Is it heretical to pray that Jews continue to follow the Old Covenant?

[una_fides]

CATECHISM OF POPE SAINT PIUS X
The Church in Particular
8 Q. What is the Catholic Church?
A. The Catholic Church is the Union or Congregation of all the baptised who, still living on earth, profess the same Faith and the same Law of Jesus Christ, participate in the same Sacraments, and obey their lawful Pastors, particularly the Roman Pontiff.
9 Q. State distinctly what is necessary to be a member of the Church?
A. To be a member of the Church it is necessary to be baptised, to believe and profess the teaching of Jesus Christ, to participate in the same Sacraments, and to acknowledge the Pope and the other lawful pastors of the Church.
…
27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.
28 Q. How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?
A. The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.
ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.htm

Now that Christ has come, all men, including the Jews, have the obligation to have faith in Christ and enter into his Church, which he has established as the sole ark of salvation.

Pope Boniface VIII. Unam Sanctam – 18 November 1302
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,’ and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed. papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm

 

[una_fides]

Current references that support the claim that Jews are faithless would be appreciated. Thanks.

From Vatican II, Nostra Aetate:
“As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10)”
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

The reference #10 is to Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sake

The Church clearly teaches today as always that the Jews do not have faith in Jesus Christ and therefore are indeed “faithless” in that regard. They have also been faithless throughout their history. In the Old Testament, the prophets, whom the Jews killed, denounced them and their works as evil and said that God would visit them with punishment, and indeed he has as a result of their faithlessness. Jews today react with the same anger that they did 2000 years ago when they are reminded of this continued faithlessness throughout their history. Interestingly, after Christ and his prophesied destruction of Jerusalem, the Jewish religion underwent some changes and has remained in that same condition of faithlessness concerning their Messiah ever since. We can focus on the bright side as much as we want, as Vatican II has done, but ultimately there are two sides to every coin, and preaching the uncomfortable truth will offend people. Stephen was stoned to death as a result and the apostles were martyred for their faith in the risen Christ. Until the day when the Jews accept Christ, we continue to pray for their conversion, not because we hate them or are angry at them, but because we love them and want what is best for them and every other human creature on earth.

 

[Walking_Home]

I think the analogy that you give is a good one. I would simply add this. As long as the Jewish people live up to the covenants that God made with Abraham, Noah and Moses, they will eventually end up in the New Covenant with through Jesus Christ. The covenants are interconnected. One leads to the other.

Those Jews who abandon their faith will suffer the same consequences as Christians who abandon their faith. We must be very careful not to get so smug as to believe that because wer are Christians we are always within the covenant. Nothing can be furrther fromt he truth. I’ll offer one simple example. ** A Christian who tolerates abortion is living outside of the Covenant and a Jew who is prolife is on the right track.
**
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

---

Both are on the Wrong track. One for tolerating abortion, the other for following in the same steps as those who during the time of Christ—walked away from Christ.

 

[JReducation]

---

Both are on the Wrong track. One for tolerating abortion, the other for following those who during the time of Christ—walked away from Christ.

The bold is mine

You have to be very careful here. Vatican II made it very clear that we Catholics are not to hold the Jews responsible for Christ’s death or for his betrayal. The Council was very clear that what happened to Christ was the action of a specific group of people, not the entire Jewish nation of then and now. Neither are guilty of turning from Christ, according to Vatican II. Check out Nostra Aetate.

Any Jew who practices his faith is on the right tract. Eventually, his faith will lead him into the covenant with Jesus Christ. This is the belief of Vatican II and the popes thereafter. That’s why the term faithless has a different meaning today from what it had in the past. In the past, it was referring ot those who did not have faith in Jesus Christ. Today it has a tendency to mean that the person has no faith at all. A practicing Jew is a person of faith and eventually either he or his posterity will discover the truth about Jesus Christ, because the covenant with Israel points the way to Christ. Thus, that person is on the right track, even if they are ot on the same schedule as the rest of us. The conversion of a faithful Israel is a matter of time, not a matter of “if”.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Abenadar]

Diggerdomer,

The teachings of the Church, even if they are almost 2000 years old, are, in fact “current”, because they do not change. Your request for a recent clarification is nonsense. Do you think the Church changed its teaching about the Jews since Vatican II??? This is inane and silly…The only people making that claim are (or at least “should be”) people who don’t understand that the Church doesn’t change its teachings.

