Is it Rational to Believe God Exists?

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Which bible translation are you using?

My bible, approved by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops reads that passage as:

"I form the light, and create the darkness,

I make weal and create woe;

I, the LORD, do all these things."

Yes, woe is evil for those who experience it, but sometimes woe is asked for and deserved.
Catholic Douay Rheims says evil.
The Catholic Douay Rheims version is a translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into English made by members of the English College, Douai, in the service of the Catholic Church. It was written to uphold Catholic tradition against the Proltestant Reformation.
 
If there are sound moral principles for arriving at professional codes of conduct there are, likewise, sound moral principles for arriving at personal moral codes.
It is difficult to agree to this because there is disagreement among philosophers on many moral issues, such as for example the use of torture to extract confessions. Some people will even deny that what the politicians call enhanced interrogation techniques are torture.
 
Maybe you want psychiatrists to lock people in a mental institution and force drugs down their throats purely whose lifestyle you don’t like, but thankfully medical professionals have far higher standards.
Not sure that the medical profession does have the high standards as you claim. I know a case of someone who was not bad at all, until they locked him in a medical facility that treats people with dementia. He was given a whole handful of various pills several times a day and went down from there.
 
It would be highly unethical for a psychiatrist to treat morals she doesn’t like as if it were an illness.
This statement requires some disambiguation.

On the face of it, you are claiming it would be immoral for a psychiatrist to treat what s/he believes are the malformed moral ideas of others as illnesses.

It may be, in fact “moral” for the psychiatrist to do just that. If an immoral patient sincerely believes that it is morally “right” to kill all prostitutes, the psychiatrist rightfully should treat this ostensibly “moral” belief as an illness.

The reason your statement is so confused is because the meaning of “morals” in “to treat morals” simply means the extant moral beliefs of patients. These beliefs are not necessarily correct as moral beliefs, so the psychiatrist has no compelling prima facie reason to treat them as legitimate merely because the patient believes them to be “moral” beliefs.

The psychiatrist has no ethical warrant for condoning or commending the beliefs as “moral” beliefs merely because the patient has them.

The other error you make is in assuming that the psychiatrist’s “moral” beliefs are not legitimately “moral” beliefs but merely on par with those of the patient.

Your most mistaken assumption is that there is no possible means by which to distinguish correct moral beliefs from errant ones. Thus you assume moral relativism is the de facto moral truth.

Moral philosophers may disagree somewhat on the content of what constitutes moral thinking, but the one point that is almost universally agreed upon is that moral relativism is logically incoherent. Yet, that is the ground of your position.

Why should anything be “highly unethical” for a psychiatrist if ethical simply reduces to what any individual thinks, as a matter of fact, what is right or wrong for them. Your position, allows that a psychiatrist who thinks it “acceptable” to treat morals they don’t like as illnesses has just as much warrant for doing so as your psychiatrist who believes otherwise, since “morals” including his own are merely individual and subjective in nature.

The disambiguation that is required is with regard to your use of “morals” in “treat morals she doesn’t like.” What you mean here is the set of moral beliefs currently held by the patient. Unfortunately, for you, at least, “moral” has another meaning - what is objectively good or bad for moral agents. Whether some, or even all, moral agents know or acknowledge such principles is irrelevant as to whether such principles exist.

Tacitly, you admit this, by claiming it is “highly unethical” for a psychiatrist to act in a certain way. Meaning all psychiatrists ought to be bound by such ethical principles as a matter of objective reality, whether they agree or not.
 
Which bible translation are you using?.
Webster’s Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
American King James Version
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Jubilee Bible 2000
I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.
King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
 
Moral philosophers may disagree somewhat on the content of what constitutes moral thinking, but the one point that is almost universally agreed upon is that moral relativism is logically incoherent.
Is waterboarding morally right or wrong?
 
Is waterboarding morally right or wrong?
The fact that you ask that question means there exists some objective moral criteria that can be applied to determine whether it is morally right or wrong and under what conditions it is either.

If there was no objective morality, the question would be nonsensical.

Are you saying it is nonsensical or are you claiming a moral determination can be made?

Just because there are some situations under which waterboarding might be permitted does not mean it is simply “right.”

