have much of “good works” to offer. And especially because they are sinners, they need “justification”.

Romans 6:15-18 shows that before you “work out” anything, just make sure that you are serving the “correct Master”. And this “master” means “to whom” we put our hope and trust (in other words, to whom we have “faith”).

God bless.

 

[Pax]

Francisca,

I’m not quite sure how much we agree or disagree. There seems to be some common ground but it appears that we do diverge from one another.

I will address your point about James first because it is the easiest. Catholics do not make the claim that works come before faith. This idea is, in and of itself, problematic and I will try to explain why. Even an atheist can perform good works and make a correct moral choice such as never resorting to murder. Now even though the atheist may do many good works and may not ever commit serious sin, at least as his conscience guides him, he, nevertheless, cannot please God. In this sense, yes, justification must come first. Once this is accomplished, faith and works are inseparable.

We are saved by grace alone and it is a pure unearned gift from God. Once we have become adopted sons and daughters our faith and works become an integral part of that sonship and they are in us by God’s grace. While faith, hope, and love are within us by God’s grace, they are still things that we do. Our works are nothing less than the crowning of the works of the Father’s hands in our hearts. It is because of this that we can please God.

As adopted sons and daughters we do, indeed, cry “Abba”, Father! Our transgressions against the Father are to be viewed like those in the story of the “Prodigal Son.” We place ourselves outside of the Father’s house, and we must return and ask for forgiveness. Our sins are not overlooked or somehow passed over. If this were true there would be no sense of adoption or family and the story of the Prodigal Son would have no meaning.

Faith and works cannot be separated in a Christian. They are both a result of God’s grace. And as we have seen in the book of Revelation, faith and love are a type of work because they are things that “we do” by the grace of God. As it says in Isaiah, God’s “word goes out in power and it does not return to Him empty.”

There is one last thing I would like you to think about. You signed off with “God is condemn to death by religion. But He lives among His people who truely believe Him.” I have heard people use the word “religion” in a fashion similar to this and I would recommend against it. Whatever you might mean by the word it means something that it is quite important and basic to each of us. The most basic definition of the word religion is “the relationship of a man and his God/god.” This is not a negative term but one that is essential to all people everywhere.

 

[Kinsman]

MariaG:

Kinsman, It is only dubious in your mind not in Catholics mind and teaching.

I don’t think so, because I’ve talked with many RCs through the years. I even grew up in a neighborhood that was mainly RC, and those that took their religion serioiusly practiced it in the “hope” to one day have eternal life.

Protestants often misunderstand the Catholic teaching on merit, thinking that Catholics believe that one must do good works to come to God and be saved. This is exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches.

Really? Then why did come back at me quoting Paul saying:

“For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality” (Rom. 2:6–11; cf. Gal. 6:6–10).

What’s your point? It looks like you’re teaching just the opposite. Paul, in context, is not talking about how one gets saved this side of the cross, but a basic teaching on how God impartially judges in preparation for his presentation of justification by faith in Christ alone. He goes on to say in his defense for justification by faith, “There is none righteous, not even one…there is none who does good” (Rom. 3:10, 12). Going on he concludes that "*ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified AS A GIFT, by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus…for the demonstration of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus *(Rom. 3:21-26). This is Paul’s theology on salvation for all men, Jew and Gentile alike.

But let me ask you MariaG, do you have eternal life right now? If so, on what basis? If not, on what basis?

 

[Shibboleth]

In the famous statement that “It is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven” Jesus makes direct reference to how futile works really are as a means of justification.

A person came up to Jesus and asked, I have done all of these things what is it that I am missing? Jesus told the person to give away all of his possessions. Now, did Jesus really mean that if that person gave away all of their riches they would be saved by that action? NO…

If that person would have had faith than they would have had the ability to go and do such a thing, since he did not have that faith it was impossible for him to do the act. Jesus was saying that the person did not have “faith” in Jesus - the person had simply done good things. Jesus was saying show me your faith through your works - the person was not able to do that because he did not have faith.

“With God Everything is Possible.” With God a rich person may be able to enter the Gates of heaven… they need not actually give away all of their possessions.

