Is it Possible...a non-Catholic Saint?

[tee_eff_em]

Regi:

I don’t think there are any non-Catholic saints.

]

Of course there are: Moses, Abraham, Adam and Eve, etc. They were admitted into Heaven when Christ rose and opened the gates, so they are saints.

Yeah, they *were * non-Catholic… But *are * they non-Catholic *now * that they are saints?

(it is kind of a tense situation )

 

[Dr.Colossus]

Here’s the problem with the idea of the Church canonizing non-Catholics:

Sainthood is an infallible statement by the Church that the person canonized is in heaven. It is Catholic doctrine that outside the Church there is no salvation. There has been much debate about what “outside the Church” really means, but basically, anyone who is not Catholic can be inside the Church by ways known only to God. Therefore, the Church cannot infallibly pronounce that these people, holy as they may be, have made it to heaven.

 

[STJOMO]

Are there any saints that we thought of as non-Catholic?

I don’t know. But, if they are in Heaven with Our Lord, I’d sure like to meet them.

 

[Regi]

tee_eff_em:

Yeah, they *were * non-Catholic… But *are * they non-Catholic *now * that they are saints?

(it is kind of a tense situation )

Were they baptised? They did not need to be to be admitted to heaven - they existed before baptism did. Thus, they were (are) not Catholic, in the sense of being baptised and following the Catholic church.

 

[rfk]

prodromos:

That’s because the church predates the church. I think you will find that the church began in Genesis 2:7

Well, you are correct that I was sloppy in language. I meant the “new age of the Church”, commonly recognized by Catholics as being instituted by Christ and revealed by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

In terms of the more generic usage of “Church”, meaning the name given the convocation or assembly of the People God, I would question, however, if one would date it to Gn 2:7.

God certainly created man to be the “family of God”, so in that sense the creation of man is an appropriate starting point. However, the Catechism also teaches:
761:

The gathering together of the People of God began at the moment when sin destroyed the communion of men with God, and that of men among themselves. The gathering together of the Church is, as it were, God’s reaction to the chaos provoked by sin. This reunification is achieved secretly in the heart of all peoples: “In every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable” to God.156

So one might well point to Gn 3:6 and original sin. However, the Catechism also points to:
762:

The remote preparation for this gathering together of the People of God begins when he calls Abraham and promises that he will become the father of a great people.157 Its immediate preparation begins with Israel’s election as the People of God.

This would lead us to Gn 22:15-18.

Anyway, this is all fun nitpicking. You and I are both in agreement that “the Church” is a broader term than simply the post-Christ Catholic Church.

 

[Mike_C]

Yes, in the Eastern Churches of the Catholic Church we honor the Old Testament figures as saints, but we do call them “Saint so and so”. Even Michael the Archangel should not be refered to as “St. Michael” as a saint was a living person. We call “Elijah the Prophet”, we have our cars blessed on the Sunday closest to his feast day (July 20), also the Carmelite Order honors him as their founder (or spiritual father), also Moses the Lawgiver, Job the much-suffering, etc.
Yes, when Christ rose from the dead He brought all of the righteous to Heaven. Think about it; St. Anne and St. Joseph weren’t baptized either. The Latin Church honors the Macabees also.

I don’t think Anglicans were among the Martyrs of Uganda. I have to read their accounts again. Some converted from paganism or the Moslem religion, and became Anglican and then Catholic. I’m not sure about the Korean martyrs.

 

[Eagleduck]

Below is an account of Charles Lwanga excerpted from the “Index of Saints” at the website of St. Patrick’s Church in Washington, D.C.:

"[In 1885,] King Mwanga of Uganda took as chief steward a young Christian named Joseph Msaka Balikuddembe. Joseph detested the king’s debauched ways, especially his attempts to corrupt other young men of Uganda, whom the steward tried to protect. Mwanga distrusted foreign visitors, fearing they might report his evil ways to the British government, which had given him his power.
"[King Mwanga] discovered that a 14-year-old page, Mwafu, had been receiving instruction in the Catholic faith. He called for Denis Sebuggwago, who had been teaching the page, and killed him by thrusting a butcher’s cleaver or spear through his throat. That night Charles Lwanga, the new master of the pages, baptized five of them including Kizito, who [sic] he had repeatedly rescued from Mwanga’s pederasty.

"The next day the baptisms were discovered. Enraged, Mwanga assembled all the pages and ordered the Christians to separate themselves from the others. Fifteen, all under the age of 25, did so at once and were later joined by two others who were already under arrest and by two soldiers. They were asked if they wished to remain Christian and each replied, “Until death.” The king then ordered every Protestant and Catholic living in the royal enclosure to be put to death.

