Is Jesus God?

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

Individually, its members, ultimately numbering 144,000, must “put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.” (Ephesians 4:24; Revelation 14:1, 3) This requires that they cultivate “the fruitage of the spirit,” described at Galatians 5:22, 23, and faithfully care for their stewardship.—1 Corinthians 4:2; 9:16.

JL: I have posted Eph4:24, Rv14:1-3, Gal5:22-23, 1Cor4:2 and 9:16 below as 1-5. Could you show me where any of them mention or remotely imply they are speaking only of 144,000 people? I wonder why the WT didn’t post the scripture instead of just Ephesians 4:24 etc.? Could it be they know those scriptures don’t say anything about the 144,000 except for Rv14:1-3

(1) [Eph4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil.]

Where does Eph4:24 tell us this applies only to the 144,000? So the WT teaches you, this doesn’t apply to you, but only to the 144,000. So you don’t have to put on the new man, to change from your former way of life, just go on as before. So you can lie, be angry, sin and give place to the devil? Where IS the evidence this is for a small group? there isn’t ANY. It is for all God’s baptized people, there is no such thing as a heavenly and earthly group. God’s people are ONE people.

(2) [Rv14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.]

Where does Rv14:1-3, say or imply there are only 144,000 who are in heaven. We can see that isn’t so. The 144,000 sing before the throne, the four beasts, and the ELDERS, the elders are men also, who are in heaven. That would make at lest 144,024. There are at lest 24 elders, see Rv4:4, 4:10, 5:8, 11:16 & 19:4.

If taken literally the 144,000 are ALL virgin MEN. I believe there are women JWs who take communion and therefore must be included in the 144,000, which would eliminate a literal interpretation. By the way, were in scripture are we told only a 144,000 can take communion? Also what tribes do those of the 144,000 still living belong to? To be literal wouldn’t they have to be of Jewish ancestry?

[Zeph3:13 THE REMNANT OF ISRAEL shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. 14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.]

(3) [Gal5:19 Now the WORK OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. 22 But THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And THEY THAT ARE CHRIST’S HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.]

Again no mention of 144,000, in Gal5:19. So it’s ok for you to do the works of the flesh, because you are not one of the 144,000? How do we crucify the flesh that we may live a new life? How are we united with Christ? The answers, baptism

[Rms 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were **BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? 4 We were therefore BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM INTO DEATH IN ORDER that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, WE TOO MAY LIVE A NEW LIFE. 5 IF we have been UNITED WITH HIM like this in his death, we will certainly also be UNITED WITH HIM in his resurrection. 6 For we know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—] [2Cor5:17 Therefore IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST, HE IS A NEW CREATURE: OLD THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL THINGS ARE become NEW.

(4) [1Cor4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.]

(5) [1Cor9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!]

Once again where, in 1Cor4:2&1Cor9:16, are the 144,000? Where does any scripture say there will only be 144,000 ordained ministers from Christ’s ascension till he returns in glory?

CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

144,000 “bought” have what is called the “seal of the living God.” Revelation, chapter 7, which deals with both the 144,000 spiritual Israelites and the “great crowd,” shows that only the 144,000 are marked “in their foreheads” with that “seal” as being “the slaves of our God.” None of the “great crowd” are reported as being sealed with that “seal of the living God,” only the 144,000 “slaves of our God.”

JL: The 144,000 are Jews who have been sealed with the same Holy Spirit, with which the great crowd is sealed at their baptism and confirmation, and made kings and priests. [Rv1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, AND WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD, 6 And HATH MADE US KINGS AND PRIESTS unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.]

How are sins washed away? Baptism. [Acts22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, AND WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.]

Do you know how the 144 thousand and the great crowd came about? For those who don’t here is a short and quick explaination, for the two classes within the JWs.

The JWs are divided into two classes of people. The 144 thousand or anointed class, are those JWs who alone are in the new covenant, they alone belong to the body of Christ, and only they take communion. There are eight to nine thousand of them left living. Since according the WT Christ closed the door to heaven in 1935, the very youngest would have to be in their eighties by 2010.

Those born after 1935 have no change to go to heaven and belong to the great crowd (multitude). The great crowd, a second class group, basically do all the work. The great crowd has no hope of heaven, can’t take communion, aren’t in the new covenant and are not members of Christ’s body. The great crowd if they follow the WT leaders, guess who? The anointed class, putting in their required hours and doing what they are instructed, they MIGHT be found worthy to live on paradise earth. This doctrine was the invention in 1935 of the president of the WT, Rutherford.

Long story short in 1935 there were some sixty-three thousand JW’s and the early Christians had to be a good part of the 144 thousand. A way had to be found so as not to exceed 144 thousand JW’s. If not the 144 thousand would have to be changed to a figurative instead of a literal number. Rutherford came up with the idea of an anointed class and a great crowd, with 1935 as the year Christ closed the door to heaven.

Information above gleaned from the book, Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses, by David A. Reed.)

The WT has no scripture or historic evidence for 1935 being the year Christ closed the door to heaven. They simply say, LIGHT FLASHED UP, which to me indicates a new REVLATION. Wouldn’t that make Rutherford a prophet.

To be a new doctrinal revelation from God would mean Christ either forgot to tell the apostles this teaching or Christ didn’t know of it. That would mean Christ’s revelation to the apostles was not complete and not final revelation. Therefore Apostolic Tradition and the Scriptures are materially insufficient revelation.

What happens when all those 80 plus year old anointed class, who feed and rule the great crowd die? How can those not in the new covenant or in the body of Christ feed themselves? Is the WT whipping the great crowd into a frenzy that the end will come before all the anointed class dies? One thing we can be sure of, before they all die, NEW LIGHT WILL JUST FLASH UP, and it will be a new story, with the end not years but only weeks away, as it has been since 1914.

CONTINUED:

 

[Ignatius]

I’ve started this thread to discuss the idea that Jesus is God. I don’t think so and no, I’m not a Jehovah’s Witness.

Christians all acknowledge the divinity of Christ. The divinity of Christ is a foundational belief for all Christians.

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]jlhargus;5991041]JL: JL: Again show me evidence there are only 144,000, spirit-begotten.
The 144,000 is not a literal number. [/SIGN]

In these statements–you are absolutely mistaken. AS I HAVE STATED IN A PREVIOUS POST:

Who are the 144,000

Consider some of the hints given in the wonderful mystery. (Rev 1 :1)

(Revelation 14:1-5) …And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.

WHERE? (Mt Zion Heb 12:22 (–But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels,)

…And they are singing as if a new song…and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

Bought how? 1 Cor 6:20 “for YOU were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God in the body of YOU people.” by Jesus’ blood

4These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins

Why would it say “defile themselves with women?” being with a woman is not defiling oneself

Are they literal virgins?.Remember what paul said "(2 Corinthians 11:2)

For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU as a chaste virgin to the Christ.

(Women in this case would be false idols) how do we know?

‘not defiling themselves with women’ and their being “virgins” would not mean that none of these 144,000 persons had ever been married, for the Scriptures do not forbid persons on earth who are to be joint heirs with Christ to marry. (1Ti 3:2; 4:1,3) Neither would it imply that all the 144,000 were men, for “there is neither male nor female” as far as the spiritual relationship of Christ’s joint heirs is concerned. (Ga 3:28)

The “women” therefore must be symbolic women, doubtless organizations such as Babylon the Great and her ‘daughters,’ false religious organizations, the joining of and participation in which would prevent one from being spotless. (Re 17:5, 18:16,22,23) This symbolic description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.

