Is it heretical to pray that Jews continue to follow the Old Covenant?

[Ultima_Ratio]

Praying for the unbelieving Jews to follow the old Covenant** is worse ** than prayer for more women to have abortions.

Why? Because following the old Covenant is an implicit denial of Christ, and therefore a mortal sin against the first commandment. A sin against the first commandment, which has God for its object, is far worse than a sin against the 5th commandment (such as abortion) which has a human as its object. The following is froma book reviewed and endorsed by the Holy Office:

**Liberalism is a Sin: **“With the exception of formal hatred against God, which constitutes the deadliest of all sins and of which the creature is rarely culpable – unless he be in Hell – the gravest of all sins are those against faith. The reason is evident. Faith is the foundation of the supernatural order, and sin is sin insofar as it attacks this supernatural order at one or another point; hence that is the greatest sin which attacks this order at its very foundations… Hence, heretical doctrines – and works inspired by them – constitute the greatest of all sins, with the exception of formal hatred of God, of which only the demons in Hell and the damned are capable. Liberalism, then, which is heresy, and all the works of Liberalisn, which are heretical works, are the gravest sins known in the code of the Christian law.”

With the coming of Christ, the old Covenant, the purpose of which was to point to Christ, is now abolished. Anyone who practices the old Covenant today, with the intention of being justified by it, implicitly denies Christ and is therefore guilty of a mortal sin, as the Council of Florence teaches infallibly:

Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic Law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation.”

The Jews were the original chosen people. However, those who rejected Christ we cut off from the house of Israel and are not longer the true seed.

Pope St. Gregory the Great: "“… If you be Christ’s then you are the seed of Abraham” (Gal 3:29). If we because of our faith in Christ are deemed children of Abraham, the Jews therefore because of their perfidy have ceased to be His seed.”

Only the faithful Jews - meaning those who accepted and follow Christ - remain the chosen people, along with the faithful Gentiles who have been grafted on to the house of Israel.

Anyone who prays for the Jews to follow the Old Covenant is praying for their eternal damnation, which is true anti-Semetism. If anyone really cares for the unfaithful Jews, they should pray for their conversion. This life will end for all of us soon enough. The Jews who do not accept Christ will be lost with the other unbelievers, and the Catholics who die in mortal sin. Let us do unto others as we would have them do for us and pray for the conversion of the perfidious Jews.

And let us do unto ourselves what we ought to do, and not lose our own soul by praying for the unbelieving Jews to follow the old Covenant. If it is a mortal sin to practice the old Covenent with the intent of being justified by it (as the Council of Florence teaches), how would a person not be guilty of a mortal sin by praying for them to follow the old Covenenant? Just as it would be a mortal sin to pray for a women to have an abortion (which is a mortal sin against the 5th Commandment) so too will it be a mortal sin to pray for the Jews to follow the Old Covenant, which is a mortal sin against the first Commandment.

 

[Sirach2]

And let us do unto ourselves what we ought to do, and not lose our own soul by praying for the unbelieving Jews to follow the old Covenant. If it is a mortal sin to practice the old Covenent with the intent of being justified by it (as the Council of Florence teaches), how would a person not be guilty of a mortal sin by praying for them to follow the old Covenenant?

Folks, this type of comment is so utterly bizarre that I think it’s best for me to cease commenting in this thread before any further breaches in the reader’s understanding get twisted beyond all recognition of what the Church actually teaches.

 

[Sirach2]

FYI

I just checked the line-up for EWTN tonight. Scott Hahn’s “First Comes Love” will replay the Monday night teaching on the Covenant at 2:00 A.M., EST. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find anything on You-tube. The Religious Catalogue does have a DVD on this series, but I’m not sure whether it also contains this particular episode.

If any are interested, perhaps you can program your DVD to record it while you sleep.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Folks, this type of comment is so utterly bizarre that I think it’s best for me to cease commenting in this thread before any further breaches in the reader’s understanding get twisted beyond all recognition of what the Church actually teaches.

The Old Covenant has always been understood to mean the Mosaic Covenant practiced by the Jews at the time of Christ. It has never been understood, since the time of Christ, to refer to the promise God made to Abraham. The old Covenant, or “old law” - that which was practiced by the Jews at the time of Christ - is now null and void, and according to the Council of Florence (quoted above) it is a mortal sin for anyone to practice the precents of this law with the intent of being justified by it. The following quote by Pope Pius XII expounds the constant teaching of the Church, that the old Covenant, or old law, is null and void.

