Is Jesus God?

[dj_dave]

jlhar[SIGN]gus;
…Really show me where the scriptures teachs that scripture applies MOSTLY to only144K people? Well as I said the last time you posted those, book & verse only scriptures, give me evidence that they apply only to a 144 thoursand. ** Not one of them EVER refers to a 144 thousand, but to all God’s people. ** I challenge you to post any of your above scriptures not just book&verse and show where and how any of them apply to 144k. That is simply a tradition of men and nothing more[/SIGN]

Actually Paul along with the others did not know the final number because it was not revealed until the last Apostle John was given the vision–long after Paul, Peter and the others were gone.Rev 7:4 ; Rev. 14:1…they only knew of themselves as a “little Flock” Luke 12:32

[SIGN]… I believe according to the WT Abraham and all OT saints will not be in heaven, yet scriptures tells us otherwise. I wonder who is right scripture or WT? Peter tells us THE PROMISE is for you and your CHILDREN. You have never answered is THE PROMISE only for 144 thousand and their children?

Mt8:11 And I say unto you, That MANY SHALL COME FROM THE EAST AND WEST, AND shall SIT down WITH ABRAHAM, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, IN THE KIMGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Lk13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when YE SAHLL SEE ABRAHAM, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, AND ALL THE PROPHETS, IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and you yourselves thrust out. [/SIGN]

The prophets often used “Jacob” in a figurative sense, with reference to the nation descended from the patriarch. (Isa 9:8; 27:9; Jer 10:25; Eze 39:25; Am 6:8; Mic 1:5; Ro 11:26) Jesus, on this occasion, Jesus was using the name Jacob figuratively when speaking of those who would be “in the kingdom of the heavens.”—Mt 8:11.

Abraham had come out of Ur of the Chaldeans, and he did not want that city any more. He and his son Isaac and grandson Jacob wanted a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven, a city government, namely, the government or city that God has prepared and in which the promised Seed or Offspring of Abraham will be God’s King. This is the “kingdom of God,” or “the kingdom of the heavens,” as these two expressions are interchangeable, the expression “the heavens” having reference to God. Under that kingdom of the heavens or kingdom of God Abraham, Isaac and Jacob expected to live on earth.

In the year 30 (A.D.) Jesus told Nicodemus that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not in heaven. (John 3:13) Three years later, on the day of Pentecost of the year 33, the apostle Peter said that the descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, namely, King David, had not ascended to heaven and so was not in any kingdom of the heavens or kingdom of God. (Acts 2:34) Peter said that after Jesus made the statement about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in Matthew 8:11 at the time of healing the servant of a Roman centurion.
Hence those three patriarchs could not be in the Kingdom class as joint heirs with the Lord Jesus Christ. They were his ancestors, who preceded him by more than seventeen hundred years.

It is therefore evident that in Matthew 8:11 Jesus referred to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob figuratively. On the occasion when Abraham offered up his son Isaac, Abraham represented Jehovah God and Isaac represented God’s only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, who was offered up in sacrifice. Accordingly Jacob represented the spiritual Christian congregation, the “kingdom of the heavens” class; for, just as the congregation gets life through Jesus Christ, so Jacob got life from Abraham through Isaac. From this standpoint Abraham, Isaac and Jacob mentioned together in Jesus’ illustration would picture the great theocratic government, in which Jehovah is the Great Theocrat, Jesus Christ is his anointed representative King, and the faithful, victorious Christian congregation of 144,000 members is the body of Christ’s joint heirs in the Kingdom.

When the Christian congregation was founded on the day of Pentecost, its spirit-anointed members were made Christ’s joint heirs and were put in line for a place in the heavenly kingdom, to recline there at the spiritual table with the Greater Abraham and the Greater Isaac. The natural or fleshly Jews of the nation of Israel claimed to be the “sons of the kingdom” or the prospective members of God’s kingdom. From the day of Pentecost forward they saw the beginning and the gradual development of this theocratic arrangement, but because of their lack of faith in Christ they were not in it. Hence, as Jesus said (Matt. 8:12): “The sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.”
For this reason it became necessary that many Gentiles (non-Jews), like the Roman centurion whose faith brought a miraculous cure by Jesus, should come “from eastern parts and western parts,” from all around the earth, to become dedicated, baptized Christians. Thus they could help make up the full number of the Kingdom class. For faithfulness to the death these converted Gentiles are resurrected to heavenly life to recline at the heavenly table, as it were, with Jehovah God and Jesus Christ “in the kingdom of the heavens.”

When understood this way, Matthew 8:11 agrees with Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:11: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” Since Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not greater than John, they will not be literally in the kingdom of the heavens. Jesus used them only as an illustration of those who will actually be in it.

That is the way we understand this . Accept it or reject it. I am only explaining and defending our beliefs to all who read this. I am not trying to ‘force’ anyone to beieve it.

Next…your citation of…

Rv21:1 And I saw A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH:

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]dj dave;

That is the way we understand this . Accept it or reject it. I am only explaining and defending our beliefs to all who read this. I am not trying to ‘force’ anyone to beieve it.

Next…your citation of…

[SIGN]*Rv21:1 And I saw A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH:

Rv21:1 And I saw A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for THE FIRST HEAVEN and THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea. 2 And I JOHN SAW THE holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, COMING DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared AS A BRIDE adorned for her husband. 3
Rv21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and SHOWED ME THE HOLY CITY, JERUSALEM, COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.*[/SIGN]

Notice closely, (Revelation 21:9-11) . . .And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls which were full of the seven last plagues, and he spoke with me and said: “Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God 11 and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, as a jasper stone shining crystal-clear.

Where is the Bride?

We believe the Bride is “The New Jerusalem” Compare “pillar” in Rev 3:12

[SIGN]A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for THE FIRST HEAVEN and THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY…[/SIGN]

These are not a literal new heavens and earth. The Bible makes it plain that the current earth and heavens will last forever Ps 78:69; Eccl. 1:4; Ps 104:5; Ps 89:36,37…just like the ‘sea’ at Isa. 57:20 (Isaiah 57:20) . . .“*But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire. * . . .these are symbolic expressions.

The term “heavens” can also refer to other ruling powers that are exalted or lifted up above their subject peoples. The very dynasty of Babylonian kings that Nebuchadnezzar represented is described at Isaiah 14:12 as being starlike, a “shining one, son of the dawn.” By the conquest of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., that Babylonian dynasty lifted its throne “above the stars of God,” these “stars” evidently referring to the Davidic line of Judean kings (even as the Heir to the Davidic throne, Christ Jesus, is called “the bright morning star” at Re 22:16; compare Nu 24:17). By its overthrow of the divinely authorized Davidic throne, the Babylonian dynasty, in effect, exalted itself heaven high. (Isa 14:13, 14) This lofty grandeur and far-reaching dominion were also represented in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream by a symbolic tree with its height ‘reaching the heavens.’—Da 4:20-22.

. The connection of the “heavens” with ruling power aids in understanding the meaning of the expression “new heavens and a new earth” found at Isaiah 65:17; 66:22 and quoted by the apostle Peter at 2 Peter 3:13. Observing such relationship, M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: “In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.”
Even as the “earth” can refer to a society of people (Ps 96:1), so, too, “heavens” can symbolize the superior ruling power or government over such “earth.” The prophecy presenting the promise of “new heavens and a new earth,” given through Isaiah, was one dealing initially with the restoration of Israel from Babylonian exile.

Upon the Israelites’ return to their homeland, they entered into a new system of things. Cyrus the Great was used prominently by God in bringing about that restoration. Back in Jerusalem, Zerubbabel (a descendant of David) served as governor, and Joshua as high priest. In harmony with Jehovah’s purpose, this new governmental arrangement, or “new heavens,” directed and supervised the subject people. (2Ch 36:23; Hag 1:1, 14) Thereby, as verse 18 of Isaiah chapter 65 foretold, Jerusalem became “a cause for joyfulness and her people a cause for exultation.”

