Is Homophobia a sin?

[edwest2]

Ok ed, what happens to your faith, your view of God and your world-view if somehow it was proven irrefutably that one’s sexual orientation is determined before birth and that one had as much control over it as he had on the colour of his eyes and the number of fat cells he is born with?

You’re talking about two different things. I don’t need faith to view something factual, understand it and accept the facts. My faith would not change. What each one of us has absolute control over is our sexual behavior. Believer, unbeliever, LGBT. Each of us decides what we will do with our real and perceived sexual orientation. If someone feels like a woman trapped in a man’s body, they will not go to me, the State or the Church. Where will they go? To a medical professional.

What is being done now is two things that were not done in the past when I knew LGBT people.

1. Renounce your privacy in public and demand same-sex marriage.
2. Get everybody to say gay behavior is OK.

In the past, I saw a nice looking lady meet her very attractive girlfriend in the parking structure. I thought nothing of it. I didn’t imagine what their life was like after work. Or a lady who decided to become a man standing in line at the cafeteria. It never entered my mind why she did it. I dated a young lady who told me she was bisexual before turning back to God. I didn’t think any different about her after the fact. We went to Church together. I had a nice conversation with the gay cousin of a friend of mine.

Today, we have 24/7 gay sex is OK.

Even if gay people are born that way, only each individual decides to control or not control their sexuality. Now we have openly gay characters on TV. It’s a marketing campaign. A straight guy who has sex with whoever every weekend and keeps on doing it, is just as much guilty of sexual sin as an LGBT person might be. Only God knows what’s in our hearts. We all have crosses to bear. Only if we believe this life is all there is and that nothing happens but physical decay after we die, do some say, “I got freedom.” No. All of us can do what we want. The news tells us people are doing terrible things to other people every day.

But, even though we are all sinners, we can’t stop proclaiming the truth. And that there is a God who is a righteous judge.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Scottgun]

Ok ed, what happens to your faith, your view of God and your world-view if somehow it was proven irrefutably that one’s sexual orientation is determined before birth and that one had as much control over it as he had on the colour of his eyes and the number of fat cells he is born with?

Here’s Ann Curry asking Rick Warren virtually the same question and Warren knocking it out of the park: youtu.be/TCxj_6yYbyc

 

[Catholic13]

**Is Homophobia a sin? **

That’s a silly question because everyone has a different definition of “homophobia” It will mean ten different things to ten people. I’ve been called “homophobic” for saying that the bible is against homosexual acts. True story.

“homophobia” is a made up word often used to try and silence someone. I often laugh when I hear anyone even use the word anymore.

 

[Stillsosola]

I think so you would be being uncharitable and judgemental it would be like hating someone for their skin tone or nationality things that can’t be changed and honestly most gay people can’t as much as they want change

 

[friardchips]

I think that posters on this thread are being overly fussy with the dictionary term: homophobic. We all know that in some parts of the world people with this issue for same-sex preference can be beaten up for it and treated really badly. I could use the term: prejudice. But I would still use the term ‘homophobia’ instead, because although a phobia is a fear of something, I would say that this aggression against gay people does stem from fear. And to be so fussy about a word starts to gain the pungent whiff of self-righteousness. Most anger if not all anger comes from ‘a fear of…’. When we deal with the fear and really start to believe, as I have started to, that people are not born that way, one loses the fear, ceases to be what is considered homophobic, and then is able to be compassionate instead of living with a phobia. Someone earlier mentioned a link to phobia for spiders. Same thing in fact, in the ‘fear’ sense, except that spiders are born as spiders. Whether or not gay people have too many X or Y chromosones etc…I am not sure is proved, this is what we were taught in school!..however, I don’t think it is proven. Never-the-less, who are we to judge? I would say I am not homophobic, because I am not scared of gay people, not now, anyway. I don’t fear them because I think, although non-Catholic gay people would think I was stuck-up for suggesting that they have an issue if acting upon the preference; that they are carrying a cross - a heavy one.