If recent popes want to sort of create an ambiguity and side-step an issue…fine, that’s their problem. God will judge them. That, nevertheless, doesn’t mean the constant and perennial teaching has changed…It just means that the popes, instead of continuing to boldly proclaim the truth, rather make use of modern “political correctness” literally “for fear of the Jews”.

 

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post

---

Walked away from Christ they did, and those who follow in the same footsteps —do now.

Seems to be — there is quite a deal of “adapting” going on in your posts.

zenit.org/article-26663?l=english

Being Christian Is No Easy Task, Admits Pope

Says Christ’s Teachings Still Cause Scandal

It’s not easy being a Christian today, just as it wasn’t in Christ’s time, since the Lord asks believers to swim against the current in following his teachings, says Benedict XVI.

The Pope affirmed this today in an address to crowds gathered at the papal summer residence in Castel Gandolfo for the praying of the midday Angelus.

The Holy Father was reflecting on the Gospel reading from St. John for today’s Mass, which describes** how many of Christ’s followers abandoned him **because of his affirmation, “If you do not eat of the flesh of the Son of man or drink of his blood, you shall not have life within you.”

"Jesus, however, does not soften his statements," the Pontiff noted. “*ndeed, he turns to the Twelve directly and asks: ‘Do you also wish to leave?’”

Benedict XVI contended that this “provocative question” is not just for the Apostles, but also for the believers "of every age."

"Today too," he said, "not a few are scandalized by the paradox of the Christian faith. Jesus’ teaching seems ‘hard,’ too difficult to put into practice. There are thus those who reject it and abandon Christ; there are those who try to ‘adapt’ the word to the fashions of the times, distorting its meaning and value.

“‘Do you also wish to leave?’ This disturbing provocation resounds in our hearts and awaits a personal response from each person.”*

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Seems to be — there is quite a deal of “adapting” going on in your posts.

"Today too," he said, "not a few are scandalized by the paradox of the Christian faith. Jesus’ teaching seems ‘hard,’ too difficult to put into practice. There are thus those who reject it and abandon Christ; there are those who try to ‘adapt’ the word to the fashions of the times, distorting its meaning and value.

There is a huge difference between adapting and explaining. To not know the difference is to put any attempt to come to a fuller, more complete, more loving, sense of the truth in dire jeopardy. We do not, on this side of heaven, have the complete sense of truth and like growing from a child to adolescent to adult, we come to a fuller sense of the truth of God’s revelation. This is seen in light of the whole history of the Church, which Mr. JReducation seems to grasp.To think we have it perfectly now is to be perfectly wrong.

An example would be to change the meaning of original sin to fit modern ideologies related to behaviorism and is not the same thing as using behavior to come to a fuller sense of what original sin manifests itself as today. Adapting is clearly not what is going on here.

 

[Walking_Home]

There is a huge difference between adapting and explaining. To not know the difference is to put any attempt to come to a fuller, more complete, more loving, sense of the truth in dire jeopardy.** We do not, on this side of heaven, have the complete sense of truth and like growing from a child to adolescent to adult, we come to a fuller sense of the truth of God’s revelation. This is seen in light of the whole history of the Church, which Mr. JReducation seems to grasp.To think we have it perfectly now is to be perfectly wrong.**

An example would be to change the meaning of original sin to fit modern ideologies related to behaviorism and is not the same thing as using behavior to come to a fuller sense of what original sin manifests itself as today. Adapting is clearly not what is going on here.

---

Seems to be that the idea that truth “changes” or that truth cannot be known at any particular time – has been condemned by the Church.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Seems to be that the idea that truth “changes” or that truth cannot be known at any particular time – has been condemned by the Church.

Truth doesn’t change but we don’t have the fullness of it. Jesus is the Truth, until everything is reconciled to Him we don’t have Truth or Him in fullness.

