Is it a mortal sin to lie and deny God at gunpoint to save ones life?

[bilop]

What if he said your wife and children die based on what you say? The right thing is not getting others killed.

Nope, no change. It is never right to deny God. I hope and pray I would have the strength the do the right thing if ever faced with that horrible situation.

The only way the denial might be moral is if it were part of some subterfuge to gain an advantage over your attackers. For example, a Christian in India or Iraq (or some such place where Christians are persecuted) comes upon a group of armed Moslems who are about to murder a group of Christians. The Moslems don’t know his religion. He is unarmed, and if he identifies himself as a Christian, will just be killed along with the others.

If he were to pretend to be a Moslem, denouncing Christ etc., in order to gain their trust, and get access to a weapon so he could defend the other Christians, that would be moral. i.e. He say “praise be to Allah I want to help you kill those infidel dogs who believe in the false prophet Christ. Give me a rifle.” Getting the rifle, he then kills the Moslems. Otherwise, just to lie to save your skin is a sin.

BTW, why do you trust the madman not to kill you all any way?

God Bless

 

[LilyM]

and so would Jesus have denied Peter to His Father? no he repented and was forgiven, because Jesus is love and forgiveness.

If you child says “I hate you” is a fit of anger do you put him out of your life? Or do you know that he is too young and immature to understand the implications of what his has said and truly doesn’t mean it. And if out hypothetical gunman had a gun to your child’s head and would kill him if he did not say that he hated you, would you hold him to that statement afterward? God is greater than I, greater in love and wisdom and forgiveness.

Ah, but Judas ALSO denied Jesus. And no such happy ending for him. Even though, for all we know, he could plead equal pressures to those Peter was under.

Of course you wouldn’t put the child out of your life, assuming they didn’t really mean it and were genuinely sorry. That’s why we’re not assuming it’s a MORTAL sin. But neither would you pretend that they did absolutley nothing wrong by saying ‘I hate you’. Even if they didn’t really mean the words at the time, such a saying can’t help but hurt you, and that’s ultimately what sin is - choosing to do something that hurts God.

 

[trayletha]

The difference between this and islamic extremism, is that suicide bombers (we’ll use them as an example) purposely hurt others (‘infidels’), and die (as martyrs their faith tells them) in the process. A Christian martyr is not intending to harm others…but, will put his/her own life on the line, in defense of the faith. That’s the difference. Not one saint who died as a martyr, hurt others with violence, in the process.

Absolutely, and many martyrs died in the defense of another human life or lives, putting themselves under the gun so to speak to prevent the deaths of others.

 

[TheRiver]

Nope, no change. It is never right to deny God. I hope and pray I would have the strength the do the right thing if ever faced with that horrible situation.

It’s never right to get others killed either, especially if they don’t want to be killed. That’s why I said intent matters.

The only way the denial might be moral is if it were part of some subterfuge to gain an advantage over your attackers. For example, a Christian in India or Iraq (or some such place where Christians are persecuted) comes upon a group of armed Moslems who are about to murder a group of Christians. The Moslems don’t know his religion. He is unarmed, and if he identifies himself as a Christian, will just be killed along with the others.

That’s diametrically opposed to your other statement, the right thing to do then would be to not be cowardly and also proudly say you are Christian and if your brothers are to be killed you must be too.

If he were to pretend to be a Moslem, denouncing Christ etc., in order to gain their trust, and get access to a weapon so he could defend the other Christians, that would be moral. i.e. He say “praise be to Allah I want to help you kill those infidel dogs who believe in the false prophet Christ. Give me a rifle.” Getting the rifle, he then kills the Moslems. Otherwise, just to lie to save your skin is a sin.

You have an over-active imagination, what would most likely happen is they’d shoot you first for stumbling upon the execution. Unless you want to come up with a scenario where you happened to also have studied the Q’uran in perfect arabic

BTW, why do you trust the madman not to kill you all any way?

God Bless

Doesn’t matter, you take the chance you have with saving your family’s life.

