A
Amandil
Guest
There is no “before” with God.
Nor does His knowledge dictate the soul’s choice. To see someone do a thing is not to make them do it.
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Nor does His knowledge dictate the soul’s choice. To see someone do a thing is not to make them do it.
J
John_Martin
Guest
You DO love something, and that is your “choice” - you are Never in a state of “not having chosen”, as with a black car or white car or red car.
You are always, in life, driving the car you love; you are never at a dealership as if you did not have a car. Seeing, and then loving, and then “Choosing” a different car means jumping out of your current car as that different one passes by going the opposite direction.
Right now you are loving your (perceived) eternal provider of what you consider good. That is your condition as human.
You are always, in life, driving the car you love; you are never at a dealership as if you did not have a car. Seeing, and then loving, and then “Choosing” a different car means jumping out of your current car as that different one passes by going the opposite direction.
Right now you are loving your (perceived) eternal provider of what you consider good. That is your condition as human.
J
josh987654321
Guest
Jesus to Catalina:Of course people are responsible for their actions.
But ultimately, God is the one who “decides” who goes to hell or not, He has the power, and he chooses.
http://s24.postimg.org/s91lh9u91/Crucifixion.jpgThe Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf
Contemplate My wounds and see if there is anyone who has suffered as much as I, to show their love…
Jesus to Catalina:
Heaven really is this simple.The Great Crusade of Mercy - loveandmercy.org/Eng-CM-Reg.pdf
3) If you love, it is because I loved you first; just as I am Love. Whoever knows how to love remains in Me and I in him.
Genesis 1:1So while “fault” may not be the correct word…God made hell and decides who goes there.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Evil:
Paraphrased from C.S. Lewis' book 'Mere Christianity':The professor of a university challenged his students with this question. “Did God create everything that exists?” A student answered bravely, “Yes, he did”.
The professor then asked, "If God created everything, then he created evil. Since evil exists (as noticed by our own actions), so God is evil. The student couldn’t respond to that statement causing the professor to conclude that he had “proved” that “belief in God” was a fairy tale, and therefore worthless.
Another student raised his hand and asked the professor, "May I pose a question? " “Of course” answered the professor.
The young student stood up and asked : “Professor does Cold exist?”
The professor answered, “What kind of question is that? …Of course the cold exists… haven’t you ever been cold?”
The young student answered, “In fact sir, Cold does not exist. According to the laws of Physics, what we consider cold, in fact is the absence of heat. Anything is able to be studied as long as it transmits energy (heat). Absolute Zero is the total absence of heat, but cold does not exist. What we have done is create a term to describe how we feel if we don’t have body heat or we are not hot.”
“And, does Dark exist?”, he continued. The professor answered “Of course”. This time the student responded, “Again you’re wrong, Sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in fact simply the absence of light. Light can be studied, darkness cannot. Darkness cannot be broken down. A simple ray of light tears the darkness and illuminates the surface where the light beam finishes. Dark is a term that we humans have created to describe what happens when there’s lack of light.”
Finally, the student asked the professor, “Sir, does evil exist?” The professor replied, “Of course it exists, as I mentioned at the beginning, we see violations, crimes and violence anywhere in the world, and those things are evil.”
The student responded, “Sir, Evil does not exist. Just as in the previous cases, Evil is a term which man has created to describe the result of the absence of God’s presence in the hearts of man.”
If God is omnipotent and omniscient, is the existence of Satan in accordance with his will? If it is, he is a strange God, you will say: and if it is not, how can anything happen contrary to the will of a being with absolute power? But anyone who has been in authority knows how a thing can be in accordance with your will in one way and not in another. You make a thing voluntary and than half the people do not do it. That is not what you willed, but your will has made it possible. It’s the same in the universe. God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot.
If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata-of creatures that worked like machines-would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for his higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they must be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth it. Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with him. But there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes; you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream could rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on. If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will-that is, for making a live world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings-then we may take it it is worth paying.
^^We, as humans, can’t even decide and don’t even know exactly what hell is, it seems.
It’s God’s domain.
.
I hope this has helped
God Bless
Thank you for reading
Josh
R
ready
Guest
Thanks! This makes sense and is true, and helps us out a whole lot in this particular discussion. God bless you.There is no “before” with God.
9
987mk
Guest
There is no before with God?Thanks! This makes sense and is true, and helps us out a whole lot in this particular discussion. God bless you.
Even the Bible says there was a beginning, as was posted above.
*Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. *
Cake and eating it.
A
Amandil
Guest
In the beginning as in the beginning of time.There is no before with God?
Even the Bible says there was a beginning, as was posted above.
*Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. *
Cake and eating it.
Eternity is outside of time, not “in” time.
Eternity encompasses all time and has no beginning or end. Time is the measurement we use to denote change.
Eternity exists as a simultaneous whole, eternity is immutable, there is no change in eternity.
Therefore there is no time in eternity.
There’s no such “cake and eating it”, it’s you not be able to grasp basic distinctions between words.
Therefore there is no “before” in eternity.