My point is that having a fear of gay people - homophobia isn’t wrong, per say, but it is very difficult to be around gay people and be natural if one has a phobia because one’s actions reflect what is in the heart most of the time. And so, the fear can very easily be prejudice and therefore, sinful. So, the best thing is to be certain of one’s position on the subject and pray for gay people and be kind when we’re amongst them. But this doesn’t mean your position has to change. I would say, in answer to the OP’s original question, I think we can’t help feelings of opposition to something that is diametrically opposed to the appetites of a heterosexual person, and the opposition we feel in itself is not altogether a bad thing, but that ‘homophobia’ can very easily become unkind, and so, sinful. Before that happens, it is best to get one’s own heart right, and take the plank out our own eyes.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Lion IRC;12372012:

I sought out professional reparative therapy to help me with my feelings about homosexuality but they told me that it’s not possible to change who you really are and that I was “born that way”.

If you are a Catholic then presumably you went to a Catholic organisation not secular otherwise what do you expect. I’m not commenting, because this is personal to you, other than to say that each person has his or her own cross, and while I may not share the same individual cross as you concerning this particular subject, at the same time, those with no opinions should get opinions and seek to have kindness on the tip of their tongues to each person with this cross, as I imagine it is a particularly awkward one for those with Catholic faith. To you, person to person: God allows us the crosses we have the potential to be able to carry. Wishing you the best in your journey and passage to Heaven.

Peace be with you and thanks for your kind wishes.

I am in fact heterosexual and I was making the point that my feelings about homosexuality can’t be called ‘unnatural’ or labelled homophobic if I am simply being biologically honest.

If it’s true that professional psychological therapies, (such as the ones that treat porn addiction, sexual dysfunction, hyper-sexuality, impotence, etc.) are unable to change gay peoples’ feelings then I guess my feelings about gay sex can’t be changed either.

 

[friardchips]

Peace be with you and thanks for your kind wishes.

Thank you, peace be with you too. And you’re welcome.

I am in fact heterosexual and I was making the point that my feelings about homosexuality can’t be called ‘unnatural’ or labelled homophobic if I am simply being biologically honest.

I just addressed this in an earlier long post just before you posted. Interested to know what you think (self-righteousness part not applied to you, btw…).

If it’s true that professional psychological therapies, (such as the ones that treat porn addiction, sexual dysfunction, hyper-sexuality, impotence, etc.) are unable to change gay peoples’ feelings then I guess my feelings about gay sex can’t be changed either.

The only thing that can change a person is love and faith and can ‘change’ or ‘heal’ all of the above problems you just listed. As Jesus said, faith moves mountains.

In the meantime, the plank quote applies, to myself also, at various times, on various different subjects.

 

[on_the_hill]

OK, I’ll keep going…

The whole doth-protest-too-much “you must be a self-loathing closeted homosexual!” is ubiquitous throughout films and sitcoms.

I agree with you, except…when I was in grad school, one of my classmates was openly anti-homosexual. If there was any mention of it, whether serious or jokingly, Mr. X was always vocal about his feelings. The PG-rated version of his comments: Gays are bad in all respects.

About three weeks before graduation, a horrible rumor spread that Mr. X had “come-on” to one of the other guys. The story was that Mr. X tried to “seduce” a classmate, and when the classmate rebuffed the advances, Mr. X threatened to tell everyone that the guy was a raging closeted homosexual. Who to believe?

Then Mr. X sat down with me and admitted to me that he was, in fact, bisexual. I said, ‘o.k., whatever. It doesn’t change anything between us.’

He got a little bit upset that I wasn’t angry with him. It was like he couldn’t understand that I could accept him as a friend even though he was ‘gay/bisexual.’

 

[kozlosap]

I sought out professional reparative therapy to help me with my feelings about homosexuality but they told me that it’s not possible to change who you really are and that I was “born that way”.

I’m not quite sure if you are being facetious or not, but those so called professionals who were demeaning young men through horrible quackery at a huge price both to their physical and mental health along with their wallets, were never considered “real” by psychiatrists. Sarah Palin’s husband was one of those quacks. The largest and most we’ll known of the reparative therapy groups closed down two years ago because the leader had to admit that it was all smoke and mirrors and that it didn’t work, even with himself.

Yes, hating someone or an entire group of people because of the way they were born is a sin. I do, however, find it hard to fathom that such hatred does not include fear. Humans sometimes fear that which they do not understand. IMHO the reason that our country has accepted gay people is that many families and friends found themselves with brothers and sisters and friends who were no longer closeted and the fear factor of accepting “queers and Lesbos” went the way of the Model T.

