Is it sinful to vote for Bernie Sanders?

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Bookcat said:
One cannot compare abortion - which is intrinsically grave evil with the death penalty which is not. The death penalty is not per se from the “culture of death” though one couls argue that the misuse of it is.

Yes we ought to seek to eliminate the death penalty - for the need for such is very rare these days.

But it is not something that can be compared to the Millions who die from Abortion.
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I don’t think anyone’s comparing the two. Just pointing out an inconsistency in the Tea Party’s rhetoric being pro-life only when it involves an unborn child. Makes them seem insincere.
 
PaulfromIowa said:
Mr. Sanders not only supports the abortion of innocent children but wants to use the force of government to force all Americans to pay for such murders. Can a Christian vote for such a policy? The answer should be obvious.
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If I’m not mistaken, our tax money already pays for a lot of gross immorality. Realistically, there is very little you and I can do about it. Especially on the issue of abortion. We might be able to get an anti-abortion politician into power, but he/she will almost surely be followed by another pro-choicer, one bigger and more ferocious than what we see even today. Unless we change our strategy. Pro-choicers are not convinced by pro-life rhetoric because it is almost exclusively campaigned by a party that has decidedly anti-life positions on almost every other issue. You cannot convince a person that no contraceptives will be helpful towards reducing abortions because contraception is only identifiable as evil from a religious perspective. Now, it is definitely he true perspective, but pro-choices will not see that. This battle has to be fought the way Jesus did. He first healed their ailments and then gave commands. We must do the same. We have to get rid of single-mother shaming, prenancy shaming, and welfare shaming, otherwise these women who don’t see that it is a life will have no reason to keep the child. Then they will be too caught up in the responsibility and guilt to be reasoned with and shown what a truly healthy human sexuality looks like.

Yes, Jesus told the woman to sin no more, but he saved her life first.
 
Mort_Alz said:
Let me get my complaints about him out of the way first.

He’s politically pro-choice. Annoyingly so since, to get enough voters to make a difference he has to appeal to the culture of death on that issue. I’m kind of concerned about how he will approach law enforcement in America. There is talk about the demilitarization of the police, which, in the face of increasing domestic terrorism is a silly idea. Disarming your own force and disarming the people is a grave matter in my opinion.

On the other hand, abortion and gay marriage are losing battles for Catholics on the political field. To be honest, I don’t know why we’re still fighting those battles on a political level. That being said, Bernie Sanders is very Christlike on some more pressing matters. I say more pressing in the sense that a favorable outcome can actually be achieved. He, like Christ, gets a sort of righteous anger at the fact that healthcare is run like a business which only gives good care to the rich. He says healthcare is kind of like the right to life. I think he’s right. And, that is consistent with our Catholic view of abortion.

On to my question. I think Bernie Sanders is one of he most sincere candidates. That exhibits the virtue of honesty. I like his Christlike quality of being angered at injustice, too. I want to vote for him. My reasoning for thinking I can vote for him without sinning despite his view on abortion is that we can only take what we can. It is similar to the just war doctrine. A war might be just, but if there is no chance of winning the war, then it would be unjust to wage it. You’d just be wasting the lives of your own troops. So it is on issues like abortion and gay marriage. We aren’t going to win a Catholic view in politics. It’s just not going to happen. But Bernie Sanders seems to be the only one who is Christlike on issues of healthcare and education. Any thoughts?
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Vote your conscience and you will be fine. There is no perfect candidate. Vote for the one you feel will do the most good overall.
 
Mort_Alz said:
I don’t think anyone’s comparing the two. Just pointing out an inconsistency in the Tea Party’s rhetoric being pro-life only when it involves an unborn child. Makes them seem insincere.
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Huh?

I think your barking up the wrong tree.

Tea Party?

What Tea Party?

No need for Tea Parties in this discussion…

The various Republican Pro Life Canadates are yes rather pro- life - and in other ways on the side of our Faith.
 
10gr8kids said:
Did I say it was? Is it Christian to charge people for food? You can eat as long as you pay enough. What about electricity, water, transportation? I haven’t been to the doctor in over 20 years except for my pregnancies. Most people spend more on their pets health than I do my health. It is a constant struggle for us to provide the neccisities for our family.
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Food is different and you know it. You can work almost any job and be able to pay for your food. The principal of don’t work don’t eat actually applies. But, when a person works 60 hours a week and still can’t pay for their healthcare, then something immoral is going on. That’s injustice.

