Is it heretical to pray that Jews continue to follow the Old Covenant?

[EasterJoy]

That is the problem, “in the same sense” is being used to get to a legalism that denotes a return to the 613 Pharisaical laws for salvation. It seems to say that f this is followed by the faithful, we know exactly what we need to do for salvation and we can know we are saved, making our path a sure one based on doctrine.

The teachings of the Church to me lead me to the mystery of sanctifying grace and not as a set of laws some of which are clearly being used in a sense that lacks charity. There is absolutely a narrow road, a defined doctrine, and there is a false caricature of faith that is the result of not doing the Will of the Father but our own will.

The narrow road is a spiritual path that defines our actions in accordance with God’s revelation. The defined doctrine is that which keeps us from being fooled by a false spirit, even our own spirit. Doing the Will of the Father is so much more than doctrine as if we could look in a book and find what we are to do in a particular situation. This is the book that is being written by those who seemingly don’t trust the metaphysical but rely solely on the temporal sense of what the words of doctrine mean. It is leading to a very narrow definition of Catholic Christianity that replaces the mystical “Union with God” with doctrine as its heart and soul.

OK, try this. Let us say that some particular Jews lack the grace of faith to believe in Jesus Christ. Which of the following would be the best?

a) remain Jewish, continuing to identify with God’s chosen people and the practices of their ancestors, who look forward to the promised Messiah
b) switch to Islam, deciding that Jesus was one of the great prophets of God
c) decide that God does not exist, and settle in as contented atheists who do their best to make a contribution to humanity
d) decide that monotheistic religions are tribal expressions of a common human contact with a universal power that is the spirit-force in all humanity, and worship that spirit-force through a modern interpretation of Druidic and other spiritual “traditions” which reverenced the supernatural within the natural world.
e) decide that it is impossible to know anything of the spiritual world, and become an agnostic.
These (b-e) are all directions that Jews go, when they leave Judaism, not to mention those who remain nominally Jewish but who don’t make much of an effort when it comes to actually having a relationship to God. Becoming secular or Unitarian is by far more common than becoming Catholic. (A Jewish friend of mine told me this joke: "Did you hear Daniel died? His funeral is Friday? Really, where is it? The Unitarian Church. Unitarian, really? I didn’t know Daniel was Jewish.)

Should we not pray that this doesn’t happen to them? God will save all Israel, by bringing them to Christ and by that means alone. If they’re not joining us, they need to stay where they are.

It is like being lost in the woods and not seeing which path to take: I think it is pretty clear that a Jew who does not convert to Catholicism does best to stay put, and I don’t see a thing wrong with praying that way. And remember: we do pray on Good Friday that those who don’t believe in Christ will come to the faith. We don’t leave that out. We just don’t single out the Jews as being in need of it.

But again: it does not matter how I see it. It matters that the Holy Father sees it this way, and that this way of seeing it is not heretical. It is within the Holy Father’s pastoral office to approach the problem as our past 3 Popes have. It is not heresy. You may not like it, you are free to say so, but they do rightly have the authority to what they’re doing..

 

[Walking_Home]

I agree. No one has said anything different, not even John Paul II. What he said was that through some mysterious act of grace, the Jewish people are still connected to the Church so that salvation does come through the Church and does reach them, even in their current imperfect state. He did not change the dogma. He explained it more clearly. What he wrote in a different way of understanding this great truth about salvation within the Church.

2. No one is unaware of the challenge which all this poses to believers. They cannot fail to meet this challenge. Indeed, how could they refuse to do everything possible, with God’s help, to break down the walls of division and distrust, to overcome obstacles and prejudices which thwart the proclamation of the Gospel of salvation in the Cross of Jesus, the one Redeemer of man, of every individual?

"the Church is not a reality closed in on herself. Rather, she is permanently open to missionary and ecumenical endeavour, for she is sent to the world to announce and witness, to make present and spread the mystery of communion which is essential to her, and to gather all people and all things into Christ, so as to be for all an ‘inseparable sacrament of unity’ ".

Indeed, the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities, in a degree which varies from one to the other, constitute the objective basis of the communion, albeit imperfect, which exists between them and the Catholic Church.

To the extent that these elements are found in other Christian Communities, the one Church of Christ is effectively present in them.

These are points that Jon Paul II made claer in Ut Unum Sint.

Now there is another area that has to be attended to by us Catholics. I found this simple but helpful summary on CAF.

**Note that word dogma. This teaching has been proclaimed by, among others, Pope Pelagius in 585, the Fourth Lateran Council in 1214, Pope Innocent III in 1214, Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, Pope Pius XII, Pope Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Dominus Iesus.

