Is it ok to listen to Dr Taylor Marshall?

[CatholicSooner]

Trent Horn said it best when he said something like- apologetics used to be about defending against Fundamentalist Protestants then it moved into defending against the New Atheists. Today, apologetics work is now about defending Catholicism from the radical traditionalists (which I would include Taylor Marshall in that camp).

It’s hard to recommend listening to him because of his conspiratorial mindset which I know a lot of people subscribe to. However, I listen to him, but not because I agree with him and champion his cause. I listen to know what this group thinks so I can be better equipped to defend the Catholic faith- all of it- including the teachings of Vatican 2.

There is most certainly a battle between traditional catholicism and liberal catholicism. And each side thinks they are in the right. Each side has some soul searching to do. I side with the Traditionalists as they are trying to preserve thousands of years of teaching and tradition. The other side seems to be very progressive and all about emotions. I’d rather side with those defending historical catholicism than those that sound more protestant.

But like I said, both sides are extreme or can be.
I’m curious what kind of inner fights there were in Catholicism pre vatican 2. Was it all roses like trads like to make it sound like it was?

 

[MarkRome]

I am 99% sure it was Trent Horn but I can’t find it now. It was in a recent podcast (CA Live maybe?). Now, it seems to him, that the focus is on defending the faith internally with other Catholics due to the growing “traditionalist” movement.

 

[CatholicSooner]

I am 99% sure it was Trent Horn but I can’t find it now. It was in a recent podcast (CA Live maybe?). Now, it seems to him, that the focus is on defending the faith internally with other Catholics due to the growing “traditionalist” movement.

I find that hard to believe. I believe he attends an eastern rite church as his home parish and has talked about how he still does the western sign of the cross but needs to switch.

At least I envision Eastern rites to be more traditional than OF Latin Rite

 

[commenter]

There is most certainly a battle between traditional catholicism and liberal catholicism. And each side thinks they are in the right. Each side has some soul searching to do. I side with the Traditionalists as they are trying to preserve thousands of years of teaching and tradition.

Actually there are not two sides, but four:

1. Orthodox Catholics
2. Progressives
3. Traditionalists (solo Traditio)
4. Fundamentalist influenced Catholics (Sola Scriptura)

Groups 2 and 4 tend to reject the Magisterium in theory and in practice.
Group 3 accepts the Magisterium in theory, but not in practice.

The real battles now are not between liberals and traditionalists. Rather, Orthodox Catholics have to fight with one hand against the progressives, and with the other against the Traditionalists.

In fact, group 2 and group 3 sound more alike with each passing year.

Somewhere there’s an office. If the call comes in on line 1, the secretary says “National Catholic Reporter. How may I direct your anger?”

But if it comes in on line 2, she says “OnePeter5, or Dr Marshall’s, or something, What is your bishop related atrocity today?”

 

[MagdalenaRita]

misleading titles is morally wrong and I would think it is a sin too

So, I didn’t say the title was misleading. It is perhaps click bait but they did discuss Pope Francis and the new evangelization and the conversion of souls.

If you check out his FB profile you will some photos in which his children/wife are immodestly dressed certainly by Trad standards,

In all charity, I probably wouldn’t judge a family or the way they dress by a couple of photos on the internet. I hope Dr. Marshall will make changes on his FB page to protect his wife and children from being attacked. I read that is why the TNT videos have died down a little, to protect their families.

apparently he has a tattoo also

While there are some Christians, Catholics and non-Catholics who think tattoos are a sin, I am not sure they are, so I would not judge a person based on a tattoo, especially not knowing when he got it and since today you are going to be hard pressed to find a lot of people without one. Tattoos do not usually affect one’s theology.

The more Iresearch about him the more he looks like a Pharsiee

While I don’t agree with everything Taylor Marshall says, he does do some very good videos and does attend a Catholic church, just like the rest of us. I do understand what you mean by the word Pharisee but it still means Jewish leader and I am pretty sure he is not a Jewish leader. I am also pretty sure God did not give us the assignment to judge who is being pharisaical. As a matter of fact he instructed us in quite the opposite. Plus you could probably find a little bit of pharisee in all of us.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

• Orthodox Catholics
• Progressives
• Traditionalists (solo Traditio)
• Fundamentalist influenced Catholics (Sola Scriptura)

I’m not sure I would agree with this.

I haven’t met or talked to a Catholic who believes in Tradition alone absent of Scripture and the Magisterium, nor have I met a Catholic who believes in Sola Scriptura, Bible alone, absent of Tradition and the Magisterium.

I have always found that Traditionalists accept Scripture, Church teaching and the Traditions of the Church as one. The Bible alone people have more than likely left the Church and entered into Protestantism if that is what they believe.

