Is it God's fault people go to hell?

[davidv]

To my knowledge, in the story, Adam did not repent and God kicked him out of the garden, which was necessary for Gods master plan.

If Adam didn’t eat the Apple, then there’d be no Jesus.

If God hadn’t put the tree and the serpent in the garden, there’d be no Jesus.

God knew Adam would sin before he even created Adam.

God knew all of this, which makes the part of the story where God acts all disappointed, really kinda weird, as God is clearly play acting, as he can’t act disappointed, as he already knew what was going to happen.

It’s also strange the authors portrayed God not being able to find Adam in the garden. Which is an odd way to frame an all knowing God.

It is apparent in this post that you don’t understand what you have read in Genesis.
Not all of Adam’s and Eve’s lives are recorded there.
Why do you think God intend for them to fail? It is not evident in the text.
Again - How can God have a before and after?

 

[Slaney]

If God hadn’t put the tree and the serpent in the garden, there’d be no Jesus.

Not true, God said He would send His only Son, so He always had to have been there, His Son was the Word, it’s just that the Word had no need to be manifested in the flesh until man fell for the lies of satan.

 

[987mk]

It is apparent in this post that you don’t understand what you have read in Genesis.
Not all of Adam’s and Eve’s lives are recorded there.
Why do you think God intend for them to fail? It is not evident in the text.
Again - How can God have a before and after?

I know you do not believe God has a before and after, but Adam has a before and an after.

There was a time before Adam came into existence.

 

[987mk]

Not true, God said He would send His only Son, so He always had to have been there, His Son was the Word, it’s just that the Word had no need to be manifested in the flesh until man fell for the lies of satan.

Jesus wouldn’t have had to die if God hadn’t set everything into motion exactly how he knew it would play out.

God is the prime mover.

 

[davidv]

I know you do not believe God has a before and after, but Adam has a before and an after.

As an eternal being who is pure act, God does not change and is not in time, as time is a measure of change.

There was a time before Adam came into existence.

So? What is your point? Timelessness applies to God not Adam.

 

[987mk]

As an eternal being who is pure act, God does not change and is not in time, as time is a measure of change.

So? What is your point? Timelessness applies to God not Adam.

My point is that God’s creation has been a complete and utter failure.

The worst part?

He forced us into existence and then punishes us for eternity for not loving him.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

[SIGN][/SIGN]No. God gave us the best gift out of His Love for us… Free Will

The ones in hell are there because of their own choices.

God predestines no one to hell.

Did God know at the moment of creation what the outcome of his creation would be?

 

[Slaney]

Jesus wouldn’t have had to die if God hadn’t set everything into motion exactly how he knew it would play out.

God is the prime mover.

Most likely the dispute betwen God & Lucifer had happened before God created mankind. We don’t know it all, we know very little, as the Bible says they mock what they don’t understand. Understand this, Jesus is the word became flesh, the word was always there, God always was, & always will be, the Alpha & Omega, the beginning & the end !

 

[Slaney]

Jesus wouldn’t have had to die if God hadn’t set everything into motion exactly how he knew it would play out.

God is the prime mover.

Did you say the word wouldn’t have had to have been made flesh ?

 

[davidv]

My point is that God’s creation has been a complete and utter failure.

I think you have painted too broad a brush. I insist that you prove this statement.

The worst part?

He forced us into existence and then punishes us for eternity for not loving him.

Non sequitur.

God does not punish us. We punish ourselves by choosing counterfeit goods.

 

[John_Martin]

But Eve and Adam had no knowledge of good and evil, so they cannot be blamed for listening to the snake–whom they automatically trusted. The snake made sense. It was good fruite and pretty and tasty.

Like today, when the Catholic church says that “ignorance” of the church means a person cannot be blamed for not following the church.
Same diff with Eve and Adam. Not to blame.

.

That is interesting…
Didn’t Adam and Eve sew fig leaves together to cover themselves, as if there was something blameworthy about themselves?
And I thought I read that Adam and Eve hid when they heard God in the garden, as if they had done something wrong.
And then there is God, after they “pass the blame” (Adam passes it to Eve, who directs God’s attention to the serpent), I thought God’s next words were, “Because you have done this…(then the results)” Doesn’t the word “because” imply “blame” anymore?

And “ignorance of the church” equals Adam and Eve’s ignorance?
It seems that Adam and Eve heard directly from God, so they were not ignorant of Him. That He said in plain “Adam and Eve Language” (whatever language he gave them), “Don’t eat of this tree or you will die”. And the Serpent countered with, “You will not die”.
Adam and Eve were not “guilty of knowing good and evil” (which they did not know about), but were guilty of Eating what they were commanded not to eat.

