Is it Right to Pledge Allegiance to the USA?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Kevin42
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Atreyu said:
The part of your post that I quoted. Here it is again:
I don’t want to hijack the thread, suffice to say that many, many places in the world enjoy an equal amount of freedom as the Americans.
Click to expand...
Could you give us some examples?
 
I’m still intrigued by this “guarantee” of freedom of speech which Americans claim is necessary for freedom.
Therefore will the Americans in the thread please tell me this.

Can you speak/write publicly without fear of investigation or prosecution and
  • make racist remarks
  • incite people to violence
  • tell lies about people which could destroy their lives
  • say you hate the president and intend to kill him
 
thistle said:
Can you speak/write publicly without fear of investigation or prosecution and
  • make racist remarks
  • incite people to violence
  • tell lies about people which could destroy their lives
  • say you hate the president and intend to kill him
Click to expand...
I speak for my DH and kids who are American…of course you can not do these things…you’ll end up in jail
 
thistle said:
I’m still intrigued by this “guarantee” of freedom of speech which Americans claim is necessary for freedom.
Therefore will the Americans in the thread please tell me this.

Can you speak/write publicly without fear of investigation or prosecution and
  • make racist remarks
  • incite people to violence
  • tell lies about people which could destroy their lives
  • say you hate the president and intend to kill him
Click to expand...
Yes
No
Yes
Yes to saying you hate him no to saying you intend to kill him.
 
Karin said:
I speak for my DH and kids who are American…of course you can not do these things…you’ll end up in jail
Click to expand...
If you don’t try to incite violence or are threaten physical harm to another person you can do everything he listed without fear of prosecution. You could possibly be prosecuted under the telling lies example but libel is very very hard to to prove and is not available to public figures.
 
estesbob said:
Yes
No
Yes
Yes to saying you hate him no to saying you intend to kill him.
Click to expand...
The fact that you have a couple of no’s means you do not have freedom of speech. What you have is freedom of speech within certain limitations.
Interesting too that poster bluehen claims we Brits don’t have freedom of speech so we have no freedom in our country.
Well we do have freedom of speech within limitations. However it seems our limitations make more sense. If you make racist remarks, for example, you can be prosecuted which is the right thing to do.
Nobody can be allowed to say anything they want. That is simply stupid.
Freedom most certainly does not depend on people being allowed, for example, to make racist remarks!!
 
estesbob said:
If you don’t try to incite violence or are threaten physical harm to another person you can do everything he listed without fear of prosecution. You could possibly be prosecuted under the telling lies example but libel is very very hard to to prove and is not available to public figures.
Click to expand...
true…I could call an african american the “n” word…would get the poop beaten out of myself though:(
 
thistle said:
The fact that you have a couple of no’s means you do not have freedom of speech. What you have is freedom of speech within certain limitations.
Interesting too that poster bluehen claims we Brits don’t have freedom of speech so we have no freedom in our country.
Well we do have freedom of speech within limitations. However it seems our limitations make more sense. If you make racist remarks, for example, you can be prosecuted which is the right thing to do.
Nobody can be allowed to say anything they want. That is simply stupid.
Freedom most certainly does not depend on people being allowed, for example, to make racist remarks!!
Click to expand...
My wife is Welsh and was amazed at how much greater freedom of speech we have than Britian, For instance When Bill Clintons last book was published in Britain substantial changes were made to protect him from libel lawsuits that could not have been filed in the United States. Britain also allows prior restraint on the press-and absolutely unheard of concept in the United States.

There simply is no comparison between the freedom of speech we enjoy in the United States and the limited freedom of speech that Britain allows its citizens. In fact no country in the world has more freedom of speech than does United States.
 
estesbob said:
My wife is Welsh and was amazed at how much greater freedom of speech we have than Britian, For instance When Bill Clintons last book was published in Britain substantial changes were made to protect him from libel lawsuits that could not have been filed in the United States. Britain also allows prior restraint on the press-and absolutely unheard of concept in the United States.

There simply is no comparison between the freedom of speech we enjoy in the United States and the limited freedom of speech that Britain allows its citizens. In fact no country in the world has more freedom of speech than does United States./QUOTE]

And you think its a good thing, for example, that you are allowed make racist remarks with impunity?? What kind of society is that??
Click to expand...
 
thistle said:
estesbob;1698097:
My wife is Welsh and was amazed at how much greater freedom of speech we have than Britian, For instance When Bill Clintons last book was published in Britain substantial changes were made to protect him from libel lawsuits that could not have been filed in the United States. Britain also allows prior restraint on the press-and absolutely unheard of concept in the United States.

There simply is no comparison between the freedom of speech we enjoy in the United States and the limited freedom of speech that Britain allows its citizens. In fact no country in the world has more freedom of speech than does United States
Click to expand...
./QUOTE]

And you think its a good thing, for example, that you are allowed make racist remarks with impunity?? What kind of society is that??

So Thistle, you seem to have gone from advocating free speech to now saying that we’re a lousy society because we actually have it.

In Canada and the UK, Christians have been threatened with arrest under speech laws for quoting from and advocating positions found in the Bible… e.g. Christians have faced prosecution for calling homosexuality immoral.

Who defines what is racist? Some things certainly are, but there are numerous examples of people accusing others of racism for poor reasons. There is a school of thought among a small segment of liberal academics that think that all whites are racist, and no black can ever be racist.

Freedom of speech is not the same as advocating the positions being espoused.

