Is Hell Eternal?

[Cristiano]

…I know it drives you people crazy to think that the Church doesn’t know EVERYTHING there is to know about God, but that’s the way it is. I know it also drives you crazy to think that God might be able to work in ways we cannot comprehend to extend His mercy even to a soul in Hell should He, as GOD so choose, but it is a possibility. Recognizing that exceptions might occasionally be made to the everlasting fires of hell for specific souls is not heretical.

I think that what drives some orthodox Catholics crazy is that a few people believe in a God that is made in their own image, like recognizing that occasionally God would change by contradicting himself. That is Idolatry, because the real God is unchangeable.

God constantly gives us opportunities to change our hearts until the very last moment. That is because of infinite mercy. He does not want to see us in hell. He is also infinitely just and accepting the fact that he gave us free will he will allow people to choose hell.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Notice here that Jesus is comparing eternal life with eternal punishment. If you believe that heaven will be eternal then you must believe that hell is eternal

Mat. 25:46, “These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

The punishment is eternal. That punishment is death. Rom.6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wicked are destroyed forever.

Revelation 20:10 “the lake of fire…they will be tormented forever and ever.”

Jude 1:7 “Sodom and Gomorrah…acted immorally…undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”

The quote from Jude 7 says that Sodom and Gomorrha will undergo the punishment of eternal fire. Well, are Sodom and Gomorrha burning today? No of coarse not. Rev.20:10 needs to be taken the same way. IOW they will burn until they are burnt up then the fire will go out.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Let’s see…
Originally Posted by The Bible

Matthew 25:41:
Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Let’s take this one with Jude
6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

You will see that Sodom and Gomorrha suffer “the vengeance of eternal fire.” Well are Sodom and Gomorrha burning today? No they are not. So this eternal fire must mean something else. What it means is the results of the fire of God’s judgement is eternal. The punishment for sin is death, eternal death. Rom.6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the judgement of God and were burned up. The same will happen to the wicked at the end of time.

Matthew 25:46:
And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

The everlasting punishment talked about here is death, not eternal life in torment.

Mark 9:46-47:
46 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire: 47 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.

The worm does not die nor is the fire of God’s judgement extinguished. IOW when God makes a judgement there is no force in heaven or earth that can alter that judgement.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9:
8 In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power:

Again, “eternal punishment in destruction” The wicked are destroyed forever.

John 3:36:
He that believeth in the Son hath life everlasting: but he that believeth not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Same, the wrath of God is eternal death.

Revelation 14:11-12:
11 He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath: and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 12 And the smoke of their torments, shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast and his image and whoever receiveth the character of his name.

Same, the smoke arises up out of sight. The end result is the same eternal death.

Revelation 20:9-10:
9 And there came down fire from God out of heaven and devoured them: and the devil, who seduced them, was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beast 10 And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This simply means until they are burned up.

Daniel 12:2:
And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always.

The KJV has for Dan.12:2
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Source: latinvulgate.com

Your positions are not supported by God’s words or the Church.

I’m not to worried about the church. God’s word however does support my position.

 

[meltzerboy]

Matthew 25:41:
Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Let’s take this one with Jude
6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

You will see that Sodom and Gomorrha suffer “the vengeance of eternal fire.” Well are Sodom and Gomorrha burning today? No they are not. So this eternal fire must mean something else. What it means is the results of the fire of God’s judgement is eternal. The punishment for sin is death, eternal death. Rom.6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the judgement of God and were burned up. The same will happen to the wicked at the end of time.

Matthew 25:46:
And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

The everlasting punishment talked about here is death, not eternal life in torment.

Mark 9:46-47:
46 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire: 47 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.

The worm does not die nor is the fire of God’s judgement extinguished. IOW when God makes a judgement there is no force in heaven or earth that can alter that judgement.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9:
8 In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power:

Again, “eternal punishment in destruction” The wicked are destroyed forever.

