S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
And have you considered every time you hurt the body of Christ every part of the body feels the pain.
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T
tru_dvotion
Guest
Oh yes. I am keenly aware. Every time you attack it Word.And have you considered every time you hurt the body of Christ every part of the body feels the pain.
B
bones_IV
Guest
Tru devotion,
You refuse to acknowledge my answer that I provided. You interpret John Paul II’s letters the way you want to. Your literal interpretation makes you protestant in every sense of the word! You disrespected the EWTN post I gave and evidently failed to read it. EWTN is loyal to the magistrerium and doctrine and has more credibility than you have. I’m going to make this plain and simple. You are a heretic!
Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”
B
beng
Guest
What point are trying to infer from Fr Levis’ answer?
T
tru_dvotion
Guest
I apologize; I have not looked it yet. Simply because I have no time now. I will look at it and will give you a response as soon as I am able. Now I must go. I only had spurts of time this morning to be at my computer. I know it appeared I was on line, but I was actually away. You posted it very late I believe it was yesterday.
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Sorry Tru, Im not attacking it, .When are you going to realize that you cant fight the Word of God.?
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
TO BENG;
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPOKENWORD
Beng, whats your point about exact numbers?
This:
There are those who profess to be christian but it action that counts. To many pewers and not enough doers.
I wanna know if YOU do any “action”.
Quote: Now it wouldnt be very Christlike if I began to walk around with all my peacock feathers sticking out would it? My Father in heaven knows what I do. The Question should be what do I [beng]do?,for God is going to ask you .
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPOKENWORD
Beng, whats your point about exact numbers?
This:
There are those who profess to be christian but it action that counts. To many pewers and not enough doers.
I wanna know if YOU do any “action”.
Quote: Now it wouldnt be very Christlike if I began to walk around with all my peacock feathers sticking out would it? My Father in heaven knows what I do. The Question should be what do I [beng]do?,for God is going to ask you .
J
jimmy
Guest
If I need to go to purgatory I would be happy to go through it. It would be nice to be that good of a person.I agree, but isnt it a great feeling if you were one[Big S] you could go pass Go [Purgatory].
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tru_dvotion
Guest
Dear Bones,
First of all, even if you address me, I am not bound to respond, and I certainly do not have to respond at your convenience. Secondly, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from personal attacks and name calling.
Regarding the link you were so insistent I respond to: I red it carefully and I am somewhat puzzled why you would even think it makes a difference in the debate? You see, there is nothing in Father Levis’ short paragraph to contradict anything I have stated so far. To quote him:
“If and when this person dies in what we call the state of Grace, i.e. no serious sin or attachment to serious sin on his plate, then at the moment he dies, he is saved.”
I would think a Christian who covets, commits adultery, has false gods (any type of addiction) commits a mortal sin. He has full awareness of the Ten Commandments, and unless he has legitimate impairment, he would have fully consented to the sin. Show me a Christian who never fell once, never sinned against one of the Ten Commandments during his lifetime and I will agree with you. A person with no serious sin or attachment on his plate to quote the good father will indeed get into heaven. But is there such a Christian? So then the question is: What other recourse is there for the fallen individual besides confession? But being a Protestant he does not go to confession. So what is he to do? Be sorry for his sins? That is a start, but is it enough? Would a Protestant have a different set of rules applied to him than the rest of us? Is he not part of the same Body?
But you know each man is for himself, if anyone is willing to take that chance, go right ahead: take that chance. Its only eternal life in heaven that is at stake! Remain a Protestant and never go to confession. All you charitable fellow Catholics, who fail to warn your Protestant brethren and even encourage them to remain in their delusion could be contributing to their downfall. Unless you confess failing to warn others of the impending danger you will also die with a mortal sin on your souls. I sincerely hope you all will be forgiven. But given that authority to bind and to loose is the responsibility of the Church, you are all taking mighty big risks.
First of all, even if you address me, I am not bound to respond, and I certainly do not have to respond at your convenience. Secondly, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from personal attacks and name calling.