From Lumen Gentium: For the Lord Jesus was with His apostles as He had promised (see Matt. 28:20) and sent them the advocate Spirit who would lead them into the fullness of truth (see John 16:13).

1. Sacred theology rests on the written word of God, together with sacred tradition, as its primary and perpetual foundation. By scrutinizing in the light of faith all truth stored up in the mystery of Christ, theology is most powerfully strengthened and constantly rejuvenated by that word.

Question 15 of the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
To whom is the Deposit of Faith entrusted?

  The Apostles entrusted the Deposit of Faith to the whole of the Church. Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith the people of God as a whole, assisted by the Holy Spirit and guided by the Magisterium of the Church, never ceases to welcome, **to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of Divine Revelation.**

boston-catholic-journal.com/the_fullness_of_truth_and_the_magisterium_of_the_Holy_Catholic_Church.htm

It is pride that makes us believe we have all the truth and cannot learn more. We must be open to the ever increasing fullness of Christ and this is the ever increasing fullness of the Truth, as Jesus is the Truth. This leads to holiness by the continuing rejection of sin in our lives by truth and grace.

 

[JReducation]

---

Walked away from Christ they did, and those who follow in the same footsteps —do now.

Seems to be — there is quite a deal of “adapting” going on in your posts.

But I’m not adapting anything. I’m explaining something to you. What the Holy Father says fits into this explanation. It is not always easy to follow the faith. It is a challenge. One of the greatest challenges that the faith places before us is the challenge to change and to grow in our understanding. In this case we have to grow in our understanding of what the Church teaches about the Jewish people. The Church teaches us that they are our older brothers and sisters in the faith. Were they a faithless people, they could not hold that place in the history of the Church or in salvation history. The Church does on teach that they have arrived at the fullness of truth, but only that they are a people of faith. For some reason, some people want to deny that using language that does not mean the same today as when it was used.

The excuse that these words were written in Latin does not hold water. At the time that they were used Latin was not a dead language. It was very much the language of Southern Europe. And as these words were translated into the modern languages they took on different meaning and even multiple meanings. We have to go back and understand them in the context that they were used so as not to commit a gross act of injustice toward an entire people. This is what Nostra Aetate warns us about, commiting an injustice among an entire group of people, in this case the Jews.

The Church has never denied that the covenants with Abraham, Noah and Moses lead to the covenant in and through Jesus Christ. Therefore, those who follow the Old Testament covenants faithfully will eventually find their way to Christ through the grace of God. Were we not to believe this then we would have to deny that the entire Old Testament is really about Jesus Christ. But if we believe that the OT is about Jesus Christ, then we must believe that those who followed the old covenant back then and those who continue to follow it faithfully will find Jesus Christ, since the covenant is about him.

The issue is not whether the Jews are a faithless people or not, but rather about the Jews finding Jesus in the covenants of Abraham, Noah and Moses just as the early Jewish Christians did. We must remember that God calls all men to himself through Jesus Christ, but this does not mean that all men arrive at the same time or that those who are at an earlier stage in the journey will not arrive at all. To believe that would be spiritual arrogance on our part. In that case we would not be preaching truth in charity.

That being said, I do not believe that the popes are being politically correct because they are afraid of the Jews. They are being theologically and pastorally correct, which is a big difference. This does not mean that their predecessors were not correct. What it means is that the words that their predecessors used do not have the same meaning today. To preserve the meaning and the message, the wording has to change. Observe, it is language that changes, not truth. In this case we’re not even speaking about doctrine or dogma. It is not a doctrine or a dogma that the Jews are faithless. This term is a descriptive term used to describe a group of people who have yet to receive the gift of faith in Christ. Let us not forget that great doctrine. Faith is a gift, not something that man can turn on and off at will. The gift is given in the measure that the person can handle it and in a manner that the person can understand it and live up to it. The great saints recognized this. This is what made them great saints. They understood that not everyone is given the same degree of faith and not at the same time either or the same intensity. Look at the writings of Teresa of Avila for a deeper understanding of how the gift of faith is given in degrees and in stages and how it varies from person to person, not only from nation to nation.

