Is it Right to Pledge Allegiance to the USA?

[FCEGM]

Lately I have been questioning whether it is right for me to be saying the pledge of allegiance in school. Please don’t take it that I don’t appreciate some of the ideals America is based on. However, today I was really reconsidering whether or not it is right for me to pledge allegiance to a country that has legalized abortion, and is pushing for embryonic stem-cell research. I would greatly appreciate anyone’s thoughts on this-whatever they may be .

Kevin, you might find this article of help in seeing the rightness of continuing to pledge allegiance to our country:

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1125

St. Thomas Aquinas had already coupled together these two devotions, to parents and to country (Summa Theologica, 2a, 2ae, Q. 101). Dealing with the virtue of “pietas,” dutifulness, he writes: “The principles (or origins) of our being and governing are our parents and our country, which have given us birth and nourishment. Consequently man is debtor chiefly to his parents and his country, after God. Wherefore, just as it belongs to religion to give worship to God, so does it belong to “pietas,” in the second place, to give worship to one’s parents and one’s country.” Thus, unlike nationalism, patriotism comes within the sphere of virtue, duty, and moral obligation.

That this is and has always been the teaching of the Catholic Church may be gathered from the pronouncements of the Head of the Church as collected in such a work as La Patrie et la Paix. Textes pontificaux.5 Thus we find Pius X, in an address delivered in French to French pilgrims on April 19, 1909, saying in express terms: “Si le catholicisme etait ennemi de la patrie, il ne serait plus une religion divine” (if Catholicism were the enemy of the country, it would no longer be a divine religion). He went on to say (the translation is mine): Yes, it is worthy not only of love but of predilection that country (patrie) whose sacred name awakens in your mind the most cherished memories and makes quiver every fiber of your soul, that common country which has cradled you, to which you are bound by bonds of blood and by still nobler bonds of affection and tradition."

Twenty years earlier Pope Leo XIII, in his Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae set forth patriotism as a moral obligation based on natural law. “If,” writes the Pope, “the natural law bids us give the best of our affection and of our devotedness to our native land so that the good citizen does not hesitate to brave death for his country, much more is it the duty of Christians to be similarly affected to the Church.”

 

[Syele]

Yes and what you have just described is how freedom of speech works in all of the 10 countries that I have been to in my life. Of course, there are many many more countries that have similar laws. So there is more freedom in America… how?

How could I possibly compare the USA’s freedoms to 10 other countries when you haven’t named what contries? Did I miss that somewhere?

 

[Atreyu]

How could I possibly compare the USA’s freedoms to 10 other countries when you haven’t named what contries? Did I miss that somewhere?

If you must…
Australia
New Zealand (transit lounge only though )
USA
Canada
Italy
Vatican City
France
England
Scotland
Spain.
I only mentioned this in the first place, to try to demonstrate that there are other countries out there that have similar freedom of speech laws, although not necessarily identical to that of the almighty USA.

 

[mary_bobo]

I’m perplexed as to why the Americans would seem to want to equate “freedom” with “freedom of speech”. There are of course, many many other factors that would influence exactly how much “freedom” one enjoys. I would suggest that the very fact that America allows abortions - and there are other countries where this is illegal - means that there are other countries that uphold human rights more effectively than America.

Seriously, what would you prefer: a country that has no anti-freedom-of-speech laws (I’m unaware of any countries that have this) that allows abortions, or a country that limits freedom of speech in some sensible ways, but upholds the rights of children? What “freedom” do the aborted American babies enjoy?

Frankly, I find the attitude of some of the Americans in this thread to be both ignorant and arrogant. Of course, under your highly-esteemed “freedom of speech” laws, you shouldn’t have any problem with me saying that.

Very charitable of you. You have your nerve calling people on this forum ignorant and arrogant. I think we can safely say the same about you.