Regarding the link you were so insistent I respond to: I red it carefully and I am somewhat puzzled why you would even think it makes a difference in the debate? You see, there is nothing in Father Levis’ short paragraph to contradict anything I have stated so far. To quote him:
“If and when this person dies in what we call the state of Grace, i.e. no serious sin or attachment to serious sin on his plate, then at the moment he dies, he is saved.”
I would think a Christian who covets, commits adultery, has false gods (any type of addiction) commits a mortal sin. He has full awareness of the Ten Commandments, and unless he has legitimate impairment, he would have fully consented to the sin. Show me a Christian who never fell once, never sinned against one of the Ten Commandments during his lifetime and I will agree with you. A person with no serious sin or attachment on his plate to quote the good father will indeed get into heaven. But is there such a Christian? So then the question is: What other recourse is there for the fallen individual besides confession? But being a Protestant he does not go to confession. So what is he to do? Be sorry for his sins? That is a start, but is it enough? Would a Protestant have a different set of rules applied to him than the rest of us? Is he not part of the same Body?
But you know each man is for himself, if anyone is willing to take that chance, go right ahead: take that chance. Its only eternal life in heaven that is at stake! Remain a Protestant and never go to confession. All you charitable fellow Catholics, who fail to warn your Protestant brethren and even encourage them to remain in their delusion could be contributing to their downfall. Unless you confess failing to warn others of the impending danger you will also die with a mortal sin on your souls. I sincerely hope you all will be forgiven. But given that authority to bind and to loose is the responsibility of the Church, you are all taking mighty big risks.
B
bones_IV
Guest
Tru devotion,
Tru devotion let me ask you this. Why would God condemn protestants of a delusion that’s not their fault? Think about it. Why would a Protestant not be in the communion of saints given that he’s ingorant of Christ and his Church and in a state of grace? The first step to evangelization is establishing a respect for other people’s faith. Only then can we truly evangelize. Protestants should go to confession? They have to be baptized first tru devotion into the Catholic faith. They would benefit better if they were in the Catholic Church. I evangelize by my example and when necessary use words. I accept the fact by the way that all protestants if they make to heaven become Catholic.
B
beng
Guest
What makes you think that Protestant are ignorant? They have the Bible. There’s Catholic Church around the corner. There are plenty of books in the library. They could go online too.
Do read this article about invincible ignorance by Jimmy Akin. You may need registration, but just register there. It’s free. Plus they have great library of article.
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tru_dvotion
Guest
Respose to Bones:
They are part of the Body but they are not in full communion. Remember the parable about Lazarus and the rich man? When the rich man got to Hades he begged Abraham to let him go back in order to warn his brothers. But Abraham told him, they would not believe even one coming back from the grave. They have the prophets and the laws to fall back on. Protestants are not some people living in a hut who never heard of the Gospel. They are fully aware the Catholic Church was started by Christ but they deny it and many have real hatred for the Catholic Church and would do anything to bring people out of it or deny their entry into it. Unawares? As unawares as someone persisting to smoke knowing full well, it will undermine his health and hasten his death. But they persist because they prefer error.
Now, as to your second question. Real evangelization has stopped when the modernists embarked on false ecumenism. Instead of converting, we encouraging Protestants to remain in their error. There are fewer conversions these days and the conversions that we have are not full conversions. The majority of new converts are still Protestant, but instead of teaching them to adopt to Catholicism, we allow them to minister to us and in turn our Catholics become protestantized. Nobody wins in the end. We have half converts and a large portion of our own are infected with Protestant ideas. Most Catholics these days are not fully aware of Catholic Dogma, Catechism or the Canons and they are more Protestant than Catholic. That is why people like me are branded as a traditionalist or sadenvacentist and such. Faithful sons and daughters of the Church are accused with schism for holding onto the one true faith without compromise, something that would have been unheard of fifty years ago.
They are part of the Body but they are not in full communion. Remember the parable about Lazarus and the rich man? When the rich man got to Hades he begged Abraham to let him go back in order to warn his brothers. But Abraham told him, they would not believe even one coming back from the grave. They have the prophets and the laws to fall back on. Protestants are not some people living in a hut who never heard of the Gospel. They are fully aware the Catholic Church was started by Christ but they deny it and many have real hatred for the Catholic Church and would do anything to bring people out of it or deny their entry into it. Unawares? As unawares as someone persisting to smoke knowing full well, it will undermine his health and hasten his death. But they persist because they prefer error.