Our point is this: When the Church infallibly teaches extra ecclesiam, nulla salus, it does not say that non-Catholics cannot be saved. In fact, it affirms the contrary. The purpose of the teaching is to tell us how Jesus Christ makes salvation available to all human beings**.

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

These are worth reading, because they are very helpful.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

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Where in Unum Sint did John Paul II say —salvation comes to the Jews in their current imperfect state.

By the way—it is interesting how you plainly overlook what our current Pope said about the 12 being a call for all Israel to conversion into the New Covenant.

 

[JReducation]

Without denying what has been said in the past, the Church today adds the following message for us Catholics about the Jews.

**Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: “theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh” (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church’s main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ’s Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.

As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and “serve him shoulder to shoulder” (Soph. 3:9).(12) **

Nostra Aetate

Here is the mystery of which I posted before and which we do not know when it will be fulfilled, but is part of the faith of the Church that it will happen.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

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Where in Unum Sint did John Paul II say —salvation comes to the Jews in their current imperfect state.

By the way—it is interesting how you plainly overlook what our current Pope said about the 12 being a call for all Israel to conversion into the New Covenant.

I did not ignore what the Holy Father said. You had already stated it. Why should I repeat it? It would be redundant.

As to Ut Unum Sint, the point is that what the Holy Father says can be applied across the board to all people of faith. We do not need to have everything spelled out for us. We must use reason too. That was one thing that we were always taught in the seminary and in graduate school. Many things we understand through reasoning out what has been handed down to us. And I studied at one of the most orthodox theological schools in the world.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Walking_Home]

I did not ignore what the Holy Father said. You had already stated it. Why should I repeat it? It would be redundant.

A**s to Ut Unum Sint, the point is that what the Holy Father says can be applied across the board to all people of faith. ** We do not need to have everything spelled out for us. We must use reason too. That was one thing that we were always taught in the seminary and in graduate school. Many things we understand through reasoning out what has been handed down to us. And I studied at one of the most orthodox theological schools in the world.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

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Actually no JR—what you have done is applied your “ideology” to Unum Sint. And your “ideology” sharply contrasts God’s call to all mankind --to conversion to Christ and His Church.

 

[JReducation]

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Actually no JR—what you have done is applied your “ideology” to Unum Sint. And your “ideology” sharply contrasts God’s call to all mankind --to conversion to Christ and His Church.

I don’t think I have. But since you have decided to become my prosecuter, judge and jury, I have no defense.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Seamus_L]

“there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved”
That's what I'd say to a Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist or Pope.

 

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post
Actually no JR—what you have done is applied your “ideology” to Unum Sint. And your “ideology” sharply contrasts God’s call to all mankind --to conversion to Christ and His Church.

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Again no JR–you have on your own made your bed.

 

[JReducation]

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Again no JR–you have on your own made your bed.

If that is your final judgment, I will respect it and respectfully disagree. I’m not here to defend myself. That is not our mission or our charism. Thank you for your feedback and your concern.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

“there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved”

                        That's what I'd say to a Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist or Pope.

This is Truth. It must be shared with charity and through example.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

It is like being lost in the woods and not seeing which path to take: I think it is pretty clear that a Jew who does not convert to Catholicism does best to stay put, and I don’t see a thing wrong with praying that way.

But again: it does not matter how I see it. It matters that the Holy Father sees it this way, and that this way of seeing it is not heretical. It is within the Holy Father’s pastoral office to approach the problem as our past 3 Popes have. It is not heresy. You may not like it, you are free to say so, but they do rightly have the authority to what they’re doing…

It may help to say that I was agreeing with you in regards to Mr. Una Fides post and his interpretation of doctrine, as you point out, and my contention that some are in the act of interpreting the teachings of the Church instead of implementing them in “Union with God” that we are called to by prayer and sacrifice, which is the message of the Gospel.

I did not ignore what the Holy Father said. You had already stated it. Why should I repeat it? It would be redundant.

As to Ut Unum Sint, the point is that what the Holy Father says can be applied across the board to all people of faith. We do not need to have everything spelled out for us. We must use reason too. That was one thing that we were always taught in the seminary and in graduate school. Many things we understand through reasoning out what has been handed down to us. And I studied at one of the most orthodox theological schools in the world.

Those who call the teachings of the Church “vague” must need it spelled out for them. My addition to this is we need “Union with God” in prayer and meditation with sacrifice and humility to come to a full realization of this.

Actually no JR—what you have done is applied your “ideology” to Unum Sint. And your “ideology” sharply contrasts God’s call to all mankind --to conversion to Christ and His Church.

This is an interpretation and is a good example of judging based on very little evidence (like words on a screen, an ideology of the TV generation). Truth is not words, it is the Word, Jesus. The words change, the Word doesn’t. It seems that those without the Word, need words. It wasn’t the law that brought life but the spirit. Romans 7:6 But now we are loosed from the law of death, wherein we were detained; so that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

“there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved”

That’s what I’d say to a Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist or Pope.