 

[estesbob]

If you must…
Australia
New Zealand (transit lounge only though )
USA
Canada
Italy
Vatican City
France
England
Scotland
Spain.
I only mentioned this in the first place, to try to demonstrate that there are other countries out there that have similar freedom of speech laws, although not necessarily identical to that of the almighty USA.

Funny-In Australia a minister was recently charged with hate speech for preaching the Gospel passages concerning Homosexuality. In France one is not allowed to deny the Holocuast England has prior restraint laws on the press and you need govt approval to watch TV. I suspect that you have done a similar poor job of researching the other countries you listed.

 

[Karin]

Funny-In Australia a minister was recently charged with hate speech for preaching the Gospel passages concerning Homosexuality. In France one is not allowed to deny the Holocuast England has prior restraint laws on the press and you need govt approval to watch TV. I suspect that you have done a similar poor job of researching the other countries you listed.

Holocaust denial is a CRIME in most European Countires…this is not inclusive of France.
The way the laws are in this country I would not be surprised if talking out against homosexuals wouldnot be considered a Hate Crime soon too.

 

[estesbob]

Holocaust denial is a CRIME in most European Countires…this is not inclusive of France.
The way the laws are in this country I would not be surprised if talking out against homosexuals wouldnot be considered a Hate Crime soon too.

Its not-yet.

 

[Karin]

Its not-yet.

yet, being the key word

 

[estesbob]

yet, being the key word

On our nations campus’s the Left has tried to use “speech codes” to shut down any dissent on pushing their PC agenda. Fortunately we have organizations like this to defend Students free speech thefire.org/index.php/torch

 

[Atreyu]

Very charitable of you. You have your nerve calling people on this forum ignorant and arrogant. I think we can safely say the same about you.

OR those people who arrogantly claim that the USA is the most “free” country on Earth (whatever they mean by "free) is a claim made from ignorance.

 

[Atreyu]

Funny-In Australia a minister was recently charged with hate speech for preaching the Gospel passages concerning Homosexuality.

Strange that I didn’t hear about that.

In France one is not allowed to deny the Holocuast England has prior restraint laws on the press and you need govt approval to watch TV.

This has nothing to do with freedom! It’s a vestigial law based on a misunderstanding of how television antennas worked.

I suspect that you have done a similar poor job of researching the other countries you listed.

Again, how much freedom do your aborted babies have? How much freedom do the southern states have? You know, the ones that were conquered by the northern states? As far as I’m concerned, the southern states - and especially Texas who explicitly included the right to secede when joining the Union - had every right to secede, and so the so-called “Civil War” was really just the Union imposing their will on those states that did not want to remain part of the Union.

So how do we actually measure freedom? Some people here want to equate it with freedom of speech, to which I most sincerely disagree. I think that freedom of speech is a part of freedom, but there are other parts as well. Anyway, let’s talk about freedom of the press now. According to Reporters Without Borders (courtesy of Wikipedia), the USA ranks 53rd in the world according to freedom of the press. Surprisingly, this is behind Australia, New Zealand, France, Italy, Spain and the UK. According to Freedom House (also courtesy of Wikipedia), the USA ranks equal first with 50 other countries in terms of freedom of political right and civil liberties.

I’m not the one coming in here claiming that “my country has the most freedom in the world!” I’m simply claiming that there are other countries that enjoy just as much freedom as the USA. In fact, I consider it a kick in the teeth to be told that my country isn’t as “free” as the USA. That’s just ridiculous.

 

[estesbob]

Strange that I didn’t hear about that.

This has nothing to do with freedom! It’s a vestigial law based on a misunderstanding of how television antennas worked.

Again, how much freedom do your aborted babies have? How much freedom do the southern states have? You know, the ones that were conquered by the northern states? As far as I’m concerned, the southern states - and especially Texas who explicitly included the right to secede when joining the Union - had every right to secede, and so the so-called “Civil War” was really just the Union imposing their will on those states that did not want to remain part of the Union.