Now, as to your second question. Real evangelization has stopped when the modernists embarked on false ecumenism. Instead of converting, we encouraging Protestants to remain in their error. There are fewer conversions these days and the conversions that we have are not full conversions. The majority of new converts are still Protestant, but instead of teaching them to adopt to Catholicism, we allow them to minister to us and in turn our Catholics become protestantized. Nobody wins in the end. We have half converts and a large portion of our own are infected with Protestant ideas. Most Catholics these days are not fully aware of Catholic Dogma, Catechism or the Canons and they are more Protestant than Catholic. That is why people like me are branded as a traditionalist or sadenvacentist and such. Faithful sons and daughters of the Church are accused with schism for holding onto the one true faith without compromise, something that would have been unheard of fifty years ago.
B
bones_IV
Guest
I recognize that fact that the communion of saints is the church. Just like the Catechism says. I actually looked in the catechism and you were right. Sorry about the misunderstanding we had. Thanks again for the excellent answer you provided.
Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”
Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”
B
bones_IV
Guest
Are you saying that all Protestants have been exposed the Catholic Church teaching? Just asking.
Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”
Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”
T
tru_dvotion
Guest
No, not everyone is Billy Graham. Of course they all are not aware. Just as many are not fully aware of the origin and the doctrine of the particular denomination they belong to. But whose responsibility is it to find out? Unless they are intellectually or physically impaired and are not able to find it out on their own, the responsibility is with them to find it out. If they seek God in truth they will find him in truth and not in some concocted mess that is the result of sin and some other man’s lustful ego and disobedience: Because that is how schisms begin, that IS what Protestantism is. I will not serve and I will only serve MY way. Do not forget, mainline Protestants have most of the Bible intact and they also have history and the moral law to consider. Many are well versed in the Scriptures. The better versed they are, of course, the greater is their responsibility to look for truth. To put it in simplistic terms, if I am raised without social graces and my parents failed to instruct me that certain behaviors are socially unacceptable, can I go through life behaving like a boor and just blame it on where I have come from? If I have sense, is it not my responsibility to learn to behave in a socially acceptable manner? Could I simply claim I did not know any better?
B
bones_IV
Guest
Hey folks,
This is interesting, get a load of this.
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=387635&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=invincible+ignorance&pgnu=1&groupnum=0
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=380493&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=invincible+ignorance&pgnu=1&groupnum=0
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=402044&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=invincible+ignorance&pgnu=1&groupnum=0
I’m sorry if I’ve said anything backwards to what you just said.
This is interesting, get a load of this.
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=387635&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=invincible+ignorance&pgnu=1&groupnum=0
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=380493&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=invincible+ignorance&pgnu=1&groupnum=0
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=402044&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=invincible+ignorance&pgnu=1&groupnum=0
I’m sorry if I’ve said anything backwards to what you just said.
B
beng
Guest
Good one from Fr Echert especially on this:
Invincible ignorance could never be a cause for salvation, but only a circumstance which God may take into consideration, when judging the culpability of a soul
Learn why is that for your further in-depth understanding.
This is good too. One might also read about the nature of invincible and vincible ignorance from this article by Jimmy Akin
We have to be cautious about this one but it’s not incorrect.
B
bones_IV
Guest
Are Protestants able to get to heaven? There have to be Protestants in heaven given that they become Catholic after death. I ask this because you have to keep in mind down in the south its mainly Protestant down there and very few Catholics like maybe below 10%. Just an estimate. Most of the towns have no Catholic Church in them. So how could they find out about the Catholic faith?
B
beng
Guest
There could NOT be non-catholics in Heaven. Think of the consequences. Can we have people who deny the papacy in Heaven? Can we have people who deny Mary’s virginity in Heaven? Can we have people who does not believe that the consecrated bread and wine is truly the body and blood of Jesus? Can we have poeple who think that Mohammed is a prophet? NO
If they cling to their falsehood until the last second of their death, they will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Would there be people who are not a card carrying member of the Catholic Church in Heaven? COULD BE. But these people are now Catholics.