John 3:36:
He that believeth in the Son hath life everlasting: but he that believeth not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Same, the wrath of God is eternal death.

Revelation 14:11-12:
11 He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath: and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 12 And the smoke of their torments, shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast and his image and whoever receiveth the character of his name.

Same, the smoke arises up out of sight. The end result is the same eternal death.

Revelation 20:9-10:
9 And there came down fire from God out of heaven and devoured them: and the devil, who seduced them, was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beast 10 And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This simply means until they are burned up.

Daniel 12:2:
And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always.

The KJV has for Dan.12:2
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Source: latinvulgate.com

I’m not to worried about the church. God’s word however does support my position.

Almost all these verses seem to support your argument regarding the destruction of the souls of the wicked rather than torment. However, I’m having some trouble with two of them: from Revelation: “…where both the beast and the false prophet shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER,” as well as the verse from Daniel: “…and others unto reproach, to see it always.” Don’t these verses suggest everlasting torment and reproach of the soul rather than its destruction?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Almost all these verses seem to support your argument regarding the destruction of the souls of the wicked rather than torment. However, I’m having some trouble with two of them: from Revelation: “…where both the beast and the false prophet shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER,” as well as the verse from Daniel: “…and others unto reproach, to see it always.” Don’t these verses suggest everlasting torment and reproach of the soul rather than its destruction?

meltzerboy, I have been posting on two threads of the same topic and I’m getting a little mixed up as to what I posted and where. Well I guess it doesn’t matter. Anyway, as to your question. We need to understand what the bible means by “forever”. I have reposted what I said on Jude 6,7

You will see that Sodom and Gomorrha suffer “the vengeance of eternal fire.” Well are Sodom and Gomorrha burning today? No they are not. So this eternal fire must mean something else. What it means is the results of the fire of God’s judgement is eternal. The punishment for sin is death, eternal death. Rom.6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the judgement of God and were burned up. The same will happen to the wicked at the end of time.

Also Ex.21:6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Does this mean that the servant will be the masters servant down through the eons of time? No of coarse not what it means is the servant will be a servant untill he dies. It’s the same with Rev. 20. Take a look at what v. 9 says
Rev20
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and **devoured them. **10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It says that the fire devoured them. Now they will be tormented for a time. But I cannot see where a God that is love would be in the business of torturing His beloved creation throughout the ages of eternity. Can you?

I almost forgot about Dan. Well you see in my last post I put in the KJV of Dan.12
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is talking about the implimentation of God’s judgement upon the wicked. It says that the wicked shall rise up out of the dust to recieve this judgement. And when is that? Well, it’s after Jesus returns right? So, they are not writhing in torment now are they? Now it says that these rise “some to shame and everlasting contempt.” This says that the wicked that are burned up will be held in contemt. Makes no mention of living forever in torment.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Very interesting observations. I also wonder how such a loving G-d–who, in His mercy, created a given person–can then condemn that individual to an existence of eternal torment. I know I, a mere human, would feel compassion for such a person, with some possible exceptions, such as Hitler and those of his ilk, whom I cannot envision being saved no matter whether they were repentant at the end of their life or not. I have heard from some Catholics–who may not be knowledgeable on this issue–that Hell is thought of in Catholicism as a separation from G-d (the Jewish viewpoint) and THAT is the eternal torment rather than a literally physical torment. The latter “fire and brimstone” Hell is something, rightly or wrongly, I’ve also associated with old-time Evangelical preachers rather than Catholic clergy.

Its not about God turning heartless and casting away a soul whom at its beginning He created out of genuine and pure love. I always picture the painting on creation, where God stretches out His hand to man, and man (Adam) stretches out his hand to God, save for his finger that he seems reluctant to completely stretch out to God. Thats how we can end up in hell. Not because God gave up on us, because we didn’t fully accept what God has offered. That mere millimeters of difference is enough for us to come up short of the salvation God has brought to us. And its not God’s fault, its ours. Its because we have free will.

