Is it Right for the Catholic Church to fund groups that attack the American Way of Life?

[xfaust42x]

And thank God for all the veterans who fought for YOUR right to insult them!

Speaking as someone who was lucky enough to be a loser in the last draft this country ever had and watch all the brave “college boys” smoke dope and get deferments because daddy had pull, then hide behind a bible everytime their country needs defending, I find what you say total hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy? What is the US millitary currently defending? That would be nothing. Nothing except dangerous and reckless millitary spending, and a criminal war. but that would be another thread.

 

[Lujack]

Oh yeah! I was in the last draft this wonderful country had. Is that nice. Every one of us was FORCED BY LAW to defend this wonderful country just so years later a bunch of christians could hand it over to an invading army of Mexicans.

Okay, that’s great. I respect your service tremendously. Allow me to ask a hypothetical of you, though:

What if you hadn’t been drafted? What if you, like me, were born to late to have been drafted? Are you any less of an American for that?

Isn’t that wonderful. That’s how much this country appreciates what its veterans have done.

Don’t tell me that I don’t respect veterans, or that I don’t understand what they’ve done for this country, just because I support immigration reform.

 

[Bullfighter]

Bull, while I agree that those who transgress our immigration laws should have consequences, I believe you have taken the wrong approach to this discussion. Please read the document I posted above from the USCCB regarding social justice. It is important as Catholics to conform our opinions to the teaching of the Church. I understand your frustration with the current system and those who violate the rule of law, but the anger in your responses seems to go a bit beyond this. There is enough merit in the argument to avoid personal attacks and angry rants about specific ethnic groups. Charity above all things, because there is no truth outside of love.

I downloaded it and will read it later. Thank you.

Did you know that the Mexican Army has violated our sovereignty over 42 times last year protecting drug shipments? We would want anything to happen to them while they immigrate their drugs here now would we!

You must remember the separation of church and state. The Catholic Church does not dictate who the US fights and who the US should allow into this country.

By the way, what is the Vatican’s policy on immigrating there?

 

[Bullfighter]

Okay, that’s great. I respect your service tremendously. Allow me to ask a hypothetical of you, though:

What if you hadn’t been drafted? What if you, like me, were born to late to have been drafted? Are you any less of an American for that?

Don’t tell me that I don’t respect veterans, or that I don’t understand what they’ve done for this country, just because I support immigration reform.

Ever American has a duty to defend this country from invasion. By helping them with propaganda, you help them invade. Anyone who just sits back and makes excuses for not defending his country betrays every veteran who fought all those years.

Soldiers fighting in Iraq today are defending our borders without even being here. But I will predict that this country will stab them in the back and forget them just like they did with every generation of soldiers before them. One the war is over for the country, it just begins for the veteran.

I must defend this country not for what future generations will do but for what past generations did. That is why I have so much contempt for Mexicans who never fought as allies in any of the wars of the 20th century. They really have no excuse either.

 

[PaulinVA]

I am confused. What does this mean? You agree that those who would come here should do so legally, but then seem to contradict this with the statement, “absolutely no moral right to restrict the next wave of immigrants” comment. Regardless of the fact that this has no basis in the infallible teaching of the Church over morality or social justice, how do you reconcile these two statements? In other words, what should the consequences be for those who disregard the law if you believe it is immoral to have a law in the first place?

It is very simple. We have a right as a country to protect our borders and create an immigration policy. Those people that enter this country illegally should be dealt with according to the law.

We are ALL immigrants in the United States, unless you are a native American. That said, we can create and enforce an immigration policy, but we must not refuse entry to anyone or any group because of their nationality or skin color. the strength of this country is the recurring waves of immigration that revitalize us.

We must respect all people. Americans are no better than anyone else, although we have put together the best country in the world.

 

[catharina]

If their American, you feed them. If they are not, you show them the border.

I have no sympathy for a people who come from a country that would have been decent if they would have controlled themselves. No one forced them to overpopulate their countries. They did that grining from ear to ear. Now they want the US to pay the bill for their party. NO WAY!

Bullfighter, you continue to complain about this … i****n multiple posts, in multiple threads (many started by you).

Other posters continue to say to you: “Do you have any idea that you’re twisting the works of mercy that command us to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, etc., and NOT to check their paperwork first?” I hope you find peace.

 

[Redbandito]

I downloaded it and will read it later. Thank you.

Did you know that the Mexican Army has violated our sovereignty over 42 times last year protecting drug shipments? We would want anything to happen to them while they immigrate their drugs here now would we!

