S
simpleas
Guest
In all my years as a catholic sitting in the pews at mass and other events I have never heard such a statement.
(apart from choose life, referring to abortion…)
Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?
- Status
(apart from choose life, referring to abortion…)
A
Amandil
Guest
For the reprobate in hell there is no love, no hope. It’s punishments an torments are not remedial and serve no purpose.Is it possible for God to eventually relent? Is there some type of stain on these souls that God cannot cleanse or change? Sure, the damned are in Hell due to their own free-will, but that does not mean that they would not repent under the right conditions.
LOVE!
Hell is the fulfillment and the logical conclusion of a life lived for sin and self-will. The reprobate have no will or identity apart from the particular sin or sins which they loved.
And if no amount of recognition for God’s love for them change them and compel them to repent in this life, neither will they repent in the next once their wills are set for eternity.
K
KindredSoul
Guest
I know. It’s not Catholic dogma that God hates. I’m not saying that those who are arguing that He does are definitely wrong (although I personally disagree with them, strongly) but it is not something that you have to believe in order to be a Catholic. As you’ve no doubt seen here, there are multiple ways of looking at the passages in scripture that suggests God hates anyone (just as those who argue that God does hate have to find alternate ways to look at the scriptures which say God loves all and that nothing He hates will continue to exist).In all my years as a catholic sitting in the pews at mass and other events I have never heard such a statement.
Therefore Catholics are by no means obligated to believe that God hates. It seems that some worry that a Catholic who thinks God loves everyone is guilty of the sin of presumption. However, the truth is that as long as we take Hell seriously, realize that it is eternal, and do NOT presume that God is a Cosmic pushover just because He loves us, then we are respecting His Justice, we are not committing the sin of presumption, and we are certainly within the bounds of orthodox Catholicism. Presumption has nothing to do with believing God hates no one, it has to do with thinking that you, or anyone else, is “so special” that God could “never allow ME to go to hell.” Thinking that God loves everyone, as long as you know that love does not mean everyone is guaranteed to go to Heaven, is not the same as presumption.
Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
A
Amandil
Guest
For the reprobate in hell there is no love, no hope. It’s punishments an torments are not remedial and serve no purpose.Is it possible for God to eventually relent? Is there some type of stain on these souls that God cannot cleanse or change? Sure, the damned are in Hell due to their own free-will, but that does not mean that they would not repent under the right conditions.
LOVE!
Hell is the fulfillment and the logical conclusion of a life lived for sin and self-will. The reprobate have no will or identity apart from the particular sin or sins which they loved.
And if no amount of recognition for God’s love for them change them and compel them to repent in this life, neither will they repent in the next once their wills are set for eternity.
G
glendab
Guest
Hello Thorns.
Glenda
Presumption runs deeper. It says “Its only a venial sin. God will forgive it as soon as I ask. Its okay. Everyone does it. It isn’t that big a deal. Not like I’m robbing banks or something.” Etc. etc. etc. The real killer is “I’ll go to Mass tomorrow and as soon as the Kyrie is said, I’m good to go.” Missing in this picture is genuine sorrow over ones sins. Notable is excuses and justifications and no real remorse. They thought about it once, it was a sin and no worry, God forgave it already just as soon as they asked because it is only venial. On with the day. It gets worse.
Glenda
O
opusAquinas
Guest
God will never relent on the eternal punishment.
God’s justice has to be satisfied. This is what is meant by those God hate’s - they are vessels of God’s justice.
Lots of people sin left and right and run to the confessional. I think some are assuming there are many Catholics like this.
There is a hierarchy in heaven and hell.
I think there may be cases of some Catholics running around doing really evil things even conjuring demons for favors but they remain close to the sacraments so they don’t go to hell. Now God knows this… but why???
God’s justice has to be satisfied. This is what is meant by those God hate’s - they are vessels of God’s justice.
Lots of people sin left and right and run to the confessional. I think some are assuming there are many Catholics like this.
There is a hierarchy in heaven and hell.
I think there may be cases of some Catholics running around doing really evil things even conjuring demons for favors but they remain close to the sacraments so they don’t go to hell. Now God knows this… but why???
A
arte
Guest
G
glendab
Guest
Hello Arte.
A
Amandil
Guest
This is heretical. Jesus certainly taught hell, and he certainly taught that “many” will wind up there.
You’re conflating so many things here its noting but incoherent nonsense. Even if I grant the above statement, the angels were evicted AFTER their sin.
In any case you’re begging the question. Hardly logical.
Hell is not a “system”, systems are created for a purpose. Purposes are directly ordered to good ends. Hell is neither good nor does it have a purpose. Purgatory has a purpose, to conform souls with sanctifying grace into souls prepared for heaven.