Peter’s quotation, however, shows that a future fulfillment was to be anticipated, on the basis of God’s promise. (2Pe 3:13) Since God’s promise in this case relates to the presence of Christ Jesus, as shown at verse 4, the “new heavens and a new earth” must relate to God’s Messianic Kingdom and its rule over obedient subjects. By his resurrection and ascension to God’s right hand, Christ Jesus became “higher than the heavens” (Heb 7:26) in that he was thereby placed “far above every government and authority and power and lordship . . . not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”—Eph 1:19-21; Mt 28:18.

Christian followers of Jesus, as “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1), are assigned by God as “heirs” in union with Christ, through whom God purposed “to gather all things together again.” “The things in the heavens,” that is, those called to heavenly life, are the first to be thus gathered into unity with God through Christ. (Eph 1:8-11) Their inheritance is “reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4; Col 1:5; compare Joh 14:2, 3.) They are “enrolled” and have their “citizenship” in the heavens. (Heb 12:20-23; Php 3:20)

Cont.

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]dj dave;

Christian followers of Jesus, as “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1), are assigned by God as “heirs” in union with Christ, through whom God purposed “to gather all things together again.” “The things in the heavens,” that is, those called to heavenly life, are the first to be thus gathered into unity with God through Christ. (Eph 1:8-11) Their inheritance is “reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4; Col 1:5; compare Joh 14:2, 3.) They are “enrolled” and have their “citizenship” in the heavens. (Heb 12:20-23; Php 3:20)

Cont.[/SIGN]

As I have stated, They form the “New Jerusalem” seen in John’s vision as “coming down out of heaven from God.” (Re 21:2, 9, 10; compare Eph 5:24-27.) Since this vision is initially stated to be of “a new heaven and a new earth” (Re 21:1), it follows that both are represented in what is thereafter described. Hence the “new heaven” must correspond to Christ together with his “bride,” the “New Jerusalem,” and the “new earth” is seen in the ‘peoples of mankind’ who are their subjects and who receive the blessings of their rule, as depicted in verses 3 and 4.

But what about Passing away of former heaven and earth? John’s vision refers to the passing away of “the former heaven and the former earth.” (Re 21:1; compare 20:11.) In the Christian Greek Scriptures, earthly governments and their peoples are shown to be subject to Satanic rule. (Mt 4:8, 9; Joh 12:31; 2Co 4:3, 4; Re 12:9; 16:13, 14) The apostle Paul referred to “the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places,” with their governments, authorities, and world rulers. (Eph 6:12) So the passing away of “the former heaven” indicates the end of political governments along with Satan and his demons. This identification of “the former heaven” harmonizes with the fact that shortly before the statement concerning the ‘former heaven having passed away,’ John had seen a vision of the complete defeat of Satan’s forces and the casting of Satan into “the abyss.” (Re 19:19–20:3) The earthly subjects of Satan’s rule are destroyed prior to his abyssing, as shown at Revelation 19:17, 18. (Compare 1Jo 2:15-17.) The description of a fiery destruction of heaven and earth at 2 Peter 3:7-12 corresponds to the visions in Revelation.

NOTICE ALSO, Because the heavens represent that which is elevated, the abasement of those things that are exalted is at times represented by the overthrow or the ‘rocking’ or ‘agitating’ of the heavens. Jehovah is said to have “thrown down from heaven to earth the beauty of Israel” at the time of its desolation. That beauty included its kingdom and princely rulers and their power, and such beauty was devoured as by fire. (La 2:1-3) But Israel’s conqueror, Babylon, later experienced an agitation of her own “heaven” and a rocking of her “earth” when the Medes and Persians overthrew Babylon and her heavenly gods proved false and unable to save her from the loss of her dominion over the land.—Isa 13:1, 10-13.

Similarly, it was prophesied that the heaven-high position of Edom would not save her from destruction and that Jehovah’s sword of judgment would be drenched in her heights, or “heavens,” with no help for her from any heavenly, or exalted, source. (Isa 34:4-7; compare Ob 1-4, 8.) Those making great boasts, wickedly speaking in an elevated style as if to “put their mouth in the very heavens,” are certain to fall to ruin. (Ps 73:8, 9, 18; compare Re 13:5, 6.) The city of Capernaum had reason to feel highly favored because of the attention it received by Jesus and his ministry. However, since it failed to respond to his powerful works, Jesus asked, “Will you perhaps be exalted to heaven?” and foretold instead, “Down to Hades you will come.”—Mt 11:23.

Again, this is how we understand these things.

PS. Notice too how everyone rejoiced when Satan is cast out of Heaven…WHY would they need to create a “New Heavens”? Rev 12:9-12…so, what will make it a “new eath”? Ps 37:10,11,29
(Psalm 37:10-11) And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

see also Pr 2:21,22

but what about —Luke 21:33, Jesus says that “heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.” ? …and other scriptures like it?

Cont.

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]dj dave;

Christian followers of Jesus, as “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1), are assigned by God as “heirs” in union with Christ, through whom God purposed “to gather all things together again.” “The things in the heavens,” that is, those called to heavenly life, are the first to be thus gathered into unity with God through Christ. (Eph 1:8-11) Their inheritance is “reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4; Col 1:5; compare Joh 14:2, 3.) They are “enrolled” and have their “citizenship” in the heavens. (Heb 12:20-23; Php 3:20)

Cont.[/SIGN]

As I have stated, They form the “New Jerusalem” seen in John’s vision as “coming down out of heaven from God.” (Re 21:2, 9, 10; compare Eph 5:24-27.) Since this vision is initially stated to be of “a new heaven and a new earth” (Re 21:1), it follows that both are represented in what is thereafter described. Hence the “new heaven” must correspond to Christ together with his “bride,” the “New Jerusalem,” and the “new earth” is seen in the ‘peoples of mankind’ who are their subjects and who receive the blessings of their rule, as depicted in verses 3 and 4.

But what about Passing away of former heaven and earth? John’s vision refers to the passing away of “the former heaven and the former earth.” (Re 21:1; compare 20:11.) In the Christian Greek Scriptures, earthly governments and their peoples are shown to be subject to Satanic rule. (Mt 4:8, 9; Joh 12:31; 2Co 4:3, 4; Re 12:9; 16:13, 14) The apostle Paul referred to “the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places,” with their governments, authorities, and world rulers. (Eph 6:12) So the passing away of “the former heaven” indicates the end of political governments along with Satan and his demons. This identification of “the former heaven” harmonizes with the fact that shortly before the statement concerning the ‘former heaven having passed away,’ John had seen a vision of the complete defeat of Satan’s forces and the casting of Satan into “the abyss.” (Re 19:19–20:3) The earthly subjects of Satan’s rule are destroyed prior to his abyssing, as shown at Revelation 19:17, 18. (Compare 1Jo 2:15-17.) The description of a fiery destruction of heaven and earth at 2 Peter 3:7-12 corresponds to the visions in Revelation.

NOTICE ALSO, Because the heavens represent that which is elevated, the abasement of those things that are exalted is at times represented by the overthrow or the ‘rocking’ or ‘agitating’ of the heavens. Jehovah is said to have “thrown down from heaven to earth the beauty of Israel” at the time of its desolation. That beauty included its kingdom and princely rulers and their power, and such beauty was devoured as by fire. (La 2:1-3) But Israel’s conqueror, Babylon, later experienced an agitation of her own “heaven” and a rocking of her “earth” when the Medes and Persians overthrew Babylon and her heavenly gods proved false and unable to save her from the loss of her dominion over the land.—Isa 13:1, 10-13.

Similarly, it was prophesied that the heaven-high position of Edom would not save her from destruction and that Jehovah’s sword of judgment would be drenched in her heights, or “heavens,” with no help for her from any heavenly, or exalted, source. (Isa 34:4-7; compare Ob 1-4, 8.) Those making great boasts, wickedly speaking in an elevated style as if to “put their mouth in the very heavens,” are certain to fall to ruin. (Ps 73:8, 9, 18; compare Re 13:5, 6.) The city of Capernaum had reason to feel highly favored because of the attention it received by Jesus and his ministry. However, since it failed to respond to his powerful works, Jesus asked, “Will you perhaps be exalted to heaven?” and foretold instead, “Down to Hades you will come.”—Mt 11:23.

