Is Hell Eternal?

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner,

I really wasn’t going to come back to these threads on Hell, but I did read your response to my post; and we are definitely not on the same page.

I agree that God wants all to be saved. Christ said, “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32) He didn’t say that all people will answer that call and follow Him.

My questions involve whether or not Hell is “eternal torment” or “annihilation”; and my despair lies in the thought of loved ones spending an eternity in torment. Even Paul expressed anguish over the fate of others:

Romans 9: 1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.

However----I would never presume to judge God, only to understand what is true about Him and His mercy and the fate of the lost. Let there be no mistake regarding my beliefs about the Sovereignty of God. Man has no right to judge God, nor do the angels.

Romans 9: 14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Holy Scripture is very clear that Christ will judge mankind: 2 Timothy 4: 1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: . . . .

Do not mistake my moments of despair regarding “Hell” as a moment of weakness or vulnerability when it comes to the Gospel of Christ.

Peace,
Anna

I did not mistake your moment of despair as a moment of weakness or vulnerability. Nor did I see it as an opportunity to “pounce”. I was merely expounding on what I see written in scripture. You obviously don’t agree. So, Peace.

 

[Third_Day]

=Anna Scott;7720132]. I doubt any of you will give me an answer I haven’t heard before, or an answer that will take away the anguish I feel about the subject. I’ve read numerous Catholics posts that say we choose hell, as if God has nothing to do with it–yet He is God and there is nothing He cannot do and nothing is beyond His control. If God wanted to reach into hell and pull people out, He has the power to do that.

God gave us the gift of a free will. God doesn’t interfer with it. God gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved.

Mankind is not equally exposed to the Gospel. Not all are blessed with a “Damascus Road” experience like Paul.

Not every one who has never heard the gospel will be in hell. Those who have never heard the gospel will be judged according to the natural law that Paul writes about in Romans 2:14-16. Some will be excused for their sins out of ignorance through no fault of their own. Another reason why God created purgatory.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I did not mistake your moment of despair as a moment of weakness or vulnerability. Nor did I see it as an opportunity to “pounce”. I was merely expounding on what I see written in scripture. You obviously don’t agree. So, Peace.

Richard,
Yes, we do disagree, as we both have the right to do.

Peace to you as well,
Anna

 

[Cristiano]

I don’t see it as a changing of the mind, but as an exception. Obviously, there would be no need for the scriptures or Jesus to talk about these exceptions if they are extremely rare. That doesn’t make God a liar or scripture false. Jesus had 3 years to tell us everything we NEED to know…somehow I think this would fall way down on the list.

So are you saying that the under some specific circumstances (even if extremely rare) the Church could not be infallible, or that under specific circumstances (even if extremely rare) the gates of hell could prevail?

 

[GaryTaylor]

“The biblical arguments [for annihilationism] are to my mind flimsy special pleading, and the feelings that make people want conditionalism to be true seem to me to reflect, not superior spiritual sensitivity, but secular sentimentalism…”

James Packer

The proposed thinking has been presented since at least 1990.

There are many passages in the Bible that appear to describe punishment in Hell as lasting for all eternity.

Traditionalists interpret these passages literally. They view the inmates’ physical punishment as unceasing, continuous, severe, and infinite in duration.

Annihilationists teach that punishment is time-limited because the individuals’ eventual state is to be exterminated without a trace of their existence remaining, forever. Their final punishment – to be totally exterminated – lasts forever.

The evidence to support Annihilationists doesn’t exist. Could the Traditionalist be wrong in literal interpretation? If the basis was completely on scripture then the debate would be closer. Nonetheless the mystics and seers who have come along over the centuries are also very real. Most recent the case of fatima and the “vision of hell” wouldn’t support a Annihilationists perspective. Obviously nor does it coincide with 2000-years of Church teaching.

So then which would should we go with?

 

[Thoughtfulone]

So are you saying that the under some specific circumstances (even if extremely rare) the Church could not be infallible, or that under specific circumstances (even if extremely rare) the gates of hell could prevail?