So how do we actually measure freedom? Some people here want to equate it with freedom of speech, to which I most sincerely disagree. I think that freedom of speech is a part of freedom, but there are other parts as well. Anyway, let’s talk about freedom of the press now. According to Reporters Without Borders (courtesy of Wikipedia), the USA ranks 53rd in the world according to freedom of the press. Surprisingly, this is behind Australia, New Zealand, France, Italy, Spain and the UK. According to Freedom House (also courtesy of Wikipedia), the USA ranks equal first with 50 other countries in terms of freedom of political right and civil liberties.

I’m not the one coming in here claiming that “my country has the most freedom in the world!” I’m simply claiming that there are other countries that enjoy just as much freedom as the USA. In fact, I consider it a kick in the teeth to be told that my country isn’t as “free” as the USA. That’s just ridiculous.

Have you actually read the convoluted reasoning behind Reporters Without Borders rankings??? Per their reasoning the US has less freedom of the speech precisely because we allow people to make racist remarks and deny the holocaust without prosecuting them!

There is no doubt we have the freest country on the face of the earth-perhaps the frrest country in the History of the world. Not only are we the freest country on the face of the earth we have been the greatest force of good the world has ever known. We have boiught frredom to more people than the rest of the world combined. Of course these activities have bought us the scorn of those who deny their people freedom but one does good becuase it is good-not to gain compliments.

If you dont beleive this dont move here. i am sure you can have a great life in one of those countires who rank ahead of us. just dont say anything their govt finds offensive or turn your TV on without their permission and you’ll get along fine.

 

[Atreyu]

Have you actually read the convoluted reasoning behind Reporters Without Borders rankings??? Per their reasoning the US has less freedom of the speech precisely because we allow people to make racist remarks and deny the holocaust without prosecuting them!

No I didn’t read it, I’ll have to look into that.

There is no doubt we have the freest country on the face of the earth-perhaps the frrest country in the History of the world. Not only are we the freest country on the face of the earth we have been the greatest force of good the world has ever known. We have boiught frredom to more people than the rest of the world combined. Of course these activities have bought us the scorn of those who deny their people freedom but one does good becuase it is good-not to gain compliments.

Clearly you and I have a different understanding of what it means to be “free”. You seem to understand it to mean you can say whatever you want without getting prosecuted. I think freedom is more to do with human rights.

Now, the “greatest force of good the world has ever known”?! You’re kidding me, right? Your country performed the second most despicable act that has ever been done in the history of the world - it dropped two nukes on cities to exterminate the civilian populace. There is absolutely no way you can tell me that this is the action of a “force of good”. By the way, the Catholic Church is the greatest force of good the world has ever known (next to Jesus).

If you dont beleive this dont move here. i am sure you can have a great life in one of those countires who rank ahead of us. just dont say anything their govt finds offensive or turn your TV on without their permission and you’ll get along fine.

I’ve been to America three times. One of those times I lived there for a year. While I was there I saw the riot police several times, and I couldn’t go to a party without it being closed down by the cops by midnight. That is not my idea of freedom…

 

[rr1213]

People in the United States enjoy a level of freedom that is unmatched by most, but not all, other nations in the world. Countries that have similar levels of freedom tend to be countries that, like the USA, have roots deriving from England or for which England was a strong influence (UK, Canada, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, etc.). Many other countries that are not Anglo in origin enjoy many of the same freedoms, but have not done so historically…in other words, freedom in these countries is of a more recent vintage than in the US. This would include most of the other countries in Europe (after all, prior to the Second World War, the majority of European countries were not liberal democracies…the record was even worse elsewhere in the world). Like many other countries, the history of freedom in the USA is not a history devoid of exceptions. Of course, the most significant such exceptions in the US involve the situation of African-Americans and Native Americans. There are others as well.

Nonetheless, whether you are talking about current levels of freedom or historical levels, the USA almost always will be at, or near, the head of the pack. For a very interesting comparison of freedom around the world, see Freedom House below:

freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15

 

[bankerdavid]

In the UK, can the common man become the leader of the nation? In the UK, is it lawful to own a gun? In England, when did it become OK to be a Catholic? Guilty until proven innocent? Law against formation of a state-sponsored religion?
Taxation without representation? Excess taxation?