You must remember the separation of church and state. The Catholic Church does not dictate who the US fights and who the US should allow into this country.

By the way, what is the Vatican’s policy on immigrating there?

I am very well aware of the very problematic situation on our border. I live in Texas. It is not a good situation at all. I support your argument that the US has every right to enforce it’s borders. I just think we should be careful to balance that with a desire to aid those who do not have as much as we do. It is definitely a fine balance no doubt.

I am aware that this is not a Catholic theocrocy. Yet, that does not mean that Catholics are not bound to vote as Catholics. Our faith must form our conscience. Thus, while the Church cannot directly dictate policy in our country, we as Catholics must directly apply Church teaching to our political views.

I think you know the Vatican’s policies. It’s somewhat of a different situation there though, wouldn’t you say?

 

[Bullfighter]

It is very simple. We have a right as a country to protect our borders and create an immigration policy. Those people that enter this country illegally should be dealt with according to the law.

We are ALL immigrants in the United States, unless you are a native American. That said, we can create and enforce an immigration policy, but we must not refuse entry to anyone or any group because of their nationality or skin color. the strength of this country is the recurring waves of immigration that revitalize us.

We must respect all people. Americans are no better than anyone else, although we have put together the best country in the world.

We are NOT all immigrants. I am NOT an immigrant! I am an American.

 

[Bullfighter]

I am very well aware of the very problematic situation on our border. I live in Texas. It is not a good situation at all. I support your argument that the US has every right to enforce it’s borders. I just think we should be careful to balance that with a desire to aid those who do not have as much as we do. It is definitely a fine balance no doubt.

I am aware that this is not a Catholic theocrocy. Yet, that does not mean that Catholics are not bound to vote as Catholics. Our faith must form our conscience. Thus, while the Church cannot directly dictate policy in our country, we as Catholics must directly apply Church teaching to our political views.

I think you know the Vatican’s policies. It’s somewhat of a different situation there though, wouldn’t you say?

I am NOT against immigration. But I do believe Mexico has filled the quota for Mexicans into the next century. They are less than 2% of the world’s population and yet they demand to be almost exclusive in immigrating here.

I saw very few flags from around the world in those immigration rallies.

 

[Bullfighter]

Bullfighter, you continue to complain about this … i****n multiple posts, in multiple threads (many started by you).

Other posters continue to say to you: “Do you have any idea that you’re twisting the works of mercy that command us to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, etc., and NOT to check their paperwork first?” I hope you find peace.

If you truly wish to help the world, you should work to stop the flow of illegals and send the food to all parts of the world. The Mexicans I see are grossly overweight. I’m not kidding!

 

[Redbandito]

It is very simple. We have a right as a country to protect our borders and create an immigration policy. Those people that enter this country illegally should be dealt with according to the law…

Agreed

We are ALL immigrants in the United States, unless you are a native American. That said, we can create and enforce an immigration policy, but we must not refuse entry to anyone or any group because of their nationality or skin color. the strength of this country is the recurring waves of immigration that revitalize us…

For starters, your definition of “immigrant” in the first sentence has stripped the word of any meaning. An immigrant is someone who has migrated. I am not an immigrant. I was born and raised in Texas, as was my dad, as was my dad’s dad. I am the descendent of immigrants, but am not myself an immigrant.

Secondly, the xenophobia argument is a red herring. I have not heard ONE credible person for border enforcement make the argument we should deny immigration based on race, religion, etc.

It We must respect all people. Americans are no better than anyone else, although we have put together the best country in the world.

Who has said otherwise? Do you see people denying we should “respect all people” or asserting that we are “better than anyone else?” I have not seen this. I believe this is a red herring thrown out by those who support open borders to divert from the real issue, which is whether they are LEGAL or ILLEGAL. The issue has nothing to do with ethnicity.

Furthermore, those who come to this country should assimilate to the culture, learn the language, American history, the laws of the land, etc. This would aid both in their own success and the greater good of society.

 

[PaulinVA]

We are NOT all immigrants. I am NOT an immigrant! I am an American.

I am certainly trying to be charitable, but are you ignorant of American history? There are two groups from the founding of our country. Those that sailed from Europe and those that met them here. In general, if you do not trace your lineage to a native american tribe, you are either a former slave or an immigrant.

Just because you were born in America does not mean you are not of immigrant stock. Just because your family has been here for generations does not mean you are not of immigrant stock. Our families all immigrated to this country (or were dragged here in chains). To deny this is to deny your very own person history.