Ugh. No. The Church says Hell is eternal. It never says that God, in His wisdom and mercy, cannot ever pull an individual soul out. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Cristiano]

Ugh. No. The Church says Hell is eternal. It never says that God, in His wisdom and mercy, cannot ever pull an individual soul out. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

God gave to the Church the power to speak for him. The Church says that hell is eternal and the Bible says so too. That is an implication that God says that hell is eternal that it means that it is exclusive of letting people out of hell. The Church does not say what God can and cannot do, the Church simply states what God’s will is.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

God gave to the Church the power to speak for him. The Church says that hell is eternal and the Bible says so too. That is an implication that God says that hell is eternal that it means that it is exclusive of letting people out of hell. The Church does not say what God can and cannot do, the Church simply states what God’s will is.

You are being very rigid in your interpretation. In general, yes, hell is eternal. But everything is not known to me, nor is everything known to the Church. There very well may be a circumstance in which God might see fit to release a soul from hell and this does not make God a liar unless you are a child and see things only in black and white.

 

[Cristiano]

You are being very rigid in your interpretation. In general, yes, hell is eternal. But everything is not known to me, nor is everything known to the Church. There very well may be a circumstance in which God might see fit to release a soul from hell and this does not make God a liar unless you are a child and see things only in black and white.

You are correct that I am very rigid in accepting the absolutes that are given through he Bible and through the Church. A lot of things that come from God are just black and white and there is nothing childish accepting them for what they are, if not it would be human relativism. I understand that we are not going to agree on this topic and you wish that people in hell still have a chance of going to heaven. I also understand your wish because you appear to be a caring person and you cannot imagine how someone would always prefer hell to heaven. This is not an indication of you being “heretical” but it is an indication of you loving God to the point that the alternative does not make sense to you.

 

[Cristiano]

You are being very rigid in your interpretation. In general, yes, hell is eternal. But everything is not known to me, nor is everything known to the Church. There very well may be a circumstance in which God might see fit to release a soul from hell and this does not make God a liar unless you are a child and see things only in black and white.

You are correct that I am very rigid in accepting the absolutes that are given through the Bible and through the Church. A lot of things that come from God are just black and white and there is nothing childish accepting them for what they are, if not it would be human relativism. I understand that we are not going to agree on this topic and you wish that people in hell still have a chance of going to heaven. I also understand your wish because you appear to be a caring person and you cannot imagine how someone would always prefer hell to heaven. This is not an indication of you being “heretical” but it is an indication of you loving God to the point that the alternative does not make sense to you.

 

[Anna_Scott]

God gave us the gift of a free will. God doesn’t interfer with it. God gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved.

Not every one who has never heard the gospel will be in hell. Those who have never heard the gospel will be judged according to the natural law that Paul writes about in Romans 2:14-16. Some will be excused for their sins out of ignorance through no fault of their own. Another reason why God created purgatory.

Third Day,

What if a person has heard the Gospel, but does not understand it and dies having heard it? What happens to that soul?

Anna

 

[Cristiano]

Third Day,

What if a person has heard the Gospel, but does not understand it and dies having heard it? What happens to that soul?

Anna

Same thing. If a person hears the Gospel and because of internal or external limitations he is not capable of understanding it, then he is not trying to go against God’s will. I would assume that the chances for heaven are good.

 

[GEddie]

I, for one, have NO issues with the eternity of Hell.

I DO have difficulty understanding how such a flimsy creature as a human being could commit enough evil to earn eternal Hell.

So it seems to me that most everybody could at least get Purgatory, if they have the slightest true repentance as their eyes roll back; to go to Hell, you have to go out of your way to hate GOD and never repent.

But the kicker is: both Heaven and Hell are timeless; so whatever choice you made in human life is fixed. You cannot fall from Heaven, you cannot be retrieved from Hell; that’s just the nature of it.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA

 

[Thoughtfulone]

You are correct that I am very rigid in accepting the absolutes that are given through the Bible and through the Church. A lot of things that come from God are just black and white and there is nothing childish accepting them for what they are, if not it would be human relativism. I understand that we are not going to agree on this topic and you wish that people in hell still have a chance of going to heaven. I also understand your wish because you appear to be a caring person and you cannot imagine how someone would always prefer hell to heaven. This is not an indication of you being “heretical” but it is an indication of you loving God to the point that the alternative does not make sense to you.

Thank you so much for such a kind, charitable and loving response. I worry a lot about this issue as you might be able to see, and eternity in hell for myself or my loved ones is unimaginable. “Choosing” hell also baffles me, because I just can’t imagine anyone doing that. Sure, I can see how someone might be selfish and not go to mass or have pre-marital sex, but how this equates to an eternal and willful rejection of God doesn’t really make sense to me. Thanks again or your kindness and I apologize for getting snappish with you in my frustration

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I, for one, have NO issues with the eternity of Hell.