Again, this is how we understand these things.

PS. Notice too how everyone rejoiced when Satan is cast out of Heaven…WHY would they need to create a “New Heavens”? Rev 12:9-12…so, what will make it a “new earth”? Ps 37:10,11,29
(Psalm 37:10-11) And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

see also Pr 2:21,22

but what about —Luke 21:33, Jesus says that “heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.” ? …and other scriptures like it?

Cont.

 

[dj_dave]

dj dave;

Eliphaz the Temanite said of God: “Look! In his holy ones he has no faith, and the heavens themselves are actually not clean in his eyes.” However, Jehovah said to Eliphaz that he and his two companions had “not spoken concerning me what is truthful as has my servant Job.” (Job 15:1, 15; 42:7) By contrast, Exodus 24:10 refers to the heavens as representing purity. Thus there is no cause stated in the Bible for God’s destroying the physical heavens.

That the physical heavens are permanent is shown by the fact that they are used in similes relating to things that are everlasting, such as the peaceful, righteous results of the Davidic kingdom inherited by God’s Son. (Ps 72:5-7; Lu 1:32, 33) Thus, texts such as Psalm 102:25, 26 that speak of the heavens as ‘perishing’ and as ‘being replaced like a worn-out garment’ are not to be understood in a literal sense.

**At Luke 21:33, Jesus says that “heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.” **The sense of this expression seems to be like that of Matthew 5:18: “Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away [or, “it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away”; Lu 16:17] than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place.”

Psalm 102:25-27 stresses God’s eternity and imperishability, whereas his physical creation of heavens and earth is perishable, that is, it could be destroyed—if such were God’s purpose. Unlike God’s eternal existence, the permanence of any part of his physical creation is not independent. As seen in the earth, the physical creation must undergo a continual renewing process if it is to endure or retain its existing form. That the physical heavens are dependent on God’s will and sustaining power is indicated at Psalm 148, where, after referring to sun, moon, and stars, along with other parts of God’s creation, verse 6 states that God “keeps them standing forever, to time indefinite. A regulation he has given, and it will not pass away.”

The words of Psalm 102:25, 26 apply to Jehovah God, but the apostle Paul quotes them with reference to Jesus Christ. This is because God’s only-begotten Son was God’s personal Agent employed in creating the physical universe. Paul contrasts the Son’s permanence with that of the physical creation, which God, if he so designed, could ‘wrap up just as a cloak’ and set aside.—Heb 1:1, 2, 8, 10-12; compare 1Pe 2:3, ftn.

So, this is the way we see these things.

Gotta run… Back in a couple of days.

 

[dj_dave]

As you stated…"they will still be clothed with those heavenly white robes, which are their righteous deeds."

The clothes are not literal

The fact that some have “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” indicates that they have recognized their need of the sin-atoning merit of Jesus’ sacrifice as the Lamb of God. (John 1:29; 1 John 2:2) In faith they have dedicated themselves to God on the basis of that sacrifice, have symbolized this by water immersion and now enjoy a clean standing before God, as pictured by their white robes. They have not held back from publicly making known their faith in God’s Son. (Matt. 10:32, 33) Consistent with all of this, they are shown as being in God’s temple, or universal house of worship, as worshipers who render to God “sacred service day and night.” Thus they have made a record as loyal supporters of true worship and proclaimers of his Kingdom.—Isa. 2:2,

Jehovah portrays Jerusalem as once figuratively attired by him in beautiful garments. But she trusted in her prettiness and consorted with the pagan nations, decking herself out to be attractive, as a prostitute.—Eze 16:10-14; see also Eze 23:26, 27; Jer 4:30, 31.
Clothing is used symbolically in many Bible passages. Jehovah portrays himself as clothed with dignity, splendor, eminence, light, righteousness, zeal, and vengeance. (Ps 93:1; 104:1, 2; Isa 59:17) He is said to clothe his people in garments of righteousness and salvation. (Ps 132:9; Isa 61:10) His enemies will be clothed with shame and humiliation. (Ps 35:26) Paul commands Christians to strip off the old personality and to clothe themselves with the new personality, some of the features of which are the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, long-suffering, and, especially, love.—Col 3:9-14.

Many other symbolic references are made to clothing. Just as a uniform or special attire identifies one as belonging to a certain organization or supporting a certain movement, so clothing, as used symbolically in the Bible, indicates the identification of a person by the stand he takes and his activities in harmony with it, as in the case of Jesus’ illustration of the marriage garment. (Mt 22:11, 12; At Revelation 16:14, 15, the Lord Jesus Christ warns against falling asleep spiritually and being stripped of one’s identity as a faithful witness of the true God. This could be disastrous on the eve of “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.”

 

[jlhargus]

JL: [SIGN]gus;
…Really show me where the scriptures teach that scripture applies MOSTLY to only144K people? Well as I said the last time you posted those, book & verse only scriptures, give me evidence that they apply only to a 144 thoursand. ** Not one of them EVER refers to a 144 thousand, but to all God’s people. ** I challenge you to post any of your above scriptures not just book&verse and show where and how any of them apply to 144k. That is simply a tradition of men and nothing more[/SIGN]

Dj: Actually Paul along with the others did not know the final number because it was not revealed until the last Apostle John was given the vision–long after Paul, Peter and the others were gone.Rev 7:4 ; Rev. 14:1…they only knew of themselves as a “little Flock” Luke 12:32

JL: Perhaps you believe that, but it is total nonsense. In other words the WT is telling us the apostles, except for John, did not receive God’s complete revelation regarding salvation. To teach such is to preach another gospel. Paul tells us in [Gal1:8 But THOUGH WE, or an angel from heaven, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you THAN that which WE **HAVE PREACHED unto you, LET HIM BE ACCURSED.] To claim John taught another gospel is the height of arrogance. Do you suppose Christ just forgot to tell the others? Tell me can you show me evidence any early Fathers taugh TWO classes of Christians AFTER John wrote Revealaion?

Jude1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of THE COMMON SALVATION, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was ONCE DELIVERED unto the saints.

Funny when anyone interprets a VISION with a literal meaning, JWs respond with their old smoke screen, “IT’S A VISION”, or “IT’S SYMBOLIC” implying a VISION can never be interpreted with a literal sense. Yet when it comes to any verse in Revelation of 144 thousand those particular verses ALONE are literal, anything before or after, IT’S A VISION. Why the contradiction?

[Rv7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand **OF ALL THE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.]

Rv7 goes on to name every tribe of Israel with its 12 thousand. You have never answered my question. How can 12 thousand SYMBOLIC PERSONS times 12 thousand SYMBOLIC PERSONS equal 144 thousand LITERAL PERSONS?

It can’t, it doesn’t and the WT can produce NO scripture or historic evidence to show otherwise. The 144 thousand and great crowd classes were made up by the President of the WT Rutherford in 1935. to cover for the fact there were to many JWs. At 60 plus thousand, which would leave only a little over half of the 144 thousand as early Christians. The WT had expected the end to have come long before 1935, SEVERAL times in fact.

A way had to be devised to allow for growth and still maintain 144 thousand as a literal number.

Therefore no more communion or heaven for those born after 1935. There is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE for two classes of Christians, a heavenly and an earthly class. As far as the doors of heaven being closed in 1935, if it wasn’t so serious it would be laughable. The WT doesn’t even try to defend 1935 as they have nothing to stand on, but LIGHT JUST FLASHED UP. I would call that a false prophesy. It reminds me of Mt23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

[Eph4:4 There is ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in ONE HOPE of your calling; 5 ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, **ONE BAPTISM, 6 ONE GOD and Father of all, WHO IS above all, and through all, and IN YOU ALL.] Notice one baptism, one God IN you all. Just as Peter tells us in Acts2:38-39 repent, be baptized for remission of sins and receive the Holy Spirit.