B
belorg
Guest
Originally Posted by Evil, the Absence of Good
N
NormalBeliever
Guest
‘‘God knew Adam would eat the apple, but went ahead and left the tree there anyway.’’God knew Adam would eat the apple, but went ahead and left the tree there anyway.
Would a loving parent leave a box of poisoned chocolate in a child’s room, telling them not to eat the chocolate or they’ll die?
Then when the child eats the chocolate and dies, all the blame is put on the child?
Lol no.
Everyone would agree, the parent should not have left the poison in their child’s room, as they should have known their child would eat the chocolate.
In the case of God, it wasn’t something he should have known…it was a known certainty, but he did it anyway.
One explanation is that God wanted Adam and Eve to freely choose God,not to always stay with him because they cannot disobey him at all.
Also,once again,you are pushing the blame towards God.
Yes,God knew they would disobey him,but how is this God’s responsibility?
It is Adam and Eve who choose to go against God,God had absolutely nothing to do with their free choice.
He might know everything,but omniscience does not equal predicting or setting up and controling what will happen.
‘‘Would a loving parent leave a box of poisoned chocolate in a child’s room, telling them not to eat the chocolate or they’ll die?’’
Here we go with the faulty almost semi-biased analogies.
Now,the apples are not chocolate.
The apples are not tasty by nature.
Adam and Eve trusted God not to eat the apples when he said they would die because they weren’t everyday normal humans that is in their nature to fall for evil.
However,the Serpent told them they would not die.
He told them they would be like Gods.
Keep in mind Adam and Eve were tempted not just by someone saying they wouldn’t die…but that they would be like gods.
The promise of power here is not and cannot in any way equal the promise of something earthly as mere chocolate in this context.
With the promise of power,Adam and Eve had the choice…eather trust a serpent they met for the first time,or trust God.
They had both options available.
It was up to them whom they were going to trust…
‘‘Then when the child eats the chocolate and dies, all the blame is put on the child?’’
Keep in mind God is not in any way comparable to a parent.
He is beyond that.
Adam and Eve knew God much better then anyone of us could know.
It was much more then mere earthly parently connection,which makes your analogy look like a comparison of God to earthly material.
They trusted God,the creator of everything,but then a serpent shows up saying they would be Gods if they ate it…and from that moment it was up to them alone…whom they are going to trust.
Give me one valid reason to compare Adam and Eve’s special personal relationship with God that no other man ever had since the Fall to something imperfect and earthly.
‘‘Everyone would agree, the parent should not have left the poison in their child’s room, as they should have known their child would eat the chocolate.’’
The thing is,the relationship with God they had was much more then simple parently relationship.
They trusted when God told them they would die.And they choose to follow God.
But when someone says something different from God’s own promise…contradicts God’s commands…they are tempted…
Again…it was their choice whom they are going to trust:
Either God,who is perfect and gave Adam and Eve an immense relationship with him,and also gave them much more knowledge then we had.
Or a serpent who says the direct opposite of the perfect God but makes it a promise of power.
…Adam and Eve had all the information about God,and the superior knowledge God gave them,knowledge surpassing any earthly analogy you could think of,and had free will.
It was their choice,knowing full well who God was and what he said,and knowing what the serpent said…
N
NormalBeliever
Guest
You seem to be repeating your argument.Without God, there would be no souls eternally damned to hell.
God knows the soul he is creating will be damned to hell at the end of the souls bodily life.
God creates the soul anyway.
God creates the soul.
God knows the soul will end up in hell.
God creates a soul for the purpose of eternal damnation.
God knows the soul will not choose him.
God knows the soul he is creating will damn itself to hell.
I hope you understand the dilemma of an all knowing and all good God.
An all good God could not will a soul into existence, knowing the soul will suffer eternally.
‘‘Without God, there would be no souls eternally damned to hell.’’
Again,the very basis for your argument is that God is somehow connected to our own responsibility of a free choice.
This simply is not the case.
‘‘God knows the soul he is creating will be damned to hell at the end of the souls bodily life.’’
It is our choice that we do that.
Why should God be responsible for our choice?
‘‘God creates a soul for the purpose of eternal damnation.’’
This is a completely baseless assertion.
God creates the soul,and the soul chooses what to do and if it will follow God.
The soul chooses it’s future.
God has no responsibility for our own actions.
‘‘An all good God could not will a soul into existence, knowing the soul will suffer eternally’’
How is this God’s fault?
No really?How?
God creates a soul.And the soul chooses if it will ignore God.
The soul chooses Hell.God simply has no responsibility for our free choice which is **our responsibility **
N
NormalBeliever
Guest
Logically:Before God creates the soul, he knows the soul isn’t going to live with him for eternity. God knows the soul is going to HELL for eternity.
Knowing does not equal Acting In Reality
God knows a soul will go to Hell.
That is not his problem.The soul chooses it’s path.God does not do that.God is not responsible at all for our own and only our own responsibility.
J
josh987654321
Guest
Please read the second quote too.To which the professor replied, “If you build a brick wall and leave out some bricks to from a hole in the wall, then, since the hole is merely an absense of bricks, it doesn’t actually exist. But would you say that you, as a builder, created this hole?”