Mystici Corporis Christi, Pope Pius XII, 1943: "29. And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ. For, while our Divine Savior was preaching in a restricted area - He was not sent but to the sheep that were lost of the House of Israel [30] - the Law and the Gospel were together in force; [31] but on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees [32] fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, [33] establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race.[34] “To such an extent, then,” says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, “was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from the many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as Our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.” [35]

1. **On the Cross then the Old Law died, soon to be buried and to be a bearer of death, [36] in order to give way to the New Testament **of which Christ had chosen the Apostles as qualified ministers; [37]

Regarding the quote from Cardinal Kasper, in which he said *“salvation of the greater part of the Jews will indeed be mediated by Jesus Christ, but not by entry into the Church”: *This is pure heresy, and an explicit denial of the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation. The following is an infallible dogma that all Catholics - including Cardinal Kasper - are bound to accept.

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

Do you believe that *“none of those existing outside the Catholic Church”, *including “Jews” will be saved, but instead *“will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels?” *Or do you believe the contrary teaching of Cardinal Kasper - namely, that the Jews will be saved *“not by entry into the Church”? *I hope you believe the infallible teachings of the Council of Florence, which is in perfect accord with what the Church has always taught, rather than the contrary teaching of Kasper.

 

[Ockham]

Folks, this type of comment is so utterly bizarre that I think it’s best for me to cease commenting in this thread .

That would be a good idea as this is the Traditional Catholic forum intended for discussion of Traditional Catholicism. If you are not a Traditional Catholic then coming in here to debate and argue can lead to division and hostility. Certainly this isn’t the charitable course to take.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

FYI

I just checked the line-up for EWTN tonight. Scott Hahn’s “First Comes Love” will replay the Monday night teaching on the Covenant at 2:00 A.M., EST. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find anything on You-tube. The Religious Catalogue does have a DVD on this series, but I’m not sure whether it also contains this particular episode.

If any are interested, perhaps you can program your DVD to record it while you sleep.

I would recommend spending a little less time listening to Scott Hahn, and a little more time reading the Councils. It is the teaching of the Councils, not the latest EWTN series by Scott Hahn, that the Catholics are bound to accept. Have you ever heard Scott Hahn teach that all Jews who die outside of the Catholic Church will suffer the eternal fires of hell, or that it is a mortal sin for a Jew to practice to precepts of the Mosiac law? That is a politically incorrect teaching of the Catholic Church that all Catholics are bound to accept, but that few have the courage to profess in our politically correct age. Stick with the dogmatic teachings of the Councils and you will be on safe ground.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

I would recommend spending a little less time listening to Scott Hahn, and a little more time reading the Councils. It is the teaching of the Councils, not the latest EWTN series by Scott Hahn, that the Catholics are bound to accept. Have you ever heard Scott Hahn teach that all Jews who die outside of the Catholic Church will suffer the eternal fires of hell, or that it is a mortal sin for a Jew to practice to precepts of the Mosiac law? That is a politically incorrect teaching of the Catholic Church that all Catholics are bound to accept, but that few have the courage to profess in our politically correct age. Stick with the dogmatic teachings of the Councils and you will be on safe ground.

I would be very happy to yell fire and brimstone to anyone if I thought it would do some good, but I don’t. Which perhaps is why, in the wisdom of the Church, the wording of the prayer being discussed was changed, to affirm a more positive nature of the prayer instead of the negative. Jesus states to St. Faustina the reason for His Divine Mercy being salvation from eternal punishment, but it is the positive, His Infinite Mercy, that is paramount. It would be easier just to say “convert or die” but it takes a more profound understanding, and perhaps a deeper union with God, to offer a more reasoned, more charitable presentation.

 

[una_fides]

I would be very happy to yell fire and brimstone to anyone if I thought it would do some good, but I don’t. Which perhaps is why, in the wisdom of the Church, the wording of the prayer being discussed was changed, to affirm a more positive nature of the prayer instead of the negative. Jesus states to St. Faustina the reason for His Divine Mercy being salvation from eternal punishment, but it is the positive, His Infinite Mercy, that is paramount. It would be easier just to say “convert or die” but it takes a more profound understanding, and perhaps a deeper union with God, to offer a more reasoned, more charitable presentation.