Can Protestants/Orthodoxs/Hindus etc be saved? Depends. If they are still clinging to their falsehood until the last nano second of their life, they will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven. If they turned into catholics (somehow, someway) they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
How can Protestant/Orthodoxs/Moslem etc become Catholic? If they are invincible ignorance + sincerely seek God + not die in the state of mortal sin, there are a very reasonable chance that they will be joinned to the One True Church.
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tru_dvotion
Guest
Hi Beng,
The message center is not operating properly, so I did not see any point in sending you a private message. Lately it does not warn us of new mail. Thanks for the link on the other thread, it looks interesting. I will check out some of the links posted here as well. I also noticed you were able to put up the link to the James Akin article on invincible and *vincible *ignorance. Will anyone read it through with care? I hope so. But I believe people prefer the simplistic approach. It is more “inclusive” plus we do not wish to hurt anybody’s sensibilities or point it out to them that their loved ones might not make it to heaven.
Too bad, it also results in certain complacency, the need to convert has lost its urgent appeal, and why not, it is easier to work out a scheme of compromise than to fight for truth. For sure your relationship with the southern Baptist relative may be strained to say the least, but if it means he will get the grace to convert in his heart in the last moments of his life, he would have gained eternal bliss. How does peace for a short time compare with peace for eternity? But we are living in the age of general and religious pluralism and those of us who try to bring some reality in this muddled state of affairs are branded divisive, arrogant and pushy. Jesus never promised his true followers peace among their families or anywhere else. To follow the Gospel in truth requires sacrifice and division, it does not come with a conciliatory approach. I prefer civilized conduct and loathe pointless nasty behavior, (actually all nasty behavior is pointless). But on the other hand, the charitable ones tend to take charity to the extreme and, perhaps without meaning to, end up watering down the faith to please as many as they possibly can. Oh my, how distraught some of them will be when they learn they made a mistake and did not bring people into the fold they had the responsibility for!
Mortal sin is not understood, neither is invincible and vincible ignorance. Yup, there are still Bushmen, but a Southern Baptist or Billy Graham; along with his followers are no more Bushmen than you or I.
PS. Have you figured out what are these images on the bottom left corner of the posts? Some people have it, others do not.
The message center is not operating properly, so I did not see any point in sending you a private message. Lately it does not warn us of new mail. Thanks for the link on the other thread, it looks interesting. I will check out some of the links posted here as well. I also noticed you were able to put up the link to the James Akin article on invincible and *vincible *ignorance. Will anyone read it through with care? I hope so. But I believe people prefer the simplistic approach. It is more “inclusive” plus we do not wish to hurt anybody’s sensibilities or point it out to them that their loved ones might not make it to heaven.
Too bad, it also results in certain complacency, the need to convert has lost its urgent appeal, and why not, it is easier to work out a scheme of compromise than to fight for truth. For sure your relationship with the southern Baptist relative may be strained to say the least, but if it means he will get the grace to convert in his heart in the last moments of his life, he would have gained eternal bliss. How does peace for a short time compare with peace for eternity? But we are living in the age of general and religious pluralism and those of us who try to bring some reality in this muddled state of affairs are branded divisive, arrogant and pushy. Jesus never promised his true followers peace among their families or anywhere else. To follow the Gospel in truth requires sacrifice and division, it does not come with a conciliatory approach. I prefer civilized conduct and loathe pointless nasty behavior, (actually all nasty behavior is pointless). But on the other hand, the charitable ones tend to take charity to the extreme and, perhaps without meaning to, end up watering down the faith to please as many as they possibly can. Oh my, how distraught some of them will be when they learn they made a mistake and did not bring people into the fold they had the responsibility for!
Mortal sin is not understood, neither is invincible and vincible ignorance. Yup, there are still Bushmen, but a Southern Baptist or Billy Graham; along with his followers are no more Bushmen than you or I.
PS. Have you figured out what are these images on the bottom left corner of the posts? Some people have it, others do not.
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