By saying it to the pope, endowed with the keys to the kingdom, authority given by Christ Himself, and is “in persona Christi”, one is judging the pope, and thus Christ Himself, by ones personal interpretation.

Mr. Easter Joy has a point, it is better for the Jews to stay where they are than go off on a wrong path. What is offered them here is so little charity that it drives them away from the Love of Christ by hitting them with “personal interpretation of doctrine” pseudo-charity. I trust the practice of individuals more mirrors Jesus than the ideology presented here does.

 

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post
Actually no JR—what you have done is applied your “ideology” to Unum Sint. And your “ideology” sharply contrasts God’s call to all mankind --to conversion to Christ and His Church.

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One “ideology” promotes a form of indifferentism that hides that the Jews objectively are in a gravely deficient situation. It is like leaving them in the path of a speeding train—while waving to them–don’t worry you’ll be fine. In truth —we who have the Gospel of Life–our Lord Jesus Christ–should be calling out to Jews and everyone else—Here take hold of Him who is True life and salvation–and pull them out of the path of the speeding train.

Congregation for the Doctrin of the Faith
Declaration —Dominus Jesus

The Church and the other religions in relation to salvations.

1. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world,** but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another’”.**91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, **it is also certain that objectively speaking **they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92

 

[EasterJoy]

It may help to say that I was agreeing with you in regards to Mr. Una Fides post and his interpretation of doctrine…

I went back and re-read your post and see that I got your meaning backwards, for some unknown reason. Sorry about that.

PS I hate to discourage in any way such a civilized habit as using “Mr.”, but I’m female. Married, so either Ms. or Mrs. work fine.

“there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved”

That’s what I’d say to a Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist or Pope.

Since that is what the Pope already teaches, I don’t know why you’d feel a need to preach to him.

Are you putting yourself down in the group that holds that if he or she doesn’t formally become Catholic, it doesn’t matter whether a Jew becomes a Unitarian or a atheist, then? That is, do you hold that observance of the covenant as a Jew understands it is worth absolutely nothing, since it misses the covenant’s one and only fulfillment, so that there is no point whatever in praying that Jews grow in fidelity to the covenant? I can’t believe that.

It is like saying that it is worthless for a Muslim to pray or for a Buddhist to meditate or for a secular humanist to self-sacrifice in order to feed and cloth the poor, if they don’t have an understanding of the Holy Spirit and the Trinity that is complete. Seeing how spiritual practice can lead a Buddhist or a Muslim or even a secular humanist to a defacto imitation of Christ, so that all that remains for their total conversion is for the veil to be lifted, I cannot agree with a view that denies that. Not when the Lord described the Last Judgement in terms of “Lord, when did we see you hungry…?” For what Catholic ever fed the poor without knowing Who it was he or she was feeding? That passage alone makes it clear that God works in ways and that Jesus Christ will bring humanity to Himself in ways that are beyond us. Ever knee shall bend, yes it will, but the Lord Himself said plainly that there will be some surprises!

If a Jew is given the faith to accept Christ, he needs to do that. If not, it is by far the best that he live the faith and grace he does have with all his being, until the Lord sees fit to lift the veil, as He did for St. Paul. In the meantime, those of us who see more should be aware that more will be expected on that account. We should be throwing mercy at the world with both hands, for who needs mercy more than we do?

 

[Walking_Home]

Pope Benedict XVI’s message, dated June 29, feast of Sts. Peter and Paul

“We Should Have a Longing and a Passion to Illumine All Peoples With the Light of Christ”

“The nations will walk in its light” (Rev 21:24)

It is in this perspective that the disciples of Christ spread throughout the world work, struggle and groan under the burden of suffering, offering their very lives. I strongly reiterate what was so frequently affirmed by my venerable Predecessors: the Church works not to extend her power or assert her dominion, but to lead all people to Christ, the salvation of the world. We seek only to place ourselves at the service of all humanity, especially the suffering and the excluded, because we believe that "the effort to proclaim the Gospel to the people of today… is a service rendered to the Christian community and also to the whole of humanity" (Evangelii Nuntiandi, 1), which “has experienced marvellous achievements but which seems to have lost its sense of ultimate realities and of existence itself” (Redemptoris Missio, 2).