And, since I believe Australia and EnZed were British colonies,
I believe the laws are essentially the same? Maybe more relaxed in respect to religious freedom…

 

[rr1213]

So what country do you call home, Atreyu? I am not familiar with Oz…

 

[Atreyu]

So what country do you call home, Atreyu? I am not familiar with Oz…

Oz-tralia! Thank you for bringing some sense to this thread, rr1213.

 

[Atreyu]

In the UK, can the common man become the leader of the nation? In the UK, is it lawful to own a gun? In England, when did it become OK to be a Catholic? Guilty until proven innocent? Law against formation of a state-sponsored religion?
Taxation without representation? Excess taxation?

And, since I believe Australia and EnZed were British colonies,
I believe the laws are essentially the same? Maybe more relaxed in respect to religious freedom…

Don’t get me started about that hideous 2nd Amendment. I would probably class that as the second worst law in America - next to the legality of abortion.

Anyway, I thought we were talking about the current situation, David? I mean, I could very well start talking about civil rights if you wanted me to. You must remember that this only occurred recently. I’m also pretty sure that the law of “innocent until proven guilty” has come to America from England. Certainly, we have this law in Australia. Now what is so uncommon about Tony Blair? Wait a second, he spent three years of his life in Australia - that does make him pretty special!

Now if you’re talking about the royal family, I don’t see this as a good argument. First of all, they have no real power, and so they have no influence over the relative freedom of the country. Secondly, I don’t see anything in democracy that is intrinsically “freer” than monarchism. In a democracy the majority always wins. This means that the minority always loses. The fact that the interests of minority groups are usually looked after in democracies is due more to morality than democracy itself. In a monarchy, the monarch is always free to choose the best course of action for his nation, without fear of reprisal. This of course can be abused, but the abuse is the exception - it is not intrinsic to monarchism.

As far as separation of church and state in the UK, they have a fair way to go still…

 

[estesbob]

No I didn’t read it, I’ll have to look into that.

Clearly you and I have a different understanding of what it means to be “free”. You seem to understand it to mean you can say whatever you want without getting prosecuted. I think freedom is more to do with human rights.

Now, the “greatest force of good the world has ever known”?! You’re kidding me, right? Your country performed the second most despicable act that has ever been done in the history of the world - it dropped two nukes on cities to exterminate the civilian populace. There is absolutely no way you can tell me that this is the action of a “force of good”. By the way, the Catholic Church is the greatest force of good the world has ever known (next to Jesus).

I’ve been to America three times. One of those times I lived there for a year. While I was there I saw the riot police several times, and I couldn’t go to a party without it being closed down by the cops by midnight. That is not my idea of freedom…

What freedoms do you have in Australia that we do not enjoy in the United States?

Next time you are in the US comer to my house and i guarantee you they wont shut the party down at midnite.

 

[rr1213]

I don’t see anything in democracy that is intrinsically “freer” than monarchism. In a democracy the majority always wins. This means that the minority always loses. The fact that the interests of minority groups are usually looked after in democracies is due more to morality than democracy itself. In a monarchy, the monarch is always free to choose the best course of action for his nation, without fear of reprisal. This of course can be abused, but the abuse is the exception - it is not intrinsic to monarchism.

A Constitutional Monarchy can be quite free…look at the UK or the Netherlands. However, any absolute monarch (short of the monarchy of Christ on Earth whenever that is brought about) is usually tyrannical in nature. As to minority rights, frankly few countries protect the rights of minorities better than the US. Our entire Constitutional system, with the concept of the various brances of government and the division of power between those branches (as well as between the federal and state governments) is designed to protect minority rights. Sometimes this is not the case in countries that use a parlimentary system where power in concentrated in the Prime Minister because, once the PM takes power, he actually has the ability to effectuate changes that might be detrimental to minority rights or interests.