 

[whatevergirl]

*I pray we’re never in this circumstance, but I would stay silent, I think. I heard a priest talk about this very thing last year, (it was actually in context with a real life scenario, where terrorists were telling their hostages to accept Islam, and denounce Christianty) The priest said that it wouldn’t be a mortal sin if you are defending your life, if you are under duress when someone is telling you to say such a thing. I don’t know, I understood that (answering the culpability part), but it seems in another way, like we are not trusting God in the situation. I mean, if we lose our life in **that **situation, in defending our faith…we still have the hope of eternal life, which surpasses our imagination, of how awesome that will be. OR–It’s possible that the man’s gun will jam, because you have trusted God, you will be free. It reminds me of how much Abraham trusted God, when God asked him to sacrifice his son. God spared Isaac. *

 

[bilop]

The difference between this and islamic extremism, is that suicide bombers (we’ll use them as an example) purposely hurt others (‘infidels’), and die (as martyrs their faith tells them) in the process. A Christian martyr is not intending to harm others…but, will put his/her own life on the line, in defense of the faith. That’s the difference. Not one saint who died as a martyr, hurt others with violence, in the process.

Agreed on the general point, of course. But I’m not so sure a martyr can not also use force to defend himself and family.

Say a Moslem mob comes to a Christian family’s home in Iraq and demands they convert or die. They refuse, and when the mob attacks, the father, who owns a rifle, tries to defend his family, killing some attackers in the process. I don’t think they cease to be martyrs.

God Bless

 

[TheRiver]

Agreed on the general point, of course. But I’m not so sure a martyr can not also use force to defend himself and family.

Say a Moslem mob comes to a Christian family’s home in Iraq and demands they convert or die. They refuse, and when the mob attacks, the father, who owns a rifle, tries to defend his family, killing some attackers in the process. I don’t think they cease to be martyrs.

God Bless

It definitely would not be wrong to kill off your enemy if they were intended harm, Jesus did not advocate pacifism,

 

[trayletha]

choosing to do something that hurts God.

I think under the hypothitical the concept of choice might be questionable; also Judas betrayed Jesus before he denied him - rather like stealing a man’s wallet after you’ve murdered him, still a crime but once he’s dead does the wallet mean much to him?

 

[bilop]

It’s never right to get others killed either, especially if they don’t want to be killed. That’s why I said intent matters.

Again, the attcaker is doing the killing, you have no culpability.

That’s diametrically opposed to your other statement, the right thing to do then would be to not be cowardly and also proudly say you are Christian and if your brothers are to be killed you must be too.

It is not cowardly to attempt to risk your life to save them.

You have an over-active imagination, what would most likely happen is they’d shoot you first for stumbling upon the execution. Unless you want to come up with a scenario where you happened to also have studied the Q’uran in perfect arabic

Trying to stretch to give you a situation where the denunciation is moral

Doesn’t matter, you take the chance you have with saving your family’s life.

Nope. Maybe he’ll respect your courage and convictions and let them go.

God Bless

 

[whatevergirl]

Agreed on the general point, of course. But I’m not so sure a martyr can not also use force to defend himself and family.

Say a Moslem mob comes to a Christian family’s home in Iraq and demands they convert or die. They refuse, and when the mob attacks, the father, who owns a rifle, tries to defend his family, killing some attackers in the process. I don’t think they cease to be martyrs.

God Bless

*Hi river;

Again, the christian man is defending his faith AND family. He didn’t **start **the violence. He is reacting to it, by protecting the lives of his family.

Look at 9/11. The terrorists aboard the planes were intent on harming not only themselves to achieve ‘martyrdom’ but they were intent…PURPOSELY willing to hurt others …Suicide bombers in Israel, don’t go to a remote field and blow themselves up…they go to a shopping market, or hop on a bus. The intent is to harm those who are against Islam, and IN THE PROCESS, they lose their own life. The scenario above that you name, the Christian dad is not willfully interested in hurting the Muslims who are attacking, but he might hurt them, in defending his family. The terrorists on 9/11 were willfully interested in hurting others. That’s the ultimate difference. I watched a documentary on this several months ago…and it was fascinating.*

 

[whatevergirl]

*lol–oops, I meant bilop…I thought that was the river replying. Sorry. *

 

[bilop]

*Hi river;

Again, the christian man is defending* his faith AND family. He didn’t **start **the violence. He is reacting to it, by protecting the lives of his family.