These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes.

Remember the covenant Jesus made with his disciples? (Luke 22:28, 29)

28*“However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29*and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,

These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

(James 1:18) Because he willed it, he brought us forth by the word of truth, for us to be certain firstfruits of his creatures. Compare Heb 3:1 “Heavenly calling”

5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

(Ephesians 5:27) that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, not having a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish.

SO WHO ARE THE 144,000----The Bible makes it very clear that it has never been God’s purpose to take all righteously disposed persons to heaven. (Matthew 11:11; Acts 2:34; Psalm 37:29) The grand privilege of sharing with Christ in the Kingdom of heaven is limited to a **“little flock” **who will be kings and priests with him for a thousand years.—Luke 12:32; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6.

The invitation to share in the heavenly Kingdom was first extended to the natural Israelites. But because of their lack of faith, they did not provide the full 144,000. So Samaritans and, later, people of all nations were invited. (Acts 1:8) The first of Christ’s joint heirs were anointed with holy spirit at Pentecost of 33 C.E. The selecting of this group continues until 144,000 have been sealed by God as approved. Then attention is directed to gathering persons who will live on earth as appreciative subjects of the heavenly government.
**
Those who are heirs of the heavenly Kingdom with Christ are referred to in the Scriptures as “chosen ones,” “holy ones,” persons “anointed . . . [by] God.” (2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 6:1, 2; 2 Corinthians 1:21) They are also described collectively as the “bride” of Christ. (Revelation 21:2, 9; Ephesians 5:22-32) Viewed from other standpoints, they are called “brothers” of Christ, “joint heirs with Christ” and “sons” of God. (Hebrews 2:10, 11; Romans 8:15-17; Ephesians 1:5) Regardless of their nationality, they are, spiritually speaking, “the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16; Romans 2:28, 29; 9:6-8) **

When Jehovah terminated his Law covenant with fleshly Israel, he brought spiritual Israel into a new covenant with himself. But his dealings with fleshly Israel while they were under the Law set a pattern of things to come. (Hebrews 10:1) Who, then, was foreshadowed by the nation of fleshly Israel, which was chosen by God as his “special property”? The facts point to spiritual Israel, those whom God has chosen to rule with Christ in heaven. (Compare Exodus 19:5, 6 with 1 Peter 1:3, 4 and 2:9.) With Christ they make up the agency by means of which blessings will be extended to all other obedient ones among mankind. Appreciation of this is a key to understanding the Bible.

If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd.” NOTICE TOO at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen.”

 

[jlhargus]

[SIGN]jlhargus;5991041]JL: JL: Again show me evidence there are only 144,000, spirit-begotten. The 144,000 is not a literal number. [/SIGN]

In these statements–you are absolutely mistaken. AS I HAVE STATED IN A PREVIOUS POST:

JL: I am sure you have STATED in many previous post, but STATEMENTS are not evidence. We can all say whatever, by making STATEMENTS. It is another thing to produce evidence. I am interested not in WT STATEMENTS, but actual scriptural evidence. Which I have NOT seen in this post or any of your PREVIOUS POST.

Who are the 144,000

Consider some of the hints given in the wonderful mystery. (Rev 1 :1)

JL: I see a STATEMENT, I see NO EVIDENCE. [Rv1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:]

Where’s the beef? I see no mention of 144 thousand.

(Revelation 14:1-5) … And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.

WHERE? (Mt Zion Heb 12:22 (–But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels,)[/uote]

…And they are singing as if a new song…and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

Bought how? 1 Cor 6:20 “for YOU were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God in the body of YOU people.” by Jesus’ blood

JL: Yes we WERE BOUGHT, by the shed blood of Christ. The price has been paid for all men not just 144K. All who believe, repent, are baptized for rremmision of sins and RECEIVE the Holy Spirit, as Peter tell us in Acts2:38-39 are God’s possion. You haven’t answered my question. Are only 144K and their children baptized the WT.

 

[jlhargus]

4These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins

Why would it say “defile themselves with women?” being with a woman is not defiling oneself

Are they literal virgins?.Remember what paul said "(2 Corinthians 11:2)

For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU as a chaste virgin to the Christ.

(Women in this case would be false idols) how do we know?

‘not defiling themselves with women’ and their being “virgins” would not mean that none of these 144,000 persons had ever been married, for the Scriptures do not forbid persons on earth who are to be joint heirs with Christ to marry. (1Ti 3:2; 4:1,3) Neither would it imply that all the 144,000 were men, for “there is neither male nor female” as far as the spiritual relationship of Christ’s joint heirs is concerned. (Ga 3:28)

The “women” therefore must be symbolic women, doubtless organizations such as Babylon the Great and her ‘daughters,’ false religious organizations, the joining of and participation in which would prevent one from being spotless. (Re 17:5, 18:16,22,23) This symbolic description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.

These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes.

Remember the covenant Jesus made with his disciples? (Luke 22:28, 29)

28*“However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29*and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,

These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

(James 1:18) Because he willed it, he brought us forth by the word of truth, for us to be certain firstfruits of his creatures. Compare Heb 3:1 “Heavenly calling”

5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

(Ephesians 5:27) that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, not having a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish.

SO WHO ARE THE 144,000----The Bible makes it very clear that it has never been God’s purpose to take all righteously disposed persons to heaven. (Matthew 11:11; Acts 2:34; Psalm 37:29) The grand privilege of sharing with Christ in the Kingdom of heaven is limited to a **“little flock” **who will be kings and priests with him for a thousand years.—Luke 12:32; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6.

The invitation to share in the heavenly Kingdom was first extended to the natural Israelites. But because of their lack of faith, they did not provide the full 144,000. So Samaritans and, later, people of all nations were invited. (Acts 1:8) The first of Christ’s joint heirs were anointed with holy spirit at Pentecost of 33 C.E. The selecting of this group continues until 144,000 have been sealed by God as approved. Then attention is directed to gathering persons who will live on earth as appreciative subjects of the heavenly government.
**
Those who are heirs of the heavenly Kingdom with Christ are referred to in the Scriptures as “chosen ones,” “holy ones,” persons “anointed . . . [by] God.” (2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 6:1, 2; 2 Corinthians 1:21) They are also described collectively as the “bride” of Christ. (Revelation 21:2, 9; Ephesians 5:22-32) Viewed from other standpoints, they are called “brothers” of Christ, “joint heirs with Christ” and “sons” of God. (Hebrews 2:10, 11; Romans 8:15-17; Ephesians 1:5) Regardless of their nationality, they are, spiritually speaking, “the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16; Romans 2:28, 29; 9:6-8) **

When Jehovah terminated his Law covenant with fleshly Israel, he brought spiritual Israel into a new covenant with himself. But his dealings with fleshly Israel while they were under the Law set a pattern of things to come. (Hebrews 10:1) Who, then, was foreshadowed by the nation of fleshly Israel, which was chosen by God as his “special property”? The facts point to spiritual Israel, those whom God has chosen to rule with Christ in heaven. (Compare Exodus 19:5, 6 with 1 Peter 1:3, 4 and 2:9.) With Christ they make up the agency by means of which blessings will be extended to all other obedient ones among mankind. Appreciation of this is a key to understanding the Bible.

If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd.” NOTICE TOO at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen.”

JL: Tell me how can 12 symbolic persons times 12 more symbolic persons equal 144,000 LITERAL PERSONS?