Your example is irrelevant. Not everybody is healthy. In America, healthcare is run like a business and that is evil. Take that CEO for instance who raised the price of HIV meds to an ungodly high price. Sure, he said it was to fund further research for better HIV meds, but we all know that was a lie. He’s a businessman, not a doctor. He was just looking to turn a greater profit. What better way than to charge people crazy money for something they need to stay alive? What are they gonna do? Not pay for it?
 
Mort_Alz said:
Healthcare is different. When hospitals were purely Christian, patients didn’t pay a dime. The fact that food, water, etc. are paid for is a red herring.
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To the issue at hand, I’d like to know why childbirth - choosing life - is so blooming expensive compared to abortion. It’s oh-so-easy to harp on all the millions Planned Parenthood makes killing babies. What about how expensive it is to give birth at a hospital? Why don’t any Republicans take steps to make childbirth more affordable? 🤷
 
Bookcat said:
Huh?

I think your barking up the wrong tree.

Tea Party?

What Tea Party?

No need for Tea Parties in this discussion…

The various Republican Pro Life Canadates are yes rather pro- life - and in other ways on the side of our Faith.
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Yes, but their rhetoric is terrible and convinces no one because it does not adequately explain the Church’s position.
 
randomuser said:
To the issue at hand, I’d like to know why childbirth - choosing life - is so blooming expensive compared to abortion. It’s oh-so-easy to harp on all the millions Planned Parenthood makes killing babies. What about how expensive it is to give birth at a hospital? Why don’t any Republicans take steps to make childbirth more affordable? 🤷
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Exactly. And it’s not pro-choice to ask that question. If childbirth were more affordable and post-part in care, then maybe abortion wouldn’t be so appealing. That might actually prevent abortion.
 
Mort_Alz said:
In America, healthcare is run like a business and that is evil.
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I could not agree more. Just look at the cost of choosing life, top result on Google:

As noted in The Times recently, giving birth in the U.S. is more expensive than any other country in the world. Total costs average $18,329 for a vaginal delivery and $27,866 for a C-section, with the bulk of the bill going to insurers. However, families with insurance still have to pay about $3400 out of pocket.Jul 9, 2013
Opinion: Cost of U.S. childbirth outrageous - CNN.com
www.cnn.com/2013/07/09/opinion/declercq-childbirth-costs/

Why the heck is childbirth way more expensive than abortion? $30,000? To deliver a baby? Really? That’s obscene. 🤷
 
Mort_Alz said:
I don’t think anyone’s comparing the two. Just pointing out an inconsistency in the Tea Party’s rhetoric being pro-life only when it involves an unborn child. Makes them seem insincere.
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I’ve always wondered why “pro-life” stops after one is born!
 
Bernie seems like a nice man, but I will not vote for him. I hope he is the democrat nominee because I like him over Hillary.
 
Mort_Alz said:
Exactly. And it’s not pro-choice to ask that question. If childbirth were more affordable and post-part in care, then maybe abortion wouldn’t be so appealing. That might actually prevent abortion.
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+1 👍
 
Sounds like your mind is made up and you’d like either some reassurance to salve the conscience or to be talked out of it.

FWIW:
  1. If your family is in a burning building, do you leave them all because you “know” you can’t get everyone out, or do you save the ones you can? The world is aflame, and the prolife movement is saving the ones it can. None of them are dying for it, at least in this country. Not yet.
  2. By shear volume of those in peril, abortion is the largest issue. Upwards of 55 million have been slaughtered in their mother’s womb since Roe. How many executed adults? Just over 1400 since 1976. Let me say that again: 55 Million plus BABIES since 1973. Less than 1450 FELONS since 1976.
  3. Healthcare has been broken for over a century. But, it’s more broken now. The same people still can’t afford healthcare, but now the IRS gets to fine them because they can’t afford it. Electing yet another liberal train wreck isn’t going to fix ACA. At some point you have to scrap it and start over–way over. But the worth of millions of lives compared with a broken system which is still the best in the world at many things–I think one would have to ignore A LOT to make that stretch.
  4. Everyone is Christlike in some way. Know why? Because even Bernie Sanders is made in the image and likeness of God and is worthy of respect. That doesn’t mean we have to vote for him.
I don’t think you can make any cogent argument that this man is the lesser of the evils.
 
Tablefor9 said:
I don’t think you can make any cogent argument that this man is the lesser of the evils.
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The cost of childbirth - the cost of choosing life - is way too expensive.