The Catholic position is that moral questions have three dimensions.
  1. The act itself
  2. The motives of the agent
  3. The circumstances under which the act is done.
Some acts are inherently evil and do not permit any circumstances under which they might be allowed. This somewhat depends on phrasing.

Killing another person is a wrong act, but may be permitted if the circumstances (self-defense, child runs across a busy highway) mean the motives of the person were not malicious or intentional.

Rephrasing killing as “murder” disallows circumstances and motives because “murder” means the intentional killing of a person with malicious intent.

There are, conceivably, circumstances under which waterboarding might be permitted, but not, for example, to find out from your elderly grandmother where she hid the family jewels.
 
I don’t know what point you’re trying to make here, and you sound very angry using words like “spew forth”.

You didn’t answer my question. If you’re correct and there is always one and one only rational answer, then please say which of the following is the only rational choice, and why the others must therefore ultimately be irrational: consequentialism, deontology, hedonism, natural law, pragmatism, stoicism.
The wise men and the elephant…

Just as the wise men all have legitimate points of view about the elephant does not entail they have the complete picture, but they are correct about some aspect or perspective on the elephant. The tail does look like a rope, the legs are like tree trunks, etc. etc.

Consequentialism, deontology, hedonism, pragmatism, natural law, stoicism, etc. may all present some facet of morality without giving the whole picture.

That does not mean they are all wrong and morality is completely different. Nor does it mean they are all wrong and morality simply doesn’t exist.

The elephant is a real beast, just difficult to characterize if you only have one perspective on it. Similarly, morality is a “real beast” although difficult to characterize if you want to take a singular perspective (hedonism, utility, law, detachment, etc.) on it. These all, in fact, may be facets of morality without telling the whole story.

Doesn’t mean morality doesn’t exist nor that it cannot properly be characterized or understood with some effort.

Ain’t no mountain high enough…
 
Catholic Douay Rheims says evil.
The Catholic Douay Rheims version is a translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into English made by members of the English College, Douai, in the service of the Catholic Church. It was written to uphold Catholic tradition against the Proltestant Reformation.
Evil can be interpreted in different ways. I don’t think the older version of the Catholic bible means to say that God is not different from Satan as a creator of evil. Woe is the suffering of evil in the effects of sin. As when you get Aids from sodomy or drug abuse. Yes, in that sense, because you have violated God’s good will, God creates in you these evil effects. Or when during the time of Moses the Egyptians refused to let the Jews leave, they had to suffer the evil effects of disobeying God’s will.

But I don’t think that the bible says God makes you do evil things. Is that how you are interpreting that passage? Do you think that passage is saying God alone is the creator of evil in men, or the evil effects that naturally follow human sins?
 
Is good and bad relative to which philosopher you are talking to, or is there some objective standard which everyone agrees on to determine which is good and which is bad?
You tell me if the philosophy of Jesus and the philosophy of Hitler have a moral equivalence.

You ask me who am I to say one philosophy is good and the other is bad? :confused:

Everyone has an interior standard, some highly subjective and some highly objective.

The thing is we need to overcome the subjective monster of relativism.

The Catholic Church has something comparable to a scientific peer review committee.

When a Catholic takes a position on moral philosophy, he submits his position to the approval of the Catechism, the official teaching instrument of the Church.
 
You tell me if the philosophy of Jesus and the philosophy of Hitler have a moral equivalence.

You ask me who am I to say one philosophy is good and the other is bad? :confused:

Everyone has an interior standard, some highly subjective and some highly objective.

The thing is we need to overcome the subjective monster of relativism.

The Catholic Church has something comparable to a scientific peer review committee.

When a Catholic takes a position on moral philosophy, he submits his position to the approval of the Catechism, the official teaching instrument of the Church.
True in most cases, but not all. For example, is waterboarding right or wrong or does it depend on the circumstances?
 
There are, conceivably, circumstances under which waterboarding might be permitted, but not, for example, to find out from your elderly grandmother where she hid the family jewels.
So the rightness or wrongness of waterboarding is relative and depends on the circumstances?
 
True in most cases, but not all. For example, is waterboarding right or wrong or does it depend on the circumstances?
If it is done for the pleasure of watching someone suffer, it is always wrong.