Following the theology of someone like Teresa of Avila, we can then understand that the Jewish people have been given faith in God, his commandments, his word, and that part of revelation that they understand. We can also understand that they still have not received the gift of a fuller and deeper faith in Christ, but that God in his mercy will grant that grace on his time table, not our own. Thus when we pray for the Jewish people, we pray that God will remember his promise to them and will grant them the grace of faith to see the the meaning of Christ.

Our attitude toward the Jews must be the same as it is toward anyone who does not have our level of understanding and our level of faith, one of solicitude and patience, not condescension by using language that is offensive and does ot inspire them to seek to understand our faith. Our holy father Francis always taught his brothers and sisters that change in others is brought about by change in ourselves. The more humble we are, the more others will want to know about the source of our detachment from our own ideas and our own desires and our own self-importance. That source is always Jesus Christ. So to bring Jews or others to our faith, we must take to heart the lessons of saints like Francis of Assisi and detach from our self-importance. Being a Christian makes us less important, not more. It makes us less significant compared to others not more. It makes us servants and slaves to all, not masters of any. This great truth is what made Francis and other men and women in the history of the Church great saints. But when it comes to Jews and people of other faiths, we often tend to take the high road instead of the low road.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Walking_Home]

Truth doesn’t change but we don’t have the fullness of it. Jesus is the Truth, until everything is reconciled to Him we don’t have Truth or Him in fullness.

From Lumen Gentium: For the Lord Jesus was with His apostles as He had promised (see Matt. 28:20) and sent them the advocate Spirit who would lead them into the fullness of truth (see John 16:13).

1. Sacred theology rests on the written word of God, together with sacred tradition, as its primary and perpetual foundation. By scrutinizing in the light of faith all truth stored up in the mystery of Christ, theology is most powerfully strengthened and constantly rejuvenated by that word.

boston-catholic-journal.com/the_fullness_of_truth_and_the_magisterium_of_the_Holy_Catholic_Church.htm
Quote:
Question 15 of the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
To whom is the Deposit of Faith entrusted?

The Apostles entrusted the Deposit of Faith to the whole of the Church. Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith the people of God as a whole, assisted by the Holy Spirit and guided by the Magisterium of the Church, never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of Divine Revelation.

It is pride that makes us believe we have all the truth and cannot learn more. We must be open to the ever increasing fullness of Christ and this is the ever increasing fullness of the Truth, as Jesus is the Truth. This leads to holiness by the continuing rejection of sin in our lives by truth and grace.

---

God did not leave us up in the air, wondering if there is Truth. If Truth was Truth 500 years ago or 70, or now. What ever “penetrating” of Truth —it can never change the Truth, never change the meaning of the Truth and/or how the Church has always understood the Truth.

 

[Walking_Home]

The excuse that these words were written in Latin does not hold water. At the time that they were used Latin was not a dead language. It was very much the language of Southern Europe. And as these words were translated into the modern languages they took on different meaning and even multiple meanings. We have to go back and understand them in the context that they were used so as not to commit a gross act of injustice toward an entire people. This is what Nostra Aetate warns us about, commiting an injustice among an entire group of people, in this case the Jews.

The Church has never denied that the covenants with Abraham, Noah and Moses lead to the covenant in and through Jesus Christ. Therefore, those who follow the Old Testament covenants faithfully will eventually find their way to Christ through the grace of God. Were we not to believe this then we would have to deny that the entire Old Testament is really about Jesus Christ. But if we believe that the OT is about Jesus Christ, then we must believe that those who followed the old covenant back then and those who continue to follow it faithfully will find Jesus Christ, since the covenant is about him.

The issue is not whether the Jews are a faithless people or not, but rather about the Jews finding Jesus in the covenants of Abraham, Noah and Moses just as the early Jewish Christians did. We must remember that God calls all men to himself through Jesus Christ, but this does not mean that all men arrive at the same time or that those who are at an earlier stage in the journey will not arrive at all. To believe that would be spiritual arrogance on our part. In that case we would not be preaching truth in charity.