So, again, your statement is illogical.
You clearly have a grave misunderstanding as to what purgatory is.
And you have proof for this from the Catechism?
Neither do you understand precisely what sin is.
If you are a parent, then you ought to know the answer to this. But seeing that you seem to lack the ability to think things through fully, perhaps I overestimate your ability to perceive.
Let me put it to you this way: If you knew that one of your children, say at the age of 13, came to you and said, “You’re no longer my father, you’re dead to me, and I never want to see you again,” would you still conceive and give birth to them?
Yet you are exercising that will right now.
This is simply dumb.
Which again demonstrates a real and gross underestimation of sin. No saint would ever say such a thing.
“Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom”. You clearly do not fear the God of the universe enough. Your “wisdom” is foolishness. You clearly do not understand even what you think you know.
Purgatory does not exist for sinners!
Man, his post is chock full of heretical beliefs.
V
Vico
Guest
A
Aloysium
Guest
Re: Judaism - I don’t see it as “our parent religion”. It is a belief in the presence of the Word in history which leaves out its purpose and culmination. There is no magisterium in Judaism; they value discussion and the joke is that putting two Jews together to argue a point, you will come up with three opinions. Of many Jewish friends, I believe most hope for an after-life, but I would say the general view is that this is it. Except for a handful, they are predominantly Ashkenazi, having lost most of their families in the holocaust; I have never heard anyone speak of meeting Hitler in heaven.
BTW: Satan is real regardless of how your logic, apparently informed by the nonsense of modern secular society, distorts scripture.
O
OneSheep
Guest
I will respond to this post, but I will not in the future until you learn to be more courteous. If you do not understand my statements, say so. In the mean time, my statements are obviously coherent and sensical to me, and I request that you respect my view. I forgive your discourtesy, you do not know what you are doing. Would you talk like this to your mother? To a priest?
In the mean time, if I had stated that I was the Pope, would you believe me? Probably not. So, when Jesus said he was the Son of God, the people thought he was full of baloney (er… kosher baloney
) and did not “know” he was the son of God. They heard it, but they did not believe it, so they certainly did not “know” it.I am telling you that to say someone else’s opinions on the forum are “absurd” “nonsense” “lacking order or value” or what have you is discourteous. I am saying this. Do you know it is discourteous? No, you disagree. You do not know. You have heard, but you do not know. Such is the same with the crowd who hung Jesus, they heard the words, but they did believe Him, they did not know what they were doing. They did not know of His humanity, let alone His divinity. And, by the way, God excused them, remember? And He explained why, “because they do not know what they are doing”.
I am going to say something here not to you specifically, but to all readers. Our national media, especially talk radio, has elevated public discourtesy to new levels. If you, the reader, resent something a person has done or said, forgive him or her. If you would like to say something in response to the person, forgive first. This is our calling. Do not judge, instead try understand where people are coming from and what there intent is. There is always good intent. Talk radio in the national media is not Christ-centered. There is very little evidence of forgiveness in the dialog.
End of sermon. God Bless.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Amandil, I am putting this in because I had written up the response earlier, and I could not get to the net until now. If you cannot respond as if you are responding to someone you respect, please do not respond. And please remember, God is within all of us, even people who are not those you respect.
Please provide an example of “dishonest ignorance” and we can investigate its "dishonesty”.
Amandil:
The question is, “Why is he avoiding the doctor?” Then we can investigate the dishonesty aspect a bit futher, I think.
The question is, “why is he not considering the feelings and needs of his coworkers and employer?”
A very wise priest once told me, “It is not to condemn or condone, but understand.” Let’s understand why people do what they do. Jesus said “do not judge”. However, IMO judgment is a triggered response, it comes from the gut. The best I can do is to realize I have condemned, my gut reacted and I have judged, and then I need to take the steps to understand and forgive.
Originally Posted by OneSheep
Did the crowd who hung Jesus know that what they were doing was sinful?
In addition, I would still like you to answer the question, did the crowd who hung Jesus know what they were doing was sinful? So far, it sounds like your answer is “yes”. If “yes” is the answer, what did Jesus mean when He said “for they do not know what they are doing”?
Please note, I find nothing you are saying “absurd”. I am finding your comments understandable in light of your way of looking at things, which is a very normal, natural way of looking at things. So, here is my request. Before you respond, try to understand and forgive me first, if you have not done so.
Please provide an example of “dishonest ignorance” and we can investigate its "dishonesty”.