Rv7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED FROM POST 449: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5997404&postcount=449

(First-century Christians are spoken of as being “sealed” by means of holy spirit, which is an advance token of their heavenly inheritance. (Eph 1:13,14; 4:30) The seal signifies their being God’s possession (2Co 1:21,22) and shows that they are truly in line for heavenly life. AGAIN, the book of Revelation shows the number finally sealed to be only144,000.—Re 7:2-4; 9:4.)

JL: AGAIN, there is no mention or allusion to the 144,000 in Eph, or 2Cor. Yes the first century Christians received the seal of the living God as ALL Christians have and will till the end. We have been purchased by the cross and sealed as God’s possession, thru baptism. Being born again by water and the Spirit.

We become a child of God, sharing God’s very nature in our souls, by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Which takes us out of the flesh and into the spirit, our spiritual dead souls have been regenerated. Now our regenerated spirit, by God’s indwelling grace, can rule the flesh, whereas before the flesh ruled, fulfilling all it’s desires.

As Christ said, [Jn3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.] All human beings have been born of flesh. In baptism the Spirit regenerates our spirit, giving us new birth, a new spiritual life of grace, by the Spirit. We have become a new creature, [2Cor5:17 Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.]

[Mk16:16 HE that BELIEVETH and IS BAPTIZED SHAL BE SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned.] Mark 16:16 Applies to all people not just to 144,000. [Jn1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was THE TRUE LIGHT, which LIGHTETH EVERY MAN that cometh into the world.] Christ came to give grace or light to every man, that they might believe, repent, be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. Christ did not come and die on the cross for only a 144,000, but for all who accept him.

[Col2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Gal5:27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST. Titus3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, BY the WASHING of REGENERATION, and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST;]

There are actually two other seals that are permanent. Confirmation, gives a permanent seal Acts8:14-17, 19:5-6, by laying on of hands, and the words “Be sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Confirmation endues the baptized child of God, with power to witness for the faith. No longer as children but mature Christians, exercising their priestly duty.
[Lk3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: HE SHALL BAPTIZE you WITH THE HOLY GHOST AND WITH FIRE:] With water baptism we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. We are baptized with fire with Confirmation. Confirmation corresponds to Pentecost, for the individual Christian. Just as when the timed apostles, before Pentecost, were endued with power and became bold in the faith.

2Cor1:21 Now it is God who MAKES BOTH US AND YOU STAND FIRM IN CHRIST. HE ANOINTED US, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and PUT HIS SPIRIT IN OUR HEARTS as A DEPOSIT, guaranteeing what is to come.

Holy Orders or odination also gives a permanent seal with the gift of the Holy Spirit, again by laying on of hands. [2Tm1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.] Titus1:4-5, Acts 20:28, 1Tm4:14
.
In Acts 2:38-39, did Peter say, be baptized, but only the spirit class will receive remission of sins and the Holy Spirit? No Peter said THE PROMISE, which is the HOLY SPIRIT is for YOU and YOUR CHILDREN and ALL THOSE FAR OFF. Are the 144,000 and their children the only ones baptized? No not the last time I read.

CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

As for your comment:

JL: [SIGN][Rm8:8 and THOSE who are IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD. 9 However, YOU ARE NOT IN THE FLESH but in the Spirit, IF indeed THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU But IF ANYONE DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE DOES NOT BELONG TO HIM.] [/SIGN]

dj dave: Paul is talking about "fleshly tendencies’ Just as he spoke about at Galatians 5:16 “Keep walking by spirit and you will carry out no fleshly desire at all.” If we let God’s spirit guide us, we will not be overcome by improper fleshly desires.—Romans 8:2-10.

he explained: “Those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires. If we are living by spirit, let us go on walking orderly also by spirit.” (Galatians 5:19-21, 24,25) What qualities does God’s spirit produce in those who live and walk by spirit? “The fruitage of the spirit,” wrote Paul, “is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22,23)

JL: Point is those in the flesh are those who do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them. If only 144,000 have the Sprit then the rest are IN THE FLESH and cannot please God. Rm:89 However, YOU ARE NOT IN THE FLESH but in the Spirit, IF indeed THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU

But IF ANYONE DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE DOES NOT BELONG TO HIM.] If you don’t have the Spirit dwelling in you, you are in the flesh and do NOT belong to Christ.

[Rm8:23 And not only they, BUT OURSELVES ALSO, WHICH HAVE THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THE **SPIRIT, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, to wit, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY. Those with the SPIRIT are the ones waiting for the redemption of their bodies.]

Those who do not have the SPRIT are in the flesh, not in the SPIRIT. They do not belong to God, because they are still in the FLESH and cannot please God.

CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

Now the other part of your comment:

JL: [SIGN] Christ’s now transformed glorified spiritual body could pass into a locked room and yet his apostles could touch and feel his flesh and bones and see HIS wounds.

Why would John make a point to say “a locked door”? How can bone go through a "Locked Door?

JL: John made that point because that body Christ showed the apostles passed thru that locked door. By the same power Adam and Eve were created to live without dying. By the same power two MEN walked on water, by the same power that multiplied the loafs and fish. By the same power the lame walked, etc… We are not talking about the NATURAL body, but a SUPERNATURAL glorified spiritualized body, yet it is the same body laid in the grave.

Also, a spiritual glorified body has wounds?..What if a person was burned to death at the stake…will he be resurrected with burn scars??

JL: We will be raised with perfect bodies. Christ’s wounds are a sign of glory not disfigurement. Those wounds are a propitiation and remembrance to the Father of Christ’s once for all sacrifice.

[Rv 5:6 …in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN …] Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb the Bread of Life with his atoning blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies in the midst of the throne before God the Father mediating,

[1Jn2:1 MY LITTLE CHILDREN, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And IF ANY MAN SIN, we have AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and NOT FOR OURSS ONLY, BUT also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.]

Christ in heaven is our propitiation for sins after baptism, that’s how he is a mediator, bringing to remembrance and making present his once for all sacrifice of great mercy. Our PURE OFFERING, Jesus Christ, our living High Priest making intercession for us. That same once for all sacrifice of the cross. There is no re-sacrifice it is the same once done MADE PRESENT to us a living memorial sacrifice.

[Rv 5:6 And I beheld in the midst of the throne … stood a Lamb as it had been slain… Hb 7: 17 …Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hb 7:24 … this man…continues ever…an unchangeable priesthood 25 Wherefore he is able also to save … seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them. … Hb 8…We have such an high priest… 2 A minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle …3 … every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices wherefore IT IS OF NECESSITY THAT THIS MAN HAVE SOMEWHAT ALSO TO OFFER 4 …priests that offer gifts according to the law 5 … serve to the EXAMPLE and SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS… … 6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry… MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT … Hb9:24 For Christ is not entered into the hoy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; BUT into HEAVEN itself, NOW TO APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US:] (I shortened the above to save space.)
The MAN Jesus Christ our mediator, is not just sitting and watching events, he is our High Priest interceding for us with the Father, bringing to remembrance to the Father and to us that same once for all sacrifice of the lamb on the Cross which we eat at Mass, just as the Israelites ate their Passover lamb. [JN 6:55 My flesh IS meat indeed, my blood IS drink indeed.

Malacahi 1:11 … from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be offered to my name AND A PURE OFFERING]

The prophecy of Malachi says Gentiles will offer incense and make a pure offering (sacrifice) to the Lord’s Name from the rising to setting of the sun in every place. That is fulfilled in the Catholic Church as that same once for all sacrifice of the cross is made present at Mass which is celebrated by priests in every parish daily in all places, the Orthodox Church has this same pure offering also. The OT offerings where clean but not pure only Christ our sacrifice is pure.