“But I have followed God and given away all of my possessions.”
— “The last may be first and the first may be last.”

We are not justified through our works. A simple harlot may enter the gates of heaven before us… so might a rich man because they are with God, their faith may be greater than our own, and with God anything is possible.

 

[MariaG]

Kinsman,
You posted two questions/statements that are intertwined.

I don’t think so, because I’ve talked with many RCs through the years. I even grew up in a neighborhood that was mainly RC, and those that took their religion serioiusly practiced it in the “hope” to one day have eternal life.

But let me ask you MariaG, do you have eternal life right now? If so, on what basis? If not, on what basis?

The question you ask has nothing to do, from a Catholic perspective, with them believing they need to earn their way to heaven. It has everything to do with them believing that they are placing themselves in God’s rightful place as judge. Most Catholics would never say, even to qualify it by saying right at this moment, that they would have eternal life. Why? Because only God is the judge and **you are asking them to take God’s place, to even be God, by making a definitive statement to that effect **in Catholic thinking. They can tell you whether or not they are in a state of Grace or in a state of mortal sin. But saying they are going to heaven is not a statement that they would make.

As to me, I can say that yes I am going to have eternal life if I died right this instant. Why? Because I know that is how the question is asked in Protestant circles, (at least the ones I was in Nazarene, Assembly of God, and Evangelical). In fact, I gave a testimony in front of the Nazarene Church on how I know I am saved when in the Nazarene Church. But the longer I am in the Catholic Church, the more uncomfortable I am saying it since I DO believe I am making a sin of assumption and “telling” God what to do. It is a different mindset.

What can I say in full confidence without being uncomfortable at all from a Catholic Christian perspective? Christ died for me. He is my Lord and Savoir. His blood washes clean my sins. I love Him with all my heart and soul. And I know each time I take communion I am once again renewing my personal acceptance of Christ as my Lord and Savior and accepting Christ body, soul and divinity into myself.

I always tell people that there is sometimes what the Catholic Christian believes, and what they are supposed to believe. The two are not always the same. For example, in a Bible study a Catholic man shared a story with the Bible he was given in Confirmation. In it the teacher had written about “earning” their way to heaven through good works. This is not what the official teaching of the Catholic Church is, but is an example of the extremely poor teaching that has abounded in the last 40 years of the Catholic Church. **I am absolutely certain that there are Catholics who believe they must do good works to earn their way to heaven. ** But you would be hard pressed to find even one Catholic Christian on this board who thinks good works earn your way to heaven.

I hope this answers your question and has helped you to understand a Catholic Christians mindset when they cannot answer the question, “are you going to heaven?” whether or not you qualify it will the statement right now or not.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Pax]

Kinsman:

I don’t think so, because I’ve talked with many RCs through the years. I even grew up in a neighborhood that was mainly RC, and those that took their religion serioiusly practiced it in the “hope” to one day have eternal life…

Many times Protestants and Catholics misunderstand one another and pose questions that elicit answers that further the misunderstanding. The above quote is an example. While this statement might bother a Protestant, it would not bother a Catholic. If understood properly we could show that both sides might even agee with the statement. What is needed, however, is an appreciation of one another’s true mindsets, jargon, and intent. This is not always easy.

Getting back to the quote and some analysis, we can note that a Catholic would look at this idea of “practicing their faith” as merely following Jesus and listening to His voice which is given presence in the Holy Spirit, Scripture, and the Church. Catholicism is, indeed, a “way of life.” In the earliest days of the Church Christianity was known as “The Way.” The term “hope” is a scriptural term that every Christian should be able to embrace. Our hope is in Jesus and His death and resurrection. Our faith in God, and our belief in all that He has revealed to us, determines “The Way.” It is God’s total package of grace that determines the Catholic way of life. Non-Catholic Christians should be able to view grace and the supernatural gifts of faith, hope, and love in the same way. We trust and we hope in God for our salvation.

Only God knows our hearts and we do not presume upon His judgments. While we have a moral certitude that we will go to heaven, we do not have any false assurance. We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved; but for the Catholic, it is just as Paul instructed the Phillipians, “We are working out our salvation in fear and trembling.”