There is a difference between using charitable language vs vague and misleading language. I find that many people begin to seek the truth of the Christian faith because they fear hell. The more they study the more they fall in love with the God who became man to save them from the fires of hell, which we all deserve for our sins. True charity is not covering up the truth. It is doing what is in one’s best interest. Just because most reject the truth doesn’t mean we water it down and cover it up with vague language. Look at how Jesus and his apostles preached the truth boldly and without remorse. Why push for inoffensive language when the gospel itself is offensive to those who are perishing as the Scruptures say but to then who accept it is the power of God unto salvation.

 

[Shin]

I would recommend spending a little less time listening to Scott Hahn, and a little more time reading the Councils. It is the teaching of the Councils, not the latest EWTN series by Scott Hahn, that the Catholics are bound to accept. Have you ever heard Scott Hahn teach that all Jews who die outside of the Catholic Church will suffer the eternal fires of hell, or that it is a mortal sin for a Jew to practice to precepts of the Mosiac law? That is a politically incorrect teaching of the Catholic Church that all Catholics are bound to accept, but that few have the courage to profess in our politically correct age. Stick with the dogmatic teachings of the Councils and you will be on safe ground.

Good to see you around Ultima Ratio!

 

[WFS5801]

If you have no faith in the teaching of the Church, then I cannot help you.

Which teaching of the Church? That which was taught for 2,000 years, is rooted in the Bible, is found in dogmatic councils and in infallible Papal pronouncements, or the current opinions of a few bishops and cardinals?

If you go to a doctor, do you want him to tell you everything is fine, that you’re although you’re not completely healthy but we can all hope you’ll get healthier with time – even though you’ll really die without an operation? Or do you want the doctor to tell you the jarring truth, that are going to die unless you make the decision today to get an operation?

That’s how I see these two prayers. The first prayer states the case clearly. The Jews rejected Christ, their Messiah. If they want to save their souls, they must, as St. Peter said to the Jews on the Pentecost, “repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins.” The second prayer is like the doctor who mumbles nice little, politically correct platitudes, while his patient is dying in front of him. It’s so much easier and less “jangling,” but it’s not much help in making the object clear, that it is necessary that he repent and be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

But in the Modernists’ view, all religions “have truth,” it’s just that the Catholic Church has “more of the truth.” Well, of course there is some truth in all religions, just as a good lie contains some truth, but that’s not the point. The point is there is only one way to God, through Christ and his Church. And, if Jews or Hindus or Muslims are saved, they are saved despite their religion, not because of it – they have somehow become a part of the Church. But I wouldn’t bet on “invincible ignorance” saving most non-Catholics, because they also have to have the ability to make perfect acts of contrition.

So what do we do? Let non-Catholics go to hell because it’s more “loving” and “feel-goody” not to tell them the truth? This is basically what ecumenism has turned into – a happy “feel-good” mumbling session about how wonderful humanity is – instead of a clear distinction between the Church and absolute truth and the world, the domain of the father of lies.

 

[diggerdomer]

I thought you said you were unsubscribing to this thread… Please show me where I said the Church’s liturgy should be rejected. I said that this one prayer needs to be on account of its vague and misleading content. There are people on this thread who think that it’s saying that the Jews should continue to follow Judiasm and not convert. And on the same account do you firmly believe in the content from the Church’s 1962 liturgy and for over 1500 years before? I ask you and any other Catholic reading this, Can you faithfully pray the previous version of this prayer? If not, then what changed, and why not? Can you pray one and then follow it by the other without any disconnect in your thinking?

Sorry if I misunderstood.

I faithfully pray the liturgy that the Church provides.

 

[laszlo]

But in the Modernists’ view, all religions “have truth,”

Everything what exists exist because God keeps it in existence, and God keeps only truth, good, beauty in existence. The error, the evil, and ugly are deficiencies. So everything what exists ‘has truth’ in itself, and our obligation is to search fro this ‘truth’ in everything.

As for the Jews:

1./ God chose the Jews as the instrument of His presence in the world, and as the steward of the Messiah.