JL: [SIGN]… I believe according to the WT Abraham and all OT saints will not be in heaven, yet scriptures tells us otherwise. I wonder who is right scripture or WT? Peter tells us THE PROMISE is for you and your CHILDREN. You have never answered is THE PROMISE only for 144 thousand and their children?

Mt8:11 And I say unto you, That MANY SHALL COME FROM THE EAST AND WEST, AND shall SIT down WITH ABRAHAM, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, IN THE KIMGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Lk13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when YE SAHLL SEE ABRAHAM, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, AND ALL THE PROPHETS, IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and you yourselves thrust out. [/SIGN]

Dj: The prophets often used “Jacob” in a figurative sense, with reference to the nation descended from the patriarch. (Isa 9:8; 27:9; Jer 10:25; Eze 39:25; Am 6:8; Mic 1:5; Ro 11:26) Jesus, on this occasion, Jesus was using the name Jacob figuratively when speaking of those who would be “in the kingdom of the heavens.”—Mt 8:11.

JL: Even if the WT fable were correct on JACOB, which it IS NOT. That would still leave Abraham and Isaac. I notice you post NO evidence just a statement with book&verse. Why? don’t those verses prove your point? SHOW me don’t tell me. We both know YOU CAN’T can you?

 

[jlhargus]

Dj: Abraham had come out of Ur of the Chaldeans, and he did not want that city any more. He and his son Isaac and grandson Jacob wanted a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven, a city government, namely, the government or city that God has prepared and in which the promised Seed or Offspring of Abraham will be God’s King. This is the “kingdom of God,” or “the kingdom of the heavens,” as these two expressions are interchangeable, the expression “the heavens” having reference to God. Under that kingdom of the heavens or kingdom of God Abraham, Isaac and Jacob expected to live on earth.

JL: Give me a break Dj, this is nothing but another WT fable. Abraham left Ur and his father and relatives, out of faith and obedience to God, who ask him to leave, not because HE DID NOT WANT THAT CITY ANY MORE. [Gn12:1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you.] In case you don’t know Abram is Abraham, God changed his name.

Read Hb11:1-Hb12:1-28 Paul is talking about a great crowd of witnesses. He starts with Abel etc. and goes on in Hb11:13.

[Hb11:13 THESE ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT having RECEIVED THE PROMISES, but HAVING SEEN THEM AFAR OFF, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, AND CONFESSED that THEY WERE **STRANGERS and PILGRIMS ON THE EARTH. 14 For THEY that say such things DECLARE PLAINLY that THEY SEEK A COUNTRY. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now THEY DESIRE A BETTER COUNTRY, that is, AN HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for HE HATH PREPARED FOR THEM A CITY.] I couldn’t help notice the WT didn’t even give Hb book&verse. Why? Could it be they did not even want JWs to read Hb 11-12?

Rv21:1 And I saw A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for THE FIRST HEAVEN and THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea. 2 And I JOHN SAW THE holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, COMING DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared AS A BRIDE adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, and HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and GOD HIMSELF SHALL BE WITH THEM, and be their God.

Rv21:22 And I SAW NO TEMPLE THEREIN: for THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY AND THE LAMB ARE THE TEMPLE OF IT. 23 And THE CITY HAD NO NEED OF THE SUN, neither of THE MOON, TO SHINE in it: for THE GLORY OF GOD DID LIGHTEN IT, and THE LAMB IS THE LIGHT THEREOF. 24 And THE NATIONS of them which are SAVED SHALLWALK IN THE LIGHT OF IT: and THE KINGS OF THE EARTH DO BRING THEIR GLORY AND HONOUR INTO IT. 25 And THE GATES of it SHALL NOT BE SHUT AT ALL by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And THEY SHALL BRING THE GLORY AND HONOUR OF THE NATIONS** INTO IT**.

 

[jlhargus]

Dj: In the year 30 (A.D.) Jesus told Nicodemus that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not in heaven. (John 3:13) Three years later, on the day of Pentecost of the year 33, the apostle Peter said that the descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, namely, King David, had not ascended to heaven and so was not in any kingdom of the heavens or kingdom of God. (Acts 2:34) Peter said that after Jesus made the statement about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in Matthew 8:11 at the time of healing the servant of a Roman centurion. Hence those three patriarchs could not be in the Kingdom class as joint heirs with the Lord Jesus Christ. They were his ancestors, who preceded him by more than seventeen hundred years.

JL: Of course Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not in heaven, when Christ was speaking. No one went to heaven before Christ.

[Hb10:1 THE LAW is only A SHADOW of the good things that are coming—NOT THE REALITIES THEMSELVES. For this reason it CAN NEVER, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, MAKE PERFECT those who draw near to worship. …2…3… 4 because IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for the BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS to TAKE AWAY SINS.] No one went to heaven before the resurrection and ascension of our Lord. Because only the atoning blood of Christ can take away sin and make just men perfect. All spirits=disembodied=souls, just or unjust, were captives in Sheol=Hades=Hell, before the ascension. They went to one of the chambers of Sheol=Hades=Hell, before the resurrection and ascension of our Lord, who opened heaven for the just spirits when he descended to Hell, Hades, Sheol and preached to them, [1Pt3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, THAT HE MIGHT BRING US TO GOD, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;], & 1[Pt 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.]

When he ascended, he led a host of captives, the OT great cloud of witnesses [Hb11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT. Hb12:1 Wherefore SEEING WE ALSO ARE COMPASSED ABOUT WITH SO GREAT A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,] [Acts1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a CLOUD hid him from their sight.] Christ took the JUST spirits, disembodied, souls, in the paradise chamber of Sheol=Hades=Hell into heaven, now made perfect by the blood of Christ, which cleanses and takes away sin

[Eph 4:8…WHEN HE ASCENDED on high HE LED A HOST OF CAPTIVES,… Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and THE SPIRIT SHALL RETURN UNTO GOD who gave it.] The body=dust returns to the earth and the spirit=soul goes back to God who gave it, for immediate personal judgement. [Hb 9:27 as it is appointed for men TO DIE ONCE AND AFTER that comes JUDGMENT. Hb12:22 But YOU HAVE COME TO MOUNT ZION Zion…the CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM,…23 … TO A JUDGE who is GOD of all, AND the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT… ]

We know from Eccl 12:7 all spirits return to God who gave it. After the ascention we see in Hb9:23, the spirits of just men made perfect, with our Lord in heaven, the evil spirits are still in Sheol, Hades, Hell, the chamber of torment until the resurrection. After the last judgement at the end of the age Sheol, Hades, Hell AND DEATH, along with demons and evil human beings, body and soul, will be cast alive into the lake of fire.

Dj: It is therefore evident that in Matthew 8:11 Jesus referred to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob figuratively. On the occasion when Abraham offered up his son Isaac, Abraham represented Jehovah God and Isaac represented God’s only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, who was offered up in sacrifice. Accordingly Jacob represented the spiritual Christian congregation, the “kingdom of the heavens” class; for, just as the congregation gets life through Jesus Christ, so Jacob got life from Abraham through Isaac. From this standpoint Abraham, Isaac and Jacob mentioned together in Jesus’ illustration would picture the great theocratic government, in which Jehovah is the Great Theocrat, Jesus Christ is his anointed representative King, and the faithful, victorious Christian congregation of 144,000 members is the body of Christ’s joint heirs in the Kingdom.

JL: Well that is quite a tail and that’s ALL IT IS a made up TAIL. Another gospel, I might add, which NO ONE ever heard of till 1935. Have you noticed Dj, there is absolutely NO evidence in your above paragraph. I am amazed you are unable to see there is NOTHING there, but an empty statement. You evidently don’t read the WT canned remarks before you post them, and you certainly have never read the scriptures. There is nothing more to your post than an empty WT statement. I will repeat myself, with my post, with which you began your post:

[Really SHOW ME where the scriptures teach, scripture applies MOSTLY to only144K people? Well as I said the last time you posted those, book & verse only scriptures, give me evidence that they apply only to a 144 thousand. Not one of them EVER refers to a 144 thousand, but to all God’s people. ** I challenge you to post any of your above scriptures not just book&verse and show where and how any of them apply to 144k. That is simply a tradition of men and nothing more.] You have still shown no scriptural or historic evidence whatsoever and I will add YOU CANNOT.