 

[meltzerboy]

Its not about God turning heartless and casting away a soul whom at its beginning He created out of genuine and pure love. I always picture the painting on creation, where God stretches out His hand to man, and man (Adam) stretches out his hand to God, save for his finger that he seems reluctant to completely stretch out to God. Thats how we can end up in hell. Not because God gave up on us, because we didn’t fully accept what God has offered. That mere millimeters of difference is enough for us to come up short of the salvation God has brought to us. And its not God’s fault, its ours. Its because we have free will.

I like that interpretation of the painting on creation, and a beautiful painting it is. Of course, G-d meets us more than halfway to make up for our shortcomings, which I assume you are taking into account. Perhaps you’re right: G-d has given us free will to decide our own destiny. Still, I always hope for a “deus ex machina” outcome.

 

[Third_Day]

=Richard Kastner;7718837]The punishment is eternal. That punishment is death. Rom.6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.The wicked are destroyed forever.

In Luke 16:19-31 was the rich man in hell? Why wasn’t he destroyed?

The quote from Jude 7 says that Sodom and Gomorrha will undergo the punishment of eternal fire. Well, are Sodom and Gomorrha burning today? No of coarse not

.
The inhabitants, not the physical city, are in hell. You don’t agree?

Rev.20:10 needs to be taken the same way. IOW they will burn until they are burnt up then the fire will go out.

But Rev 20:10 says the will be tormented forever and ever.It doesn’t say the torment will end.
Luke 12:48 says there are diffierent degrees of punishment in hell. If the wicked are annihilated, how is that possible?

 

[Thoughtfulone]

.
We won’t know everything about God until we get to heaven but He has revealed to us the eternity of hell

Why would God choose one ’ specific’ soul and leave others to suffer punishment?
If you want to believe that go ahead. I just hope that you aren’t thinking that you are that “specific” soul.

I don’t know why God would choose one specific soul. I don’t know everything about everything like God does. Maybe He never would do this. It’s kind of up to Him.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I think that what drives some orthodox Catholics crazy is that a few people believe in a God that is made in their own image, like recognizing that occasionally God would change by contradicting himself. That is Idolatry, because the real God is unchangeable.

God constantly gives us opportunities to change our hearts until the very last moment. That is because of infinite mercy. He does not want to see us in hell. He is also infinitely just and accepting the fact that he gave us free will he will allow people to choose hell.

An exception wouldn’t be a contradiction or a lie. Let’s say your Mom grounded you for a month, and two days before the end of the month you had a big dance, so she decided to let you go as long as you promised to do the dishes for the next two weeks. Would you say that she “lied” or contradicted herself, or would you say she made an exception because of unusual circumstances?

 

[meltzerboy]

meltzerboy, I have been posting on two threads of the same topic and I’m getting a little mixed up as to what I posted and where. Well I guess it doesn’t matter. Anyway, as to your question. We need to understand what the bible means by “forever”. I have reposted what I said on Jude 6,7

You will see that Sodom and Gomorrha suffer “the vengeance of eternal fire.” Well are Sodom and Gomorrha burning today? No they are not. So this eternal fire must mean something else. What it means is the results of the fire of God’s judgement is eternal. The punishment for sin is death, eternal death. Rom.6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the judgement of God and were burned up. The same will happen to the wicked at the end of time.

Also Ex.21:6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Does this mean that the servant will be the masters servant down through the eons of time? No of coarse not what it means is the servant will be a servant untill he dies. It’s the same with Rev. 20. Take a look at what v. 9 says
Rev20
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and **devoured them. **10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It says that the fire devoured them. Now they will be tormented for a time. But I cannot see where a God that is love would be in the business of torturing His beloved creation throughout the ages of eternity. Can you?

