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dz102789
Guest
Agreed.
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grace_singh
Guest
Monte ~
here are some verses to back what i am saying :
**“You heard Me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by Himself; He can do only what He sees His Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. (John 5:19)
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Matthew 24:36)**
Scripturally the Son is distinct from and under the Father, yet One with Him, and through the Son the Father is manifested, present, and in flesh as Saviour on earth.
in many passages Jesus reveals that He is God in nature, power, being, and person, yet makes a distinction between the Father, and Himself. thus the Father is not the Son, yet both are God, fully, and One, with the Holy Spirit.
here are some verses to back what i am saying :
**“You heard Me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by Himself; He can do only what He sees His Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. (John 5:19)
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Matthew 24:36)**
Scripturally the Son is distinct from and under the Father, yet One with Him, and through the Son the Father is manifested, present, and in flesh as Saviour on earth.
in many passages Jesus reveals that He is God in nature, power, being, and person, yet makes a distinction between the Father, and Himself. thus the Father is not the Son, yet both are God, fully, and One, with the Holy Spirit.
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NotWorthy
Guest
There is a teaching of the Church that says that:
a) the Son and the Holy Spirit are totally encompassed in the Father.
b) at the same time, the Father and Holy Spirit are totally encompassed in the Son.
c) at the same time, the Father and Son are totally encompassed in the Holy Spirit.
My head hurts trying to get my hands around that one.
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grace_singh
Guest
mmm… i’m not sure about that one… i would agree with a), and i would agree wholly that all three are One, God, and co-equal, yet distinct, and unique even within their unity.
what Christ says about Himself as Son is that He came from and is under the Father, yet that He is also God in power, person, authority, and will. no one can be God but God, and no one but God can do the things Christ did of His own will and authority.
Scripture also says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, even as Christ Himself was guided and lead by the Holy Spirit during His ministry. so we can see all Three aspects or persons of the Trinity interacting with, glorifying, and communing with One another in the Gospels.
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Monte1945
Guest
Yes,… but then we have these scriptures:
John 20
28 Thomas replied, ‘My Lord and my God!’
John 14
7 If you know me, you will know my Father too. From this moment you know him and have seen him.
8 Philip said, ‘Lord, show us the Father and then we shall be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him,
9 'Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? 'Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father, so how can you say, “Show us the Father”?
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? What I say to you I do not speak of my own accord: it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his works.
I don’t think it is best to go through the whole new testement to find this one particular
scripture to try to fulfill an logical point in one’s mind… As Faith is of the “will” and not
the mind. There is the “essence” of a nature and God is of an essence of and through this exact essence God has manifested Himself in three different forms… They are seperate
in “cause” but the same in “effect”.
Or you might suppose in your mind that God formed himself in different forms to “do” different things. He became a man to redeem mankind in the form of a “Man” but he is the God Man… total man total God at the same time.
A mystery of the mind but a Truth of God revealed.
If you attempt to comprehend this with your mind, and you are looking out at the world
through the protestant faith you will see a different picture and understanding of this.
The Catholic view is much different… The Holy Spirit is a “nature” and this we receive
through Baptism and we share the divine nature and we complete that through the
the Sacraments which give to us our adoption as Sons of God in the sense that
we have the same nature as God in Spirit. We have it “actually” and thus we can
say as St. Peter wrote “we are partakers of the divine nature”…(2 Peter 4:8)
When I say we complete that I mean we partake of the dvine nature in degrees.
We accept the truth of God, revealed by God in the form of the “son” that we
can have the same nature as He if we allow that nature to grow within us so
that Christ can be fulfilled in all of us.
So we can say as St. Paul said… (Gal 2:20) “I live now not I, but Christ who lives in me”
The purpose and actual description of the Mystical body of Christ here in his kingdom on earth is that we are an actual part as Jesus. (as members of the church) we are the body and He is head of that Body…
We christians are blended together into the New body of Jesus… He is in us, we are in Him, the father is in us etc… We have a purpose to fulfill and that is to do the work of God to the people in our lives and to our communities. We need to take Jesus who is within us, and is now working through our human bodies to show the love of the father to them.
We show the glory of God by showing the world how beautiful the human essence can be if we cooperate with this nature which was created by God… Do not think for a minute that we are doing that much of our old selves.