I would suggest that non-Catholics take a different approach to poorly catechised Catholics that indicate that they believe that they somehow work their way into heaven. Instead of telling them their Church teaching is wrong, tell them the truth; tell them that they need to go back and learn what their church really teaches. Poorly catechised Catholics have many peers within non-Catholic circles. Gallup polls consistently show that over 50% of Protestants do not know what the term “grace” means. George Gallup Sr. and Jr., both Evangelical Christians, have no axe to grind against non-Catholics. Their polls merely point out the poor state of affairs among all Christian bodies. We would do well to help teach and evangelize one another in all things holy and Christian, but we must do so honestly.

As Christians we are to be one, just as Jesus and the Father are one. We’ve had 1000 years of total unity followed by 1000 years of disunity, and it is now time for us to start the next 1000 years off with reunification. This can only be accomplished with love and truth. Compromise and the watering down will not do it. Each of us, however, can start with the one area of total agreement. We all love, worship, and obey the one mediator and cornerstone of our faith. Jesus is truly our Lord and Savior. Jesus is one in being with the Father and the Holy Spirit. His body is the Church. This body is to be one. We must fall in love with what unified the body of believers during the first 1000 years and we must detach ourselves from those things which have forced us apart during the last 1000 years.

 

[Kinsman]

Pax:

Your understanding of Paul is incorrect. Paul is talking about the works of the Mosaic and Levitical laws as a means of salvation in and of themselves. Paul was the first Church theologian that corrected the Judaizers and their teaching that we were saved by the law and not by grace. Paul in the quotes you have used is speaking of our “initial” justification. Clearly, there are no works of any kind or type that can bring us into sonship with God because the atonement for the sin of Adam had to be of infinite quality. Only the sacrifice and work of Jesus could accomplish this.

You completely avoided my basic point in response to what you wrote regarding faith and love as types of works. Regardless of your commentary on Mosaic and Levitical law (which I’ll confront shortly) the passage in Eph. 2:8-9 clearly demonstrates that Paul does not regard faith as a type of work of any sort. *“For by grace you have been saved through faith…not as a result of works” *Paul debunks your idea that faith can be characterized as a *“work.” *Faith is a personal response to the propositional message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, followed up by the regenerated one’s love response toward God and fellow believers because of God’s love toward us through the sacrificial death of His Son on our behalf.

It seems the latest ploy of RC apologists is to dismiss what Paul declares regarding faith vs. works for salvation by conveniently stating that Paul was referring to the Law of Moses. Therefore the dichotomy he presents between faith and works does not apply to us today. Pax, if a man could not be saved/justified by the works of the Law, then by default he could be saved/justified by no works at all - period!. In fact, often when Paul refers to “law” he is not talking about the Law of Moses specifically. The definite article in not always used and it is more accurately translated "law," i.e., the principle of law. For instance, in Rom. 3:21 he states that "now apart from law (the principle of) the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by THE Law (definite article) and THE prophets, even the righteousness of God THROUGH FAITH in Jesus Christ for ALL those who believe…"

Paul laid out for us the impartiality of God when it comes to divine judgment in Rom. 2:11-16. Whether for the Jew who was under the Law of Moses or the Gentile who was under “inherent law,” i.e, that which he responds to instinctively based on his conscience (heart). But Paul clearly teaches that “righteousness” cannot be obtained by any principle of law (works) whatsoever, Mosaic or inherent, either by Jew or Gentile. Righteousness is imputed to the sinner by God on the basis of faith alone, “even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” (Rom. 3:22). He concludes, "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law (no definite article, i.e., law principle). *Of works? NO, but by a law of FAITH *(i.e., the principle of). Continued…

 

[Pax]

Shibboleth:

In the famous statement that “It is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven” Jesus makes direct reference to how futile works really are as a means of justification…

…

This statement means something quite differenct to me. The plain reading of these verses tells me something about our life experience and salvation. This set of verses can also be tied to
1 Tim 6:9-12 where it says, " But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced their hearts with many pangs. But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.
Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Paul’s words to Timothy explain the problems with riches. We are easily persuaded by Satan to love the gifts and not the Giver. Riches make it difficult to appreciate and to “know” the Giver. Notice that Paul says to avoid the love of money and its consequences which include ruin and destruction. We must as Paul says, aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. We must fight the good fight of faith.