 

[edwest2]

I’m not quite sure if you are being facetious or not, but those so called professionals who were demeaning young men through horrible quackery at a huge price both to their physical and mental health along with their wallets, were never considered “real” by psychiatrists. Sarah Palin’s husband was one of those quacks. The largest and most we’ll known of the reparative therapy groups closed down two years ago because the leader had to admit that it was all smoke and mirrors and that it didn’t work, even with himself.

Yes, hating someone or an entire group of people because of the way they were born is a sin. I do, however, find it hard to fathom that such hatred does not include fear. Humans sometimes fear that which they do not understand. IMHO the reason that our country has accepted gay people is that many families and friends found themselves with brothers and sisters and friends who were no longer closeted and the fear factor of accepting “queers and Lesbos” went the way of the Model T.

I think clarity is required. Fear and hate are two different things. There are lots of legitimate phobias but they don’t revolve around hate, just fear.

At present, scientific research has not provided conclusive evidence that gay people are born that way. The “fear factor” of accepting “queers and lesbos” is not the issue. Based on my reading of the literature, parents were confused, upset, and blamed themselves. And accepting gay people as people is not the issue - not at present. The present 24/7 message is gay behavior is OK and same-sex marriage is OK. Bullying or harming anyone for any reason is not OK. Never was.

Peace,
Ed

 

[on_the_hill]

Sarah Palin’s husband was one of those quacks.

Rep. Michelle Bachmann’s husband, maybe?

Sarah Palin’s hubby might be a lot of things, but I’m pretty sure this isn’t one of them.

 

[Lion_IRC]

I think that posters on this thread are being overly fussy with the dictionary term: homophobic. We all know that in some parts of the world people with this issue for same-sex preference can be beaten up for it and treated really badly. I could use the term: prejudice. But I would still use the term ‘homophobia’ instead, because although a phobia is a fear of something, I would say that this aggression against gay people does stem from fear. And to be so fussy about a word starts to gain the pungent whiff of self-righteousness.

Clearly, the vast majority of people who are labelled ‘homophobic’ do not come under the technical dictionary meaning of the word - phobia. Phobias are mental/psychological disorders and I think most of the anti-homosexuality attitudes in society are linked to the religious concept we call “sin”.

It cannot be called prejudice because prejudice involves judgment prior to knowing or understanding why such opposition/judgement is warranted. But biblical theists who oppose homosexual behaviour as sinful DO understand what they oppose and why. Its not irrational. It’s not “gut feeling” or “yuck factor”. And it’s not a matter of tolerance versus intolerance. If I am supposed to tolerate the gay lifestyle that would imply that although I dislike it, nonetheless I am willing to accept it, turn a blind eye to it, ignore my personal values, just “tolerate” it.
BUT…I am not being asked to tolerate something ‘bad’. On the contrary, I am being told that it is NOT bad at all. So in what sense does the word “tolerance” apply?

And most people understand that there are semantics involved here such that in more recent times, use of the word homophobe has become a powerful polemic device in the… don’t-tell-me-what-to-do culture wars.

If Jesus of Nazareth were to say to someone ‘caught in the very act’ of homosexuality, “Go and sin no more” there would be substantial number of onlookers who would accuse Him of being a homophobe/bigot/Christofascist, etc. etc. because publicly calling homosexuality a “sin” these days is tantamount to hate speech.

…My point is that having a fear of gay people - homophobia isn’t wrong, per say, but it is very difficult to be around gay people and be natural if one has a phobia because one’s actions reflect what is in the heart most of the time. And so, the fear can very easily be prejudice and therefore, sinful.

I don’t know how you can claim that homophobia isn’t “wrong per se”. It is either wrong or it’s not wrong. If people can assert that homosexuality is natural/normal why can’t I assert that my feelings about homosexuality are natural/normal and that whatever semantic or polemic or clinical diagnostic meaning of the word ‘homophobia’ you wish to apply to me, I am born that way.

…So, the best thing is to be certain of one’s position on the subject…

 

[friardchips]

Clearly, the vast majority of people who are labelled ‘homophobic’ do not come under the technical dictionary meaning of the word - phobia. Phobias are mental/psychological disorders and I think most of the anti-homosexuality attitudes in society are linked to the religious concept we call “sin”.