To use a Catholic term, it seems you have poor catechesis on the importance and definition of free speech.
Click to expand...
 
bluehen said:
thistle;1698126:
So Thistle, you seem to have gone from advocating free speech to now saying that we’re a lousy society because we actually have it.

In Canada and the UK, Christians have been threatened with arrest under speech laws for quoting from and advocating positions found in the Bible… e.g. Christians have faced prosecution for calling homosexuality immoral.

Who defines what is racist? Some things certainly are, but there are numerous examples of people accusing others of racism for poor reasons. There is a school of thought among a small segment of liberal academics that think that all whites are racist, and no black can ever be racist.

Freedom of speech is not the same as advocating the positions being espoused.

To use a Catholic term, it seems you have poor catechesis on the importance and definition of free speech.
Click to expand...
As for your opening comment I’m advocating free speech within limitations. You seem to want no limitations.

Free speech requires responsibility. You seem to be advocating that you should be allowed to say anything you want no matter how much it may damage an individual or society and if a country does not allow that then the people have no freedom (remember your deal breaker remark). I don’t think the people of any western European country feels they are not free.
Click to expand...
 
thistle said:
estesbob;1698097:
My wife is Welsh and was amazed at how much greater freedom of speech we have than Britian, For instance When Bill Clintons last book was published in Britain substantial changes were made to protect him from libel lawsuits that could not have been filed in the United States. Britain also allows prior restraint on the press-and absolutely unheard of concept in the United States.

There simply is no comparison between the freedom of speech we enjoy in the United States and the limited freedom of speech that Britain allows its citizens. In fact no country in the world has more freedom of speech than does United States
Click to expand...
./QUOTE]

And you think its a good thing, for example, that you are allowed make racist remarks with impunity?? What kind of society is that??

A soiciety that does not penalize people for their thoughts or words.

Who gets to decide what is racist, for instance? Is calling homosexual behavior sinful hate speech?

You live in a society where you can go to jail for expressng opinions the GOVT finds repugnant. Who wants to live in a society like that?
Click to expand...
 
I don’t want to hijack the thread, suffice to say that many, many places in the world enjoy an equal amount of freedom as the Americans.
Click to expand...
In fact, there are countries with much greater freedom than the US.

Search through different statistics. The very recent ‘freedom of press’ statistic pushed the US to some 53th place (along with Botswana for example).

Of course a lot Americans define freedom mainly in capitalistic terms which is in my opinion laughable.
 
Let’s not let this thread wander from what should be its focus, which is the question that Kevin posed about reciting the Pledge of Allegiance.

I wonder whether anyone wishes to contest my contention that a Catholic can recite the Pledge of Allegiance only if he or she includes this tacit reservation: “I pledge allegiance to the government of the United States only to the extent to which it does not violate the law of God.”

Thanks!

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
estesbob said:
Could you give us some examples?
Click to expand...
I’m perplexed as to why the Americans would seem to want to equate “freedom” with “freedom of speech”. There are of course, many many other factors that would influence exactly how much “freedom” one enjoys. I would suggest that the very fact that America allows abortions - and there are other countries where this is illegal - means that there are other countries that uphold human rights more effectively than America.

Seriously, what would you prefer: a country that has no anti-freedom-of-speech laws (I’m unaware of any countries that have this) that allows abortions, or a country that limits freedom of speech in some sensible ways, but upholds the rights of children? What “freedom” do the aborted American babies enjoy?

Frankly, I find the attitude of some of the Americans in this thread to be both ignorant and arrogant. Of course, under your highly-esteemed “freedom of speech” laws, you shouldn’t have any problem with me saying that.
 
Atreyu said:
Frankly, I find the attitude of some of the Americans in this thread to be both ignorant and arrogant. Of course, under your highly-esteemed “freedom of speech” laws, you shouldn’t have any problem with me saying that.
Click to expand...
:rotfl:Just because something is legal dosn’t make it right, therefore we can still legally have a problem with it. People still have the right to hate me cause I believe in something.

I personally see more to freedom than freedom of speech, but freedom of speech is an important part of freedom. Being worried that some high of Government official might decide that my opinions are wrong and therefore I should not be allowed to speak them is dangerous. It holds the opinions of some to be fact and others to be wrong, no matter about the truth, just who’s in charge. If those in charge are just and reasonable people, things won’t be too bad, but you get a nutcase in charge and its not pretty. The American way, nutcases in charge can say stupid stuff but they can’t stop me from saying they are nutcases.

As far as just being a mean jerk and saying things you shouldn’t, laws against stupidity really aren’t necessary. Note above posts about how it will get people beat up or ostracised from polite society.
 
Syele said:
:rotfl:Just because something is legal dosn’t make it right, therefore we can still legally have a problem with it. People still have the right to hate me cause I believe in something.

I personally see more to freedom than freedom of speech, but freedom of speech is an important part of freedom. Being worried that some high of Government official might decide that my opinions are wrong and therefore I should not be allowed to speak them is dangerous. It holds the opinions of some to be fact and others to be wrong, no matter about the truth, just who’s in charge. If those in charge are just and reasonable people, things won’t be too bad, but you get a nutcase in charge and its not pretty. The American way, nutcases in charge can say stupid stuff but they can’t stop me from saying they are nutcases.

As far as just being a mean jerk and saying things you shouldn’t, laws against stupidity really aren’t necessary. Note above posts about how it will get people beat up or ostracised from polite society.
Click to expand...
Yes and what you have just described is how freedom of speech works in all of the 10 countries that I have been to in my life. Of course, there are many many more countries that have similar laws. So there is more freedom in America… how?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top