Look at 9/11. The terrorists aboard the planes were intent on harming not only themselves to achieve ‘martyrdom’ but they were intent…PURPOSELY willing to hurt others …Suicide bombers in Israel, don’t go to a remote field and blow themselves up…they go to a shopping market, or hop on a bus. The intent is to harm those who are against Islam, and IN THE PROCESS, they lose their own life. The scenario above that you name, the Christian dad is not willfully interested in hurting the Muslims who are attacking, but he might hurt them, in defending his family. The terrorists on 9/11 were willfully interested in hurting others. That’s the ultimate difference. I watched a documentary on this several months ago…and it was fascinating.

I’m not River, and you misinterpreted my post.

I was arguing that the Christian man might still be a martyr. His actions are certainly moral, and nothing close to the suicide bombers.

God Bless

 

[trayletha]

Well I am really enjoying this discussion but soccer practice is over and little people need food, homework help, baths and bed…I’ll check in tomorrow.

 

[whatevergirl]

I’m not River, and you misinterpreted my post.

I was arguing that the Christian man might still be a martyr. His actions are certainly moral, and nothing close to the suicide bombers.

God Bless

We’re talking past each other, I think. I concur with you…I actually said this a few posts back.

 

[whatevergirl]

I said similar, not exactly the same, so there ends your subsequent rant. It would help to read carefully.

Somethings are similar if they share certain characteristics, it doesn’t have to be all.

*Please don’t be rude. I was making a statement…that’s all. I was not ranting. *

 

[Secret_Square]

Again I think you all are losing sight of an important difference between the scenario posed by the OP and that actually faced by most of the martyrs of history.

The OP’s scenario involves a lone, crazed gunman suddenly attacking one’s family with no warning, and no more than a split second, perhaps, to react. The assailant will very likely be apprehended or killed (by you or by the police) or kill himself at some point, at which time the threat will have ended. If one were to give in to his demands and deny one’s faith in a moment of panic, it would not encourage anyone else to do the same or endanger anyone else, and once the threat was over, you would be perfectly free to resume practicing your faith again.

The situation of most martyrs – from the mother and sons in Maccabees to ancient Rome to Tudor England to Nazi Germany to Communist Russia – is much different. They were subjected to ongoing persecution by organized forces whose explicit intent was to wipe out the Christian or Jewish faith, or destroy some aspect of its teaching or practice. Giving in to their demands would only convince these forces to continue their campaign of persecution in the belief that it was succeeding. Moreover, simply denying one’s faith once would not be enough; one would have to give up practicing one’s faith completely or do a very good job of keeping it hidden, or else risk being punished again. In a situation like that, I believe there would be more of a moral obligation to resist even to the point of death (assuming that one could not escape the situation completely by fleeing to another country) since giving in will do much more harm than good and endanger other Christians as well.

 

[LilyM]

Nope. Maybe he’ll respect your courage and convictions and let them go.

God Bless

I like to think Paul’s fairly rapid conversion just may’ve had a little something to do with a seed planted by Stephen the martyr.

It is a known fact that spectators in Rome, watching Christians being thrown to the lions, were so impressed by their courage that some of them actually jumped from the stands into the arena to share their fate!

 

[Tietjen]

So you want to die simply because it’s matyrdom? That in itself doesn’t make it matyrdom, it seems more like you want to die in that situation to get status. That’s not what matyrdom is at all.

LOL TheRiver, yes that’s me… I’m all about status. And like so many of the saints, I think it would be an honor to die for God. Christ came down to Earth INTENDING to die for you. Was he looking for “status” too? You can call that whatever you’re heart desires, but your opinion means nothing to me.

I think the response to the situation depends on the circumstances, I would do exactly as the gunman wanted if friends and family were around for their sake, not because I wanted to die a “matyr” and possibly have everyone die as matyrs too

What makes you think that the gunman will kill other people just because you state that you believe in God?

 

[LilyM]

What makes you think that the gunman will kill other people just because you state that you believe in God?

More pertinently, what on earth makes you think the gunman would NOT kill you or those around you just because you stated you DIDN’T believe in God?

Edith Stein, a convert from Judaism to Catholicism in her teens, was sent to a concentration camp, and executed there, in WWII. Her Nazi captors certainly didn’t believe that she wasn’t a Jew, even though she certainly told them as much, not to save her skin but because as a nun she believed strongly in her Catholic faith.

 

[Holly3278]

If I were still single and didn’t have family, I would definitely accept martyrdom. However, if I was married with a family, I’m not sure what I would do.