It cannot be called prejudice because prejudice involves judgment prior to knowing or understanding why such opposition/judgement is warranted. But biblical theists who oppose homosexual behaviour as sinful DO understand what they oppose and why. Its not irrational. It’s not “gut feeling” or “yuck factor”. And it’s not a matter of tolerance versus intolerance. If I am supposed to tolerate the gay lifestyle that would imply that although I dislike it, nonetheless I am willing to accept it, turn a blind eye to it, ignore my personal values, just “tolerate” it.
BUT…I am not being asked to tolerate something ‘bad’. On the contrary, I am being told that it is NOT bad at all. So in what sense does the word “tolerance” apply?

And most people understand that there are semantics involved here such that in more recent times, use of the word homophobe has become a powerful polemic device in the… don’t-tell-me-what-to-do culture wars.

If Jesus of Nazareth were to say to someone ‘caught in the very act’ of homosexuality, “Go and sin no more” there would be substantial number of onlookers who would accuse Him of being a homophobe/bigot/Christofascist, etc. etc. because publicly calling homosexuality a “sin” these days is tantamount to hate speech.

I don’t know how you can claim that homophobia isn’t “wrong per se”. It is either wrong or it’s not wrong. If people can assert that homosexuality is natural/normal why can’t I assert that my feelings about homosexuality are natural/normal and that whatever semantic or polemic or clinical diagnostic meaning of the word ‘homophobia’ you wish to apply to me, I am born that way.

You have misunderstood my angle and what I was saying completely.

I am certain on my position and I don’t take back any element of my post.

Because this is personal to you I am not going to argue with you.

God bless.

 

[friardchips]

I think that posters on this thread are being overly fussy with the dictionary term: homophobic. We all know that in some parts of the world people with this issue for same-sex preference can be beaten up for it and treated really badly. I could use the term: prejudice. But I would still use the term ‘homophobia’ instead, because although a phobia is a fear of something, I would say that this aggression against gay people does stem from fear. And to be so fussy about a word starts to gain the pungent whiff of self-righteousness. Most anger if not all anger comes from ‘a fear of…’. When we deal with the fear and really start to believe, as I have started to, that people are not born that way, one loses the fear, ceases to be what is considered homophobic, and then is able to be compassionate instead of living with a phobia. Someone earlier mentioned a link to phobia for spiders. Same thing in fact, in the ‘fear’ sense, except that spiders are born as spiders. Whether or not gay people have too many X or Y chromosones etc…I am not sure is proved, this is what we were taught in school!..however, I don’t think it is proven. Never-the-less, who are we to judge? I would say I am not homophobic, because I am not scared of gay people, not now, anyway. I don’t fear them because I think, although non-Catholic gay people would think I was stuck-up for suggesting that they have an issue if acting upon the preference; that they are carrying a cross - a heavy one.

My point is that having a fear of gay people - homophobia isn’t wrong, per say, but it is very difficult to be around gay people and be natural if one has a phobia because one’s actions reflect what is in the heart most of the time. And so, the fear can very easily be prejudice and therefore, sinful. So, the best thing is to be certain of one’s position on the subject and pray for gay people and be kind when we’re amongst them. But this doesn’t mean your position has to change. I would say, in answer to the OP’s original question, I think we can’t help feelings of opposition to something that is diametrically opposed to the appetites of a heterosexual person, and the opposition we feel in itself is not altogether a bad thing, but that ‘homophobia’ can very easily become unkind, and so, sinful. Before that happens, it is best to get one’s own heart right, and take the plank out our own eyes.

This is correct and I stand by it.

 

[edwest2]

Clearly, the vast majority of people who are labelled ‘homophobic’ do not come under the technical dictionary meaning of the word - phobia. Phobias are mental/psychological disorders and I think most of the anti-homosexuality attitudes in society are linked to the religious concept we call “sin”.

It cannot be called prejudice because prejudice involves judgment prior to knowing or understanding why such opposition/judgement is warranted. But biblical theists who oppose homosexual behaviour as sinful DO understand what they oppose and why. Its not irrational. It’s not “gut feeling” or “yuck factor”. And it’s not a matter of tolerance versus intolerance. If I am supposed to tolerate the gay lifestyle that would imply that although I dislike it, nonetheless I am willing to accept it, turn a blind eye to it, ignore my personal values, just “tolerate” it.
BUT…I am not being asked to tolerate something ‘bad’. On the contrary, I am being told that it is NOT bad at all. So in what sense does the word “tolerance” apply?

