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987mk
Guest
The Judge sets the sentence.
The Judge can pardon the thief.
The thief cannot pardon himself.
So it is with God.
- Status
The Judge can pardon the thief.
The thief cannot pardon himself.
So it is with God.
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987mk
Guest
Then we can choose to love God after we die.
Which we can’t choose to do, because God chooses not to allow that and god chooses not to let us do that.
It sure doesn’t feel like a choice to me. It’s almost like a set of rules that I have no say over.
J
John_Martin
Guest
Well, once you die, you will not have your body at hand, it is in using your body that you actualize what you will, not in your soul. You are making a lot of assertions about things you have not thought through. You speak of what happens after you die without thinking of the implications of what they mean, such as what a soul can or can’t do without a body (which is dead when you die and unable to be used by the separated soul). It sounds to me like you are just pouting because you don’t like the sound of what you are not digging in to understand.
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987mk
Guest
I’m being told I get to choose between A and B.
A true choice is to abstain from either, but that’s not allowed.
God has a gun to my head and demands I choose A or B. I just want to be left alone and I’d like to choose neither…but the gun is to my head and God demands I choose.
If I refuse to choose, he makes the choice for me and sends me to hell. That’s not a choice I made.
Every soul in hell is there because God willed them into existence, knowing they would choose hell. That is the bottom line.
We’ll have to agree to disagree.
W
WilT
Guest
Your choice ends when you are dead. After that Jesus takes charge and once he choses where you go you no longer will have a say so. No choice for you I’m afraid. So you can make good choices while on Earth or bad ones which can lead you to a permanence in Hell.
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987mk
Guest
It really isn’t a choice.
You have the choice between a Black car and a white car.
me-I want a red car.
We don’t have red cars.
me-Ok then, I don’t want a car.
You have to choose a car.
me-I only want a red car and you don’t have a red car, so I’ll choose to keep taking the bus.
No, you have to choose between black and white, those are the rules the boss upstairs created.
me-I don’t want either, I’m not interested in what conditions and rules your boss arbitrarily created… I’ll just leave now…thanks.
Forces me into a black car and welds the door shut
’ Good choice sir, black suits you’
Yeah, I chose black.
N
NormalBeliever
Guest
First,no.God forces people into a short earthly existence and despite his knowing that they will reject him and therefore will spend infinity in hell, he creates these people anyway.
You consistently fail to address the simple fact;
God creates people knowing that they will spend eternity in hell and then blames them for not choosing him.
He knew they weren’t going to choose him!
God has no responsibility when he creates us.
He creates us,and lets us to our own free choice.
There seems to be a mistake here.You assume since God knows anything,including who will go to Hell or Heaven,this makes him automatically responsible for this or the thing that caused this.
Nope.God may be omniscient,but this does not in any way mean he personally predestines things…
People who go to Hell choose it…God just let’s it be their choice…
If you say God is still guilty because he creates humans anyway,that is a false premise.
Because there is still free choice to play.Using that kind of arugment above is pushing the blame to God,despite the fact he is not responsible,in any way,for it.
N
NormalBeliever
Guest
‘‘and it is God who chooses to never will those souls out of existence.’’
Why should he?Really?Why should he take responsibility for something we ourselves wished?Why should he be concerned primarily with something we ourselves wanted?
Again,God leaves us to our own choice.All your arguments are are just blame shifting to God.
Again,man chooses Hell.God just lets man choose it.He created him with free will.
There is no reason for God to disobey his promise of free will,which could make God imperfect if he did so.
God creates people,but the simple fact remains we choose Hell…
N
NormalBeliever
Guest
It seems you are hardly sticking to your own dillema…
Again,people freely choose to go to Hell and dismiss God.
There is absolutely no responsibility on God’s hand for what we** fully**choose ourselves
Give me a reason why God is guilty for what we completely did.
Keep in mind,God may be omniscient but he does not predict and cause and take part in any of the things that happen in the future.
This is a typical mistake many people make.
A
Amandil
Guest
To abstain from choosing is still a choice.I’m being told I get to choose between A and B.
A true choice is to abstain from either, but that’s not allowed.
God has a gun to my head and demands I choose A or B. I just want to be left alone and I’d like to choose neither…but the gun is to my head and God demands I choose.
If I refuse to choose, he makes the choice for me and sends me to hell. That’s not a choice I made.
Every soul in hell is there because God willed them into existence, knowing they would choose hell. That is the bottom line.
We’ll have to agree to disagree.
By default you merit hell. So to abstain to choose for God and eternal bliss is to necessarily choose your way over His.
Therefore you choose hell, not God.
God only “choice” it to abstain from forcing you to choose Him. Then all that’s left is for Him to affirm the choice you made by abstaining.