2./ The Jews did not recognized their time, and instead of serving God among us (Emmanuel) sentenced him to death, and thus lost their role in the history of salvation. Jesus established His Church w/o the Jews.

3./ God still loves the Jews (they did not knew what they are doing; Jesus is God, his prayer has creative power) , and before the end of world they will be converted and and confess Jesus Christ as the Messiah who came to the world. This means, that according to God’s will the Jews are the only nation to survive to the end of the word. For this reason the Church forbade the forced Christianization of the Jews throughout the history

4./ As a matter of fact in our present world (21st century) the Jews have significant power in and over the world. and it is better for us, if they exercise this power under God’s rules (especially the golder rule) than the opposite, so it is useful to pray for them, to keep themselves to their religion.

 

[Timothy17]

Well hopefully neither I nor the prophet Jeremiah (see Jeremiah 16:19) are “racist”

I believe a real example of racism in the context of this thread, are the racial purity rules of the Jesuit order which were in effect until 1946, the year following the end of the Shoah. According to these rules, Jewish blood was so tainted that if a Jew converted to Catholicism, only after five full generations free of Jewish blood, could a descendant of the converted Jew join the Jesuit order. As for the evil racial characteristics of the Jews which made such rules necessary, these were fully and repeatedly detailed in the Civilta Cattolica.

Throw out whatever feeble excuse or distraction you please, the fact remains : you placed yourself in the position of Almighty God, and declared yourself to be the God who saves ; furthermore, you sullied an entire race by including them in your monstrous error. The former demands the charge of egomania ; the latter, racist. Now, I imagine it must be difficult to accept correction at the hands of a man you imagine to be a silly pagan who worships statues, so I will let the God of the Universe correct you,

“***I ***Am the Lord your God, *who brought you *out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage,”

And,

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

Seeing as you persist in believing your ancestors miraculously liberated themselves from the general and common error of all mankind, then it is they, and (by your own testimony) you and yours who must be gods, and that God whom I cited above must, therefore, be of no avail, seeing as He need not even be mentioned for one’s salvation, according, at least, to you. For He says He brought the Israelites out of bondage, and you say it was you and yours who performed this act. Both cannot at once be true, and one must, therefore, be in error, and so I must be a silly pagan who worships statues and conceptualizes God with the help of pictures to imagine that it was the God whom I quoted above who liberated the Israelites, and not you or yours who performed the miraculous deed.

Pax,
Tim

 

[Hunter53]

4./ As a matter of fact in our present world (21st century) the Jews have significant power in and over the world. and it is better for us, if they exercise this power under God’s rules (especially the golder rule) than the opposite, so it is useful to pray for them, to keep themselves to their religion.

This part makes no sense to me. How or why is it better that they have control? They certainly don’t follow the golden rule or Gods rule, they make their own rules. Just ask Palestine or the people from Gaza.

 

[WFS5801]

As for the Jews:

1./ God chose the Jews as the instrument of His presence in the world, and as the steward of the Messiah.

Okay, no issues there.

2./ The Jews did not recognized their time, and instead of serving God among us (Emmanuel) sentenced him to death, and thus lost their role in the history of salvation. Jesus established His Church w/o the Jews.

Basically agree, except that most of the early Christians were Jews by birth. So I think it’s wrong to say “Jesus established his Church w/o the Jews.”

3./ God still loves the Jews (they did not knew what they are doing; Jesus is God, his prayer has creative power) , and before the end of world they will be converted and and confess Jesus Christ as the Messiah who came to the world. This means, that according to God’s will the Jews are the only nation to survive to the end of the word. For this reason the Church forbade the forced Christianization of the Jews throughout the history

Sorry, but you’ll have to show proof of this to me in the Bible. This sounds more like the Scofield “dual-Covenant” doctrine, then Christianity. As for loving the Jews, God loves all mankind and wishes they would convert and become Christians – just as the first Christians were all Jews and converted. You’ll also have to show some support for your statement that the Church “forbade the forced Christianization of the Jews throughout the history.” What I’ve seen is that the Church, since Jews often lived as a nation among other nations, were forbidden to work within the Christian government. But the object was to protect the Church, not preserve Judaism. I’m also trying to figure out when the Church used “forced Christianization” on any people.