The student responded, “Yes, I created this hole”
To which the professor replied, “Q.E.D.”
God Bless
Thank you for reading
Josh
R
ready
Guest
There was a beginning to things created – only to things created. But God is not someone created and does not experience space and time like things created. For Him everything exists in a great “now,” so to speak. Past, present and future are something that we creatures experience in time, but God exists outside of time and does not have the same experience. God bless you.There is no before with God?
Even the Bible says there was a beginning, as was posted above.
*Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. *
Cake and eating it.
B
belorg
Guest
I decided to deal with the first quote first. It’s obvious that evil, even defiend as an absense, is the creation of God.Please read the second quote too.
God Bless
Thank you for reading
Josh
The second quote actually acknoledges that but gives a “reason” why God created evil. It is a rather sloppy kind of free will defense.The “God doesn’t want robots” kind.
But that doesn’t work the way Lewis wants it to for at least wo reasons.
The first one is that the kind of free will required for hell to be just is simply impossible under any world view.
The second reason is that, C.S. Lewis claims he cannot imagine “creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong”. I have no idea why he says that. Obviously, according to C.S. Lewis, God is free but has no possibility of going wrong. I realize that God isn’t “a creature” but if we can imagine a being who is free but has no possibility of going wrong, imagining a creature with the same qualities doesn’t seem so hard to do.
9
987mk
Guest
In your system of believe, your God has made it abundantly clear that nothing that transpires is his problem.That is not his problem.
We are without a doubt, on our own.
N
NormalBeliever
Guest
Isn’t that then a hyperbole?In your system of believe, your God has made it abundantly clear that nothing that transpires is his problem.
We are without a doubt, on our own.
I said that God is not responsible for our free choice.
He is sometimes responsible for good things.But not for evil things.
There is a limit to how much he is inactive and vice versa.
E
Eternal_One
Guest
The student answered incorrectly.To which the professor replied, “If you build a brick wall and leave out some bricks to from a hole in the wall, then, since the hole is merely an absense of bricks, it doesn’t actually exist. But would you say that you, as a builder, created this hole?”
The student responded, “Yes, I created this hole”
To which the professor replied, “Q.E.D.”
The builder didnt create the hole, since he didnt punch a hole in the wall, remove any bricks, or swing a sledgehammer through the wall to create a hole. The builder was given an insufficient amount of bricks and he simply allowed the holes to exist in the walls without filling them in and proceeded to build the wall anyway. The builder may have called the brick makers several times to ship him more bricks so that the wall could be made whole, but the brick makers refused to send any. Whos fault is it that the holes exist, the brick makers or the builder?
Humans who are insufficient in their love and obedience arent being replaced with other bricks (humans) to fill their spot in the hole in the wall. Each one of us is a unique being and creation. We are the brick makers and if we wont respond to God’s call for our brick to fill in the holes, then that is our choice.
9
987mk
Guest
God forces a soul to live in a body on earth.Isn’t that then a hyperbole?
I said that God is not responsible for our free choice.
He is sometimes responsible for good things.But not for evil things.
There is a limit to how much he is inactive and vice versa.
( God knows that soul will end up in hell)
That soul is then forced by God to exist eternally in hell. I agree, the soul chose hell, but it is only God that has chosen to force that soul to exist forever. The soul didn’t choose to exist forever, that is 100% Gods choice.
If God had not created the soul, the soul would not choose hell and the soul would not suffer forever. **It is Gods will that the soul suffer in hell forever.
**
Nothing I have said is incorrect and not a single one of you has addressed this horror.
9
987mk
Guest
Wrong.Isn’t that then a hyperbole?
I said that God is not responsible for our free choice.
He is sometimes responsible for good things.But not for evil things.
There is a limit to how much he is inactive and vice versa.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
There is no question evil came into the world through his permission, for nothing can exist without God.
B
belorg
Guest
There is no mention anywhere in the professor’s analogy of an insufficient amount of bricks, so, the student’s answer was quite correct, and so was the professor’s conclusion.The student answered incorrectly.
The builder didnt create the hole, since he didnt punch a hole in the wall, remove any bricks, or swing a sledgehammer through the wall to create a hole. The builder was given an insufficient amount of bricks and he simply allowed the holes to exist in the walls without filling them in and proceeded to build the wall anyway. The builder may have called the brick makers several times to ship him more bricks so that the wall could be made whole, but the brick makers refused to send any. Whos fault is it that the holes exist, the brick makers or the builder?
Humans who are insufficient in their love and obedience arent being replaced with other bricks (humans) to fill their spot in the hole in the wall. Each one of us is a unique being and creation. We are the brick makers and if we wont respond to God’s call for our brick to fill in the holes, then that is our choice.
E
Eternal_One
Guest
If there arent enough bricks to fill the wall, wouldn’t you say that is an insufficient amount of bricks?There is no mention anywhere in the professor’s analogy of an insufficient amount of bricks, so, the student’s answer was quite correct, and so was the professor’s conclusion.
How else would the spaces be left unfilled? There was no mention of the builder punching a hole in the wall or taking bricks out, so how do they come to the conclusion that the builder purposely made a hole?
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