The fruit of the the Tree of Life=Cross our Passover Lamb is eaten at mass. [Hb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren THAT HE MIGHT BE a merciful and faithful HIGH PRIEST in things pertaining to God TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE

1Jn 2:2 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Hb9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; BUT THE HEAVENLY things themselves WITH BETTER SACRIFICES than these.]

[Hb9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but THE HEAVENLY THINGS themselves WITH BETTER SACRIFICES than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places MADE WITH HANDS, which are THE FIGURES OF THE TRUE; BUT INTO HEAVEN itself, now TO APPEAR in the presence of God FOR US:]

BETTER SACRIFICES, plural, because that once for all sacrifice of Christ is made sacramentally present to us each time mass is offered .

CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus is in Heaven with a body of “flesh and bone”?

JL: Yes, and there is no problem with 1Cor15:50. Christ’s flesh and bone has been transformed into a glorified spiritual body suited for heaven,. If the SAME body is not RAISED then there is no such thing as a RESURRECTION, is there?

[Jn19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.]

For the victim, it is finished, the victim is dead and the blood of the victim has been shed, but the atonement has not been made. The atoning blood had to be taken by the High Priest into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled on the mercy seat and the pascal lamb eaten. Christ that sacrificial victim, had to be resurrected and ascend into heaven, he is both victim and priest.

He rose not as victim, but as our High Priest, to enter into the Holy of Holies made without hands, WITH HIS ATONING BLOOD, taking his seat at the right hand of God the Father. Bringing to rememberance by his presents as the Lamb slain ever showing his wounds and blood to the Father and making that once for all sacrifice present to us. Plus the sacrificed lamb had to be eaten, which we eat at mass. 1Cor15:17 And IF CHRIST BE NOT RAISED, your faith is vain; YE ARE YET IN YOUR SINS.

Rm8:23 And not only they, BUT OURSELVES ALSO, WHICH HAVE THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THE SPIRIT, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, to wit, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.

[1Cor15:14 And IF CHRIST BE NOT RISEN, THEN IS OUR PREACHING VAIN, and your faith is also vain. 15 YEA, AND WE ARE FOUND **FALSE WITNESSES OF GOD; BECAUSE WE HAVE TESTIFIED of GOD that he RAISED UP CHRIST: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.]

Isn’t Paul telling us, if we preach Christ is not raised, but some angel came back into existance, would make them FALSE witnesses of Jehovah? If the WT teaches man is a body only, then a different body would not be the SAME person, would it?

We know it is the same body, although supernaturally transformed from a corruptible body to an incorruptible body. Paul tells us in 1Cor15:14-15. Christ WAS RAISED. What was raised? Christ’s body, the same body laid in the tomb or our faith is in vain.

[Mk16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: YE SEEK JESUS OF NAZARETH, which was CRUCIFIED: HE is risen; HE is not here: behold the place where they laid HIM. 7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that HE goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see HIM, as HE said unto you.] The same Jesus of Nazareth crucified, HE is RISEN.

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, DESTROY THIS TEMPLE, and IN THREE DAY I WILL RAISE IT UP. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But HE SPAKE OF THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY. 22 WHEN therefore HE WAS RISEN from the dead, HIS DISCIPLES REMEMBERED that HE HAD SAID THIS UNTO THEM; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.]

By the way here are more human beings who will be IN HEAVEN in addition to the 144k.

Mt8:11 And I say unto you, That MANY SHALL COME FROM THE EAST AND WEST, AND shall SIT down WITH ABRAHAM, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, IN THE KIMGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Lk13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when YE SAHLL SEE ABRAHAM, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, AND ALL THE PROPHETS, IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and you yourselves thrust out.

CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

(1 Peter 3:18) ...Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.

On some occasions the disciples did not know or recognize the resurrected Jesus. (Matt. 28:16, 17; Luke 24:15, 16; John 20:14-16; 21:4-12) The explanation for this is given in the words found in the Latin Vulgate, the Roman Catholic Douay Version, the German Luther Bible and the Authorized (King James) Version, in Mark 16:12. This verse in the Douay Version reads: “And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.”

JL: [Mt28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but SOME DOUBTED.]

Doesn’t say they didn’t recognise him, does it? It says they DOUBTED, doesn’t say what they DOUBTED. They could have doubted their own eyes. They could have doubted he really died or that he really rose from the dead. They could have doubted wheather they should have worshipped him. It says, when they SAW HIM, they WORSHIPPED HIM: but some doubted.

[Lk24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. 16 BUT THEIR EYES WERE HOLDEN THAT THEY SHOULD NOT KNOW HIM.]

Point is Christ did not want to be recognized. I have know problem with Christ not being recognized at any point in any scripture, including Mark16:12.

The Greek word there translated “shape” is morphé, which the Greek-English Lexicon says means “form, shape, fashion, appearance.” But even apart from what Mark 16:12 says, a careful study of the resurrection appearances makes it clear to the honest investigator, who does not need to be a Sherlock Holmes of a detective, that the resurrected Jesus materialized different bodies to suit the occasion.

On at least two occasions he materialized bodies that resembled the one in which he had been nailed to the stake. (Luke 24:38-40; John 20:20-27) Is it On other occasions the form or shape that he materialized left the disciples in doubt for a while.

JL: I see you have posted no evidence just a statement, with book & verse that is supposed to support the WT statement. I have found when the WT has only book & verse in there statements, it never supports their words.

[Lk24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, AND SUPPOSED THAT THEY HAAD SEE A SPIRIT. 38 And HE SAID unto them, WHY ARE YE TROUBLED? and WHY DO THOUGHTS ARISE IN YOUR HEARTS? 39 Behold MY HANDS and MY FEET, that **IT IS I MYSELF: HANDLE ME, and SEE; for A SPIRIT HATH NOT flesh AND bones, AS YE SEE ME HAVE. 40 And when he had thus spoken, HE SHEWED THEM HIS HANDS AND HIS FEET. 41 And while THEY YET BELIEVED NOT FOR JOY, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?]

[Jn20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have **SEEN the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: THEN CAME JESUS, THE DOORS BEING SHUT, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and BEHOLD MY HANDS; and reach hither thy hand, and THRUST IT INTO MY SIDE: and BE NOT FAITHLESS, but believing. 28 And THOMAS answered and SAID unto him, MY LORD AND MY GOD. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast SEEN ME, THOU HAST BELIEVED: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.]

1Cor15:4 And that HE WAS BURIED, and that HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY according to the scriptures: 5 And that HE WAS SEEN OF CEPHAS, then OF THE TWELVE: 6 After that, HE WAS SEEN OF ABOVE FIVE HUNDRED BRETHREN AT ONCE; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Mk16:14 Afterward HE appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had SEEN HIM AFTER HE WAS RISEN.

Acts1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? THIS SAME JESUS, which is TAKEN UP FROM YOU INTO HEAVEN, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM GO INTO HEAVEN.

Show me where the scriptures ever say OR IMPLY Christ materialized a body for himself, after the resurrection? I would like to see that scripture. Strong’s Greek Definition for MORPHE #3444 also goes on to say, the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision, external appearance. apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=3444

I have no problem with Christ changing his appearance or form. It is still the same BODY laid in the tomb, otherwise it is NOT a resurrection, is it? Christ Changed his body appearance even before His death and resurrection. He certainly wasn’t a bodiless so called spirit being then was he?

[Mt17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was TRANSFIGURED before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.]