If it is done to save lives, it is right.

Waterboarding does not kill.

It extracts a truth otherwise difficult to extract, as the dentist extracts a tooth otherwise bound to kill. 😉
 
Hello Tom.
Catholic Douay Rheims says evil.
The Catholic Douay Rheims version is a translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into English made by members of the English College, Douai, in the service of the Catholic Church. It was written to uphold Catholic tradition against the Proltestant Reformation.
Nice of you to note this verse. Here is what the Haydock Biblical Commentary has to say on the subject: 7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I, the Lord, that do all these things. Ver. 7. Create evil, &c. The evils of afflictions and punishments, but not the evil of sin. (Challoner) — I afflict and comfort my people. (Boldness mine)

haydock1859.tripod.com/id1265.html

Here is the Latin text for comparison: formans lucem et creans tenebras faciens pacem et creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec

latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=0&b=27&c=45

I found verse 16 interestingly meaningful to this particular aspect of this thread: 16 They are all confounded and ashamed: the forgers of errors are gone together into confusion.

So be careful how much and what kinds of “evil” you attribute to God.

Glenda
 

Medical ethics require that psychiatrists must not play God by taking a moral stance. If someone isn’t distressed by being gay then there’s no ethical reason to label it as a medical disorder or to intervene.
I take it you want to walk back the claim that “experiment is judge, jury and executioner”? As in the case with homosexuality and the DSM, “professional ethics” (or social pressure) appears to have won the day…
 
Hello Tom.

Nice of you to note this verse. Here is what the Haydock Biblical Commentary has to say on the subject: 7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I, the Lord, that do all these things. Ver. 7. Create evil, &c. The evils of afflictions and punishments, but not the evil of sin. (Challoner) — I afflict and comfort my people. (Boldness mine)

haydock1859.tripod.com/id1265.html

Here is the Latin text for comparison: formans lucem et creans tenebras faciens pacem et creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec

latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=0&b=27&c=45

I found verse 16 interestingly meaningful to this particular aspect of this thread: 16 They are all confounded and ashamed: the forgers of errors are gone together into confusion.

So be careful how much and what kinds of “evil” you attribute to God.

Glenda
Confusing. Have you now changed your mind and say that God does create the evils of afflictions and punishments? Or not?
How do you or other latin scholars translate:
creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec?
 
If it is done for the pleasure of watching someone suffer, it is always wrong.

If it is done to save lives, it is right.

Waterboarding does not kill.

It extracts a truth otherwise difficult to extract, as the dentist extracts a tooth otherwise bound to kill. 😉
So it is a question of the end justifying the means? If you waterboard for the good end of saving lives, it is right. If you waterboard for a bad end, it is wrong?BTW, I thought that waterboarding could kill in some cases?
 
Some acts are inherently evil and do not permit any circumstances under which they might be allowed…
Take for example the case of 9/11 where a plane is about to hit a building and kill 2000 people. Would it be right to shoot down the plane in order to save 2000 people, or would it be inherently evil to kill 60 innocent people on the plane by shooting it down. Does the good end of saving the lives of 2000 people justify the evil means of killing 60 people by shooting down a plane hijacked by terrorists?
Also see:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12364966#post12364966
 
Take for example the case of 9/11 where a plane is about to hit a building and kill 2000 people. Would it be right to shoot down the plane in order to save 2000 people, or would it be inherently evil to kill 60 innocent people on the plane by shooting it down. Does the good end of saving the lives of 2000 people justify the evil means of killing 60 people by shooting down a plane hijacked by terrorists?
Also see:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12364966#post12364966
There is a moral axiom that goes: When confronted with two inevitable evils, choose the lesser evil.

The operative word is “inevitable.”

This is not the same as saying the ends justifies the means. If the choice of action is not regarding two inevitable evils, the end does not justify the means.

So if you choose (but do not inevitably have to choose) to steal a great deal of money (an evil act) needed to avoid bankruptcy and stay solvent (a perceived good), the end would not justify the means.

If you choose to bring down a plane with 60 people to save 2,000, you inevitably have to choose one or the other. If you chose otherwise, all 2060 people would perish.
 
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