I DO have difficulty understanding how such a flimsy creature as a human being could commit enough evil to earn eternal Hell.

So it seems to me that most everybody could at least get Purgatory, if they have the slightest true repentance as their eyes roll back; to go to Hell, you have to go out of your way to hate GOD and never repent.

But the kicker is: both Heaven and Hell are timeless; so whatever choice you made in human life is fixed. You cannot fall from Heaven, you cannot be retrieved from Hell; that’s just the nature of it.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA

I agree that it may not be so easy to condemn oneself to hell, at least, I hope so. I feel that maybe in an effort to enumerate and explain to us exactly what constitutes grave matter and the idea that one mortal sin makes one hell-bound, the Church ends up basically giving us a laundry list of things that, if you commit them, you can say goodbye to heaven and you better pack some sunscreen. It’s scary, and for me, it can cause a lot of worry and despair. I know the Church is just trying to be clear for simplicity’s sake, but it’s just a bit frightening. We have to remember to trust in God’s mercy and pray that we will all have the grace of final repentance, no matter who we are or what state our souls are in when we die.

 

[Cristiano]

Thank you so much for such a kind, charitable and loving response. I worry a lot about this issue as you might be able to see, and eternity in hell for myself or my loved ones is unimaginable. “Choosing” hell also baffles me, because I just can’t imagine anyone doing that. Sure, I can see how someone might be selfish and not go to mass or have pre-marital sex, but how this equates to an eternal and willful rejection of God doesn’t really make sense to me. Thanks again or your kindness and I apologize for getting snappish with you in my frustration

I did not perceive you as being snappy, you just sounded frustrated. It happens to all of us. My personal belief is that very few people are in hell. I believe that some are there because the Bible says so and even only one is too many people. However, I also believe that because of His infinite mercy the vast majority of people will repent before their death.

 

[WTSherman]

My personal belief is that God is perfectly capable of understanding how much punishment I require. I think He rarely interferes in the evil conduct of the Earth!

Men are left to their own affairs I think, except for the occasional miracle this world seems to be left for men to govern.

 

[Anna_Scott]

God gave us the gift of a free will. God doesn’t interfer with it. God gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved.

Not every one who has never heard the gospel will be in hell. Those who have never heard the gospel will be judged according to the natural law that Paul writes about in Romans 2:14-16. Some will be excused for their sins out of ignorance through no fault of their own. Another reason why God created purgatory.

Third Day,

What if a person has heard the Gospel, but does not understand it and dies having heard it? What happens to that soul?

Anna

Same thing. If a person hears the Gospel and because of internal or external limitations he is not capable of understanding it, then he is not trying to go against God’s will. I would assume that the chances for heaven are good.

Cristiano,

Now we’re getting into a rather complicated area. How does one define “not capable” when it comes to hearing and understanding the Gospel?

My son has heard the Gospel; but has never been Baptized. Sadly, most of his exposure to Christianity was in the Baptist Church, which I should have left long before I did. The Baptist Church did a lot of damage, and my son turned away from organized religion-eventually deciding Jesus was a good man with good parables, but not the Son of God. We’ve had many long talks and this is tearing me apart. He seems, at this point, “incapable” of understanding the fact that Christ is the Son of God.

You would have to be in the “Baptist” culture to understand the damage that can be done. It’s all about Hell and avoiding Hell to an extent that is nothing short of narcissistic. Creationism is often taught in a fanatical way, causing children to believe they must choose between science and Christ–and if you question a literal translation of the creation story in Genesis; you are told you have a faith issue. When I spoke with one of the ministers about being told I had a faith issue for not accepting Genesis as a literal account of creation; he told me evolution was “racist.” Many Baptists will also say that Catholics are not Christians, or anyone else who doesn’t pray the “sinner’s prayer” just right.

When my son got to college, there were fundamentalists who came to the campus to preach. Again, it was all about Hell. Then he met the son of the Financial Minister at one of the large non-denominational churches in our area–which did even more damage. The family basically got rich from the Church and the Financial Minister’s son treated his girlfriend with such disrespect, while giving that tragic “holier than thou” impression. My son was appalled. He finally said he could not find the teachings of Christ in the Church or in most who called themselves Christians.