That being said, I do not believe that the popes are being politically correct because they are afraid of the Jews. They are being theologically and pastorally correct, which is a big difference. This does not mean that their predecessors were not correct. What it means is that the words that their predecessors used do not have the same meaning today. To preserve the meaning and the message, the wording has to change. Observe, it is language that changes, not truth. In this case we’re not even speaking about doctrine or dogma. It is not a doctrine or a dogma that the Jews are faithless. This term is a descriptive term used to describe a group of people who have yet to receive the gift of faith in Christ. Let us not forget that great doctrine. Faith is a gift, not something that man can turn on and off at will. The gift is given in the measure that the person can handle it and in a manner that the person can understand it and live up to it. The great saints recognized this. This is what made them great saints. They understood that not everyone is given the same degree of faith and not at the same time either or the same intensity. Look at the writings of Teresa of Avila for a deeper understanding of how the gift of faith is given in degrees and in stages and how it varies from person to person, not only from nation to nation.

Following the theology of someone like Teresa of Avila, we can then understand that the Jewish people have been given faith in God, his commandments, his word, and that part of revelation that they understand. We can also understand that they still have not received the gift of a fuller and deeper faith in Christ, but that God in his mercy will grant that grace on his time table, not our own. Thus when we pray for the Jewish people, we pray that God will remember his promise to them and will grant them the grace of faith to see the the meaning of Christ.

Our attitude toward the Jews must be the same as it is toward anyone who does not have our level of understanding and our level of faith, one of solicitude and patience, not condescension by using language that is offensive and does ot inspire them to seek to understand our faith. Our holy father Francis always taught his brothers and sisters that change in others is brought about by change in ourselves. The more humble we are, the more others will want to know about the source of our detachment from our own ideas and our own desires and our own self-importance. That source is always Jesus Christ. So to bring Jews or others to our faith, we must take to heart the lessons of saints like Francis of Assisi and detach from our self-importance. Being a Christian makes us less important, not more. It makes us less significant compared to others not more. It makes us servants and slaves to all, not masters of any. This great truth is what made Francis and other men and women in the history of the Church great saints. But when it comes to Jews and people of other faiths, we often tend to take the high road instead of the low road.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

---

God’s call is to conversion in Jesus Christ. This call was true when Christ walked the earth, it has been true through the ages, as it its true now. To impede humanity in any way or form—from listening to this call----is working against God.

Please stop using St. Francis the way your are—you do him an injustice. St. Francis went out into the world-- to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[una_fides]

The excuse that these words were written in Latin does not hold water. At the time that they were used Latin was not a dead language. It was very much the language of Southern Europe. And as these words were translated into the modern languages they took on different meaning and even multiple meanings. We have to go back and understand them in the context that they were used so as not to commit a gross act of injustice toward an entire people. This is what Nostra Aetate warns us about, commiting an injustice among an entire group of people, in this case the Jews.

You keep saying that the words “faithless” and “perfidious” have changed meanings, yet you have not given any linguistic proof. I asked for an etymology of the word, but you haven’t provided one. Are you just making an argument, or do you actually have any solid evidence that the word “faithless” in Latin meant something different back then, than it does today? If that were the case, then we would have different words in our definition explaining its correct meaning in light of current English words today that would explain what the word actually meant or means. Can you find me any Latin work where it is used differently? If not, you should refrain from making this argument until you can substantiate its claims, and we will continue understanding the word “faithless” to mean what it says.

The problem is not with the word itself, but is with the incorrect interpretation of the past prayer. Are the Jews faithless concerning the truth of the New Covenant? Absolutely. They teach that Jesus was just a false prophet or that he possibly never even existed at all. Is that being faithful to God’s covenant? The Jews have been faithless throughout their history but some before Christ were faithful such as the patriarchs and the prophets of God and some have been faithful after Christ, which are the ones who have embraced Jesus as Messiah and have entered into his Church.

