Is Homophobia a sin?

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edwest2 said:
I have no idea what you mean.

Ed
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Correcting my original post…

What I am trying to say is that it is by example not going around criticising that changes and heals and that way we become Christian by our actions rather than Pharisees living by words only. Do you see what I mean? So when I speak of self-righteousness, I am not directly accusing anyone, but I am commenting on what evangelization (including one’s thoughts on all things moral), real evangelization that heals, not creates more barriers, entails - not self-righteous preaching on righteous living, but righteous living. Pope F said not to judge by his own example when he said: “Who am I to judge?”. But he did not ask us to change what Scripture tells us is abhorrent to the Lord. So what is there left to do. Exactly that: DO. Live by love and example not by preachily going around telling people that they are extremely sinful because if we do that we had better be perfect ourselves in every way. The exception to this is when we are faced with a choice that would mean renouncing our own faith or if we are asked our view on something, but in the case of the latter, the view can still be fashioned for a kind response which does not stab the neighbour and inflict further hell on them.
 
Lion_IRC said:
friardchips,

I read your (well-written) posts with interest and agreed with many of your points - particularly those that relate to love and good will towards those whose views and beliefs we don’t share.

I certainly do not think you are taking an ‘angle’ towards or against me and so there is no misunderstanding or suggestion on my part in that regard. I value free thought and free speech and I would be sad if you mistakenly imagined that I was taking any disagreement personally.

Likewise, I wouldn’t expect you to take back anything you have said. Your good will is self-evident in your posts and I don’t think you are intending anything to be taken personally.

Please feel free to PM me if you would like me to clarify anything further in this regard.
:o
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Thank you for this! I am relatively new to posting on this/any forum and sometimes find it difficult to get the tone correct of the poster and end up reading it with the incorrect slant. I will try and remain more objective in the sense of not thinking about any possible slant intended, and read again what you said with fresh perspective. 👍 God bless.
 
friardchips said:
Homophobia is discrimination and therefore a sin.
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Discrimination is not in itself sinful. If I marry a woman, I am discriminating by choosing her over all other women. I discriminate by preferring the welfare of my children to the welfare of others’ children. Etc. Discrimination is pretty much essential to living.

Certainly unjust and irrational discrimination is evil, but it is evil because it is unjust and irrational, not because it is discriminatory.
 
sw85 said:
Discrimination is not in itself sinful. If I marry a woman, I am discriminating by choosing her over all other women. I discriminate by preferring the welfare of my children to the welfare of others’ children. Etc. Discrimination is pretty much essential to living.

Certainly unjust and irrational discrimination is evil, but it is evil because it is unjust and irrational, not because it is discriminatory.
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Point noted! 👍🙂 But then in that case I am not sure that ‘discrimination’ would be quite the apt word, in what we understand the word to indicate; as a rule, more ‘discerning’ or ‘preferring’, I think would be more apt, taking into consideration that people have to live and therefore understand one another via communication. I was trying to weigh up in my posts as were others whether or not the word ‘homophobia’ is a word which is indicative of abuse, and if rightfully so. I was saying, following on from others posts, that being nervous of something or someone, whether psychological (as someone pointed out) or not, can so easily turn into bitterness and hatred and self-righteousness, and something else entirely worse; so the word is normally attributed to not only the initial reason but the physical expressions that follow and build up and up. So the negative consequence of homophobia one could say is the specific evil that is the consequence. I was trying to suggest that if one heals one’s own phobia (taking the plank out) then one can live with love, lovingly for all. And this would stop the downward spiral of homophobia without having to agree with homosexuality or be outspoken against it. I tend to think these things would then heal themselves through love and understanding.
 
It’s funny to me that those who wish to debate on issues that are mainstream and part of everyday conversation would not use every source available in order to learn and mature in their views. I try and read and then personally disect articles from many different news organizations: NYT, Catholic Register, Huff Post, Fox, Washington Post… 🤷
 
kozlosap said:
It’s funny to me that those who wish to debate on issues that are mainstream and part of everyday conversation would not use every source available in order to learn and mature in their views. I try and read and then personally disect articles from many different news organizations: NYT, Catholic Register, Huff Post, Fox, Washington Post… 🤷
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Me too. I like ‘The Week’ magazine as it has lots of articles from various newspapers and I can, as you do, make my own mind up from the info. available.
 