So, before calling this “dishonest”, let us determine why the person is avoiding going to the doctor. If the person is fearful, they can be honestly fearful. The person is afraid of the truth. If the person wants to die, and is not fearful, then he honestly wants to die. You must be using a different definition of “honesty”?
The question is, “Why is he avoiding the doctor?” Then we can investigate the dishonesty aspect a bit futher, I think.
Same applies here. A person avoids the board because he fears an unpleasant duty. He is being honest with himself, and if someone asks him and he responds with this, he remains accountable. Do we let him continue such avoidance? Of course not. He complies, or he is fired. “Work” is a practical, human institution.
The question is, “why is he not considering the feelings and needs of his coworkers and employer?”
Back to the question. “Why do people avoid answering their phone when they know that they owe money?”
Back to the question: “Why would a person do this?”
A very wise priest once told me, “It is not to condemn or condone, but understand.” Let’s understand why people do what they do. Jesus said “do not judge”. However, IMO judgment is a triggered response, it comes from the gut. The best I can do is to realize I have condemned, my gut reacted and I have judged, and then I need to take the steps to understand and forgive.
Originally Posted by OneSheep
Did the crowd who hung Jesus know that what they were doing was sinful?
So, the question here is “why did they say that?” Did they say it because they thought they were doing something wrong, and wanted the punishment for the wrong to be meted out on them and their children? Or, instead, did they think that what they were doing was right, and saw what they were doing was just, and that His blood was of no consequence, that the “goodness” to be found was in their serving of “justice”? Or, is there another reason why they said that?
In addition, I would still like you to answer the question, did the crowd who hung Jesus know what they were doing was sinful? So far, it sounds like your answer is “yes”. If “yes” is the answer, what did Jesus mean when He said “for they do not know what they are doing”?
Please note, I find nothing you are saying “absurd”. I am finding your comments understandable in light of your way of looking at things, which is a very normal, natural way of looking at things. So, here is my request. Before you respond, try to understand and forgive me first, if you have not done so.
A
Amandil
Guest
You appear to have this need to evade the issue by making this about me instead of the subject matter.I will respond to this post, but I will not in the future until you learn to be more courteous. If you do not understand my statements, say so. In the mean time, my statements are obviously coherent and sensical to me, and I request that you respect my view. I forgive your discourtesy, you do not know what you are doing. Would you talk like this to your mother? To a priest?
In the mean time, if I had stated that I was the Pope, would you believe me? Probably not. So, when Jesus said he was the Son of God, the people thought he was full of baloney (er… kosher baloney
I am telling you that to say someone else’s opinions on the forum are “absurd” “nonsense” “lacking order or value” or what have you is discourteous. I am saying this. Do you know it is discourteous? No, you disagree. You do not know. You have heard, but you do not know. Such is the same with the crowd who hung Jesus, they heard the words, but they did believe Him, they did not know what they were doing. They did not know of His humanity, let alone His divinity. And, by the way, God excused them, remember? And He explained why, “because they do not know what they are doing”.
I am going to say something here not to you specifically, but to all readers. Our national media, especially talk radio, has elevated public discourtesy to new levels. If you, the reader, resent something a person has done or said, forgive him or her. If you would like to say something in response to the person, forgive first. This is our calling. Do not judge, instead try understand where people are coming from and what there intent is. There is always good intent. Talk radio in the national media is not Christ-centered. There is very little evidence of forgiveness in the dialog.
End of sermon. God Bless.
This is a debate forum. The criticisms I laid against your opinions, and that’s all they are and they have hardly any if no identity with Catholic Tradition and are at the least heterodox if not outright heretical, are consistent with that of debate.
This has nothing to do with your perceived feeling of “discourtesy” or your lamentation of the level of “discourse” do to “national talk radio”. These are simply Red Herrings you are inventing because you think they appear to bolster your ideas.
On top of that you are contradicted by the fact that my language is no different than that of other Apologists on CA when someone, either protestant, atheist, or Catholic, claims that the Church teaches things which it does not. They use the same terms and criticisms the same way I do.
You are not my mother, nor are you a priest. You are a lay person claiming that your opinions are somehow authoritative. Your use of the word “sermon” is interesting in itself, as if you are trying to assert an authority of your own which you obviously do not have while seemingly hiding behind a false humility.
