Is it OK to be truly happy living in a world where more than 9,500 innocent children starve to death each and every day?

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The inner life of man is greatly hindered in this life by the needs of the body. Thus, the Prophet devoutly prays that he may be set free from them, saying, “Lord, deliver me from my necessities!” Woe to those who refuse to recognize their own wretchedness, and doubly woe to those who love this miserable and corruptible life! For some cling so closely to it, that although by working or begging they can hardly win the bare necessities, they would yet be willing to live here for ever if it were possible, caring nothing for the Kingdom of God.
-The Imitation of Christ, Book 1, Chapter 22
 
Robert_Sock said:
Psalms 136:1
Upon the rivers of Babylon, there we sat and wept: when we remembered Sion:
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Such sadness and weeping is always for specific reasons. It would be abnormal not to be sad when bad things happen to individuals or to people as a whole. That is quite different, however, from indulging in misery about the sorry state of affairs in the world. Judaism has always believed in taking action in the face of adversity rather than bemoaning one’s fate. Even the period of mourning upon the death of a family member consists of a prescribed time frame according to Jewish Law, and then one is supposed to resume one’s normal life. That does not mean one should live in a self-centered way without any regard for the misery of others. Hillel the Elder writes: “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am for myself alone, what am I? And if not now, when?” IOW, one must rejoice in living, aid others to relieve their suffering, and act now, not wait for tomorrow.
 
meltzerboy said:
Such sadness and weeping is always for specific reasons. It would be abnormal not to be sad when bad things happen to individuals or to people as a whole. That is quite different, however, from indulging in misery about the sorry state of affairs in the world. Judaism has always believed in taking action in the face of adversity rather than bemoaning one’s fate. Even the period of mourning upon the death of a family member consists of a prescribed time frame according to Jewish Law, and then one is supposed to resume one’s normal life. That does not mean one should live in a self-centered way without any regard for the misery of others. Hillel the Elder writes: “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am for myself alone, what am I? And if not now, when?” IOW, one must rejoice in living, aid others to relieve their suffering, and act now, not wait for tomorrow.
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Who’s talking “misery?” I’m talking about LOVE and joy! But spiritual LOVE and a profound joy directed towards our salvation and being taken from this miserable and corrupt world. Do you value LOVE above earthly happiness?

It was the many chapters of the Tanya on the importance of charity that I now donate monthly to help the poor! I can’t donate much, but I’m doing my part.

The problem of starvation is preventable, but it persists. Do you morn the 9,500 innocent children that will starve to death today? Where is the help to end these types of tortures deaths?
 
Robert_Sock said:
Who’s talking “misery?” I’m talking about LOVE and joy! But spiritual LOVE and a profound joy directed towards our salvation and being taken from this miserable and corrupt world. Do you value LOVE above earthly happiness?

It was the many chapters of the Tanya on the importance of charity that I now donate monthly to help the poor! I can’t donate much, but I’m doing my part.

The problem of starvation is preventable, but it persists. Do you morn the 9,500 innocent children that will starve to death today? Where is the help to end these types of tortures deaths?
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Robert, you call the world “miserable and corrupt.” I would say the world CONTAINS elements of misery and corruption which we all must fight against in our own way. But not to express any joy and love for the goodness found in earthly life is to deny our birthright which G-d bestowed upon us. IOW, it is to reject G-d’s gift of life itself, life here on earth. We are not meant to suffer and we are put here for a dual purpose: to cultivate and rejoice in our G-d-given talents and to help others who are not given the opportunity to cultivate and rejoice in theirs because of their suffering. By doing this, we show our love and reverence for both G-d and His creation.
 
meltzerboy said:
Robert, you call the world “miserable and corrupt.” I would say the world CONTAINS elements of misery and corruption which we all must fight against in our own way. But not to express any joy and love for the goodness found in earthly life is to deny our birthright which G-d bestowed upon us. IOW, it is to reject G-d’s gift of life itself, life here on earth. We are not meant to suffer and we are put here for a dual purpose: to cultivate and rejoice in our G-d-given talents and to help others who are not given the opportunity to cultivate and rejoice in theirs because of their suffering. By doing this, we show our love and reverence for both G-d and His creation.
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Do you value spiritual LOVE above earthly happiness?
 