“Thirty-two Catholics and Protestants were led 37 miles away to a place called Namugongo to be burned to death in a literal holocaust. Three were killed on the way. One of these, a district judge named Matthias Kalemba, declared, “God will rescue me. But you will not see how he does it, because he will take my soul and leave you only my body.” He was cut into pieces and left to die slowly by the roadside.”

The companions of St. Charles Lwanga were cannonized with him as a group, without distinction.

 

[Jenlyn]

I found this after doing a search and wanted to add to it. Hope you don’t mind.

If you were a Catholic with lots of sin unconfessed God would not look upon you and give you graces. God is the source of all good. The only way a sinful person, catholic or non-catholic, can recieve any grace from God is to go to confession. The catholic church is the only way to accomplish this.

Jesus also said that “If you eat this bread and drink this blood you will have life within you.” Catholics are the only ones who offer this through the Eucharist.

In order to live like Christ we must do what Christ instructs us. Isn’t that the definition of being a saint?

So I don’t think that a non-catholic can be a saint here on earth, which sadly means they will have to suffer purgatory. It is very important then to pray for the conversion of the non-catholics and non-believers.

 

[bones_IV]

Maybe this will help. When we state the apostles creed the part “I believe in the communion of saints” means those in heaven, in purgatory and those in a state of grace on earth are in the communion of saints. Are the non-catholics in state of grace in the communion of saints. Yes they are, in a broad sense, but yes.

Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”

 

[tru_dvotion]

bones_IV:

Maybe this will help. When we state the apostles creed the part “I believe in the communion of saints” means those in heaven, in purgatory and those in a state of grace on earth are in the communion of saints. Are the non-catholics in state of grace in the communion of saints. Yes they are, in a broad sense, but yes.

Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”

Bones, I disagree.

Source: Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/star.gif RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE, dated December 2nd, 1984.

The Pope is saying that a Catholic must seek out a priest to confess their sins and ask forgiveness ***only through the priest,***and that this “sacrament” of confession/penance is undermined by those who think they can directly approach God directly for forgiveness. This makes the Catholic priest essential in the process of salvation, since he stands in the place of God, as another mediator between man and God. This is not a novel teaching in the Catholic Church, is has a long history.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

In my oppinion there are many non catholic saints in heaven. I may be one of them God willing. Everyone is making assumptions because no one really knows. No one has come back to let us know. Wait were those Catholic saints in Johns vision in revelation.?

 

[jimmy]

Edwin1961:

While taking my morning walk, the thought had occured to me…Is it possible for a non-Catholic Saint?
I am referring to someone like Ronald Reagan. Why?
On Revelant Radio, it was mentioned that the majority of Pres. Reagan’s cabinet and staff were devout Catholics. Plus his father (Jack) was Catholic. If intercession prayers were prayed to Ronald Reagan, would and could God have miracles possible? I certainly believe that with God ALL things ARE possible, so…

I can forsee portraits of Ronald Reagan in many Catholic homes regardless such a happening, more so than pics of JFK in Catholic homes in the 1960’s & 1970’s.

What are your thoughts?

Go with God!
Edwin

There are non-Catholic saints. A saint is just someone who is in Heaven. But there will never be anyone who was not a Catholic who will be declared a Saint by the Catholic Church.

Although, Reagan was a great man, I wouldn’t consider him to be like a St. Francis or a St. Thomas More or anything like that. The saints are the ones who devoted there lives to Christ and did everything for Christ.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

jimmy:

There are non-Catholic saints. A saint is just someone who is in Heaven. But there will never be anyone who was not a Catholic who will be declared a Saint by the Catholic Church.

Although, Reagan was a great man, I wouldn’t consider him to be like a St. Francis or a St. Thomas More or anything like that. The saints are the ones who devoted there lives to Christ and did everything for Christ.

Your right Jimmy,the odds of you being declared a Saint by the Catholic Church are probably a million to one.

 

[Jenlyn]

bones_IV:

Maybe this will help.

Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”

I’m not sure what you mean by help? Help what?

I am quoting the Catachesim 946-948, "What is the church if not the assembly of all saints? The communion of saints is the church.

Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others… Therefore the riches of Christ are communicated to all members, throught the sacraments.

"The term ‘communion of saints’ therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion “in holy things” and “amoung holy persons.”

It is through the sacraments that we have possiblity to be made holy. “Nothing unclean will enter heaven.” Revelation 21:27

Jen

 

[Jenlyn]

SPOKENWORD:

In my oppinion there are many non catholic saints in heaven. I may be one of them God willing. Everyone is making assumptions because no one really knows. No one has come back to let us know. Wait were those Catholic saints in Johns vision in revelation.?

May God give peace to your mind first of all.