C
chimo
Guest
It would seem to be that the person who wants Hell does not change. It is not God who needs to relent but the person is not willing to relent at all. Perhaps the soul is so sick that it cannot recover. For instance God can give His Grace to anyone but let us say when God will give His Grace to a certain soul this soul rejects it very violently. Now will God give this grace again to this soul? How can He if the soul does not want it. Perhaps the souls who are like this are in the same category of those who are in Hell. They just hate more when Grace is given for them. I was taught by a Roman Catholic priest that when your soul leaves the body at death your will which is part of your soul becomes naturally fixed. In this way the soul will not be inclined to sin once the Graces of God were accepted beforehand. However if you spurn the Grace of God in this life and your will becomes naturally fixed there is no way the soul will ever get better. What is God going to do? Why does a soul reject Grace? There has to be the enormous gravity of living a very sinful life rejecting all forms of Grace even by hating it more if one is touched by it. There has to be a very longing to hatred within a person to do such an act. I believe this occurs in the devil. There is a great hatred in the devil towards God and to us because there is a great hatred within.Is it possible for God to eventually relent? Is there some type of stain on these souls that God cannot cleanse or change? Sure, the damned are in Hell due to their own free-will, but that does not mean that they would not repent under the right conditions.
LOVE!
A
Amandil
Guest
Aside from the obvious ad-hominum you have now adopted in order to evade the issue at hand, you are yourself trying to have your cake and the same time eat of it.
For one you have it backwards. If I did not respect you or love you ontologically, I wouldn’t bother correcting your false opinions, instead I’d leave you to your own devices and falsehoods.
The corollary to that though is that I would be held responsible before God by allowing you to remain ignorant in your falsehoods. “Blessed is he who does not condemn himself by what he approves”(Rom 14:22). So “respect” necessarily demands that I correct you, your obstinacy withstanding.
Respect necessarily follows from a level of frankness and honesty, not positing opinions and specious arguments as fact. So I can easily make the same argument that you have not been respectful to me by the fact that you continually use these Red Herring arguments.
(sigh…)
- You’re actually using an emotive argument as an excuse for willful ignorance? Thank God Paul didn’t allow fear to dictate whether or not he preached the Gospel(1 Cor 9:16).
- So if a person shoots a gun into a dark room because he is afraid of what may be in there and kills someone that means he’s not culpable for their deaths?
If he is avoiding the doctor because he wants to remain ignorant to his physical condition, when he has a responsibility not only to himself but to his family and to God to do his utmost to take care of his health, then his ignorance is willful and dishonest and therefore sinful.
And my answer also applies here. The “feelings” of his coworkers and employer are irrelevant. He has a moral obligation to do his job, no matter how undesirable or disagreeable he finds it(unless of course what he is asked to do is in fact immoral, but that is not the issue here). This moral obligation is not only imperative due to his employer but to those who depend upon his employment for their support.
In any case, its dishonest. He knows what he ought to do, but chooses to do otherwise.
A
Amandil
Guest
Now you’re just editorializing.Back to the question. “Why do people avoid answering their phone when they know that they owe money?”
Back to the question: “Why would a person do this?”
A very wise priest once told me, “It is not to condemn or condone, but understand.” Let’s understand why people do what they do. Jesus said “do not judge”. However, IMO judgment is a triggered response, it comes from the gut. The best I can do is to realize I have condemned, my gut reacted and I have judged, and then I need to take the steps to understand and forgive.
The statement was an oath formula(Josh 2:17-19). They were invoking a curse upon themselves staking their lives on their decision. Their guilt came to fruition with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. They obviously didn’t take seriously the fact that they were crucifying a man whom they knew to be a holy man, innocent of any crimes, whom they witnessed teach and perform miracles.
Jesus spoke of the sin of rash oaths(Matt 5:33).
The collaboration of Jewish and Roman authorities was part of the divine plan of salvation, regardless God’s foreknowledge of their sin does not mitigate their culpability. The fact that Jesus asks that they be forgiven is proof that what they are doing is in fact sinful. Their ignorance may or may not mitigate the level of their culpability. Even if I granted your claim that they did not “know” that they were committing Deicide, they knew that they were condemning an innocent man to death, which is a despicable and detestable sin in itself.
S
Seraphim73
Guest
That’s not true. St Gregory of Nyssa advocated the possibility of universal salvation. So did St Isaac the Syrian.
A
Amandil
Guest
And you have a citation for this?
S
Seraphim73
Guest
“Be a herald of God’s goodness, for God rules over you, unworthy though you are. Although your debt to Him is so very great, He is not seen exacting payment from you; and from the small works you do, He bestows great rewards upon you. Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright, His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. ‘He is good’, He says, ‘to the evil and to the impious.’ How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? ‘Friend, I do thee no wrong: I choose to give unto this last even as unto thee. Or is thine eye evil because I am good?’ How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over all his wealth? None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it, and thus bore witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God’s justice, for while we are sinners Christ died for us! But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change.”
- St Isaac the Syrian
- Status