But through “faith” to let God take over our lives and infuse in us the divine nature we
are a new creation and that new nature has it’s own “acts” as nature is cataloged from it’s activity. A dog acts like a dog because it has the nature of a dog.
We react as christians are suppose to because of this infusion of this new nature
it is NOT of ourselves prior to being changed from the old man to the new creation.
We did not do it, we “allowed” it to happen when we accepted our new natures from
God… Our surrender of our own wills to that of God’s is what began the work of salvation
in us. God is doing it in and through us. Our part is to “allow” it… to offer our lives to Him
and for us to react to our new natures through our free wills…
Maybe you can see this better from the description Dom Wulstan Mork O.S.B.
wrote in his book: “Transformed By Grace” "Suffice it to say now that with the
divine life the spirit gives to us the seven infused virtues and the seven gifts
means of forming us into christ’s image. The virtues are: Faith, Hope and Charity.
the four moral are: Prudence, Justice, Fortitude and Temperance.
These are not habits we develop on our own, but rather infused power to perform
these acts are given. We do them for the love of God for their end is to form us
into christ.
There is so much in regards to God coming in the form of a Man… that it would
take thousands of pages of discussion to even scratch the surface…
and I find that the scriptures give much to show that Jesus was God in the form
of a man… that is not the objective of Him doing so, but to redeem us so that we
can form into that same kind of person… Man with the spirit of God within us.
He is the perfect example of what he is calling from all of us…
He said it time and time again… all that I have done, you can do also…
you just have to “believe”… 'oh yea of little faith…
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NotWorthy
Guest
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zach_dunn
Guest
I haven’t been able to keep up with all of the posts so if these verses have been mentioned (yes, I’m going back to trying to prove to Martin that Jesus is God), I apologize.
Acts of the Apostles 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [KJV]
Acts of the Apostles 20:28
Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own -][Son]/-]. [NWT]
sigh I was hoping the NWT wouldn’t try to impose the WTBS’s theology into the text at every instance, but I guess there is no escaping it . . . the Greek word for son, υἱοῦ or yioy, does not appear in this verse, why does the WBTS add it? Probably because of the implications there are if it is not added.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. [KJV]
1 Timothy 3:16
Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: “He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.” [NWT]
This passage is much clearer in the KJV, but it is still easy to see in the NWT, the closes thing that “He” can be referring to is in verse 15 which is God. The next closest is again in verse 15 which is, again, God. The last time Christ is mentioned (by the name of “Christ”) is in verse 13. The meaning of the verse is very clear to someone who doesn’t already hold that Jesus is not God but a “spirit creature.”
Acts of the Apostles 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [KJV]
Acts of the Apostles 20:28
Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own -][Son]/-]. [NWT]
sigh I was hoping the NWT wouldn’t try to impose the WTBS’s theology into the text at every instance, but I guess there is no escaping it . . . the Greek word for son, υἱοῦ or yioy, does not appear in this verse, why does the WBTS add it? Probably because of the implications there are if it is not added.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. [KJV]
1 Timothy 3:16
Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: “He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.” [NWT]
This passage is much clearer in the KJV, but it is still easy to see in the NWT, the closes thing that “He” can be referring to is in verse 15 which is God. The next closest is again in verse 15 which is, again, God. The last time Christ is mentioned (by the name of “Christ”) is in verse 13. The meaning of the verse is very clear to someone who doesn’t already hold that Jesus is not God but a “spirit creature.”
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Monte1945
Guest
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
M
Monte1945
Guest
John 14 6-9
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
M
Monte1945
Guest
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
Somehow, it seems from this scripture that They are all together working as one.
Kind of too “profound” for my mind to grasp… But then, when I try to “understand”
some of the scriptures and what they might “mean” from the knowledge of God
and His truth I often fail.
Or in other words… when I try to totally understand some of the Truths of God, from the scriptures I feel like a grain of sand attempting to soak up the ocean.
One way to see it might be:
God begot Himself into flesh and become the Son
The “love” between God and the Son is the Holy Spirit.
M
Monte1945
Guest
How can the Son not have the nature of His father?
When a woman has a child the child always has the Nature of his/her parents.
There has never been any plant, animal or human who has lived without an equal share his/her parents nature.