To be Orthodox is to be Traditional, to follow all of the Church.

Progressives seem to just want the Church to fit into the world.

 

[commenter]

haven’t met or talked to a Catholic who believes in Tradition alone absent strong textof Scripture and the Magisterium,

Orthodox Catholics are all traditional.
They recognize the authority of Tradition, Scripture, and the current Magisterium.
But in 2019, there is a strong anti-religious-authority movement in the secular culture. This is part of the larger anti authority trend. On TV shows, the kids are wiser than the parents, the workers are wiser than the boss, and on, and on. Every hero is an anti-hero, who defies The Authorities.

Thus, some tradition minded Catholics have moved beyond criticizing a bishop because he is a liberal. Now they often criticize a bishop because he’s a bishop

Nowadays some have moved out of orthodoxy into Traditionalism, at least some of the time. They evaluate, rather than benefit from the current Magisterium. It’s not wrong that they evaluate it, it’s wrong they can do nothing else except evaluate. No benefit.

People like Fr. Mitch Pacwa, S. J. avoid the Traditionalism trap, but remain fully orthodox.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Orthodox Catholics are all traditional .
They recognize the authority of Tradition, Scripture, and the current Magisterium.

Yes and that is what I also said in my above post. Also not all traditionalists are sedevacantists. As a matter of fact, very few are sedevacantists, so yes Traditionalists recognize the current Magisterium but that doesn’t mean we follow what the current Magisterium says that is not infallible if it contradicts Scripture and Tradition.

Nowadays some have moved out of orthodoxy into Traditionalism , at least some of the time…

They evaluate ,

So Traditionalism doesn’t equal evaluate the Magisterium. There are those who do sure, but that doesn’t mean that the only thing Traditionalists do is evaluate their bishops and Pope…

Also, pondering your list of four types of Catholics, there are two groups you left out.
There are those who believe in the Magisterium alone, rejecting the Scriptures and Tradition.

Also, Cafeteria Catholics would be those who reject the authority of all three and follow their own authority.

I’m sure if we think a little more we would realize there are other types of Catholics also, but one thing we all have in common, we are Catholic.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

At least I envision Eastern rites to be more traditional than OF Latin Rite

It is the Eastern rite Catholics in my area that have kept our local Catholic high school orthodox and faithful to the Church. Very grateful.

 

[gracepoole]

Actually there are not two sides, but four:

1. Orthodox Catholics
2. Progressives
3. Traditionalists (solo Traditio)
4. Fundamentalist influenced Catholics (Sola Scriptura)

In reality I’d say the groups are a bit different:

1. Sedevacantist
2. SSPX & SSPX resistance
3. Traditional
4. Conservative
5. Typical OF parishioners (I’d guess this is at least 90% of American Catholics) – they likely have no stated affiliation with any of the other groups listed here
6. Progressives/liberals

 

[ioannes_pius]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

There is no such thing as “liberal Catholicism” or “conservative Catholicism.” There is simply Catholicism. Catholicism is Orthodox and Traditional by nature. You either are Catholic, or you are not.

 

[gracepoole]

Except that when describing the various types of attitudes one finds in Catholic circles, descriptors are needed. You’re speaking of an ideal situation – in real life, there are all sorts of different types of Catholics. It’s just a painful truth.

 

[ioannes_pius]

True, there are different types of Catholics. I don’t deny that.

What I’m saying is that it is the will of the Holy See that Catholics avoid using such terms to distinguish the various groups of Catholics.

 

[abinjoy]

No one attacked Taylor seeing the photos of his family in FB…But as a specialist in criticizing the Pope he will also be scrutinized by others…My point is although he claims to be faithful/traditional catholic he conveniently glorifies certain sins, and promotes it through FB which can lead others to sin .

I am from India - one sixth of worlds population lives in India…( 4 times the population of America) you will find millions of people without a tattoo.

I used the term Pharisee figuratively… Pharisees were called by Jesus often for their holier than you attitude. Yes in all probabilities there is a bit of pharisee in me but I don’t sit in front of a camera and attack Pope every week and upload clickbait videos

 

[abinjoy]

Another thing to note- In Taylor’s vidoe’s you will find clever use of Pope’s imagery which can influence people against Pope. IF you go to his youtube channel and observe you will find him trying to portray as a wicked man (and laughing) in a video where ask the question - why does Pope favour Blaise Cupich.
That is just one example. These kind of deceptive marketing tricks are certainly a sin and when it is done on a large scale like using them in a youtube to attract and influence people I think it is a mortal sin.
You will see church militant also use these type of clever and wicked tactis to influence people