All Peoples are called to salvation

This new beginning can already be seen in the resurrection and exaltation of Christ, who draws all things to himself, renewing them and enabling them to share in the eternal joy of God. The future of the new creation is already shining in our world and, despite contradictions and suffering, it enkindles hope for new life. The Church’s mission is to spread hope “contagiously” among all peoples. **This is why Christ calls, justifies, sanctifies and sends his disciples to proclaim the Kingdom of God, so that all nations **may become the People of God. It is only in this mission that the true journey of humanity is understood and attested. The universal mission should become a fundamental constant in the life of the Church. Proclamation of the Gospel must be for us, as it was for the Apostle Paul, a primary and unavoidable duty.
The universal Church, which knows neither borders nor frontiers, is aware of her responsibility to proclaim the Gospel to entire peoples (cf. Evangelii Nuntiandi, 53). It is the duty of the Church, called to be a seed of hope, to continue Christ’s service in the world. The measure of her mission and service is not material or even spiritual needs limited to the sphere of temporal existence, but instead, it is transcendent salvation, fulfilled in the Kingdom of God (cf. Evangelii Nuntiandi, 27). This Kingdom, although ultimately eschatological and not of this world (cfr Jn 18:36), is also in this world and within its history a force for justice and peace, for true freedom and respect for the dignity of every human person. **The Church wishes to transform the world through the proclamation of the Gospel of love, “that can always illuminate a world grown dim and give us the courage needed to keep living and working … and in this way … cause the light of God to enter into the world” **(Deus Caritas Est, 39). With this message I renew my invitation to all the members and institutions of the Church to participate in this mission and this service.
Missio ad gentes
The mission of the Church, therefore, is to call all peoples to the salvation accomplished by God through his incarnate Son. It is therefore necessary to renew our commitment to proclaiming the Gospel which is a leaven of freedom and progress, brotherhood, unity and peace (cf. Ad Gentes, 8). I would "confirm once more that the task of evangelizing all people constitutes the essential mission of the Church" (Evangelii Nuntiandi, 14), a duty and a mission which the widespread and profound changes in present-day society render ever more urgent. At stake is the eternal salvation of persons, the goal and the fulfilment of human history and the universe. Animated and inspired by the Apostle of the nations, we must realize that God has many people in all the cities visited by the apostles of today (cfr Acts 18:10). In fact “the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him” (Acts 2:39).
The whole Church must be committed to the missio ad gentes, until the salvific sovereignty of Christ is fully accomplished: “At present, it is true, we are not able to see that all things are in subjection to him” (Heb 2:8).

Participation in the mission of Christ is also granted to those who preach the Gospel, for whom is reserved the same destiny as their Master. “Remember the words I said to you: A servant is not greater than his master. **If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too” **(Jn 15:20). The Church walks the same path and suffers the same destiny as Christ, since she acts not on the basis of any human logic or relying on her own strength, but instead she follows the way of the Cross, becoming, in filial obedience to the Father, a witness and a travelling companion for all humanity.

May we be guided in our missionary activity by the Blessed Virgin Mary, Star of New Evangelization, who brought Christ into the world to be the light of the nations and to carry salvation “to the ends of the earth” (Acts 13:47).

To all I impart my Blessing.

From the Vatican, 29 June 2009

zenit.org/article-26794?l=english

 

[JReducation]

Pope Benedict XVI’s message, dated June 29, feast of Sts. Peter and Paul

“We Should Have a Longing and a Passion to Illumine All Peoples With the Light of Christ”

“The nations will walk in its light” (Rev 21:24)

I don’t see anyone on this thread saying that we should not pray for the Jews or that they posess the fulness of truth.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post
Pope Benedict XVI’s message, dated June 29, feast of Sts. Peter and Paul

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How “convenient” of you JR—to turn a blind eye/deaf ear— to the the core of the Pope’s message.

 

[chosen_people]

I don’t see anyone on this thread saying that we should not pray for the Jews or that they posess the fulness of truth.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Well actually there is a poster that thinks that Jews should not abandon their eternal covenant with God.

 

[diggerdomer]

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How “convenient” of you JR—to turn a blind eye/deaf ear— to the the core of the Pope’s message.

How is saying that one hasn’t noticed anyone on this thread saying:

(1) we should not pray for the Jews or
(2) The Jews have the fullness of salvation

turning a blind eye to Papal teaching? Has a Pope taught that we should not pray for the Jews, or that the Jews have the fullness of salvation?

 

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post

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The core of the Pope’s message is-- our essential universal mission of proclaiming the Gospel of Christ—evangelizing All nations, All people, bring humanity to sovereignty of Christ—fore the eternal salvation of peoples is at stake. This goes far beyond just praying for the Jews.

 

[diggerdomer]

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The core of the Pope’s message is-- our essential universal mission of proclaiming the Gospel of Christ—evangelizing All nations, All people, bring humanity to sovereignty of Christ—fore the eternal salvation of peoples is at stake. This goes far beyond just praying for the Jews.

So he wasn’t, then, turning a blind eye/deaf ear to the Pope’s teaching. Thanks.