Strong’s Greek Definition for transfigure #3339 has, metamorphoo. Means to transfigure, transform, change. Change into another form, to transform, to transfigure. apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=3339

CONTINUED:

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN][SIGN]

CONTINUED:
JL: John made that point because that body Christ showed the apostles passed thru that locked door. By the same power Adam and Eve were created to live without dying. [/SIGN]

Adam and eve were created with perfect bodies where the cell rejuvenation would continue forever., NOT “SUPERNATURAL glorified spiritualized bodies”

[SIGN]By the same power two MEN walked on water, by the same power that multiplied the loafs and fish. By the same power the lame walked, etc… We are not talking about the NATURAL body, but a SUPERNATURAL glorified spiritualized body, yet it is the same body laid in the grave. [/SIGN]

Peter did not have a a “SUPERNATURAL glorified spiritualized body” to walk on water. Holy spirit enabled him to do so as well as the other miracles.

[SIGN]JL: We will be raised with perfect bodies. Christ’s wounds are a sign of glory not disfigurement. Those wounds are a propitiation and remembrance to the Father of Christ’s once for all sacrifice.[/SIGN]

Does he still bear the marks of these wounds in heaven?

[SIGN][Rv 5:6 …in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN …] Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb the Bread of Life with his atoning blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies in the midst of the throne before God the Father mediating,[/SIGN]

jlhargus… That was a VISION. it was presented to John in SYMBOLS. Rev 1:1
Jesus was depicted that way in the VISION because it helps us to see who is being spoken of and helps us clarify a correct interpretation. He was no more a actual ‘slain’ image than there was a 7 headed beast and locusts with man’s faces. Rev 9:7 and 13:1
Ect.

ALSO, I think you misunderstood me regarding the 144,000
remember I stated:

"Those who are heirs of the heavenly Kingdom with Christ are referred to in the Scriptures as “chosen ones,” “holy ones,” persons “anointed . . . [by] God.” (2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 6:1, 2; 2 Corinthians 1:21) They are also described collectively as the “bride” of Christ. (Revelation 21:2, 9; Ephesians 5:22-32) Viewed from other standpoints, they are called “brothers” of Christ, “joint heirs with Christ” and “sons” of God. (Hebrews 2:10, 11; Romans 8:15-17; Ephesians 1:5) Regardless of their nationality, they are, spiritually speaking, “the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16; Romans 2:28, 29; 9:6-8) "

Those expressions do not apply to everyone that becomes a Christian.

…all people that accept the sacrifice of Jesus have access to God’s holy spirit. It is what helps them throughout their lives to be a Christian. My thoughts were --that to be a “new Creation” applys only to those going to heaven to rule with Christ.

(This covers everything that your many recent posts address. I simply cannot take the time to answer everything you have stated one comment at at time–I can see that you are truly compassionate about your beliefs and I admire your exaustive research too.)

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]jlhargus;6005021]CONTINUED:

Malacahi 1:11 … from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be offered to my name AND A PURE OFFERING]

The prophecy of Malachi says Gentiles will offer incense and make a pure offering (sacrifice) to the Lord’s Name from the rising to setting of the sun in every place. That is fulfilled in the Catholic Church as that same once for all sacrifice of the cross is made present at Mass which is celebrated by priests in every parish daily in all places, the Orthodox Church has this same pure offering also. The OT offerings where clean but not pure only Christ our sacrifice is pure. [/SIGN]

The witness to Jehovah’s name and purpose must be given “throughout all the earth.” This is what was foretold by the prophet Malachi: “From the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles [nations]; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and** a pure offering**.” So the good news of Jehovah’s kingdom must be proclaimed far and wide! This is a work not to be done in a corner, but “in every place.” **The “incense” that is offered is, of course, not literal, but is “the odor of the knowledge” of Jehovah, which, the apostle said, must be diffused “in every place.” **2 Cor. 2:14-16…This great witness work was also foretold by Christ Jesus as being part of the sign of the “last days” of Satan’s world rule: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for the purpose of a witness to all the nations, and then the accomplished end will come.”—Mal. 1:11, AS; Matt. 24:14, NW.

**“a pure offering”…**we belive Malachi is speaking of the same thing that Paul does at Hebrews 13:15 (Knox), namely, the “sacrifice of praise, the tribute of lips that give thanks to his name” True Christians offer up spiritual sacrifices of praise, not flesh-and-blood sacrifices, as did the priests under the Mosaic law.—1 Pet. 2:5

.“THE most perfect act of worship that can be made to God.” Thus the National Catholic Almanac (1951) describes the mass of the Roman Catholic Church. We further quote: “The Mass is the unbloody renewal of the Sacrifice of our Lord upon the cross. In it the priest, as the representative of Christ, offers to God the bread and wine, which he changes into the Body and Blood of our Lord at the Consecration, and then completes the sacrifice by consuming the Host and drinking the chalice at the Communion.” The mass, we are further assured, “is the perpetuation of the sacrifice of Calvary,” “is identical with the Sacrifice of the Cross.”

Did Jesus Christ institute the sacrifice of the mass on that last evening he spent with his apostles in the upper room, after they had celebrated the passover? There was a time when to raise such a question meant risking being burned at the stake. History records that an English tailor, a Lollard (follower of Wycliffe), John Badby by name, was burned at the stake in Smithfield Market, London, in the year 1410, because he held to the opinion that ‘Christ sitting at supper could not give his living body to his disciples to eat’.—England in the Age of Wycliffe, page 335.

Christ institute a sacrificial arrangement back there or merely a memorial of his death? Rather the latter. In offering the bread and wine to his apostles, did he say: “Do this in sacrifice of me”? No, he said: “Do this for a commemoration of me.” (Luke 22:19, Dy) And if the wine was at that time actually his blood, then his blood would already have been shed. But he referred to its being shed as still in the future, “which SHALL BE shed for many.” That wine only represented but was not actually his blood. Further, had the wine been transubstantiated into his blood would he still have termed it the “fruit of the vine”?—Mark 14:23-25, Dy.

If actual transubstantiation takes place, from wine to bona fide blood, then why is the mass referred to as an “unbloody sacrifice”? It cannot be both, the actual flesh and blood and at the same time an unbloody sacrifice. Besides, if it is unbloody, then how can it have any sin-removing value, since Paul assures us that “without shedding of blood there is no remission”? (Heb. 9:22, Dy) For shedding Jesus’ literal blood the Jewish nation was held guilty before God and suffered severe punishment. (Matt. 21:33-46; 23:33-38; 27:25; Luke 23:28-31)

The apostle Paul uses an expression in likening Jesus to a rock. After telling of the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt he states that they “all ate the same spiritual food [manna], and all drank the same spiritual drink (for they drank from the spiritual rock which followed them, but the rock WAS Christ)”. Was that rock from which the Israelites obtained water in the wilderness actually Christ, or did it mean, represent or stand for Christ? Then why insist that when Jesus used an identical expression he was referring to his actual body? Clearly by the words “this is my body”, “this is my blood,” Christ was not instituting a sacrifice of himself over and over—1 Cor. 10:1-4,

Gotta run.

 

[jlhargus]

[SIGN][SIGN]
jlhargus;6005021:

CONTINUED:
JL: John made that point because that body Christ showed the apostles passed thru that locked door. By the same power Adam and Eve were created to live without dying. [/SIGN]

Dj: Adam and eve were created with perfect bodies where the cell rejuvenation would continue forever., NOT

“SUPERNATURAL glorified spiritualized bodies”

JL: I didn’t say Adam and Eve had a supernatural body. You asked, how flesh and bone could pass thru a locked door. I answered,

**BY THE SAME POWER **Adam and Eve were created to live without dying. BY THE SAME POWER two MEN walked on water, **by the same power **that multiplied the loafs and fish. ** By the same power **the lame walked, etc… We are not talking about the NATURAL body, but a (Christ’s) SUPERNATURAL glorified spiritualized body, yet it is the same body laid in the grave.