 

[John_Martin]

Honestly, if hell turns out to be real, it would be far better for nothing to exist, than for the absolute vast majority of Gods children to have been created, only to end up in hell.

After all, if we didn’t exist, we wouldn’t know about it.

Without God, there is no hell.

God knows that the baby he just created, is going to one day end up for eternity in hell, but God created that baby anyway.

God created a person to live for a short period of time on earth, knowing that that person will spend eternity in hell.

That’s just cruel in my view.

987mk, former Catholic you have said about yourself in other posts, you are still a Catholic even when you decide to walk ahead of Jesus or away from him. You are one of the Baptized.

The God of Catholics is, as you stated, the “prime mover”, knowing all. Yet you did not finish your description of this God. He is “Love” - complete Love, through and through, for us, for you, for everyone who will be with him in Paradise, for everyone who will be in Hell, for all the angels, good and bad, for Satan himself.

How can Love and Hell stand side by side?
Because Hell is not what you think it is. Hell is the appearance of reality to those there. They have all kinds of desires, hungers, and want satisfaction, but everything around them looks ugly and unsatisfying, and on fire. Why? because it was made by God whom they do not love. In “heaven”, we will have all kinds of desires and hungers that are fully satisfied in the sight of all that is around us. Why? because it was made by God whom we do love.

Here today, we look on something ugly and despicable, and love it - the cross, and Jesus dead there with his blood drained out, and we “take and eat”, we “take and drink” of what is in appearance ugly and unsatisfying for our hunger for life. Others despise the ugliness, and instead make things that appear beautiful and satisfying to consume for living in satisfaction.

Those things they make will not be around after death, then, at that point, the only things available will be what come from God. And they will be infinitely dreadful to those who do not want any part of God but only what they can fashion for themselves.
Yet God Loves them - setting all goodness out in front of them.

You know all this - that there is a call to you to “come follow me”, “Come, take and eat”, “Come take and drink”. Let go of a theoretical argument meant to confuse you from loving this God; it is the same argument used by Satan to lure Adam and Eve into thinking God is being deceptive and being arrogant. Let go of this argument that the world uses to paint God as ugly and evil and therefore a reason for not eating the fruit of the ugly tree (the Cross). You are one of the Elect (you were chosen and baptized by the Church), do not give up your sanctification.

 

[ready]

If God creates each one of us choosing our particular environments and conditions into which we’re born, knowing full well the consequences of each of our actions and being able to foresee our ultimate fate, then does he send us to hell? Kind of like a car manufacturer building a faulty car

Thanks

God gives each one of us all the graces we need to be saved (sufficient grace), so we have nobody but ourselves and our abuse of free will to blame should we end up in hell. God wills our salvation, He does not will our eternal condemnation, what becomes of us depends on our use of our free will. If we abuse it, we will pay for it in this life and in purgatory if necessary, or we will pay for it in this life and eternally in hell – it’s that simple. God bless you.

 

[987mk]

If hell is my choice, then I’ll just choose to change my mind when I die and instead go wherever I want.

I’m glad it’s a real choice that only I get to make, because I’ll just choose not to go to hell.

 

[davidv]

If hell is my choice, then I’ll just choose to change my mind when I die and instead go wherever I want.

I’m glad it’s a real choice that only I get to make, because I’ll just choose not to go to hell.

If you want these to be more than empty words, the walk has to match the talk.

 

[987mk]

If you want these to be more than empty words, the walk has to match the talk.

If it is my choice, I’ll just choose not to go.

If I’m prevented from making the choice, then it’s not my choice.

You want your cake and want to eat it.

 

[Amandil]

If it is my choice, I’ll just choose not to go.

If I’m prevented from making the choice, then it’s not my choice.

You want your cake and want to eat it.

You clearly don’t have much of an idea of the nature of the choice or the consequences of a lifetime of disordered egocentrism and self-will…

 

[987mk]

You clearly don’t have much of an idea of the nature of the choice or the consequences of a lifetime of disordered egocentrism and self-will…

The Judge sentences the thief, the thief does not set his own sentence.

 

[davidv]

The Judge sentences the thief, the thief does not set his own sentence.

They chose to steal, and must accept the consequence of the judgement.

 

[John_Martin]

If hell is my choice, then I’ll just choose to change my mind when I die and instead go wherever I want.

I’m glad it’s a real choice that only I get to make, because I’ll just choose not to go to hell.

The choice is not of going to heaven or hell, the choice is to love God or to love something else.
What do you love that you want nothing more than to be united to it and can’t be happy without being united to it?