Is it God's fault people go to hell?

[belorg]

If there arent enough bricks to fill the wall, wouldn’t you say that is an insufficient amount of bricks?

How else would the spaces be left unfilled? There was no mention of the builder punching a hole in the wall or taking bricks out, so how do they come to the conclusion that the builder purposely made a hole?

I don’t know where you are from, but where I come from, we don’t build walls and punch holes in them to make room for windows. instead, we purposely leave out bricks. The result is: a hole, which is just an absense of bricks, so, according to the student’s faulty logic, it wasnot created by the builder. but obviously it was.

 

[987mk]

I don’t know where you are from, but where I come from, we don’t build walls and punch holes in them to make room for windows. instead, we purposely leave out bricks. The result is: a hole, which is just an absense of bricks, so, according to the student’s faulty logic, it wasnot created by the builder. but obviously it was.

That’s what we call ‘checkmate.’

 

[Amandil]

That’s what we call ‘checkmate.’

No, it’s called a terribly insufficient analogy.

 

[Amandil]

Or you can go even further to suggest that the bricks removed by that third party(Satan), who thought that their removal would screw up the whole plan, that the Designer(God), who created the third party already conceived of that third party’s vandalism and planned that that vandalism would become the focal point of the whole design.

 

[987mk]

Or you can go even further to suggest that the bricks removed by that third party(Satan), who thought that their removal would screw up the whole plan, that the Designer(God), who created the third party already conceived of that third party’s vandalism and planned that that vandalism would become the focal point of the whole design.

Exactly, everything was a part of Gods plan and Gods will is being carried out through Satan.

If God hadn’t permitted the serpent in the garden and permitted the serpent to tempt Adam, Gods exacting plans for Adam would not have taken place.

 

[Eternal_One]

I don’t know where you are from, but where I come from, we don’t build walls and punch holes in them to make room for windows. instead, we purposely leave out bricks. The result is: a hole, which is just an absense of bricks, so, according to the student’s faulty logic, it wasnot created by the builder. but obviously it was.

Where I come from, leaving bricks out does not equate to making a hole; especially if the builder was not supplied with a complete set of bricks. As another poster stated, this analogy is faulty and things that were not mentioned, such as windows, are now being introduced into the discussion.

Which by the way, if bricks were left out for a window, that wouldnt exactly be a hole since the window would fill the gap.

Any other stipulations you’d like to add to this faulty analogy?

 

[987mk]

Where I come from, leaving bricks out does not equate to making a hole; especially if the builder was not supplied with a complete set of bricks. As another poster stated, this analogy is faulty and things that were not mentioned, such as windows, are now being introduced into the discussion.

Which by the way, if bricks were left out for a window, that wouldnt exactly be a hole since the window would fill the gap.

Any other stipulations you’d like to add to this faulty analogy?

This is the only place in the world where you can come and find people who refuse to believe a brick layer can deliberately create a hole in a wall with an absence of bricks.

 

[Eternal_One]

This is the only place in the world where you can come and find people who refuse to believe a brick layer can deliberately create a hole in a wall with an absence of bricks.

Deliberately building an incomplete wall is not the same as making a hole in the wall either, just as creating a donut with no center (therefore nothing to create a hole in) is not the same as making donut holes with a donut that started out with a center.

If the brick layer is asking to be handed a brick to lay more down to complete the wall and people refuse to give him bricks to fill the hole, who is responsible?

 

[belorg]

Where I come from, leaving bricks out does not equate to making a hole; especially if the builder was not supplied with a complete set of bricks. As another poster stated, this analogy is faulty and things that were not mentioned, such as windows, are now being introduced into the discussion.

Which by the way, if bricks were left out for a window, that wouldnt exactly be a hole since the window would fill the gap.

Any other stipulations you’d like to add to this faulty analogy?

I never said that the builder wasn’t supplied with a complete set of bricks. Unless you want to believe that God, creator of everything from nothing left his creation incomplete because He couldn’t find enough ‘bricks’ to complete it, you have done nothing to even suggest my analogy is faulty.

 

[belorg]

This is the only place in the world where you can come and find people who refuse to believe a brick layer can deliberately create a hole in a wall with an absence of bricks.

Sadly enough, there are lots of such places;

 

[belorg]

The windows don’t matter. What matters is that defining something as an absense does not entail that it wasn’t purposely created. It was the student’s analogy that was flawed, and had the professor replied in the way I suggested, the student, if he was bright and open-minded enough, would have realized the flaw.

 

[NormalBeliever]

God forces a soul to live in a body on earth.

( God knows that soul will end up in hell)

That soul is then forced by God to exist eternally in hell. I agree, the soul chose hell, but it is only God that has chosen to force that soul to exist forever. The soul didn’t choose to exist forever, that is 100% Gods choice.

If God had not created the soul, the soul would not choose hell and the soul would not suffer forever. **It is Gods will that the soul suffer in hell forever.
**
Nothing I have said is incorrect and not a single one of you has addressed this horror.

‘‘God forces a soul to live in a body on earth.’’