[SIGN]By the same power two MEN walked on water, by the same power that multiplied the loafs and fish. By the same power the lame walked, etc… We are not talking about the NATURAL body, but a SUPERNATURAL glorified spiritualized body, yet it is the same body laid in the grave. [/SIGN]

Dj: Peter did not have a a “SUPERNATURAL glorified spiritualized body” to walk on water. Holy spirit enabled him to do so as well as the other miracles.

JL: Nor did I say Peter had a SUPERNATURAL body. It seems to me you are throwing up a smoke screen to divert attention from the fact you have no answers or WT remarks, with which to answer the real issues.

[SIGN]JL: We will be raised with perfect bodies. Christ’s wounds are a sign of glory not disfigurement. Those wounds are a propitiation and remembrance to the Father of Christ’s once for all sacrifice.[/SIGN]

Dj: Does he still bear the marks of these wounds in heaven?

JL: You are repeting yourself, so I will repeat my answer; “We will be raised with perfect bodies. Christ’s wounds are a sign of glory not disfigurement. Those wounds are a propitiation and remembrance to the Father of Christ’s once for all sacrifice.”

[SIGN][Rv 5:6 …in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN …] Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb the Bread of Life with his atoning blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies in the midst of the throne before God the Father mediating,[/SIGN]

jlhargus… That was a VISION. it was presented to John in SYMBOLS. Rev 1:1
Jesus was depicted that way in the VISION because it helps us to see who is being spoken of and helps us clarify a correct interpretation. He was no more a actual ‘slain’ image than there was a 7 headed beast and locusts with man’s faces. Rev 9:7 and 13:1
Ect.

JL: Why not just use the name Jesus, wouldn’t we know who is being spoken of. I notice you didn’t tell us why Jesus symbolically appears as a lamb slain, Why?

Yes it is symbolic, telling us how Christ mediates for his people, making present to the Father and us that once for all sacrifIce.

 

[jlhargus]

Dj: ALSO, I think you misunderstood me regarding the 144,000 remember I stated:

"Those who are heirs of the heavenly Kingdom with Christ are referred to in the Scriptures as “chosen ones,” “holy ones,” persons “anointed . . . [by] God.” (2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 6:1, 2; 2 Corinthians 1:21) They are also described collectively as the “bride” of Christ. (Revelation 21:2, 9; Ephesians 5:22-32) Viewed from other standpoints, they are called “brothers” of Christ, “joint heirs with Christ” and “sons” of God. (Hebrews 2:10, 11; Romans 8:15-17; Ephesians 1:5) Regardless of their nationality, they are, spiritually speaking, “the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16; Romans 2:28, 29; 9:6-8) "

Those expressions do not apply to everyone that becomes a Christian.

JL: Really show me where the scriptures teachs that scripture applies MOSTLY to only144K people? Well as I said the last time you posted those, book & verse only scriptures, give me evidence that they apply only to a 144 thoursand. Not one of them EVER refers to a 144 thousand, but to all God’s people. I challenge you to post any of your above scriptures not just book&verse and show where and how any of them apply to 144k. That is simply a tradition of men and nothing more.

Rv21:1 And I saw A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for THE FIRST HEAVEN and THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea. 2 And I JOHN SAW THE holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, COMING DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared **AS A BRIDE **adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, and HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and GOD HIMSELF SHALL BE WITH THEM, and be their God.

Rv21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and SHOWED ME THE HOLY CITY, JERUSALEM, COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.

Dj: …all people that accept the sacrifice of Jesus have access to God’s holy spirit. It is what helps them throughout their lives to be a Christian. My thoughts were --that to be a “new Creation” applys only to those going to heaven to rule with Christ.

JL: Yes all God’s people who BELIEVE, REPENT, are BAPTIZED for REMSSION OF SINS and RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. There is no such thing as a heavenly and earthly group. I believe according to the WT Abraham and all OT saints will not be in heaven, yet scriptures tells us otherwise. I wonder who is right scripture or WT? Peter tells us THE PROMISE is for you and your CHILDREN. You have never answered is THE PROMISE only for 144 thousand and their children?

Mt8:11 And I say unto you, That MANY SHALL COME FROM THE EAST AND WEST, AND shall SIT down WITH ABRAHAM, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, IN THE KIMGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Lk13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when YE SAHLL SEE ABRAHAM, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, AND ALL THE PROPHETS, IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and you yourselves thrust out.

Dj: (This covers everything that your many recent posts address. I simply cannot take the time to answer everything you have stated one comment at at time–I can see that you are truly compassionate about your beliefs and I admire your exaustive research too.)

JL: You know better and so do I, your statement is another smoke screen.

 

[cides23]

Dj: ALSO, I think you misunderstood me regarding the 144,000 remember I stated:

"Those who are heirs of the heavenly Kingdom with Christ are referred to in the Scriptures as “chosen ones,” “holy ones,” persons “anointed . . . [by] God.” (2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 6:1, 2; 2 Corinthians 1:21) They are also described collectively as the “bride” of Christ. (Revelation 21:2, 9; Ephesians 5:22-32) Viewed from other standpoints, they are called “brothers” of Christ, “joint heirs with Christ” and “sons” of God. (Hebrews 2:10, 11; Romans 8:15-17; Ephesians 1:5) Regardless of their nationality, they are, spiritually speaking, “the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16; Romans 2:28, 29; 9:6-8) "

Those expressions do not apply to everyone that becomes a Christian.

JL: Really show me where the scriptures teachs that scripture applies MOSTLY to only144K people? Well as I said the last time you posted those, book & verse only scriptures, give me evidence that they apply only to a 144 thoursand. Not one of them EVER refers to a 144 thousand, but to all God’s people. I challenge you to post any of your above scriptures not just book&verse and show where and how any of them apply to 144k. That is simply a tradition of men and nothing more.

Rv21:1 And I saw A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for THE FIRST HEAVEN and THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea. 2 And I JOHN SAW THE holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, COMING DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared **AS A BRIDE **adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, and HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and GOD HIMSELF SHALL BE WITH THEM, and be their God.

Rv21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and SHOWED ME THE HOLY CITY, JERUSALEM, COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.

Dj: …all people that accept the sacrifice of Jesus have access to God’s holy spirit. It is what helps them throughout their lives to be a Christian. My thoughts were --that to be a “new Creation” applys only to those going to heaven to rule with Christ.

JL: Yes all God’s people who BELIEVE, REPENT, are BAPTIZED for REMSSION OF SINS and RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. There is no such thing as a heavenly and earthly group. I believe according to the WT Abraham and all OT saints will not be in heaven, yet scriptures tells us otherwise. I wonder who is right scripture or WT? Peter tells us THE PROMISE is for you and your CHILDREN. You have never answered is THE PROMISE only for 144 thousand and their children?

Mt8:11 And I say unto you, That MANY SHALL COME FROM THE EAST AND WEST, AND shall SIT down WITH ABRAHAM, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, IN THE KIMGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Lk13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when YE SAHLL SEE ABRAHAM, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, AND ALL THE PROPHETS, IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and you yourselves thrust out.