Grace is a free gift from God and it brings us into a state of justification. We cannot, however, remain inert or spurn God’s grace without the inevitable consequence of placing ourselves outside of the household. As adopted sons and daughters we must do exactly what Paul is telling Timothy. We must fight the good fight of faith. These are works of grace that “we must do.”

 

[Kinsman]

As for the RC term "initial justification," that’s RC theology, not Biblical. Certainly not Pauline. Divine justification throughout the N.T. Scriptures is based on what Christ did, once for all, never on what we did to get it or to maintain it. Like eternal life it is a GIFT by His grace (Rom. 3:24). There is absolutely no hint in Paul’s theology that divine justification must be retained by the recipient. That’s why it’s called a GIFT.

As to your comment regarding *“atonement for the sin of Adam,” *Christ took upon Himself ALL the sins of the world, not just Adam’s original sin (Jn. 1:29]. Yours and mine were included as well. And yes, that sacrifice was infinite in value. Sin is not the issue this side of the cross. The message is to believe and receive. Peter writes: “And He Himself bore our sins (plural) in His body on the cross…” (1 Pet. 2:24, compare, Gal. 1:4; Heb. 5:1,3; 1 Cor. 15:3; 1 Jn. 3:5). For this reason Rome’s teaching on “mortal” vs. “venial” sins is erroneous. This fundamental error then begets error until all of divine grace through Christ is distorted.

RC’ism distorts the clear teachings of Paul on faith as the basis for the free gifts of divine salvation, justification and eternal life revealed in the N.T. Scriptures. Reason being that if allowed to be understood Rome’s sacerdotal, sacramental religious system would serve no purpose and would consequently fall.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Kinsman:

This is a dubious statement. You could actually break it down to say this: “If any one says that man may be justified before God by works apart from the grace of God through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.” In other words, justification is achieved through meritorious works assisted by or through the grace of God through Jesus Christ: Faith plus grace assisted, meritorious works.

Your paraphrase is inaccurate respresentation of Catholic teaching. Simply put, we are SAVED by grace (Eph 2:6,8), we are JUSTIFIED by faith and works (James2: 24).

Salvation/justification is through faith alone.

This is in direct conflict with James 2 :24 which specifically states that we are NOT justified by faith alone.

Works on the part of man plays absolutely no part in the “process” (for lack of a better word) of divine salvation/justification.

According to James they do. Our faith is COMPLETED by our works (2:22).

It is ALL of Christ, none of man.

It is all made possible by God’s grace, but it requires our free response.

The ungodly man is reckoned righteous and justified before God the moment he puts his faith in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

There is nothing in scripture to support this idea.

“But to the one who DOES NOT WORK, but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness. Just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God RECKONS righteousness APART FROM WORKS”

(Rom. 4:5-6) *

All throughout Romans Paul is talking about WORKS OF THE LAW, which is entirely different from the work that complete our faith. God reckons righteousness apart from works of the law. Unfortunately, many misinterpret scripture by failing to draw this distinction. This same mistake is often made with Galatians.

**

1.

Works play absolutely no part in one’s salvation/justification before God. **

Correction: works of the LAW play no part in one’s justification.

**

2.

Through the exercise of personal faith in Christ God reckons one righteous. **

IN conjuction with James 2, rather than separating Romans from the rest of scripture, we can know that our works (Christ-like choices) complete our faith.

**

4.

Because it is “reckoned” on the part of God, justification is instantaneous and permanent. **

The word “reckon” does not imply instantaneousness or premanece.

"Now not for his sake only was it written, that it was reckoned to him, but for our sake also

, to whom it will be reckoned, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God" (Rom. 4:23-5:1-2). *

Again, we can’t forget that here, as in Galatians, Paul is not attempting to prove justification by faith alone without any sor of works, rather he’s attempting to show his readers that salvation is not to be found through observance of the LAW. He’s not speaking at all about works as James is using the term.

In Christ,
*Nancy *