Johann_du_Toit said:
Before we begin I must emphasize this thread is not about the Church’s teaching on marriage or the immorality of homosexual acts. The Church has been abundantly clear about it’s teaching concerning these subjects. I know them, I accept them and agree with them.

My questions rather is hatred of homosexuals, like what is practiced and preached by the late Fred Phelps and Uganda’s Yoweri Museveni, sinful? In other words advocating ill treatment and discrimination, even criminal prosecution of homosexuals? After all it’s one thing to not condone or feel comfortable about the act itself but advocating violence and intolerance against an entire category of people seems unchristian and immoral to me-especially when the Church teaches that it is the homosexual act, not homosexuality in itself, that is sinful (please correct me if my interpretation of Church teaching is mistaken) and it is accepted that homosexual orientation is not a choice.
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Being homosexual is not a crime anywhere in the world.
 
friardchips said:
Correcting my original post…

What I am trying to say is that it is by example not going around criticising that changes and heals and that way we become Christian by our actions rather than Pharisees living by words only. Do you see what I mean? So when I speak of self-righteousness, I am not directly accusing anyone, but I am commenting on what evangelization (including one’s thoughts on all things moral), real evangelization that heals, not creates more barriers, entails - not self-righteous preaching on righteous living, but righteous living. Pope F said not to judge by his own example when he said: “Who am I to judge?”. But he did not ask us to change what Scripture tells us is abhorrent to the Lord. So what is there left to do. Exactly that: DO. Live by love and example not by preachily going around telling people that they are extremely sinful because if we do that we had better be perfect ourselves in every way. The exception to this is when we are faced with a choice that would mean renouncing our own faith or if we are asked our view on something, but in the case of the latter, the view can still be fashioned for a kind response which does not stab the neighbour and inflict further hell on them.
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In the United States, on national television, a celebrity told everyone watching to “stop being homophobic.” That was fair or reasonable? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read something like the following on gay/gay marriage sites: “There’s still homophobia in the Catholic Church.” At no time was the definition of homophobia given. I took it as “if they are against us they are homophobic,” which is connected to hate.

Is that accurate?

Ed
 
edwest2 said:
In the United States, on national television, a celebrity told everyone watching to “stop being homophobic.” That was fair or reasonable? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read something like the following on gay/gay marriage sites: “There’s still homophobia in the Catholic Church.” At no time was the definition of homophobia given. I took it as “if they are against us they are homophobic,” which is connected to hate.

Is that accurate?

Ed
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Depends on the situation: what was said; to what were they responding; it depends what they meant by ‘against’; what did they mean by homophobia? - lacking info. on the whole.

I’m not an expert on this topic. I have an opinion because I think for all things controversial on topics concerning moral attitudes, one has an obligation as a Christian to get an opinion. And I was trying in my posts to simplify: be kind to others, not budging on one’s own views if questioned, and God will take care of the rest. Complicating things just doesn’t help. There is misunderstanding it seems between what the media thinks are reasons for opposition to the consequences of homosexuality and the real reasons. They generalise and apparently use the word ‘homophobic’ because it is easy to take a word and abuse it. IMO, the only people who can bridge those gaps verbally, or have the right to, are gay people in the R.C Church who live up to Church teaching. I think it is a tough cross for them. I don’t want to comment anymore because I don’t have that gender-cross and so feel self-righteous even talking about it. The only way we can share the cross with gay people is to be kind-hearted and pray.

What is interesting, moving away from the word itself, is what is judging, in this instance? Am I judging if I merely think that those feelings are wrong? Or is judging if I think a person is a bad person because they have those ‘irregular’ feelings. Or is it only judging if I express my opinion without being questioned?
 
edwest2 said:
Getting away from opinion and going to Church teaching, we find the following:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

Ed
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Good article. Thanks for this!

My points made in there regarding compassion:

’Nonetheless, according to the teaching of the Church, men and women with homosexual tendencies “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided”.(7)'

My point made on not changing our position on the matter:

’They are called, like other Christians, to live the virtue of chastity.(8) The homosexual inclination is however “objectively disordered”(9) and homosexual practices are “sins gravely contrary to chastity”.(10)'
  • Hence, why I mentioned the word ‘cross’.
What this article is doing is showing us why homosexuality is disordered, which Christians already understand.