Dj: (This covers everything that your many recent posts address. I simply cannot take the time to answer everything you have stated one comment at at time–I can see that you are truly compassionate about your beliefs and I admire your exaustive research too.)

JL: You know better and so do I, your statement is another smoke screen.

WOW i was reading the verses Dave put out to show that these supposed elect are the 144,000… this is truly a sad doctrine for if one reads these passages and scripture is GOD speaking to us all not to a selected few these passages are blessings for we are all called to be saints and be seperated from the world… we are all called to be children of GOD sons of GOD by adoption. if we are lead by the Spirit then we are all joint heirs with Christ… if we are not joint heirs then we are not led by the Spirit… there is no distinction… We must truly pray for the JW’s… Iin another thread a coupel SDA’s sound brilliant too in their way of how they are being mislead in to twisting scriptures… Dave and the JW’s are no different from the SDA’s… and Mormons and Iglesia ni Cristo etc… they all quote scripture and sound like some bible scholar but when put side by side with how the 1st century - 600 Ad Christians viewed the writings of scriptures, the JW’s SDA etc… teachings are all new!!! or recycled heresies…

We must really pray and pray the Rosary for their conversions… be prudent and have patience for them… like i just read in the Catechism.

i just read all of St Justin Marty’s writings from the book Faith of the Early Fathers by William Jurgens and cannot find one writing that disproves Jesus is not GOD… i would like to get the quote from Dave of the writing he has on St Justin Martyr - because if he and the JW’s read the writings in complete well there is no denial Justin taught Jesus is GOD from GOD begotten not made on in being with the father.

prudence and patience and love is all we can give these followers and pray and pray for them for it is the Holy Spirit and Him alone that can change their hearts…

 

[jlhargus]

[SIGN]jlhargus;6005021]CONTINUED:

JL: Malacahi 1:11 … from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be offered to my name AND A PURE OFFERING]

The prophecy of Malachi says Gentiles will offer incense and make a pure offering (sacrifice) to the Lord’s Name from the rising to setting of the sun in every place. That is fulfilled in the Catholic Church as that same once for all sacrifice of the cross is made present at Mass which is celebrated by priests in every parish daily in all places, the Orthodox Church has this same pure offering also. The OT offerings where clean but not pure only Christ our sacrifice is pure. [/SIGN]

Dj: The witness to Jehovah’s name and purpose must be given “throughout all the earth.” This is what was foretold by the prophet Malachi: “From the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles [nations]; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and** a pure offering**.” So the good news of Jehovah’s kingdom must be proclaimed far and wide! This is a work not to be done in a corner, but “in every place.” **The “incense” that is offered is, of course, not literal, but is “the odor of the knowledge” of Jehovah, which, the apostle said, must be diffused “in every place.” **2 Cor. 2:14-16…This great witness work was also foretold by Christ Jesus as being part of the sign of the “last days” of Satan’s world rule: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for the purpose of a witness to all the nations, and then the accomplished end will come.”—Mal. 1:11, AS; Matt. 24:14, NW.

JL: Tell me how can the witness to GOD’S NAME be accomplished using the FALSE NAME JEHOVAH? That is NOT God’s CORRECT NAME. Even the WT admits it’s not the correct name of God. Don’t you think the apostles would have at lest given us the correct name? Yet Jehovah is never found in the Greek NT, nor the writings of the early Fathers. We are NEVER told in the NT to be Jehovah’s Witnesses, but we are told to be WITNESSES of Jesus Christ, our Lord and God.

In fact the NT tells us in [Acts1:8 But YE SAHLL RECEIVE POWER, AFTER THAT the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and YE SHALL BE WITNESSES UNTO ME both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and UNTO THE UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH.] We are witnesses to What NAME? JESUS, our LORD and our GOD.

[Acts4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER: for THERE IS NONE OTHER NAME under heaven GIVEN AMONG MEN, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED.]

There is no OTHER NAME OF GOD, but the NAME JESUS CHRIST, given under heaven, by which we must be saved and of whom we are to be WITNESSES to the ends of the earth.

You would have thought if Jesus returned in 1874, then cancelled and changed to 1914, I guess he couldn’t make his appointment, set by the WT for 1874. So if Christ returned in 1914 as the WT NOW claims, without any evidence. Don’t you think he would have at lest corrected the spelling and pronunciation? Don’t you think he would have been correct on teachings, that so many would not have to be changed later? Don’t you think he would have been correct on so many dates for the end?

[Pastor Russell held closely to the Scriptures. He believed that Christ had been present since 1874. He also admitted in private to being that “Faithful and Wise Servant.” WT 12/1/1916].

Dj: **“a pure offering”…**we belive Malachi is speaking of the same thing that Paul does at Hebrews 13:15 (Knox), namely, the “sacrifice of praise, the tribute of lips that give thanks to his name” True Christians offer up spiritual sacrifices of praise, not flesh-and-blood sacrifices, as did the priests under the Mosaic law.—1 Pet. 2:5

JL: Yes True Christians, who have the indwelling Holy Spirit offer up spiritual sacrifices. As a Christian I exercise my priestly duty offering up spiritual sacrifices of praise, pray, sufferings, works and joys in union with A PURE OFFERING, CHRIST in the sacramental sacrifice of mass. The Pure Offering the Gentiles will offer everywhere on earth, just as Malachi’s prophecy foretold.

Dj: .“THE most perfect act of worship that can be made to God.” Thus the National Catholic Almanac (1951) describes the mass of the Roman Catholic Church. We further quote: “The Mass is the unbloody renewal of the Sacrifice of our Lord upon the cross. In it the priest, as the representative of Christ, offers to God the bread and wine, which he changes into the Body and Blood of our Lord at the Consecration, and then completes the sacrifice by consuming the Host and drinking the chalice at the Communion.” The mass, we are further assured, “is the perpetuation of the sacrifice of Calvary,” “is identical with the Sacrifice of the Cross.”

JL: Amen.

 

[jlhargus]

Dj: Did Christ institute a sacrificial arrangement back there or merely a memorial of his death? Rather the latter. In offering the bread and wine to his apostles, did he say: “Do this in sacrifice of me”? No, he said: “Do this for a commemoration of me.” (Luke 22:19, Dy) And if the wine was at that time actually his blood, then his blood would already have been shed. But he referred to its being shed as still in the future, “which SHALL BE shed for many.” That wine only represented but was not actually his blood. Further, had the wine been transubstantiated into his blood would he still have termed it the “fruit of the vine”?—Mark 14:23-25, Dy.

JL: Yes Christ instituted a MEMORIAL SACRIFICE of his death back there. No Jesus did not say, “Do this in sacrifice of me”. Jesus said DO this in memory of me.

By the way the lamb is no more a literal lamb than the 144 thousand are a literal number of individual persons. It’s a VISION Dj as you posted before. [Dj: “That was a *VISION. it was presented to John in SYMBOLS. Rev 1:1

Jesus was depicted that way in the VISION because it helps us to see who is being spoken of and helps us clarify a correct interpretation. He was no more a actual ‘slain’ image than there was a 7 headed beast and locusts with man’s faces. Rev 9:7 and 13:1 Ect.”] The WT logic doesn’t make sense does it? Sort of contradicting isn’t it? Is that unusual for the WT? No, not in my experience.]

[Rv 5:6 …in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN …] Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb the Bread of Life with his atoning blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies in the midst of the throne before God the Father mediating, [1Jn2:1 MY LITTLE CHILDREN, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And IF ANY MAN SIN, we have AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.], our propitiation for sins after baptism, bringing to remembrance and making present his once for all sacrifice of great mercy. Our PURE OFFERING, Jesus Christ, our living High Priest making intercession for us. That same once for all sacrifice of the cross. There is no re-sacrifice it is the same once done MADE PRESENT to us a living memorial sacrifice.