 

[una_fides]

Any Jew who practices his faith is on the right tract. Eventually, his faith will lead him into the covenant with Jesus Christ. This is the belief of Vatican II and the popes thereafter. That’s why the term faithless has a different meaning today from what it had in the past. In the past, it was referring ot those who did not have faith in Jesus Christ. Today it has a tendency to mean that the person has no faith at all. A practicing Jew is a person of faith and eventually either he or his posterity will discover the truth about Jesus Christ, because the covenant with Israel points the way to Christ. Thus, that person is on the right track, even if they are ot on the same schedule as the rest of us. The conversion of a faithful Israel is a matter of time, not a matter of “if”.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

The current Jewish teaching concerning Jesus is that he was likely a false prophet that lead people astray. They teach that his disciples also perverted his teachings and that we follow a lie. They deny him as Messiah and Lord, and some even question whether he existed. For these reasons, St. Paul inerrantly tells us that they are our enemies for the sake of the gospel. If they hold to those teachings, they will never end up in the New Covenant in Christ. So no, you cannot say they are “on the right track” or that if they follow this false faith–which is faithless concerning Christ–they will somehow end up believing in him. There are truths hidden in their Torah that St. Paul tells us they are blinded with a veil over their eyes so that they cannot see. For those whom the veil does get lifted they will embrace Jesus as Messiah, denounce the false teachings in Judaism which deny Jesus is the Christ, and will enter into his Church. In the mean time, the Jews who continue to follow the Old Covenant alone are on a road to perdition, as Scripture clearly teaches that the law (Old Covenant) is powerless to save anyone, and that they can only be saved through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[una_fides]

---

God did not leave us up in the air, wondering if there is Truth. If Truth was Truth 500 years ago or 70, or now. What ever “penetrating” of Truth —it can never change the Truth, never change the meaning of the Truth and/or how the Church has always understood the Truth.

You are exactly right. In fact, the Church has infallibly declared in Vatican I that her teachings not only do not change but that they must continue to be understood in eodem sensu (in the same sense) as they have always been understood and that this same sense can never be abandoned in hopes of some “deeper understanding.” To hold that the Church’s teachings actually change in meaning is heresy.

               Vatican I – Infallible

Hence, too, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding.
May understanding, knowledge and wisdom increase as ages and centuries roll along, and greatly and vigorously flourish, in each and all, in the individual and the whole church: but this only in its own proper kind, that is to say, in the same doctrine, the same sense, and the same understanding.
3. If anyone says that
• it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the church which is different from that which the church has understood and understands:
let him be anathema.
piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm#4.%20On%20faith%20and%20reason

 

[una_fides]

The Church has never denied that the covenants with Abraham, Noah and Moses lead to the covenant in and through Jesus Christ. Therefore, those who follow the Old Testament covenants faithfully will eventually find their way to Christ through the grace of God. Were we not to believe this then we would have to deny that the entire Old Testament is really about Jesus Christ. But if we believe that the OT is about Jesus Christ, then we must believe that those who followed the old covenant back then and those who continue to follow it faithfully will find Jesus Christ, since the covenant is about him.

They will only find Christ if the veil is removed from their hearts, upon which they must then denounce the falsities of the Talmudic Jewish faith in its denial of Christ as the Messiah and must no longer trust in the old law and realize its complete inability to save.

The issue is not whether the Jews are a faithless people or not, but rather about the Jews finding Jesus in the covenants of Abraham, Noah and Moses just as the early Jewish Christians did. We must remember that God calls all men to himself through Jesus Christ, but this does not mean that all men arrive at the same time or that those who are at an earlier stage in the journey will not arrive at all. To believe that would be spiritual arrogance on our part. In that case we would not be preaching truth in charity.

Realistically, how many Jews actually arrive at this conclusion? It is very safe to assume that the vast majority of them will die as Jews and outside the Church. Why did Paul go into their synagogues and preach Jesus Christ to them? Why if their law was already adequate? Because without embracing and believing in Jesus Christ, as Christ himself taught, they will die in their sins.

In John 8:24, Jesus said, “For if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin.”

That being said, I do not believe that the popes are being politically correct because they are afraid of the Jews. They are being theologically and pastorally correct, which is a big difference.