 

[Redbandito]

I am certainly trying to be charitable, but are you ignorant of American history? There are two groups from the founding of our country. Those that sailed from Europe and those that met them here. In general, if you do not trace your lineage to a native american tribe, you are either a former slave or an immigrant.

Just because you were born in America does not mean you are not of immigrant stock. Just because your family has been here for generations does not mean you are not of immigrant stock. Our families all immigrated to this country (or were dragged here in chains). To deny this is to deny your very own person history.

Sorry Paul, this is simply incorrect. The definition of immigrant is as follows: " one that immigrates: as a**:** a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence b**:** a plant or animal that becomes established in an area where it was previously unknown."
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immigrant

Since I was born in raised in the country where I permanently reside, I am not an immigrant. I am the descendent of immigrants.

Finally, you changed your argument. You did not originally say “immigrant stock.” You said immigrant. Please just be honest and let’s move on.

 

[catharina]

If you truly wish to help the world, you should work to stop the flow of illegals and send the food to all parts of the world. The Mexicans I see are grossly overweight. I’m not kidding!

If you don’t mind - or even if you do - I’ll follow the lessons of the Bible and the Church, not the lessons of bullfighter. I’ll feed the hungry, etc., without demanding to see their paperwork.

As for the “weight” of some of the poor in this country - or anywhere - there are plenty of nutritionists who would tell you that it’s easier to get fat on poverty wages. Cheap, filling foods often cost less, even if they’re bad for one’s health.

Or maybe you’re thinking:
“Ban the Mexicans
and then ban the obese.”

 

[Lujack]

Ever American has a duty to defend this country from invasion. By helping them with propaganda, you help them invade. Anyone who just sits back and makes excuses for not defending his country betrays every veteran who fought all those years.

I am not helping anyone invade. I’ll ask you a question: if the law changed tomorrow, and somehow, the legal immigration process was speeded up to a day, would the immigrants still be invaders?

Besides. I don’t think fighting to help immigrants is betraying veterans. It certainly isn’t a betrayal of my ancestors in the Irish Brigade.

Soldiers fighting in Iraq today are defending our borders without even being here. But I will predict that this country will stab them in the back and forget them just like they did with every generation of soldiers before them. One the war is over for the country, it just begins for the veteran.

That’s a misrepresentation of history. The soldiers of the Vietnam generation were not treated as well as they should have been, and that’s a national tragedy, and it seems like the government is letting down this batch of soldiers by not properly running the VA or the veteran’s hospitals, but soldiers of both World Wars, the Spanish-American War, and the Civil War received their respect and fair treatment.

I must defend this country not for what future generations will do but for what past generations did. That is why I have so much contempt for Mexicans who never fought as allies in any of the wars of the 20th century. They really have no excuse either.

They have no excuse for not fighting as allies in any of the wars of the 20th century? At the time of WWI, the country was poor and in a virtual state of anarchy. There was no Central Government to send troops over, and no reason for them to in the first place. They had no shipping going into England, mainly because they weren’t exporting anything, and really had no connection to any of the powers involved in the war (except maybe the French, but after Maximillian, they weren’t about to rush to France’s aid!).

Also, you’re misinformed about the Mexicans in WWII. The Mexicans joined the war on the Allied side in May of 1942, eventually sending 15,000 soldiers overseas, including an airborne battalion that fought in the Pacific. Also, at the request of the United States, the Mexican government filled a labor shortage in the Southwest by dispatching 300,000 government workers to work the fields and factories of New Mexico and Texas. All this at the same time that they were battling an astronomically high illiteracy rate, election fraud and election-day violence, trying to break up the large plantations assembled under corrupt prior governments, and dealing with a depression.

Learn some history before you declare your contempt for Mexico. Regardless, why is a Mexican born today responsible for any of that? You still refuse to answer that question.

At the time of WWII,

 

[PaulinVA]

Sorry Paul, this is simply incorrect. The definition of immigrant is as follows: " one that immigrates: as a**:** a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence b**:** a plant or animal that becomes established in an area where it was previously unknown."
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immigrant

Since I was born in raised in the country where I permanently reside, I am not an immigrant. I am the descendent of immigrants.

Finally, you changed your argument. You did not originally say “immigrant stock.” You said immigrant. Please just be honest and let’s move on.

We all come from immigrants. Doesn’t matter how many generations back. We should remember that when we talk about the people who are immigrating now.

Let’s be honest and move on to discuss the outrageous anti Hispanic sentiment on this thread.