That’s only the tip of the iceberg regarding my son’s encounters with Christians. It is so very sad when Christians drive people away from Christianity.

So, is my son, at this point, bound for eternal torment? Is he, at this point, “capable” of understanding the Gospel? I pray for him everyday. I pray that Christ will come to him. I pray that Christ will call him and that my son will answer His call and follow Him.

If it is as you said, that those who do not hear the Gospel during their life on earth will go to purgatory instead of Hell; then they may be the lucky ones. How sad is that?

Anna

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I did not perceive you as being snappy, you just sounded frustrated. It happens to all of us. My personal belief is that very few people are in hell. I believe that some are there because the Bible says so and even only one is too many people. However, I also believe that because of His infinite mercy the vast majority of people will repent before their death.

Thank you for understanding I do hope that few people are in hell and that we all get a chance for true contrition. I struggle with this because my Dad was killed in a car accident rather suddenly when I was 16 and we weren’t really a family that attended confession regularly, although we went to mass on Sundays. I worry a lot about him and his soul and the souls of others who don’t necessarily see death coming.

I also really have a hard time imagining being happy in heaven when my loved ones are suffering in hell, and I have a hard time imagining that God could be happy with His children in hell. I know that I can’t stand to see my son suffer for even a moment, and even if he hated me, it would tear me up.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thank you for understanding I do hope that few people are in hell and that we all get a chance for true contrition. I struggle with this because my Dad was killed in a car accident rather suddenly when I was 16 and we weren’t really a family that attended confession regularly, although we went to mass on Sundays. I worry a lot about him and his soul and the souls of others who don’t necessarily see death coming.

I also really have a hard time imagining being happy in heaven when my loved ones are suffering in hell, and I have a hard time imagining that God could be happy with His children in hell. I know that I can’t stand to see my son suffer for even a moment, and even if he hated me, it would tear me up.

Thoughtfulone,

I think the discussion is finally dealing with what eternal torment means when we really allow ourselves to think about it in regards to our loved ones and even ourselves.

I wrote earlier about my son too. If I actually make it to heaven and my son and other loved ones do not, my heaven would be Hell for me. Even knowing any of mankind were spending an eternity in unimaginable torment is enough to bring anyone who feels the slightest bit of love for others to a state of despair.

I think most are familiar with Jonathan Edwards’ “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” Though Edwards was well educated and quite accomplished in many areas, the effects of his “fanatical” revivals and horrifying stories about Hell still stand out when his name is spoken. Edwards won many converts, but also led a few to such despair in fearing certain damnation, they committed suicide. Edwards blamed the suicides on Satan. If I recall correctly, this happened in the early 1700’s. You can Google it and find many articles about Edwards and the suicides that came as a result of his revivals.

It’s one thing to state the position of the CC and Protestants. It is quite another to allow yourself to truly imagine eternal torment. A person could die at age 16, having rejected the Gospel, and then spend eternity in torment? Sixteen years of life warrants eternal torment? When I think of God as loving and merciful, it is unthinkable that such a thing could happen. Really. Think about this. I know that God is far more merciful than I am, so how can this be?

I’m not convinced that the beliefs about Hell are completely worked out, even in the Catholic Church. For centuries, the ECF’s spoke of Hell as real fire, eternal flames.

When describing Hell, Pope John Paul II said, “Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language.”

Then Pope Benedict XVI said that Hell is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful.

According to the Article in The Sunday Tiimes, "Vatican officials said that the Pope — who is also the Bishop of Rome — had been speaking in “straightfoward” language “like a parish priest”. He had wanted to reinforce the new Catholic catechism, which holds that Hell is a “state of eternal separation from God”, to be understood “symbolically rather than physically”.

Link: timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1572646.ece

As a non-Catholic looking in, it sounds like Pope Benedict XVI stated his belief that Hell is a place where sinners really do burn, because that is what he believes. Then, it’s as if Vatican “officials” nudged him on the shoulder and said–Excuse me, Your Holiness. I hate to bring this up; but you just contradicted the writings of Pope John Paul II. That may not be what happened, but that is certainly the way it appears from the outside looking in.

If centuries of belief that hell is real burning in real fire gave way to Pope John Paul II’s non-literal interpretation; what will the interpretation of Hell be in another 50-100 years?

See next post re Hell described by Pope John Paul II