Robert_Sock said:
Do you value spiritual LOVE above earthly happiness?
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Yes, I do; however, that does not mean I reject earthly happiness. One can experience both and I do not see the point in denying our human need for self-fulfillment. Judaism is not a religion based on self-denial, while it is a religion that demands we do not think only of ourselves and our own needs.
 
Robert_Sock said:
Who’s talking “misery?” I’m talking about LOVE and joy! But spiritual LOVE and a profound joy directed towards our salvation and being taken from this miserable and corrupt world. Do you value LOVE above earthly happiness?

It was the many chapters of the Tanya on the importance of charity that I now donate monthly to help the poor! I can’t donate much, but I’m doing my part.

The problem of starvation is preventable, but it persists. Do you morn the 9,500 innocent children that will starve to death today? Where is the help to end these types of tortures deaths?
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You said earthly happiness is the curse of Satan. That is just rubbish.
Robert. You have told us in the past you have had some mental issues that required medication. Is this an occasion when you have stopped taking your medication.
 
dshix said:
Oh, my. This might just explain quite a lot.

I was unaware.
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Oh, do you think it ‘explains a lot’ that a person may require medication? If so, what does it explain?

Are people who ‘require medication’ not permitted to have or to express opinions?

Are you expressing your opinion in a professional capacity (in which case, perhaps you choice of forum might be questioned)? However, if you are not expressing an opinion in a professional capacity, in what capacity then, are you expressing it?

I don’t agree entirely with Robert’s opinion- but I feel that these ad hominem attacks are contrary to charity.

I note that others who also disagree with Robert (such as Tonrey) manage to remain polite and civil. Perhaps you might like to consider his excellent example.
 
thistle said:
You said earthly happiness is the curse of Satan. That is just rubbish.
Robert. You have told us in the past you have had some mental issues that required medication. Is this an occasion when you have stopped taking your medication.
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It seems as if you are inquiring as to the medication which a poster may or may not be taking, or may or may not require. I fail to see how the medical condition of the poster is relevant to the philosophical position he has expressed. Perhaps you could explain in what capacity you make this enquiry? Are you Robert Sock’s professional medical consultant? If so, perhaps you should confine you conversations to private consultations. If not, perhaps you should re-consider the appropriateness of such a comment at all.
 
Qoeleth said:
Oh, do you think it ‘explains a lot’ that a person may require medication? If so, what does it explain?

Are people who ‘require medication’ not permitted to have or to express opinions?

Are you expressing your opinion in a professional capacity (in which case, perhaps you choice of forum might be questioned)? However, if you are not expressing an opinion in a professional capacity, in what capacity then, are you expressing it?

I don’t agree entirely with Robert’s opinion- but I feel that these ad hominem attacks are contrary to charity.

I note that others who also disagree with Robert (such as Tonrey) manage to remain polite and civil. Perhaps you might like to consider his excellent example.
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No, it doesn’t explain a lot about this thread. It explains a lot in general. I’ve previously suspected and voiced the opinion that Robert might be a troll, due to his somewhat erratic method of not responding to opposition, and I’m glad to find that is not the case.

I never made any statement saying that Robert does not deserve to voice his opinions, but only that if he decides to make a point, he should respond to objections made against it.

I know that when I make a thread with a certain premise or thesis, I will remain in the thread defending my position until either all objections are answered, or I am proven wrong and accept correction.

This discovery has enabled me to look at the situation with a new light, and instead of trying to mitigate the effect of what I previously perceived as a troll, I can now approach the situation with a gentler frame of mind.
 
meltzerboy said:
Such sadness and weeping is always for specific reasons. It would be abnormal not to be sad when bad things happen to individuals or to people as a whole. That is quite different, however, from indulging in misery about the sorry state of affairs in the world. Judaism has always believed in taking action in the face of adversity rather than bemoaning one’s fate. Even the period of mourning upon the death of a family member consists of a prescribed time frame according to Jewish Law, and then one is supposed to resume one’s normal life. That does not mean one should live in a self-centered way without any regard for the misery of others. Hillel the Elder writes: “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am for myself alone, what am I? And if not now, when?” IOW, one must rejoice in living, aid others to relieve their suffering, and act now, not wait for tomorrow.
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In the Christian tradition, there is a virtue referred to as ‘penthos’, or ‘compunction’. Basically, it refers to a kind of sorrow, not linked to an specific cause, but rather a general sense of existential guilt, or metaphysical exile. There are stories of Desert Fathers who were perpetually in tears as their worked. It was regarded as a special gift. The story is that St. Francis of Assisi become almost blind from perpetual tears of compunction. There are stories of saints who always smiled and laughed in company (out of desire to be charitable) but were always melancholy in private.