 

[jlhargus]

Dj: When the Christian congregation was founded on the day of Pentecost, its spirit-anointed members were made Christ’s joint heirs and were put in line for a place in the heavenly kingdom, to recline there at the spiritual table with the Greater Abraham and the Greater Isaac. The natural or fleshly Jews of the nation of Israel claimed to be the “sons of the kingdom” or the prospective members of God’s kingdom. From the day of Pentecost forward they saw the beginning and the gradual development of this theocratic arrangement, but because of their lack of faith in Christ they were not in it. Hence, as Jesus said (Matt. 8:12): “The sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.”

For this reason it became necessary that many Gentiles (non-Jews), like the Roman centurion whose faith brought a miraculous cure by Jesus, should come “from eastern parts and western parts,” from all around the earth, to become dedicated, baptized Christians. Thus they could help make up the full number of the Kingdom class. For faithfulness to the death these converted Gentiles are resurrected to heavenly life to recline at the heavenly table, as it were, with Jehovah God and Jesus Christ “in the kingdom of the heavens.”

When understood this way, Matthew 8:11 agrees with Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:11: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” Since Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not greater than John, they will not be literally in the kingdom of the heavens. Jesus used them only as an illustration of those who will actually be in it.

That is the way we understand this . Accept it or reject it. I am only explaining and defending our beliefs to all who read this. I am not trying to ‘force’ anyone to beieve it.

JL: I reject WT traditions of men made doctrines of God. Good grief another fable. Can’t you see Dj, why the WT doesn’t want JWs reading the bible, alone or in small groups? Their fables are contrary to scripture

Mt8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. … Hb8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, AND SHALL SIT WITH ABRAHAM, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. …

[Hb8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.] Most will be cast out, but a remnant will be saved. The symoblic number of 144 thousand represents the remnant of Israel who will be saved. And Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will certainly be in that remnant, WITH WHOM the great crowd from east and west shall sit in the kingdom of heaven.

I am totally dumbfounded by the total lack of evidence the WT provides with their statements. It seems to be a weaving of half trues added to a total fabrication, with a book&verse added to make it seem the bible supports their fabricated tails. Sorry if I sound uncharitable at times, I do sincerely pray for you and all JWs.

 

[jlhargus]

[SIGN]* JL: Rv21:1 And I saw A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for THE FIRST HEAVEN and THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea. 2 And I JOHN SAW THE holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, COMING DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared AS A BRIDE adorned for her husband. 3

Rv21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and SHOWED ME THE HOLY CITY, JERUSALEM, COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.*[/SIGN]

Dj: Notice closely, (Revelation 21:9-11) . . .And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls which were full of the seven last plagues, and he spoke with me and said: “Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God 11 and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, as a jasper stone shining crystal-clear.

Where is the Bride? We believe the Bride is “The New Jerusalem” Compare “pillar” in Rev 3:12

JL: Well I don’t have to NOTICE CLOSELY, its as plain as day no question about that the New Jerussalem IS the BRIDE of Christ, the Church.

 

[jlhargus]

Dj: These are not a literal new heavens and earth. The Bible makes it plain that the current earth and heavens will last forever Ps 78:69; Eccl. 1:4; Ps 104:5; Ps 89:36,37…just like the ‘sea’ at Isa. 57:20 (Isaiah 57:20) . . .“*But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire. * . . .these are symbolic expressions.

The term “heavens” can also refer to other ruling powers that are exalted or lifted up above their subject peoples. The very dynasty of Babylonian kings that Nebuchadnezzar represented is described at Isaiah 14:12 as being starlike, a “shining one, son of the dawn.” By the conquest of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., that Babylonian dynasty lifted its throne “above the stars of God,” these “stars” evidently referring to the Davidic line of Judean kings (even as the Heir to the Davidic throne, Christ Jesus, is called “the bright morning star” at Re 22:16; compare Nu 24:17). By its overthrow of the divinely authorized Davidic throne, the Babylonian dynasty, in effect, exalted itself heaven high. (Isa 14:13, 14) This lofty grandeur and far-reaching dominion were also represented in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream by a symbolic tree with its height ‘reaching the heavens.’—Da 4:20-22.

The connection of the “heavens” with ruling power aids in understanding the meaning of the expression “new heavens and a new earth” found at Isaiah 65:17; 66:22 and quoted by the apostle Peter at 2 Peter 3:13. Observing such relationship, M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: “In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.”

Even as the “earth” can refer to a society of people (Ps 96:1), so, too, “heavens” can symbolize the superior ruling power or government over such “earth.” The prophecy presenting the promise of “new heavens and a new earth,” given through Isaiah, was one dealing initially with the restoration of Israel from Babylonian exile.

Upon the Israelites’ return to their homeland, they entered into a new system of things. Cyrus the Great was used prominently by God in bringing about that restoration. Back in Jerusalem, Zerubbabel (a descendant of David) served as governor, and Joshua as high priest. In harmony with Jehovah’s purpose, this new governmental arrangement, or “new heavens,” directed and supervised the subject people. (2Ch 36:23; Hag 1:1, 14) Thereby, as verse 18 of Isaiah chapter 65 foretold, Jerusalem became “a cause for joyfulness and her people a cause for exultation.”

Peter’s quotation, however, shows that a future fulfillment was to be anticipated, on the basis of God’s promise. (2Pe 3:13) Since God’s promise in this case relates to the presence of Christ Jesus, as shown at verse 4, the “new heavens and a new earth” must relate to God’s Messianic Kingdom and its rule over obedient subjects. By his resurrection and ascension to God’s right hand, Christ Jesus became “higher than the heavens” (Heb 7:26) in that he was thereby placed “far above every government and authority and power and lordship . . . not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”—Eph 1:19-21; Mt 28:18.

Christian followers of Jesus, as “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1), are assigned by God as “heirs” in union with Christ, through whom God purposed “to gather all things together again.” “The things in the heavens,” that is, those called to heavenly life, are the first to be thus gathered into unity with God through Christ. (Eph 1:8-11) Their inheritance is “reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4; Col 1:5; compare Joh 14:2, 3.) They are “enrolled” and have their “citizenship” in the heavens. (Heb 12:20-23; Php 3:20)

JL: Well that certainly is a mouth full and more. By the time one has finished reading it they will have forgoten the point, but maybe that’s the WT point. I also see you show no evidence just bk&verse. When I have evidence that’s the first thing I show. I guess if it isn’t evidence bk&verse at lest appears like it. I have checked enough WT bk&verse to know they don’t match what the WT tells us and of course no JW will look them up. I think the point with bk&verse only is the WT is banking on no one looking up all those verses. You really should learn how to cut WT canned remarks. You could have left out half those remarks and had a more clear post.

I have no problem with the SAME earth and the same HEAVEN=universe. Just as our resurrected bodies are transformed to glorified bodies so the new earth and new heaven=universe will be transformed into a glorified body, with the Glory of God, when the New Jerusalem comes down upon the new earth.

Rv21:1 And I saw A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for THE FIRST HEAVEN and THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea. See CCC 1042

Rv21: 2 And I JOHN SAW THE holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, COMING DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared AS A BRIDE adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, and HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and GOD HIMSELF SHALL BE WITH THEM, and be their God.

Rev21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY AND THE LAMB ARE THE TEMPLE OF IT. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Rv21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

 

[jlhargus]

As you stated…“they will still be clothed with those heavenly white robes, which are their righteous deeds.”