[Rv 5:6 And I beheld in the midst of the throne … stood a Lamb as it had been slain…

Hb 7: 17 …Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hb7:24 … this man…continues ever…an unchangeable priesthood 25 Wherefore he is able also to save … seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them. … Hb 8…We have such an high priest… 2 A minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle …3 … every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices wherefore **IT IS OF NECESSITY THAT THIS MAN HAVE SOMEWHAT ALSO TO OFFER 4 …priests that offer gifts according to the law 5 … serve to the EXAMPLE and SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS… … 6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry… MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT … Hb9:24 For Christ is not entered into the hoy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; BUT into HEAVEN itself, NOW TO APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US:]

Christ is not just sitting and watching events, he is our High Priest interceding for us with the Father, bringing to remembrance to the Father and to us that same once for all sacrifice of the lamb on the Cross which we eat at Mass, just as the Israelites ate their Passover lamb. [JN 6:55 My flesh IS meat indeed, my blood IS drink indeed.

Malacahi 1:11 …from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be offered to my name AND A PURE OFFERING] The prophecy of Malachi says Gentiles will offer incense and make a pure offering (sacrifice) to the Lord’s Name from the rising to setting of the sun in every place. That is fulfilled in the Catholic Church as that same once for all sacrifice of the cross is made present at Mass which is celebrated by priests in every parish daily in all places, the Orthodox Church has this same pure offering also… The OT offerings where clean but not pure only Christ our sacrifice is pure.

The fruit of the the Tree of Life=Cross our Passover Lamb is eaten at mass. [Hb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren THAT HE MIGHT BE a merciful and faithful HIGH PRIEST in things pertaining to God TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE 1Jn 2:2 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Hb9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; BUT THE HEAVENLY things themselves WITH BETTER SACRIFICES than these.] [Hb9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but THE HEAVENLY THINGS themselves WITH BETTER SACRIFICES than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now TO APPEAR in the presence of God FOR US:]

BETTER SACRIFICES, plural, because that once for all sacrifice of Christ is made sacramentally present to us each time mass is offered .

 

[jlhargus]

Dj: If actual transubstantiation takes place, from wine to bona fide blood, then why is the mass referred to as an “unbloody sacrifice”? It cannot be both, the actual flesh and blood and at the same time an unbloody sacrifice. Besides, if it is unbloody, then how can it have any sin-removing value, since Paul assures us that “without shedding of blood there is no remission”? (Heb. 9:22, Dy) For shedding Jesus’ literal blood the Jewish nation was held guilty before God and suffered severe punishment. (Matt. 21:33-46; 23:33-38; 27:25; Luke 23:28-31)

JL: It is unbloody because there is no death, the shed blood is on the alter. We receive the living body and blood of Christ.

[1Cor11:27 Wherefore WHOSOEVER SHALL EAT this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, UNWORTHILY, shall be GUILTY OF THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE LORD. 28 But **let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, NOT DISCERNING THE LORD’S BODY.] Notice the scripture tells us WHOSOEVER SHALL EAT, no mention of only 144 thousand can receive.

According to Paul there are only two ways here to discern. One either discerns it is the real body and blood of Christ, or one discerns it is not the real body and blood of Christ. We see some of the Corinthians did not discern the real body and blood of Christ. They were guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. You can’t be guilty of someone’s body and blood by a representation or symbol.

Also notice Paul doesn’t say the body and blood are ONLY for a special class of Christians that will number 144 thousand. Paul nor the scriptures ANYWHERE make any distinction. That is simply a tradition of man, never taught by Christ at anytime. Fact is you nor the WT are able to show any scriptural or historic evidence.

[JN 6:55 My flesh IS meat indeed, my blood IS drink indeed.] Jesus said it, Jesus did it.

Dj: The apostle Paul uses an expression in likening Jesus to a rock. After telling of the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt he states that they “all ate the same spiritual food [manna], and all drank the same spiritual drink (for they drank from the spiritual rock which followed them, but the rock WAS Christ)”. Was that rock from which the Israelites obtained water in the wilderness actually Christ, or did it mean, represent or stand for Christ? Then why insist that when Jesus used an identical expression he was referring to his actual body? Clearly by the words “this is my body”, “this is my blood,” Christ was not instituting a sacrifice of himself over and over—1 Cor. 10:1-4, Gotta run.

JL: No Christ was not instituting a sacrifice of himself over and over. That same once for all sacrifice of Christ is MADE PRESENT to us and the Father as a living memorial sacrifice. Did God miraculously provide the manna? Yes. Did God miraculously provide water from a rock? Yes. Does God miraculously provide his body, blood, soul and divinity as bread and wine? Yes, praise God.

[Jn6:53 Then JESUS SAID unto them, VERILY, VERILY, I say unto you, EXCEPT YE EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON man, AND DRINK HIS BLOOD, ye have NO LIFE IN YOU. 54 WHOSO EATETH my flesh, and drinketh my blood, HATH ETERNAL LIFE; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.]

Notice Christ says WHO EVER EATS, he did not say only a 144 thousand can eat, did he? Hb7:25 Wherefore HE IS ABLE also TO SAVE THEM to the uttermost THAT COME UNTO GOD BY HIM, seeing HE EVER LIVETH TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR THEM.] Wake up Dj, read the scriptures. I would bet you have never even so much as read one book of even the NT from beginning to end. All you know is the cherry picking verses the WT feeds you. Why do you think they don’t want JWs reading the bible on their own or in groups?

[Hb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren THAT HE MIGHT BE a merciful and faithful HIGH PRIEST in things pertaining to God TO MAKE RECONCILIATION **FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE]

[1Jn 2:2 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.] Christ died for the WHOLE WORLD. All those who BELIEVE, REPENT, are BAPTIZED, for REMISSION OF SINS, and RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.]

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED FROM POST 449: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…&postcount=449

Think about this…

Jesus certainly had to materialize clothing in which to appear, for the clothes he had on before he was impaled were divided among the soldiers and they cast lots over his seamless inner garment; and the bandages in which his corpse had been wrapped and the cloth that had been upon his head were left in the sepulcher. (John 19:23, 24; 20:5-7) If the resurrected Jesus could materialize new clothing, could he not also materialize new suitable bodies in order to appear and then dematerialize instead of spiritualize them? Yes!

JL: Jesus could have done anything he wanted even before he died and certainly after he rose. He didn’t NEED to materialize clothing OR bodies, in which to appear, He overcame the world, he was bodily raised, he is clothed with heavenly garments.

[Rv3:5 HE WHO OVERCOMES WILL, like them, BE DRESSED IN WHITE.]

[Rv4:4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were DRESSED IN WHITE and had crowns of gold on their heads.]

[Rv6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar THE SOULS OF THEM SLAIN for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And WHITE ROBES WERE GIVEN UNTO EVERY ONE OF THEM;]

We see in scripture the souls in heaven, of the bodily dead, are clothed, with heavenly garments given them by God. When their body is resurrected, and once again united to their soul, they will still be clothed with those heavenly white robes, which are their righteous deeds.

[Rv19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for THE FINE LINEN IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF SAINTS.]

Notice those robes don’t slide off the elders or martyrs do they? They are clothed with heavenly garments, given by God, suited for a transformed heavenly soul and body.

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