Isn’t it that God creates a soul because of his of his love?This is one of the reasons I have heard why he creates a soul.But anyways,you seem to be thinking that God forcing a soul to exist equals physical manipulation and condemnation.Nope.

The soul has a choice to make.It has a responsibility to do.A responsibility for which God isn’t responsible.

The soul sends itself to Hell.

In fact,the souls who go to Hell in the end get what they want,that is,an identity they made themselves not on God.

In fact,there are many views of what Hell actually is.

One view I heard is that Hell is simply a state of forever going shame.

No fire or anything.Just a varying state of shame.

This theory was based on the claim that an afterlife state is based on honor (Heaven) or shame (Hell).

 

[NormalBeliever]

Wrong.

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

There is no question evil came into the world through his permission, for nothing can exist without God.

What kind of evil?Do you mean God creates moral evil?Or just by natural disasters and such?

 

[NormalBeliever]

I don’t know where you are from, but where I come from, we don’t build walls and punch holes in them to make room for windows. instead, we purposely leave out bricks. The result is: a hole, which is just an absense of bricks, so, according to the student’s faulty logic, it wasnot created by the builder. but obviously it was.

Except in the case of God,God didn’t do anything to that wall.We did.

 

[belorg]

Except in the case of God,God didn’t do anything to that wall.We did.

That’s the problem. We are the wall and it’s because we have ‘holes’ in us( which God did create unless you are claiming we created ourselves) that we make mistakes.

 

[NormalBeliever]

That’s the problem. We are the wall and it’s because we have ‘holes’ in us( which God did create unless you are claiming we created ourselves) that we make mistakes.

Your logic does not seem coherent.

First of all,God created us,he gave us free will to choose,but we have chosen to go against him.We made our choice,our will made that choice.God did not force us to fall.

We did it.It is as if the bricks of the brick wall are alive and have decided to move away creating the hole.

 

[belorg]

Your logic does not seem coherent.

First of all,God created us,he gave us free will to choose,but we have chosen to go against him.We made our choice,our will made that choice.God did not force us to fall.

We did it.It is as if the bricks of the brick wall are alive and have decided to move away creating the hole.

My logic is quite coherent. What the wall analogy shows is that a creator is also responsible for the absense of something.

You are trying to give a reason why God created the absense, which is another matter altogether. My point was that treating evil as a privation in itself doesn’t solve the problem.
Your variety of the free will defense is an attempt to solve the problem in another way. I am convinced this free will defense fails, but that’s another discussion…

 

[NormalBeliever]

My logic is quite coherent. What the wall analogy shows is that a creator is also responsible for the absense of something.

You are trying to give a reason why God created the absense, which is another matter altogether. My point was that treating evil as a privation in itself doesn’t solve the problem.
Your variety of the free will defense is an attempt to solve the problem in another way. I am convinced this free will defense fails, but that’s another discussion…

‘‘What the wall analogy shows is that a creator is also responsible for the absense of something.’’

Why is God responsible for what we did?Why should he be?

‘‘You are trying to give a reason why God created the absense, which is another matter altogether’’

It seems to me you looked wrongly at my explanation and to you it looks like a reason for an assumption I already accept.Which I don’t.

‘‘Your variety of the free will defense is an attempt to solve the problem in another way.’’

How?I am simply saying we,humans,are responsible for this evil,not God.Now,since we are the ones who created this evil,this absence of God,how can you suddenly still say it was God who did it?What is your reasoning behind it?

 

[belorg]

‘‘What the wall analogy shows is that a creator is also responsible for the absense of something.’’

Why is God responsible for what we did?Why should he be?

‘‘You are trying to give a reason why God created the absense, which is another matter altogether’’

It seems to me you looked wrongly at my explanation and to you it looks like a reason for an assumption I already accept.Which I don’t.

‘‘Your variety of the free will defense is an attempt to solve the problem in another way.’’

How?I am simply saying we,humans,are responsible for this evil,not God.Now,since we are the ones who created this evil,this absence of God,how can you suddenly still say it was God who did it?What is your reasoning behind it?

The Nicean Creed, which says that God is the creator of everything. “Everything” includes the holes in the wall, as my analogy shows.

 

[belorg]

I brought up “bricks” too, but since we can build a wall using rocks instead, that must mean my analogy is flawed.

I agree that is important. It would be helpful if you could provide anything to support that definition.

Which definition? Evil is defined as an absense or a privation by the student in the analogy. I have no interest at the moment in defining evil. All I am saying is that defining evil as a privation, in and out of itself, does not take away the responsibility of the creator of everything.

We have already pointed out the flaw in your hypothetical student’s response and you have admitted your defense “doesn’t matter”. Of course, I am receptive to any other counterarguments you might have.

Well “it doesn’t matter” whether the wall is built with bricks or rocks or wood, so I suppose that means "you have pointed out the flaw in my hypothetical professor’s response.

I do sympathize with your basic premise. God created a wall (creation) and some of the bricks (souls) risk falling apart, thus leaving a hole (evil) in the wall. Your position is that the builder should have foreseen the eventual formation of this absence in the wall.

No, that is not my position, so the rest of your post is irrelevant.