When bible very clearly says"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword” Marshall goes to a shooting range and posts photos of him the panchamama guy holding guns at a gun store…Despite being a trad or a whatever catholic he is Taylor ignore divine words according to his convenience

Controversial ‘Pachamama Thief’ Goes on U.S. Tour - The Tablet

One month after famously stealing indigenous statues and throwing them into Rome’s Tiber river, the man who has quickly become one of the global Church’s most polarizing figures is now making his way across the U.S. hosted by traditionalist Catholics.

thetablet.org

Controversial ‘Pachamama Thief’ Goes on U.S. Tour - The Tablet

One month after famously stealing indigenous statues and throwing them into Rome’s Tiber river, the man who has quickly become one of the global Church’s most polarizing figures is now making his way across the U.S. hosted by traditionalist Catholics.

thetablet.org

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I am from India - one sixth of worlds population lives in India…( 4 times the population of America) you will find millions of people without a tattoo.

When bible very clearly says"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword” Marshall goes to a shooting range and posts photos of him the panchamama guy holding guns at a gun store…

Things can look different when looking through the eyes of different countries and cultures. Not being from India I can only speak for what I know here in America. Tattoos are extremly common today. I would say mostly among the youth but I see that changing and many older Americans are now getting tattoos. I, personally am not a fan of them and do not have one, mostly because of their permanance and wonder what people will do someday when they are tired of the tattoos they have. I think there probably is a point where one can consider tattoos sinful, perhaps the image in the tattoo or the amount of tattooing one does to oneself.

Right now in America guns and gun rights are very controversial. I agree with you about guns, (do not like them at all. They have one purpose) but having a gun doesn’t necessarily mean sin. Some people do have one in their homes just for protection. Personally I prefer prayer and trusting God for protection.

In Taylor’s vidoe’s you will find clever use of Pope’s imagery which can influence people against Pope.

Yes, I do not like this either, even though I do not agree with everything Pope Francis says and does, he is the Pope, does do a lot of good and should be treated with respect.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I don’t think evil can touch any one if they really pray and believe in Psalms 91 and also pray the rosary every day …

Yes, I agree. I love Psalm 91 and the rosary. Both should be prayed every day.

However when people like Taylor ETC who advocate for guns (who prays rosary everyday ) it clearly shows their lack of faith in God.

That could be true. I agree. I’m not sure what the mindset is here in America for Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who feel the need for guns for protection but then I did not grow up with that mindset.

There is no such thing as “liberal Catholicism” or “conservative Catholicism.” There is simply Catholicism. Catholicism is Orthodox and Traditional by nature. You either are Catholic, or you are not.

gracepoole:

Except that when describing the various types of attitudes one finds in Catholic circles, descriptors are needed. You’re speaking of an ideal situation – in real life, there are all sorts of different types of Catholics. It’s just a painful truth.

I love that quote from Pope Benedict XV. I think I agree with gracepoole though, that today we have such differing attitudes, descriptors are somewhat needed.

Why I Call Myself a “Traditional Catholic”

There are a lot of negative stereotypes associated with being a traditional Catholic, but I embrace the label nonetheless.

ericsammons.com

…putting a label before the word “Catholic” is by necessity dividing Catholics into multiple groups. And if you know the meaning of the term “Catholic” (“universal”), you’ll know that any label before the word is essentially oxymoronic. It should be an instinct of every Catholic to want to be “just Catholic.” However, we unfortunately live in an age when saying we are “just Catholic” is a luxury we can’t indulge in. Due the confusion that has reigned throughout the Church the past sixty years—from top to bottom—it is hard to say anymore what it means to be “just Catholic”. Eric Sammons

 

[commenter]

There are those who believe in the Magisterium alone, rejecting the Scriptures and Tradition.

True.

When I was a child one of my favorite shows was “Father Know Best”. Back then, the parents ALWAYS knew best. The teachers were portrayed wiser than the students, etc. President Eisenhower was respected by all.

Religious leaders were always portrayed with respect by the secular media.

In that environment, I could see how some might be tempted to over emphasis on your current bishop. It is possible this temptation reaches a few today, but far less than yesterday.

Today the bigger temptation is in the opposite direction. The anti-authority movement in the secular culture is empowering both progressives and Traditionalists.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I agree. I also still love the show Father Knows Best.

My thought is that there are many Catholics in between progressivism and traditionalism that reject authority also. Those caught in the middle can be pretty opinionated.
Then I would definitely not want to disclude the reality that not all traditionalists, nor all progressives reject authority. We dont want to judge all based on a few.

 

[ioannes_pius]

I think it’s due to the fact that we over-complicate it ourselves, and I don’t believe that’s an excuse to continue using labels.