I almost forgot about Dan. Well you see in my last post I put in the KJV of Dan.12
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is talking about the implimentation of God’s judgement upon the wicked. It says that the wicked shall rise up out of the dust to recieve this judgement. And when is that? Well, it’s after Jesus returns right? So, they are not writhing in torment now are they? Now it says that these rise “some to shame and everlasting contempt.” This says that the wicked that are burned up will be held in contemt. Makes no mention of living forever in torment.

I got it now, and I agree with you about a loving G-d’s not torturing His creation throughout eternity, as I think I said in my original post. (Now all we disagree about is the issue of Jesus!)

 

[Anna_Scott]

meltzerboy, I have been posting on two threads of the same topic and I’m getting a little mixed up as to what I posted and where. Well I guess it doesn’t matter. Anyway, as to your question. We need to understand what the bible means by “forever”. I have reposted what I said on Jude 6,7

You will see that Sodom and Gomorrha suffer “the vengeance of eternal fire.” Well are Sodom and Gomorrha burning today? No they are not. So this eternal fire must mean something else. What it means is the results of the fire of God’s judgement is eternal. The punishment for sin is death, eternal death. Rom.6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the judgement of God and were burned up. The same will happen to the wicked at the end of time.

Also Ex.21:6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Does this mean that the servant will be the masters servant down through the eons of time? No of coarse not what it means is the servant will be a servant untill he dies. It’s the same with Rev. 20. Take a look at what v. 9 says
Rev20
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and **devoured them. **10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It says that the fire devoured them. Now they will be tormented for a time. But I cannot see where a God that is love would be in the business of torturing His beloved creation throughout the ages of eternity. Can you?

I almost forgot about Dan. Well you see in my last post I put in the KJV of Dan.12
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is talking about the implimentation of God’s judgement upon the wicked. It says that the wicked shall rise up out of the dust to recieve this judgement. And when is that? Well, it’s after Jesus returns right? So, they are not writhing in torment now are they? Now it says that these rise “some to shame and everlasting contempt.” This says that the wicked that are burned up will be held in contemt. Makes no mention of living forever in torment.

Richard Kastner,

I’ve been posting on another thread about Hell too. I’m trying to consider Scripture as a whole and I find a strong case for annihilation. The idea of God imposing eternal torment for actions in this “blink” in eternity which is our time on earth is beyond what I can comprehend. The idea of eternal unimaginable torment for those who fall short, has caused me at times to wish I had never been born. It is too much and such an idea causes despair. There were periods in history when people were driven to such despair they committed suicide.

When you really think about anyone, and especially the people we love, meeting such a fate; it is just too much. I’ve gone through periods of depression over the teachings on Hell. I grew up in the Baptist Church, and it was all about Hell and fear and guilt and absolute terror thinking about what God would do to those who are not “saved.”

We are told not to despair, but if we truly love others as ourselves; the thought of people spending eternity in torment is sickening. It can eat away at you, until you wish you had never been born. Why would God create mankind, knowing most of his creation will spend eternity in torment? This makes no sense if we claim that God is merciful.

On the other “Hell” thread, I posted scriptures and quotes. Here, I’m just letting out my feelings about this topic. I doubt any of you will give me an answer I haven’t heard before, or an answer that will take away the anguish I feel about the subject. I’ve read numerous Catholics posts that say we choose hell, as if God has nothing to do with it–yet He is God and there is nothing He cannot do and nothing is beyond His control. If God wanted to reach into hell and pull people out, He has the power to do that.

Mankind is not equally exposed to the Gospel. Not all are blessed with a “Damascus Road” experience like Paul.

I think I need to get off of these “Hell” threads for awhile, because the topic is seriously affecting my state of mind. It’s one thing to wish you were dead, but when you begin to wish you were never born–that is utter despair-that is dangerous despair.

Anna

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner,

I’ve been posting on another thread about Hell too. I’m trying to consider Scripture as a whole and I find a strong case for annihilation. The idea of God imposing eternal torment for actions in this “blink” in eternity which is our time on earth is beyond what I can comprehend. The idea of eternal unimaginable torment for those who fall short, has caused me at times to wish I had never been born. It is too much and such an idea causes despair. There were periods in history when people were driven to such despair they committed suicide.