John Cassian talks about the gift of tears. He says, even if God does not grants the gifts of tears, even the desire for it is a grace from God.

Well, I don’t mention these as particularly recommending them. Personally, I think such an attitude can be dangerous, unless it is understood in the light of very great spiritual experience, and very robust psychological health. But it is a part of the Christian tradition.
 
Robert_Sock said:
I direct my LOVE towards those I love, which sometimes includes joy, but I always carry a special sadness in my heart because of all the sadness this world evokes.

GOODNIGHT!!! 🙂
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The sadness should not outweigh the joy Jesus gives us if we are aware of His infinite love. Otherwise we are a bad example for those who don’t believe and we deter them from becoming Christians. “Look how miserable they are: killjoys and spoilsports who think everything is a sin - even being alive!”
 
Qoeleth said:
In the Christian tradition, there is a virtue referred to as ‘penthos’, or ‘compunction’. Basically, it refers to a kind of sorrow, not linked to an specific cause, but rather a general sense of existential guilt, or metaphysical exile. There are stories of Desert Fathers who were perpetually in tears as their worked. It was regarded as a special gift. The story is that St. Francis of Assisi become almost blind from perpetual tears of compunction. There are stories of saints who always smiled and laughed in company (out of desire to be charitable) but were always melancholy in private.

John Cassian talks about the gift of tears. He says, even if God does not grants the gifts of tears, even the desire for it is a grace from God.

Well, I don’t mention these as particularly recommending them. Personally, I think such an attitude can be dangerous, unless it is understood in the light of very great spiritual experience, and very robust psychological health. But it is a part of the Christian tradition.
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I don’t know whether this may also be a part of certain streams of Jewish tradition. No doubt individual Jews I know have this sense of existential sadness, guilt, and metaphysical exile. I personally feel there is a sadness in many people regarding the miseries found in their own life and in the world, as well as the unanswered questions they have concerning the meaning of it all. Nonetheless, I also believe that both Judaism and Christianity caution us not to indulge in despair for prolonged periods of time but instead to rejoice in the blessings and hope that G-d has bestowed upon us even in the midst of bad times.
 
Qoeleth said:
In the Christian tradition, there is a virtue referred to as ‘penthos’, or ‘compunction’. Basically, it refers to a kind of sorrow, not linked to an specific cause, but rather a general sense of existential guilt, or metaphysical exile. There are stories of Desert Fathers who were perpetually in tears as their worked. It was regarded as a special gift. The story is that St. Francis of Assisi become almost blind from perpetual tears of compunction. There are stories of saints who always smiled and laughed in company (out of desire to be charitable) but were always melancholy in private.

John Cassian talks about the gift of tears. He says, even if God does not grants the gifts of tears, even the desire for it is a grace from God.

Well, I don’t mention these as particularly recommending them. Personally, I think such an attitude can be dangerous, unless it is understood in the light of very great spiritual experience, and very robust psychological health. But it is a part of the Christian tradition.
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👍 An interesting and instructive post.
 
What does it mean to pick up our cross and follow Christ? Does it create earthly happiness? Of course not! The cross itself is full of sorrow. The great spiritual joy comes from carrying our cross knowing that it’s leading to Everlasting happiness. This ought to be the target of our experiences of joy, not earthly joy.
 
He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will.”

as you can see Jesus was not a masochist, of course picking up our cross and following Christ will have some pains and sorrows, but they will come to us, not that we will look for them, except in some cases.

I think your main problem is that you want to make things that are not obligatory into obligation for everyone.
 
DMC12 said:
I think your main problem is that you want to make things that are not obligatory into obligation for everyone.
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Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

This sounds obligatory to me (if one is to follow Christ).
 
Robert_Sock said:
Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
This sounds obligatory to me (if one is to follow Christ).
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Where in this passage does it say that the cross = perpetual sadness?
 
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