Speaking out against is when an issue rises which threatens the sanctity of life and is mainly concerned with politicians and those in religious authority or anyone in a position to speak directly on matters involving them. Which is why I raised the point about what is judging! This article does explain that. Many thanks.

I did say before that gay people who have this cross as Christians are the ones who should be entitled to speak out even when not questioned and I hold to that. This does not contradict the Vatican article because that article, as I noted, deals with those in positions that decide on the rules for the majority: politicians, or on matters of doctrine - religious authority.

For people, the laity, to go around saying why they appose this and that with no invite - well, that’s your own prerogative but as I said, this seems self-righteous and judging, therefore it is by loving kindness only that can help. Even then, I happen to think it is arrogant for people who don’t have a particular cross to go around thinking they can change people. Although I do believe that God heals the heart and mind, by Himself, or through us. Not by our philosophical blah blahing. He heals as He sees fit in His way as and when He sees it is good. Not by our own limited little opinions. I sometimes feel that minority groups are treated like dogs not people who others feel they can preside over. God is the judge. This doesn’t mean having to voice anything that goes against our own belief, it just means getting in line and letting the people with the responsibility of making these decisions get on and make them and leaving matters of doctrine to the Pope and the Vatican to do their jobs too.
 
I recall a Bishop saying “We can’t do it by ourselves.” In other words, if the laity does not involve itself with other people in some way, the message - whatever it may be - remains within the Church, and even then, some messages are not accepted by some in the Church. How do we engage the culture? Surely, saying nothing is not the answer, and there are few priests who work alongside the common man at his job. So, if a subject is brought up, do I assume being silent is the best approach? In a few cases, it may be, but in others, no. The media is sending us messages, uninvited, all the time. I’m tired of sleazy magazine covers, for example. Should I complain - politely? Why not?

There is a Culture War going on. That’s a given. “Those values on which we used to rely” are being by replaced by bad values or no values or “I’ll make it up as I go along” values. I’ve been called homophobic by a smart but media-brainwashed friend of mine. Poor guy. He knows that I would never say or do anything bad toward a homosexual person.

And, you’re welcome 🙂

Best,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
I recall a Bishop saying “We can’t do it by ourselves.” In other words, if the laity does not involve itself with other people in some way, the message - whatever it may be - remains within the Church, and even then, some messages are not accepted by some in the Church. How do we engage the culture? Surely, saying nothing is not the answer, and there are few priests who work alongside the common man at his job. So, if a subject is brought up, do I assume being silent is the best approach? In a few cases, it may be, but in others, no. The media is sending us messages, uninvited, all the time. I’m tired of sleazy magazine covers, for example. Should I complain - politely? Why not?

There is a Culture War going on. That’s a given. “Those values on which we used to rely” are being by replaced by bad values or no values or “I’ll make it up as I go along” values. I’ve been called homophobic by a smart but media-brainwashed friend of mine. Poor guy. He knows that I would never say or do anything bad toward a homosexual person.

And, you’re welcome 🙂

Best,
Ed
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Why are people so scared of silence? In the silence, the gentle breeze is where God speaks, so yes! Quite. Pray. If you are called to protest in one way or another then there will be a time and a place. This is what discernment is for: so we can listen to see and hear where God wants us. St. Ignatius when asked while sweeping what he’d do if the world was about to end said that he’d carry on sweeping the floor. Fervour is a good thing, but fervour to grow in grace. Humility is what God rewards, and The Way to increase in humility, is to be kind and serve, not Lord it over others, because Jesus Christ is Lord. And He is in every suffering person and every person with a heavy cross, as well as in those who have faith in Him. 🙂
 
Faith cometh by hearing.

I think homophobia is a fake word that is used to arouse a negative emotional response. So, it’s not a sin since only individuals may have negative feelings toward homosexuals. They could have been taught to believe certain negative things about them. Or been exposed to others that encouraged that individual to bully or even injure them. On a few internet forums, if someone is against some gay rights issue, it’s assumed that this anonymous person is homophobic. I think that’s a wrong assumption to make and doesn’t define anything. I think being against some gay rights issue does mean a person is a ‘fake word’ by default.

Ed
 
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