When you really think about anyone, and especially the people we love, meeting such a fate; it is just too much. I’ve gone through periods of depression over the teachings on Hell. I grew up in the Baptist Church, and it was all about Hell and fear and guilt and absolute terror thinking about what God would do to those who are not “saved.”

We are told not to despair, but if we truly love others as ourselves; the thought of people spending eternity in torment is sickening. It can eat away at you, until you wish you had never been born. Why would God create mankind, knowing most of his creation will spend eternity in torment? This makes no sense if we claim that God is merciful.

On the other “Hell” thread, I posted scriptures and quotes. Here, I’m just letting out my feelings about this topic. I doubt any of you will give me an answer I haven’t heard before, or an answer that will take away the anguish I feel about the subject. I’ve read numerous Catholics posts that say we choose hell, as if God has nothing to do with it–yet He is God and there is nothing He cannot do and nothing is beyond His control. If God wanted to reach into hell and pull people out, He has the power to do that.

Mankind is not equally exposed to the Gospel. Not all are blessed with a “Damascus Road” experience like Paul.

I think I need to get off of these “Hell” threads for awhile, because the topic is seriously affecting my state of mind. It’s one thing to wish you were dead, but when you begin to wish you were never born–that is utter despair-that is dangerous despair.

Anna

Hi Anna

When you begin to realise that the actuality of what the bible says concerning the state of the dead and what most of Christianity has taught over the years is really quite diferrent. That there really is not a place where the wicked souls go immediately after they die in order for a vengeful God to carry out His tormenting designs throughout the endless ages of eternity. We can begin to vindicate God in our own minds and see that He really is a just God and has done everything in His power to save each and every soul. Anna, take a look at a couple of bible vs.

Rev.14:7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Now I know that this is talking primarily about God’s judgment of mankind. But read it closely, could this not also be talking about man’s judgement of God. It says in Heb. that the angels of God are watching what is going on here on earth very carefully to see how God handles this sin problem.

Let’s look at another

Rev.20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Now this says that judgement was given to the saints in heaven and that this judgement was given when the books were opened. Now do you really think that God is going to hand over the decision as to what will happen to the wicked souls to their fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters? No of coarse He isn’t. Well, what is this judgement all about then. This is a thousand year period in heaven when all the saints that have accepted Jesus will have a chance to look over the books and see that God really has done everything that He possibly could to get every soul into heaven. In other words, it will be man judging God. So Anna, we may not understand all that God does, but the thing we have to remember is that everything He has done is because He loves us and we need to tust that the things He does to us and for us in the future will be because He loves us. The key is not to become discouraged, especially since that discouagement may be based on faulty information.

 

[GaryTaylor]

My its good thing there are those who actually read the Holy Scripture.

Matt 10:28 Rather be afraid of the one who came to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matt 11:24 I tell you it would more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgement than for you.

Matt 13:50 The angels will seperate the wicked from the rightous, and throw them [wicked] into the fiery furnace.

Matt 18:9 It would be better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matt 23:33 How will you escape being condemned to hell?

And there are another dozen or so verse’s just in Matthew alone where Christ speaks on hell and eternal punishment. These are just the shorter ones.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Richard_Kastner]

My its good thing there are those who actually read the Holy Scripture.

I read the scriptures Gary.

Matt 10:28 Rather be afraid of the one who came to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matt 11:24 I tell you it would more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgement than for you.

Matt 13:50 The angels will seperate the wicked from the rightous, and throw them [wicked] into the fiery furnace.

Matt 18:9 It would be better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matt 23:33 How will you escape being condemned to hell?

And there are another dozen or so verse’s just in Matthew alone where Christ speaks on hell and eternal punishment. These are just the shorter ones.