So to get back on topic, was Paul VI correct by using such ambiguous language in his 1970 change to the Good Friday prayer? It most certainly and easily can and has resulted in many thinking that the Jews can continue to follow the Old Covenant alone and be saved, and even modern bishops are teaching this nonsense.

Following the theology of someone like Teresa of Avila, we can then understand that the Jewish people have been given faith in God, his commandments, his word, and that part of revelation that they understand. We can also understand that they still have not received the gift of a fuller and deeper faith in Christ, but that God in his mercy will grant that grace on his time table, not our own. Thus when we pray for the Jewish people, we pray that God will remember his promise to them and will grant them the grace of faith to see the the meaning of Christ.

Even your version of this prayer is much more clear than the Paul VI version. No ambiguities that you are praying for their conversion to Christ and not to continue to follow their Christ-less faith.

Our holy father Francis always taught his brothers and sisters that change in others is brought about by change in ourselves. The more humble we are, the more others will want to know about the source of our detachment from our own ideas and our own desires and our own self-importance. That source is always Jesus Christ. So to bring Jews or others to our faith, we must take to heart the lessons of saints like Francis of Assisi and detach from our self-importance. Being a Christian makes us less important, not more. It makes us less significant compared to others not more. It makes us servants and slaves to all, not masters of any. This great truth is what made Francis and other men and women in the history of the Church great saints. But when it comes to Jews and people of other faiths, we often tend to take the high road instead of the low road.

Or we could take the approach of the saints who were instrumental in spreading the Christian faith, such as St. Paul who in every place he went would first go into the synagogues and preach to them Christ and him crucified. Why not use the language of St. Stephen? (See my earlier post.) Bringing the prophetic message to people will offend them, but it will save those who listen to the Word and warnings of almighty God.

Ezekiel 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel: and thou shalt hear the word out of my mouth, and shalt tell it them from me. 18 If, when I say to the wicked, Thou shalt surely die: thou declare it not to him, nor speak to him, that he may be converted from his wicked way, and live: the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand. 19 But if thou give warning to the wicked, and he be not converted from his wickedness, and from his evil way: he indeed shall die in his iniquity, but thou hast delivered thy soul.

 

[EasterJoy]

The current Jewish teaching concerning Jesus is that he was likely a false prophet that lead people astray. They teach that his disciples also perverted his teachings and that we follow a lie. They deny him as Messiah and Lord, and some even question whether he existed. For these reasons, St. Paul inerrantly tells us that they are our enemies for the sake of the gospel. If they hold to those teachings, they will never end up in the New Covenant in Christ. So no, you cannot say they are “on the right track” or that if they follow this false faith–which is faithless concerning Christ–they will somehow end up believing in him. There are truths hidden in their Torah that St. Paul tells us they are blinded with a veil over their eyes so that they cannot see. For those whom the veil does get lifted they will embrace Jesus as Messiah, denounce the false teachings in Judaism which deny Jesus is the Christ, and will enter into his Church. In the mean time, the Jews who continue to follow the Old Covenant alone are on a road to perdition, as Scripture clearly teaches that the law (Old Covenant) is powerless to save anyone, and that they can only be saved through faith in Jesus Christ.

That the current Good Friday prayer does not single out the Jews from among all those who do not believe in Christ does not mean that we don’t pray that they will come to believe when we pray for everyone else who doesn’t believe in Christ.

We have prayed for the conversion of the Jews for 2000 years, but one has to ask whether anti-semitism has the effect of converting Jews to Christ. Simple history says that it does not. Rather, it intensifies their impression that any Jewish Messiah whose followers persecute the Jews must have been a false Messiah. And we cannot forget that history has not been at a standstill. The last century was a horrific one of unthinkable persecutions against the Jews, persecutions rooted in false prejudices against the Jews as being a particularly perfidious–literally: treacherous, deceitful, untrustworthy–people. Do not think they are too stupid to see the connection between that and what the world allowed to be done to them, both before and after World War II commenced.