The clothes are not literal

The fact that some have “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” indicates that they have recognized their need of the sin-atoning merit of Jesus’ sacrifice as the Lamb of God. (John 1:29; 1 John 2:2) In faith they have dedicated themselves to God on the basis of that sacrifice, have symbolized this by water immersion and now enjoy a clean standing before God, as pictured by their white robes. They have not held back from publicly making known their faith in God’s Son. (Matt. 10:32, 33) Consistent with all of this, they are shown as being in God’s temple, or universal house of worship, as worshipers who render to God “sacred service day and night.” Thus they have made a record as loyal supporters of true worship and proclaimers of his Kingdom.—Isa. 2:2,

Jehovah portrays Jerusalem as once figuratively attired by him in beautiful garments. But she trusted in her prettiness and consorted with the pagan nations, decking herself out to be attractive, as a prostitute.—Eze 16:10-14; see also Eze 23:26, 27; Jer 4:30, 31.
Clothing is used symbolically in many Bible passages. Jehovah portrays himself as clothed with dignity, splendor, eminence, light, righteousness, zeal, and vengeance. (Ps 93:1; 104:1, 2; Isa 59:17) He is said to clothe his people in garments of righteousness and salvation. (Ps 132:9; Isa 61:10) His enemies will be clothed with shame and humiliation. (Ps 35:26) Paul commands Christians to strip off the old personality and to clothe themselves with the new personality, some of the features of which are the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, long-suffering, and, especially, love.—Col 3:9-14.

Many other symbolic references are made to clothing. Just as a uniform or special attire identifies one as belonging to a certain organization or supporting a certain movement, so clothing, as used symbolically in the Bible, indicates the identification of a person by the stand he takes and his activities in harmony with it, as in the case of Jesus’ illustration of the marriage garment. (Mt 22:11, 12; At Revelation 16:14, 15, the Lord Jesus Christ warns against falling asleep spiritually and being stripped of one’s identity as a faithful witness of the true God. This could be disastrous on the eve of “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.”

JL: I didn’t say those garments are literal clothes, yet THEY ARE CLOTHED, with their deeds, as scripture tells us.

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]jlhargus;6023069]JL: I didn’t say those garments are literal clothes, yet THEY ARE CLOTHED, with their deeds, as scripture tells us[/SIGN]

ACTUALLY, I THINK YOU DID…

[SIGN]JL: Jesus could have done anything he wanted even before he died and certainly after he rose. He didn’t NEED to materialize clothing OR bodies, in which to appear, He overcame the world, he was bodily raised, he is clothed with heavenly garments.

[Rv3:5 HE WHO OVERCOMES WILL, like them, BE DRESSED IN WHITE.]

[Rv4:4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were DRESSED IN WHITE and had crowns of gold on their heads.]

[Rv6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar THE SOULS OF THEM SLAIN for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And WHITE ROBES WERE GIVEN UNTO EVERY ONE OF THEM;] [/SIGN]

AS for the rest of your comments above. We have written 1000’s of articles using verse and scriptures to support what I have stated…when you have a regular spiritual ‘feeding’
from the “Faithful and Discreet slave” you come to know much more and understand how the pieces fit this wonderful ‘puzzle’ Pr 2:1-6; Mt 24:45-47

Good-bye

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

“* A little longer and the world will behold me no more.” (John 14:19) The “world” refers to humankind. So Jesus here plainly said that people on earth would not see him again after his ascension to heaven. The apostle Paul wrote: “Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”—2Corinthians 5:16

JL: Yes we no longer know Christ according to the flesh, as he has ascended. We now know him as the Alpha and Omega, God almighty. Yet Christ also is still a MAN, our mediator

[1Tm2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus;]. And man as our judge, [Act17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that MAN whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given ASSURANCE UNTO ALL MEN, in that he hath RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.]

Did you notice that MAN was RAISED FROM THE DEAD, which IS our assurance, proof or evidence, our bodies will be raised? Doesn’t the WT teach THAT MAN went out of existence, when he died? Doesn’t the WT teach THAT MAN came back as an ANGEL? – However that twisted tradition of men would work. – READ the scriptures Dj. Come out of your stupor tear off the veil of WT canned answers which blind you to the truth.

Heavy research is not necessary. The Watch Tower has done it for you. The most beneficial study you can do is to read The Watchtower or Awake! Or a new book by the organization. WT 6/1/1967, p. 338

A spirit being is not be A MAN or human being. A human being’s nature is BOTH body AND soul, Christ tells us clearly in [Mt10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy BOTH soul AND body in hell.]. The spirit of man alone is a disembodied soul and it’s nature is not complete without a body. BOTH body and soul complete a man and his nature as a human being.

Incidentally have you ever wondered where that living soul goes after bodily death until BOTH are thrown into hell or Gehenna, the lake of fire? That would be after the resurrection, when BOTH are reunited. Yet Christ tells us the soul does not die with the body, but God alone has disposition of the soul. Where does that living soul go till the resurrection?

The WORLD, would be those who do not know Christ. Christ’s people are in the world but not of the world.

[Jn14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that HE may ABIDE WITH YOU FOR EVER; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; WHOM **THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, NEITHER KNOWETH HIM: but YE KNOW HIM; for HE DWELLETH WITH YOU, AND shall be IN YOU. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU. 19 Yet a little while, and THE WORLD SEETH ME NO MORE; BUT YE SEE ME: because I live, ye shall live also.]

Christ has ALWAYS been PRESENT with his people and will be till the end. Not present visibly, but spiritually. He promised this when he SENT the apostles to TEACH the whole world, [Mt28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, **I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, EVEN UNTO THE END of the world. Amen.] He didn’t say I will be with you again in 1874 or 1914 or whatever date is in vogue with the WT today.

CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

My conclusion–.In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes. He appeared, or seemed to be, fully human, able to eat and drink, just as did the angels that Abraham once entertained.—Genesis 18:8; Hebrews 13:2.

While Jesus appeared to Thomas in a body similar to the one in which He was put to death, He also took on different bodies when appearing to His followers. Thus Mary Magdalene at first thought that Jesus was a gardener. At other times his disciples did not at first recognize him. In these instances it was not his personal appearance that served to identify him, but it was some word or action that they recognized.—READ John 20:14-16; 21:6,7; Luke 24:30,31…notice the “word” or “Actions”

JL: The WT’s conclusion, has no evidence, for a different body being materialized. Christ himself tells us he would raise the same body.

[1Cor15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. IT IS SOWN IN CORRUPTION; IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: 43 It is SOWN IN DISHONOUR; it is RAISED IN GLORY: it is SOWN IN WEAKNESS; it is RAISED IN POWER: 44 It is SOWN A NATURAL BODY; it is RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY.]

What is sown in corruption? The dead body. What is raised? The body. The NATURAL BODY is sown or buried and a SPIRITUAL BODY, suited for heaven, is raised. It is the same body, the same temple, as Christ tell us.

[Jn2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, DESTROY THIS TEMPLE, and IN THREE DAY I WILL RAISE IT UP. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But HE SPAKE OF THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY. 22 WHEN therefore HE WAS RISEN from the dead, HIS DISCIPLES REMEMBERED that HE HAD SAID THIS UNTO THEM; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.]

I have yet to see a scripture saying Christ materialized a body. Please explain to me how it can be called a RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, if the same dead body, albeit changed, isn’t RAISED FROM THE DEAD?

Everyone DID recognize Christ, didn’t they. None of them said, this isn’t the same person. The simple plain answer and fact is Jesus didn’t want to be recognized, till he chose.

Lk24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31 And THEIR EYES WERE OPENED, and THEY KNEW HIM; and he vanished out of their sight.
[Lk24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. 16 But THEIR EYES WERE HOLDEN THAT THEY SHOULD NOT KNOW HIM.] The NKJV has, their eyes were restrained, The NIV has, but they were kept from recognizing him.

It doesn’t take much of a change for people not to recognize someone and certainly doesn’t require a DIFFERENT body. I volunteer at church serving food. I wear an apron and a cap. I ran into a man at a store, who comes every week and has for the last three years. We usually talk for a few minutes. In the store I came up to him and begin to engage him in conversation. He asked me who I was, even when I told him were I knew him form he did not recognise me. I explained I wear a cap and apron he said oh yes. Yet the next time he came in he asked me to take off the cap to see if I was the one who had talked with him at the store.