And most people understand that there are semantics involved here such that in more recent times, use of the word homophobe has become a powerful polemic device in the… don’t-tell-me-what-to-do culture wars.

If Jesus of Nazareth were to say to someone ‘caught in the very act’ of homosexuality, “Go and sin no more” there would be substantial number of onlookers who would accuse Him of being a homophobe/bigot/Christofascist, etc. etc. because publicly calling homosexuality a “sin” these days is tantamount to hate speech.

I don’t know how you can claim that homophobia isn’t “wrong per se”. It is either wrong or it’s not wrong. If people can assert that homosexuality is natural/normal why can’t I assert that my feelings about homosexuality are natural/normal and that whatever semantic or polemic or clinical diagnostic meaning of the word ‘homophobia’ you wish to apply to me, I am born that way.

The don’t-tell-me-what-to-do culture wars. That’s it. That’s the whole thing. No authority anywhere. Tribalism or temporary whatever situations, are not good at creating a real, functioning society. Since all men tend toward sin, knowing where the lines are drawn makes for a meaningful, functional society. Saying a particular line no longer exists without a fully credible reason is just ‘accept what I do or be called a name or names.’

I have had no problems/issues with any of the LGBT people I have known. On a site called Catholic Answers, we need to get the truth out there. Hate is wrong. It’s not Christian. But telling people they should not sin, and I refer to myself as well, is a duty.

Peace,
Ed

 

[friardchips]

The don’t-tell-me-what-to-do culture wars. That’s it. That’s the whole thing. No authority anywhere. Tribalism or temporary whatever situations, are not good at creating a real, functioning society. Since all men tend toward sin, knowing where the lines are drawn makes for a meaningful, functional society. Saying a particular line no longer exists without a fully credible reason is just ‘accept what I do or be called a name or names.’

I have had no problems/issues with any of the LGBT people I have known. On a site called Catholic Answers, we need to get the truth out there. Hate is wrong. It’s not Christian. But telling people they should not sin, and I refer to myself as well, is a duty.

Peace,
Ed

No one said it is not. But as with all evangelisation it should be done by example which is why I said that the plank needs to be taken out first. Pope Francis said not to judge and that is good enough for me. It seems to me that people want to twist other’s posts in order to fit their own narrow versions of what love really entails from possibly a deep-seated ‘desire’ to be self-righteous. Rather irritating and certainly not Christian.

 

[edwest2]

No one said it is not. But as with all evangelisation it should be done by example which is why I said that the plank needs to be taken out first. Pope Francis said not to judge and that is good enough for me. It seems to me that people want to twist other’s posts in order to fit their own narrow versions of what love really entails from possibly a deep-seated ‘desire’ to be self-righteous. Rather irritating and certainly not Christian.

I have no idea what you mean.

Ed

 

[Lion_IRC]

You have misunderstood my angle and what I was saying completely.

I am certain on my position and I don’t take back any element of my post.

Because this is personal to you I am not going to argue with you.

God bless.

friardchips,

I read your (well-written) posts with interest and agreed with many of your points - particularly those that relate to love and good will towards those whose views and beliefs we don’t share.

I certainly do not think you are taking an ‘angle’ towards or against me and so there is no misunderstanding or suggestion on my part in that regard. I value free thought and free speech and I would be sad if you mistakenly imagined that I was taking any disagreement personally.

Likewise, I wouldn’t expect you to take back anything you have said. Your good will is self-evident in your posts and I don’t think you are intending anything to be taken personally.

Please feel free to PM me if you would like me to clarify anything further in this regard.

 

[TrCastle7]

Yes I would say it definitely is.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Yes I would say it definitely is.

Since you are so definite that it is, can you clearly ‘define’ what homophobia is?

If a person said to a homosexual who had been caught in the very act, ".…go and sin no more" would that constitute homophobic bigotry?

If someone called homosexuality an “abomination” would that be hate speech?

If God said two men sleeping together was a sin, would God be homophobic?

Wanna rethink your answer to the Op?