If Jesus is the Son of God, then he has a divine nature from His father and a human
nature from his mother. Both in one form. It is something which was only done once
in all of creation so it can seem “out there” for us.
I think the same idea can be found in the comic book story of “Spiderman” as he
has a combination of a human/spider natures shared in the same body .
It is fiction but it is the same idea of the God/Man.
But then no where in the Bible does it say one has to understsand it, it
only said one has to believe it.
This is one of those difficult truths which requires “Faith” instead of the human logic.
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grace_singh
Guest
oh, i’m not trying to argue that Jesus isn’t God, He clearly is. yet He is also distinct from and under the Father, even as He is One with Him in nature, authority, and being, and there is no one else by whom we can be saved, reconciled to God, know God personally, and recieve eternal life.
the Nicean Creed says it well : “Light of Light, True God of True God, begotten not made, of One being with the Father”.
the Father sent the Son, is greater than the Son, and glorified the Son, and if we want to know and see the Father, is is to the Son and Him alone we should look. truly if we deny the Son, we also deny the Father. and if we do not know the Son, we do not truly know or have fellowship with the Father, either. no one can claim or make possible such things unless they themselves are God, in flesh.
the Nicean Creed says it well : “Light of Light, True God of True God, begotten not made, of One being with the Father”.
the Father sent the Son, is greater than the Son, and glorified the Son, and if we want to know and see the Father, is is to the Son and Him alone we should look. truly if we deny the Son, we also deny the Father. and if we do not know the Son, we do not truly know or have fellowship with the Father, either. no one can claim or make possible such things unless they themselves are God, in flesh.
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TheosisM
Guest
Where is this Church teaching?
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NotWorthy
Guest
I haven’t a clue.
The problem is, I listen to MP3 talks given by numerous priests and apologists. It helps me to learn a great deal about the bible, Church teaching, and history of the Church, but it makes it incredibly difficult to find the references and such.
This one, I believe was given by Dr. Lawrence Feingold of Hebrew Catholics (hebrewcatholic.org), but I can’t be sure. I do know that I listened to it several time to make sure I heard it right. I’m thinking it came from the Council at Orange?
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TheosisM
Guest
ah okay. What is your interpretation of this, that each Person is “totally encompassed” in the others? I’ve never heard this before.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Yes,ah okay. What is your interpretation of this, that each Person is “totally encompassed” in the others? I’ve never heard this before.
- The Son and the Holy Spirit are completely encompassed by the Father.
- The Father and the Holy Spirit are completely encompassed by the Son.
- The Father and the Son are completely encompassed by the Holy Spirit.
Are they all equal? If so, then either all 3 are false or all 3 are true.
Are they all One in Being? Then all 3 would be true.
The speaker did say this this wasn’t exactly widely known or talked about (maybe because of the headache-causing syndrome when trying to understand it) but nonetheless, it’s a teaching of the Church. I’ll see if I can find more on it.
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TheosisM
Guest
Thanks, but I’m really interested in what you/he means by “completely encompassed”. What does this mean? I’ll check out the Council of Orange to see if it mentions it, thanks.
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dtg
Guest
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Martin_R
Guest
I just had an interesting thought:
For those of you that think God is a trinity, how would you describe Him when Jesus was dead? If one of the three God people dies, do you then call God a duality or a partly dead trinity?
For those of you that think God is a trinity, how would you describe Him when Jesus was dead? If one of the three God people dies, do you then call God a duality or a partly dead trinity?
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DCNBILL
Guest
Please note that the concept of the Trinitarian of God is not God as a Trinity but God as Trinity, and not as three people but **three persons **of relationship, this may seem to be a fine point but theologically it makes a huge difference.
Your concept here is based on the false premise that God lives in time. Note that God is eternal and created time and is thus outside of time.
The Trinitarian God is a relationship of Father begetting Son from all eternity, the Son returning Himself to the Father in love from all eternity and the love shared between the Father and the Son generating the Holy Spirit from all eternity. There is never a “time” when this is not the way that God is.
When Jesus (fully human and fully Devine) walked the earth and suffered His death and resurrection, the Trinitarian God did not change due to the nature of being outside of time. I know it is not an easy concept, but we are talking about God here after all and all we can speak in is analogy.
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