God Bless, Gary

I never refuted the idea that hellfire would one day consume the wicked. Just that that fire is burning now nor does it last for all eternity.

 

[Cristiano]

An exception wouldn’t be a contradiction or a lie. Let’s say your Mom grounded you for a month, and two days before the end of the month you had a big dance, so she decided to let you go as long as you promised to do the dishes for the next two weeks. Would you say that she “lied” or contradicted herself, or would you say she made an exception because of unusual circumstances?

I would say that she changed her mind because of circumstances and as a consequence she contradicted her initial statement. God is omniscient and he cannot change is mind because he already knows all the different circumstances. Again if God’s mind changes then it is a created mind and so it cannot be God’s mind.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Actually it originates from a close reading of scripture.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I would say that she changed her mind because of circumstances and as a consequence she contradicted her initial statement. God is omniscient and he cannot change is mind because he already knows all the different circumstances. Again if God’s mind changes then it is a created mind and so it cannot be God’s mind.

I don’t see it as a changing of the mind, but as an exception. Obviously, there would be no need for the scriptures or Jesus to talk about these exceptions if they are extremely rare. That doesn’t make God a liar or scripture false. Jesus had 3 years to tell us everything we NEED to know…somehow I think this would fall way down on the list.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Anna

When you begin to realise that the actuality of what the bible says concerning the state of the dead and what most of Christianity has taught over the years is really quite diferrent. That there really is not a place where the wicked souls go immediately after they die in order for a vengeful God to carry out His tormenting designs throughout the endless ages of eternity. We can begin to vindicate God in our own minds and see that He really is a just God and has done everything in His power to save each and every soul. Anna, take a look at a couple of bible vs.

Rev.14:7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Now I know that this is talking primarily about God’s judgment of mankind. But read it closely, could this not also be talking about man’s judgement of God. It says in Heb. that t**he angels of God are watching what is going on here on earth very carefully to see how God handles this sin problem. **

Let’s look at another

Rev.20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Now this says that judgement was given to the saints in heaven and that this judgement was given when the books were opened. Now do you really think that God is going to hand over the decision as to what will happen to the wicked souls to their fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters? No of coarse He isn’t. Well, what is this judgement all about then. This is a thousand year period in heaven when all the saints that have accepted Jesus will have a chance to look over the books and see that God really has done everything that He possibly could to get every soul into heaven. In other words, it will be man judging God. So Anna, we may not understand all that God does, but the thing we have to remember is that everything He has done is because He loves us and we need to tust that the things He does to us and for us in the future will be because He loves us. The key is not to become discouraged, especially since that discouagement may be based on faulty information.

Richard Kastner,

I really wasn’t going to come back to these threads on Hell, but I did read your response to my post; and we are definitely not on the same page.

I agree that God wants all to be saved. Christ said, “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32) He didn’t say that all people will answer that call and follow Him.

My questions involve whether or not Hell is “eternal torment” or “annihilation”; and my despair lies in the thought of loved ones spending an eternity in torment. Even Paul expressed anguish over the fate of others:

Romans 9: 1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.

However----I would never presume to judge God, only to understand what is true about Him and His mercy and the fate of the lost. Let there be no mistake regarding my beliefs about the Sovereignty of God. Man has no right to judge God, nor do the angels.

Romans 9: 14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Holy Scripture is very clear that Christ will judge mankind: 2 Timothy 4: 1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: . . . .

Do not mistake my moments of despair regarding “Hell” as a moment of weakness or vulnerability when it comes to the Gospel of Christ.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

(name removed by moderator),

I realized something was terribly wrong after reading Richard Kastner’s last post to me. See my response in post #62.

I’ve worked through my religious journey very honestly and openly on these forums over the past two years. Revealing my deepest concerns does not mean I am weak or that I do not know Christ. Being so open sometimes is interpreted by some as a time to pounce.

I appreciate the heads up. Thanks for being a good Catholic friend.
Anna