It is extremely important that every future attempt to convert the Jews be clear that Christianity’s goal is not the extermination of the Jewish nation, but rather to bring her to her promised vindication. Today’s Jews were formed in mind by the Holocaust. Half of their number were wiped out, and in a region of the world in which Christianity and a vicious brand of anti-semitism had a long shared history. Of those who survived, many lost faith in God altogether. We cannot just continue on as if that never happened, as if that will have had no effect on how they receive our efforts at evangelization or how they view the idea of whether or not God even exists, let alone whether or not they have a special relationship with Him.

That is why I think that your view that the Good Friday prayer needed no change is simple-minded and ignores the reality of the history of Jewish-Christian relations, and particularly the experience of Jews in the last century. If the Church had been as strong at condemning acts of hatred towards Jews as it should have been in the past, you might have had a case. As it is, though, that well is thoroughly poisoned, and in a more horrible manner than any previous Pope could have possibly imagined.

Accusing the Pope of heresy is a tall accusation, and I’m sorry, but you haven’t made your case. The burden of proof is obviously on you, as you are the one opposing the leadership of those who have been given the power to bind and loose on this earth, including the authority to write our liturgies. The liturgy they have written may not have included what you want to say, but it includes no heresy.

If your mind is still made up, though, I don’t think there is much more to be done about it.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

God did not leave us up in the air, wondering if there is Truth.

This is true, but has nothing to do with being led to the “fullness of truth” You seem to have no idea what the elucidation of truth in the philosophical sense means. It is no changing but a fuller realization of it as regards individual awareness. We have Jesus, Jesus is the fullness of Truth, we don’t have the fullness of Jesus, we don’t have the fullness of Truth, yet. This happens when we A. Get to heaven, and/or B. Jesus reconciles everything to Himself (the new heavens and earth) at the end of time.

To make it perfectly clear, saying we don’t yet have the fullness of truth is not a denial that there is a fullness of truth.

 

[EasterJoy]

So to get back on topic, was Paul VI correct by using such ambiguous language in his 1970 change to the Good Friday prayer? It most certainly and easily can and has resulted in many thinking that the Jews can continue to follow the Old Covenant alone and be saved, and even modern bishops are teaching this nonsense.

According to the thread title, the topic is whether or not the Pope’s wording is tantamount to heresy. That is a steeper charge than wondering whether the old wording was better in some way.

The question of whether the Pope and the bishops have chosen the best way to evangelize is quite different than the question of whether or not they’ve committed heresy in promulgating the prayers in question. I do not mean to say that there can’t be legitimate differences of opinion on whether their leadership is effective, whether the liturgies they promulgate are effective, whether they’ve effectively communicated why they’ve chosen the wording they have, or any of that. I don’t think the prayers ineffective, but I do not mean to say that you’re automatically in some degree of schism if you dare to say out loud that you think they are. I think you’re wrong, I think the old prayer undoubtedly drove Jews away from the Church, if anything, but you’re allowed your opinion.

On the question about whether or not prayers for the Jews’ fidelity to their covenant with God and prayers for their conversion to Christ are antithetical: Since the latter is non-negotiable, inherent incompatibility would preclude the use of the former, yes. But they aren’t inherently incompatible. The Pope has also been clear about why they are not incompatible. Therefore, the prayers are not heretical, and neither is the Pope.

 

[Walking_Home]

This is true, but has nothing to do with being led to the “fullness of truth” You seem to have no idea what the elucidation of truth in the philosophical sense means. It is no changing but a fuller realization of it as regards individual awareness. We have Jesus, Jesus is the fullness of Truth, we don’t have the fullness of Jesus, we don’t have the fullness of Truth, yet. This happens when we A. Get to heaven, and/or B. Jesus reconciles everything to Himself (the new heavens and earth) at the end of time.

To make it perfectly clear, saying we don’t yet have the fullness of truth is not a denial that there is a fullness of truth.

---

This “elucidation” in the “philosophical sense”—cannot give truth a “different meaning”, a “different understanding”. Disguising it under a label of “fuller realization” does not change that Truth cannot attain a different meaning/understanding.