I do think there are non-catholic saints in heaven, relax! They just have to go through purgatory first. Just like the rest of us who don’t confess our sins. We must confess our sins as Jesus said in the bible, "He breathed on them, and said to them, “Recieve the Holy Spirit. Wose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” John 20:22-23

Peace,
Jen

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Jenlyn:

May God give peace to your mind first of all.

I do think there are non-catholic saints in heaven, relax! They just have to go through purgatory first. Just like the rest of us who don’t confess our sins. We must confess our sins as Jesus said in the bible, "He breathed on them, and said to them, “Recieve the Holy Spirit. Wose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” John 20:22-23

Peace,
Jen

Jen, My mind is full of Gods peace,May he bring you His peace and love also. Nothing impure is coming into the kingdom. May we be purged before we enter.

 

[Jenlyn]

SPOKENWORD:

Your right Jimmy,the odds of you being declared a Saint by the Catholic Church are probably a million to one.

Does it really matter?

This from an excerpt from “Litany of Humility”

That others may be loved more than I, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.

That, in the opinion of the world, others may increase and I may decrease, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be chosen and I set aside, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it

That others may be praised and I unnoticed, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be preferred to me in everything, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may become holier than I, provided I may become as holy as I should, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it."

Spokenword all the saints talk about humility over and over again! There weren’t worried about becoming a saint. They had their eyes fixed on Jesus. Blinded by his love. Dying to themselves submitting to His will. I love the song Humble thyself in the sight the Lord. Through humility we find Jesus. It isn’t about us, it’s about Him! He makes us saints. All we can do is pray that God makes us a saint. He does the rest.

Set your sights beyond this world and yourself. Find Jesus in the sacraments. You will be amazed what happens to you!

Glory be to God!

Jen

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Jenlyn:

Does it really matter?

This from an excerpt from “Litany of Humility”

That others may be loved more than I, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.

That, in the opinion of the world, others may increase and I may decrease, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be chosen and I set aside, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it

That others may be praised and I unnoticed, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be preferred to me in everything, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may become holier than I, provided I may become as holy as I should, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it."

Spokenword all the saints talk about humility over and over again! There weren’t worried about becoming a saint. They had their eyes fixed on Jesus. Blinded by his love. Dying to themselves submitting to His will. I love the song Humble thyself in the sight the Lord. Through humility we find Jesus. It isn’t about us, it’s about Him! He makes us saints. All we can do is pray that God makes us a saint. He does the rest.

Set your sights beyond this world and yourself. Find Jesus in the sacraments. You will be amazed what happens to you!

Glory be to God!

Jen

No ,It really doesnt matter. The Bonus for the Big] Saint is that he bypasses purgatory[purging]But you are right,the focus is to keep your eyes on Jesus and follow Him.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Those who are not baptized will not go to Heaven, and those baptized who have committed mortal sin after their baptism without confessing it in the Sacrament of Penance will not go to Heaven.

No doubt, non-Catholic Christians can get to heaven, but in all probability require lengthy purification in Purgatory. Any other point of view would render the Sacraments redundant so the question would have to be addressed why would Jesus have instituted the Sacraments if they were not important for our salvation?

Not living or dying in the state of grace would render a non Catholic’s sainthood a contradiction. Those we Catholics deem worthy of sainthood, in other words, to be worthy to petition for intercessory prayer would have to have lived exemplary lives on all accounts.

The saints who will wash their garments in the blood of the lamb in St John’s Revelation will be the Catholic martyrs who would have persevered until the end under the most trying of circumstances.

So what is Sanctifying Grace?

We receive Sanctifying Grace at our Baptism.

“**State of **Grace” is the presence of Sanctifying Grace in the soul.

We must be in a **State of **Grace when we die to go to Heaven.

Mortal sin eradicates Sanctifying Grace from the soul.

Since we cannot be baptized again, Christ gave us the Sacrament of Penance to restore Sanctifying Grace to the soul.

The only exception to this is perfect contrition at the moment of death when the Sacrament is not available.

Valid confession requires:

to be sorry for offending God,

to have resolve to not to sin again,

to confess all mortal sins remembered in kind and in number,

to perform the penance imposed.

the priest must say: “I absolve you”,

the priest must be validly ordained,

the priest must have been granted the faculty by his Bishop to hear confessions.

(A priest who does not have this faculty (eg, a laicized priest or a priest of the Society of St Pius X) cannot validly absolve anyone except in danger of death where a priest with the faculty is not available.)

This is deadly serious stuff. Let no one convince you otherwise.

 

[Jenlyn]

tru_dvotion:

This is deadly serious stuff. Let no one convince you otherwise.

I totally agree! That is why Spokenword should join the RCIA program. Come on Spokenword! :clapping:

I hope you don’t mind the evangilization!

Jen