I have had the same experience running into a neighbor in another part of town. My neighbor was wearing a cap and sun glasses, with a days beard growth. I didn’t recognise him until he told me he lived in the house next door. Still I didn’t recognize him by his appearance, he still didn’t look like himself to me. Because I had never seen him that way before.

I have not recognized people with whom I have been friends for five years and seen daily in a security uniform. I have passed them in a hallway, even both of us speaking, and not recognized them the first time I saw them out of uniform. Then about two minutes passed them, I realized who it was by their voice when we spoke. Point is It doesn’t take a different body, not to recognized someone, just a slight change can do it. Most especially if that person is Jesus and he want to be recognized at a certain point. Fact is, If the body is not raised, then there is NO RESURRECTION, since there would be NOTHING TO RESURRECT.

Rm8:23 And not only they, but OUSELVES ALSO, which HAVE THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THE SPIRIT, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR the adoption, to wit, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.

END of posts from the original post.

 

[jlhargus]

[SIGN]jlhargus;6023069] JL: I didn’t say those garments are literal clothes, yet THEY ARE CLOTHED, with their deeds, as scripture tells us[/SIGN]

Dj: ACTUALLY, I THINK YOU DID…

[SIGN]JL: Jesus could have done anything he wanted even before he died and certainly after he rose. He didn’t NEED to materialize clothing OR bodies, in which to appear, He overcame the world, he was bodily raised, he is clothed with heavenly garments.

[Rv3:5 HE WHO OVERCOMES WILL, like them, BE DRESSED IN WHITE.]

[Rv4:4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were DRESSED IN WHITE and had crowns of gold on their heads.]

[Rv6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar THE SOULS OF THEM SLAIN for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And WHITE ROBES WERE GIVEN UNTO EVERY ONE OF THEM;] [/SIGN]

JL: I don’t see where I said they are literal clothes. They are HEAVENLY GARMENTS, with which the soul or resurrected body is clothed, as scripture tells us. So when Christ manifested himself to the apostles his HEAVENLY GARMENTS are also manifested as clothes.

AS for the rest of your comments above. We have written 1000’s of articles using verse and scriptures to support what I have stated…when you have a regular spiritual ‘feeding’ from the “Faithful and Discreet slave” you come to know much more and understand how the pieces fit this wonderful ‘puzzle’ Pr 2:1-6; Mt 24:45-47

Good-bye

JL: If you have the actual scriptures then why would you HIDE your evidence? It makes no sense, if those scriptures really support your view. As I said my experience, looking up those bk&verse only, that the WT adds, is nothing more than window dressing to appear as thought they have evidence. When in fact the actual verses do not support their statements. Are you afraid to look them up. It seems to me looking them up and reading them in context would give you better knowledge of scripture.

I’m sure the WT has thousands of articles and books, which tells the JW only what the WT wants them to know and see, including out of context quotes. Have you ever once checked those 1000’s of articles with what the BIBLE actually says in context? Do so, you will be surprised they don’t match, with the WT’s words. Are you even allowed to do so? Why do you think the WT does all the work for you?

I have realized one important thing, with this discussion. Individual JWs do not KNOW THE BIBLE at all. Though they come across as very knowledgeable. They are trained in public speaking and practice the material they are to present. It is superficial knowledge not real understanding. They know only what the WT allows them to see and study in THOSE 1000’s of articles. I would say the overwhelming majority of them have NEVER even read ONE BOOK of scripture from beginning to end.

As for your reference to [Mt24:45 WHO then IS A FAITHFUL and WISE SERVANT, WHOM HIS LORD hath MADE RULER OVER HIS HOUSEHOLD, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.]

What is the HOUSEHOLD, the faithful and wise servant, has been made ruller over, by the LORD?

[1Tm3:5 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in THE HOUSE OF GOD, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF THE TRUTH.]

To whom did the Lord Jesus give the keys of the kingdom of heaven? Mt16:17-19. Whom did Christ tell to feed his lambs AND sheep? Jn21:15-17.

It certainly isn’t the WT’s so called Faithful and Discreet Slave. With their flip flop teachings, such as before the 1950’s the WT taught JW’s to worship Jesus. In the 1950’s they changed and told JW’s you can’t worship Jesus. Not to mention their constant mantra Amaggedon is RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER. It’s been just around that corner since 1914 or 1874.

I pray God will give you understanding and a desire to know and search out the truth of your LORD and SAVIOR, who desires ALL men be SAVED.

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]jlhargus;

I pray God will give you understanding and a desire to know and search out the truth of your LORD and SAVIOR, who desires ALL men be SAVED.[/SIGN]

I will say this jlhargus, things are not as they seem when you read the Bible on the surface

(Luke 10:21-22) 21 In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones, and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you. 22 All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one [knows] but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.”

We understand the Bible on a different plane than anyone else. I don’t expect for you to believe that BUT MY OFFER OF PROOF is found in this one example

(Matthew 10:27-28) …What I tell YOU in the darkness, say in the light; and what YOU hear whispered, preach from the housetops. 28And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na. *

if people study with the Jehovah’s Witnesses they will learn beyond a shadow of a doubt
that the ‘soul’ is not what every other religion teaches it is.
For example:

Hinduism teaches that man undergoes a series of rebirths, or reincarnations. For this to be true, man must have a soul that lives on after death. The Hindu holy book Bhagavad Gita states: “That which pervades the entire body is indestructible. No one is able to destroy the imperishable soul.”

Buddhism differs from Hinduism in that it denies the existence of an immortal soul. Nevertheless, today many Buddhists in the Far East believe in the transmigration of an immortal soul.

Many nominal Christians believe that after death, people go either to heaven or to hell. According to Islamic belief, there will be a day of judgment after death, when Allah will assess each one’s life course and consign each person to paradise or to hellfire. In some lands, beliefs regarding the dead are a curious blend of local tradition and nominal Christianity. In Sri Lanka, for example, both Buddhists and Catholics leave the doors and windows wide open when a death occurs in their household, and they place the casket with the feet of the deceased facing the front door. They believe that these measures facilitate the exit of the spirit, or soul, of the deceased. Among many Catholics and Protestants in West Africa, it is customary to cover mirrors when someone dies so that no one might look and see the dead person’s spirit. Then, 40 days later, family and friends celebrate the soul’s ascension to heaven.

The word soul is in the Bible over 800 times but because so many Bible’s change the original word to “person” Animal" Creature" and others…people are not getting the true meaning of what the Bible teaches.

…BUT, when you study the Bible with us, you come to see the REAL teaching of the soul. How? because you see the original-language terms (Heb., ne′phesh נפׁש]; Gr., psy·khe′ ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.
Only God can “kill” the life a person enjoys" forever.

The difficulty lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word “soul” stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religious thought. Greek philosopher Plato, for example, quotes Socrates as saying: “The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods.”—Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A.

In direct contrast with the Greek teaching of the psy•khe′ (soul) as being immaterial, intangible, invisible, and immortal, the Scriptures show that both psy•khe′ and ne′phesh, as used with reference to earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [ne′phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).”—1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467.

cont.

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]jlhargus;

I pray God will give you understanding and a desire to know and search out the truth of your LORD and SAVIOR, who desires ALL men be SAVED.[/SIGN]

I will say this jlhargus, things are not as they seem when you read the Bible on the surface

cont.

The Roman Catholic translation, The New American Bible, in its “Glossary of Biblical Theology Terms” (pp. 27, 28), says: “In the New Testament, to ‘save one’s soul’ (Mk 8:35) does not mean to save some ‘spiritual’ part of man, as opposed to his ‘body’ (in the Platonic sense) but the whole person with emphasis on the fact that the person is living, desiring, loving and willing, etc., in addition to being concrete and physical.”—Edition published by P. J. Kenedy & Sons, New York, 1970.

Ne′phesh evidently comes from a root meaning “breathe” and in a literal sense ne′phesh could be rendered as “a breather.” Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) defines it as: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17, 11 Dt 12, 23: (249 X) . . . soul = living being, individual, person.”