N
NormalBeliever
Guest
No it does not.
God is all knowing…but he does not simply do anything to predict or lead events.
God put the tree in the garden for Adam and Eve to freely choose…
Again…you are making a completely baseless and weak assertion that God is somehow responsible for our free will (which unlike your assertions actually logically seperates our responsibility from God)
This very fact makes your argument a false dillemma not just on the top and on the bottom as well,but everywhere.
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987mk
Guest
God knew Adam would eat the apple, but went ahead and left the tree there anyway.
Would a loving parent leave a box of poisoned chocolate in a child’s room, telling them not to eat the chocolate or they’ll die?
Then when the child eats the chocolate and dies, all the blame is put on the child?
Lol no.
Everyone would agree, the parent should not have left the poison in their child’s room, as they should have known their child would eat the chocolate.
In the case of God, it wasn’t something he should have known…it was a known certainty, but he did it anyway.
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987mk
Guest
Without God, there would be no souls eternally damned to hell.
God knows the soul he is creating will be damned to hell at the end of the souls bodily life.
God creates the soul anyway.
God creates the soul.
God knows the soul will end up in hell.
God creates a soul for the purpose of eternal damnation.
God knows the soul will not choose him.
God knows the soul he is creating will damn itself to hell.
I hope you understand the dilemma of an all knowing and all good God.
An all good God could not will a soul into existence, knowing the soul will suffer eternally.
A
Amandil
Guest
So many strawmen…
987mk:
987mk:
If the soul is so depraved that to possess the belief that an eternity devoid if bliss is more preferable to an eternity of bliss with God, then the fault is with the soul, not God.
987mk:
Your a creature, you can’t, and your ability to know is necessarily finite.
So it’s rather absurd to posit something as a dilemma when you necessarily cannot see the ends for which God creates.
987mk:
Without God there would be no souls, period. To assume otherwise begs the question.
So. This knowledge does not preclude the soul’s choice.
Non-sequitur. God creates a soul for the purpose if living with Him in eternity.
If the soul is so depraved that to possess the belief that an eternity devoid if bliss is more preferable to an eternity of bliss with God, then the fault is with the soul, not God.
It’s no dilemma at all. God creates a soul based upon it’s own goodness and dignity and not for any thought of His own glory or your personal views of Him. He’s God, He can do what He likes, and His knowledge is infinitely greater than yours.
Your a creature, you can’t, and your ability to know is necessarily finite.
So it’s rather absurd to posit something as a dilemma when you necessarily cannot see the ends for which God creates.
You’re begging the question again.
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Amandil
Guest
A
Amandil
Guest
“Poisoned chocolate” is simply a terrible analogy.
And you forgot about the role the Tempter.
Adam and Eve were not “children”. They were created in the fullness of their being and given knowledge and freedom commensurate with their status.
They knew what the “poisoned chocolate” was, knew it was poisoned, and they knew that they shouldn’t have eaten it.
Yet they ate it anyway.
You eat that same “poisoned chocolate” every time you commit a sin, every time you do something that you know that you ought not to be doing.
You’re going to argue that you doing what you ought not to be doing is not your fault?
Spare me.
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987mk
Guest
All I am saying is that souls are in hell because God forced them into existence and then forces them to exist in torment for eternity, for the crime of not loving him.
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987mk
Guest
Before God creates the soul, he knows the soul isn’t going to live with him for eternity. God knows the soul is going to HELL for eternity.
R
ready
Guest
God still we be honored and glorified no matter what, and this is the most important thing – and the most important thing to remember. I suppose we could say that His divine Justice gets honored and glorified by what happens to reprobates. God bless you.
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Amandil
Guest
The suggestion is absurd and based upon a flawed anthropology.
Man is not created simply to be an autonomous individual, his/her own absolute, to live and do as he/she pleases.
Any person who has tried to live such an existence (and I have) is an utterly miserabe creature.
God created man (male and female) for Himself first and for others second. We were made to need God and others.
The purpose of the forbidden fruit was to demonstrate our necessity for God and the reliance upon His goodness.
Adam and Eve thought that they could be “gods” apart from God, and it led the entire human race to where we are now.
God then provides a way out, not simply to restore us to Adam and Eve’s status in original justice, but to take us further than we could ever even dreamed of.
Those who choose hell are those that want themselves to be their own absolutes. The result of making yourself and absolute is that the very thing which you sought in making yourself an absolute is what you absolutely lose-your own freedom and individuality.
God’s promise is that when you turn yourself wholly over to Him in love and faith, not only do you gain eternal life (which is what we were originally destined for to begin with), but the very thing that we gave away in service to Him-our freedom and individuality, He will return to us in spades.
You’d be a fool not to see the difference.
- Status