4./ As a matter of fact in our present world (21st century) the Jews have significant power in and over the world. and it is better for us, if they exercise this power under God’s rules (especially the golder rule) than the opposite, so it is useful to pray for them, to keep themselves to their religion.

And what makes you think that they, who have rejected God Incarnate, are using God’s rules? I see no evidence that powerful Jews (who are almost all secular and non-religious) are in any way “Godly.” But, perhaps you can provide some examples.

Here’s the problem with the thinking of those who teach that all Jews will eventually come into the Church – and there is that passage in Romans that many use to teach this (which I personally think is mis-taught, but St. Paul called it a “mystery” – and to assume we fully understand that mystery is presumptuous). What do we do about the Jews who live and die before this supposed “mass conversion” into the Church? What good is their Judaism going to do them if they’ve rejected God and the truth during their lives? We know that Jews, as soon as they understood that Jesus was the Messiah in the New Testament, immediately converted. There was none of this “stay as are” nonsense. What has changed through the centuries?

I would guess that, if St. Peter lived today, he would preach to the Jews, as he did on the day of Pentecost, “Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and you will be saved…” None of this “dual-Covenant” malarkey.

 

[laszlo]

Basically agree, except that most of the early Christians were Jews by birth. So I think it’s wrong to say “Jesus established his Church w/o the Jews.”
[/qiote]

The Jews were called as Nation, and they rejected Jesus as nation by their official court. Also it is solid teaching of the Church that they will be converted before the end of the world as Nation. As individuals they were just simply human beings. The Church is not individualist, she confesses the balance between the individual and the community.

Sorry, but you’ll have to show proof of this to me in the Bible.

De futuribilis (if and when) nec Deus judicat. I clearly stated that Jesus established His Church, which is the chosen group for the salvation of the world. However the Feeneyism is rejected by the Church, and we do not know who is condemned to hell, we can not say that every Jew who is not baptized is going to Hell. It is Jesus who get the salvation for everyone. The way of an orthodox Jew to cooperate with God’s will is according his conscience, which for him dictates to keep the Law. This is not the ideal, this is not perfect, this is not sufficient in itself, but we all are insufficient in our own anyway.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Posting any comment that has racial overtones and name calling is a serious violation of CAF rules. The poster will be suspended.

Thomas Casey
Moderator

 

[WFS5801]

De futuribilis (if and when) nec Deus judicat. I clearly stated that Jesus established His Church, which is the chosen group for the salvation of the world. However the Feeneyism is rejected by the Church, and we do not know who is condemned to hell, we can not say that every Jew who is not baptized is going to Hell. It is Jesus who get the salvation for everyone. The way of an orthodox Jew to cooperate with God’s will is according his conscience, which for him dictates to keep the Law. This is not the ideal, this is not perfect, this is not sufficient in itself, but we all are insufficient in our own anyway.

I don’t know why Feeneyism was introduced into this “thread” but, rest assured, I’m not a Feeneyite. And yes, I realize that Jews can become members of the Church through the Baptism of Desire, but that’s not the normal mode of salvation… for anyone. And I certainly wouldn’t want to trust a whole nation of people’s salvation to the “possibility” that they might be saved through Baptism of Desire and the ability to make a perfect act of contrition before they die. Would you? And, I didn’t say that every Jew will be condemned to Hell for rejecting Jesus – my point is that Jews don’t have a side door that gets them into Heaven sans-Christ. Salvation requires membership in the Church, through Baptism of Water, Desire or Blood. No one comes to the Father but through Jesus.

Again, those who are subject to invincible ignorance and saved by the Baptism of Desire, are saved despite their religion, not because of it.

 

[laszlo]

This part makes no sense to me. How or why is it better that they have control? They certainly don’t follow the golden rule or Gods rule, they make their own rules. Just ask Palestine or the people from Gaza.

You are not in the position to the change the fact that they have significant control over the world. But you can pray for them, to rule it according to the pronciles of the humanity and their own religion.

 

[Hunter53]

You are not in the position to the change the fact that they have significant control over the world. But you can pray for them, to rule it according to the pronciles of the humanity and their own religion.

Even though I have no desire for them to be in control I do pray for them but they have shown an abuse of control from the time of the Russian revolution till now.