As for the Greek word psy•khe′, Greek-English lexicons give such definitions as “life,” and “the conscious self or personality as centre of emotions, desires, and affections,” “a living being,” and they show that even in non-Biblical Greek works the term was used “of animals.”

Of course, such sources, treating as they do primarily of classical Greek writings, include all the meanings that the pagan Greek philosophers gave to the word, including that of “departed spirit,” “the immaterial and immortal soul,” “the spirit of the universe,” and “the immaterial principle of movement and life.” Evidently because some of the pagan philosophers taught that the soul emerged from the body at death, the term psy•khe′ was also applied to the “butterfly or moth,” which creatures go through a metamorphosis, changing from caterpillar to winged creature.

The ancient Greek writers applied psy•khe′ in various ways and were not consistent, their personal and religious philosophies influencing their use of the term. Of Plato, to whose philosophy the common ideas about the English “soul” may be attributed (as is generally acknowledged), it is stated: “While he sometimes speaks of one of [the alleged] three parts of the soul, the ‘intelligible,’ as necessarily immortal, while the other two parts are mortal, he also speaks as if there were two souls in one body, one immortal and divine, the other mortal.”—The Evangelical Quarterly, London, 1931, Vol. III, p. 121, “Thoughts on the Tripartite Theory of Human Nature,” by A. McCaig.

**In view of such inconsistency in non-Biblical writings, it is essential to let the Scriptures speak for themselves, **showing what the inspired writers meant by their use of the term psy•khe′, as well as by ne′phesh. Ne′phesh occurs 754 times in the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Scriptures, while psy•khe′ appears by itself 102 times in the Westcott and Hort text of the Christian Greek Scriptures, giving a total of 856 occurrences. This frequency of occurrence makes possible a clear concept of the sense that these terms conveyed to the minds of the inspired Bible writers and the sense their writings should convey to our mind. An examination shows that, while the sense of these terms is broad, with different shades of meaning, among the Bible writers there was no inconsistency, confusion, or disharmony as to man’s nature, as existed among the Grecian philosophers of the so-called Classical Period.

The initial occurrences of ne′phesh are found at Genesis 1:20-23. On the fifth creative “day” God said: “‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls [ne′phesh] and let flying creatures fly over the earth . . . ’ And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul [ne′phesh] that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind.” Similarly on the sixth creative “day” ne′phesh is applied to the “domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth” as “living souls.”—Ge 1:24.

After man’s creation, God’s instruction to him again used the term ne′phesh with regard to the animal creation, “everything moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul [literally, in which there is living soul (ne′phesh)].” (Ge 1:30) Other examples of animals being so designated are found at Genesis 2:19; 9:10-16; Leviticus 11:10, 46; 24:18; Numbers 31:28; Ezekiel 47:9. Notably, the Christian Greek Scriptures coincide in applying the Greek psy•khe′ to animals, as at Revelation 8:9; 16:3, where it is used of creatures in the sea.

Thus, the Scriptures clearly show that ne′phesh and psy•khe′ are used to designate the animal creation lower than man. The same terms apply to man.

cont.

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]dj dave;

Thus, the Scriptures clearly show that ne′phesh and psy•khe′ are used to designate the animal creation lower than man. The same terms apply to man.

cont[/SIGN]

Precisely the same Hebrew phrase used of the animal creation, namely, ne′phesh chai•yah′ (living soul), is applied to Adam, when, after God formed man out of dust from the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, “the man came to be a living soul.” (Ge 2:7) Man was distinct from the animal creation, but that distinction was not because he was a ne′phesh (soul) and they were not. Rather, the record shows that it was because man alone was created “in God’s image.” (Ge 1:26, 27) He was created with moral qualities like those of God, with power and wisdom far superior to the animals; hence he could have in subjection all the lower forms of creature life. (Ge 1:26, 28) Man’s organism was more complex, as well as more versatile, than that of the animals.

(Compare 1Co 15:39.) Likewise, Adam had, but lost, the prospect of eternal life; this is never stated with regard to the creatures lower than man.—Ge 2:15-17; 3:22-24.
It is true that the account says that ‘God proceeded to blow into the man’s nostrils the breath [form of nesha•mah′] of life,’ whereas this is not stated in the account of the animal creation. Clearly, however, the account of the creation of man is much more detailed than that of the creation of animals. Moreover, Genesis 7:21-23, in describing the Flood’s destruction of “all flesh” outside the ark, lists the animal creatures along with mankind and says: “Everything in which the breath [form of nesha•mah′] of the force of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.” Obviously, the breath of life of the animal creatures also originally came from the Creator, Jehovah God.

So, too, the “spirit” (Heb., ru′ach; Gr., pneu′ma), or life-force, of man is not distinct from the life-force in animals, as is shown by Ecclesiastes 3:19-21, which states that “they all have but one spirit .”

As stated, man “came to be a living soul”; hence man was a soul, he did not have a soul as something immaterial, invisible, and intangible residing inside him. The apostle Paul shows that the Christian teaching did not differ from the earlier Hebrew teaching, for he quotes Genesis 2:7 in saying: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul [psy·khen′ zo′san].’ . The first man is out of the earth and made of dust.”—1Co 15:45-47.

The Genesis account shows that a living soul results from the combination of the earthly body with the breath of life. The expression “breath of the force of life [literally, breath of the spirit, or active force (ru′ach), of life]” (Ge 7:22) indicates that it is by breathing air (with its oxygen) that the life-force, or “spirit,” in all creatures, man and animals, is sustained. This life-force is found in every cell of the creature’s body

Since the term ne′phesh refers to the creature itself, we should expect to find the normal physical functions or characteristics of fleshly creatures attributed to it. This is exactly the case. Ne′phesh (soul) is spoken of as eating flesh, fat, blood, or similar material things (Le 7:18, 20, 25, 27; 17:10, 12, 15) being hungry for or craving food and drink (De 12:15, 20, 21; Ps 107:9; Pr 19:15; 27:7; Isa 29:8; 32:6; Mic 7:1); being made fat (Pr 11:25); fasting (Ps 35:13); touching unclean things, such as a dead body (Le 5:2; 7:21; 17:15; 22:6; Nu 19:13); being ‘seized as a pledge’ or being ‘kidnapped’ (De 24:6, 7); doing work (Le 23:30); being refreshed by cold water when tired (Pr 25:25); being purchased (Le 22:11; Eze 27:13); being given as a vow offering (Le 27:2); being put in irons (Ps 105:18); being sleepless (Ps 119:28); and struggling for breath (Jer 15:9).

It may be noted that in many texts reference is made to “my soul,” “his [or her] soul,” “your soul,” and so forth. This is because ne′phesh and psy•khe′ can mean one’s own self as a soul. The sense of the term can therefore often be expressed in English by use of personal pronouns. Thus Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (p. 627) shows that “my ne′phesh” means “I” (Ge 27:4, 25; Isa 1:14); “your [singular] ne′phesh” means “thou” or “you” (Ge 27:19, 31; Isa 43:4; 51:23); “his ne′phesh” means “he, himself” (Nu 30:2; Isa 53:10); “her ne′phesh” means “she, herself” (Nu 30:5-12), and so forth.

The Greek term psy·khe′ is used similarly. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 4, p. 54) says it may be used as “the equivalent of the personal pronoun, used for emphasis and effect:—1st person, John 10:24 (‘us’); Heb. 10:38; cp. [compare] Gen. 12:13; Num. 23:10; Jud. 16:30; Ps. 120:2 (‘me’); 2nd person, 2*Cor. 12:15; Heb. 13:17,” and so forth.

BUT in many of those scriptures above, YOUR Bible does not use the word “Soul”
at all! Do you see why there is a difference in our beliefs?..when the Bible says be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na…

it is talking about any future life that the person could have is in God’s hands
…it is up to the judgment of God and his Son as to whether or not the person is worthy of a resurrection.

Conclusion coming up