Why are abortions more affordable than deliveries? 🤷
 
One must inform ones conscience first. Form it with the teachings of the Church and then with reason and prayer make a judgment of conscience.

(Such as the grave grave evil of abortion which he supports (crying right of a woman to her body), the evil of supporting homosexuality and homosexual marriage - including the evil of opposing the protection of the religious liberties of Christians who oppose such, he says he is a socialist, etc)

The fact alone that the person thinks Abortion is about the right of a woman to her body and that a politician does not see the reality of what a pregnancy is - what an abortion is -and thins a mother has the right to kill your little baby - that in itself shows that the person is not reasoning well…and thus for that fact alone are not fit for such a high office.

If ones reason tells one that it is ok to kill a little baby and that it is a mother right to do so - then ones reason is not working properly. And one is not to be given that sort of office. One does not want someone in the office of President whose reason is not working properly on such a serious and basic reality.

The person here is seeking to form their conscience -which is good. And as that formation continues the light can break on the way to not go…and the way to go…

Spoiler alert:

I cannot see such a choice as is being considered here to be consistent with a Christians well formed conscience.
 
Mort_Alz said:
Food is different and you know it. You can work almost any job and be able to pay for your food. The principal of don’t work don’t eat actually applies. But, when a person works 60 hours a week and still can’t pay for their healthcare, then something immoral is going on. That’s injustice.

Your example is irrelevant. Not everybody is healthy. In America, healthcare is run like a business and that is evil. Take that CEO for instance who raised the price of HIV meds to an ungodly high price. Sure, he said it was to fund further research for better HIV meds, but we all know that was a lie. He’s a businessman, not a doctor. He was just looking to turn a greater profit. What better way than to charge people crazy money for something they need to stay alive? What are they gonna do? Not pay for it?
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I don’t know it. And I don’t receive healthcare because I can’t afford it, not because I’m perfectly healthy. I’m not saying the high cost of healthcare is moral, I’m saying our societies anti-life values are immoral. If our society is saying that abortion, euthanasia is a good thing, why do I want them in control of my healthcare. I’m a stay at home mom, only a HS graduate, don’t make a lot of money, to society a nobody. Do I trust that this govt. will think my life is worth spending much money on? No
Yeah, we can afford to eat, but I can’t afford to buy all the fresh fruits and vegetables I want. I can’t afford the healthier wheat breads, I have to buy the cheapest white breads I can find. There are many more examples I could give you. Not to mention that if it wasn’t for the deer meat we have there wouldn’t be much meat in our diet.

I don’t vote for pro-life candidates because I’m rich and my life is easy, I do it because my well-formed conscience tells me without the right to life, there are no other rights.
 
Tablefor9 said:
Sounds like your mind is made up and you’d like either some reassurance to salve the conscience or to be talked out of it.

FWIW:
  1. If your family is in a burning building, do you leave them all because you “know” you can’t get everyone out, or do you save the ones you can? The world is aflame, and the prolife movement is saving the ones it can. None of them are dying for it, at least in this country. Not yet.
  2. By shear volume of those in peril, abortion is the largest issue. Upwards of 55 million have been slaughtered in their mother’s womb since Roe. How many executed adults? Just over 1400 since 1976. Let me say that again: 55 Million plus BABIES since 1973. Less than 1450 FELONS since 1976.
  3. Healthcare has been broken for over a century. But, it’s more broken now. The same people still can’t afford healthcare, but now the IRS gets to fine them because they can’t afford it. Electing yet another liberal train wreck isn’t going to fix ACA. At some point you have to scrap it and start over–way over. But the worth of millions of lives compared with a broken system which is still the best in the world at many things–I think one would have to ignore A LOT to make that stretch.
  4. Everyone is Christlike in some way. Know why? Because even Bernie Sanders is made in the image and likeness of God and is worthy of respect. That doesn’t mean we have to vote for him.
I don’t think you can make any cogent argument that this man is the lesser of the evils.
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Well, one thing I DIDN’T ask for was to be psychoanalyzed. Ad hominem is a big pet peeve of mine.

Yes, of course I already think my reasoning is sound, but I submit to the Church and wanted to double-check that voting in a such a way wasn’t forbidden. So far, no one has quoted a Church authority that has said so. The closest anyone has come was Tim Staples, but he is hardly an authority. He’s a lay apologist.
 
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