 

[Dori1]

Maybe a more balanced approach would be appropriate, Bullfighter. My son serves in the USMC…no excuses here. But I am a physician in the state of Calfornia (a more border issue intensive state you would have difficulty finding). I know a very large number of illegal and legal immigrants from Asian and Central and South American countries. I can tell you that my patients from Mexico have been some of the most upright, hard working, honest, salt-of-the-earth people you will ever meet. Most did not have anything to do with any “party” of overpopulation…they are victims of corrupt government and are escaping to try to find a better life. They do it illegally because it is so difficult, and such a long process, to do it legally that many will have no hope of achieving any kind of life if they wait it out., even if they could come up with the enormous bankroll required.

I had a patient who came to the US while pregnant, not because she “wanted to make a citizen of her child” but because she developed Myasthenia Gravis during her pregnancy and couldn’t find any help (or an accurate diagnosis) where she lived. She scrapes by on a job at a fast food restaurant to support herself and her child. She has not applied for, or received, any state or federal benefits. She pays as she goes for what she gets, except for the “gratis” care offered to her by her physicians. I have provided care for the immigrant farm workers (who are often here illegally). They are performing backbreaking, thankless labor that no “American” would be caught dead doing for the dismal wages they make. They live in very poor conditions (I’ve seen them) and yet they rarely complain. Americans would rather live on welfare than bend their backs to the kind of work these people do to earn a few dollars. For many of the “illegal immigrants” welfare would be an affront to their pride. They would work themselves to death to avoid the need to live on “charity.” Indeed, they often give some of the extremely little they have to those poorer than themselves; and because they are often more innocent, they may even end up giving some of it to those richer than themselves since many “Americans” have no qualms about making a very lucrative living by begging.

I have no delusions that the people you so poisonously describe do not exist. There may even be some who hold visions of retaking California and other parts of the US. However, I believe they are the minority and those who call them “invaders” are victims of conspiracy delusions. Now that I have moved my career to the correctional setting, I clearly see that the gang problem is an issue. However, much of this behavior begins AFTER they enter the states and realize that no one will help them to find their way. I agree that those who commit crimes in this country, when they are here illegally, shoud be deported back to their own countries of origin. That action would decrease the overcrowding in our prisons. I have seen it happen, and witnessed the effect on a family of having the father sent back to Mexico with no hope of ever being able to return to the states. Even so, I believe it was right…and so did the wife in that setting. However, assumig that everyone who comes to our nation without having jumped through all of the impossible hoops first is destined to overthrow our way of life and to become the downfall of our country is shortsighted and ignorant.

At some point, compassion for the plight of the immigrant must weigh in.

I am Irish by ancestry, American citizen by birth; but I am only a traveller moving through this world. I am a Christian by rebirth through baptism and a citizen of heaven by the grace of God in Jesus. Keeping this in mind helps me to recognize that, however strongly I may feel about my country (and believe me I am a patriot), It is nothing compared to the greater communion of saints in the family of the Catholic Church. My family has defended this nation with its blood, at times. How much greater is the call to defend the helpless and the stranger; the widow and the orphan. How great is the call to extend a hand to the needy.

I hope you are able, one day, to see the error in your thought process. I don’t expect that to happen as a result of this missive, but I do hope that the venom in your soul releases you eventually to experience what you are missing by classifying an entire group of wonderful people, based upon the evil actions of a minority of their members.

In the love of Christ,

Dori

 

[taylorc]

Wow…This thread makes me glad I live on the Canadian Border even though I have SAD. I wonder why the situation here is so different.

 

[catharina]

Dori 1, Paul, Lujack, thanks for the great posts.

Bullfighter, I’ll add again what I’ve said to you previously.

The Catholic Church was virtually banned by national law for about 100 yrs in Mexico. In easing the path for Mexicans to become citizens in the USA, we are allowing them a freedom of worship that was NOT allowed in Mexico until the 1990s. That any remained Catholic while under such repression seems miraculous. (For example, the Catholic Church would not find it necessary to provide Mass in Spanish in the States if no one attended it.)

 

[Redbandito]

We all come from immigrants. Doesn’t matter how many generations back. We should remember that when we talk about the people who are immigrating now.

Let’s be honest and move on to discuss the outrageous anti Hispanic sentiment on this thread.

I’m not generally one to call people out but I get tired of people simply trying to win arguments on tho site. Be honest. Was this an admission that you changed your argument in midstream? If not, it seems a bit ironic that you are using the phrase I used to change the subject (let’s be honest).

I certainly don’t support anti-Hispanic sentiment but I am not interested in derailing the thread either. The issue is in regards to the churchs role in supporting those who violated the law. I’m not interested in debating the merits of racism. If people would like to do so they should start another thread.