Is Jesus God?

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Martin_R said:
I just had an interesting thought:
For those of you that think God is a trinity, how would you describe Him when Jesus was dead? If one of the three God people dies, do you then call God a duality or a partly dead trinity?
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It depends on how you understand the concept of ‘death’.
 
Martin_R said:
I just had an interesting thought:
For those of you that think God is a trinity, how would you describe Him when Jesus was dead? If one of the three God people dies, do you then call God a duality or a partly dead trinity?
Click to expand...
No less a Trinity than prior the the birth of Jesus.

I don’t remember, but are you of the opinion that Jesus is God or that Jesus is not God?
 
Martin_R said:
I just had an interesting thought:
For those of you that think God is a trinity, how would you describe Him when Jesus was dead? If one of the three God people dies, do you then call God a duality or a partly dead trinity?
Click to expand...
God is Spirit I believe. Do you believe that when Jesus died His spirit died also or that it went on to preach to the Spirits in prison?

placido
 
Martin_R said:
I just had an interesting thought:
For those of you that think God is a trinity, how would you describe Him when Jesus was dead? If one of the three God people dies, do you then call God a duality or a partly dead trinity?
Click to expand...
I just thought about it. Death is sleep, not non-existence. Remember the story of Adam and Eve? We should take it in another meaning:

So Jesus slept. I mean in the same way that Adam entered a deep sleep in order for Eve to be created, so did the ‘second Adam’ (Jesus) enter a ‘deep sleep’ (death) in order for the ‘second Eve’ (the Church) to be created.

So Jesus entered a deep sleep, which is death. Death is sleep.
 
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dcnbill said:
please note that the concept of the trinitarian of god is not god as a trinity but god as trinity, and not as three people but **three persons **of relationship, this may seem to be a fine point but theologically it makes a huge difference.

Your concept here is based on the false premise that god lives in time. Note that god is eternal and created time and is thus outside of time.

The trinitarian god is a relationship of father begetting son from all eternity, the son returning himself to the father in love from all eternity and the love shared between the father and the son generating the holy spirit from all eternity. There is never a “time” when this is not the way that god is.

When jesus (fully human and fully devine) walked the earth and suffered his death and resurrection, the trinitarian god did not change due to the nature of being outside of time. I know it is not an easy concept, but we are talking about god here after all and all we can speak in is analogy.
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[/sign]

i still don’t understand how he could be made “a little lower than angels” Hebrews 2:9 and where can you show me from the Bible the support for what you have stated?

respectfully, I invite you to search the Bible, especially the 27 books of the Christian Greek Scriptures, to see for yourself if Jesus and his disciples taught a Trinity. As you search, ask yourself:
  1. Can I find any scripture that mentions “Trinity”?
  2. Can I find any scripture that says that God is made up of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and holy spirit, but that the three are only one God?
  3. Can I find any scripture that says that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom?
    Search as you may, you will not find one scripture that uses the word Trinity, nor will you find any that says that Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom. Not even a single scripture says that the Son is equal to the Father in those ways—and if there were such a scripture, it would establish not a Trinity but at most a “duality.”
Also, what do you think is spoken about at Proverbs 8:22?
 
dj_dave said:
[sign][/sign]

i still don’t understand how he could be made “a little lower than angels” Hebrews 2:9 and where can you show me from the Bible the support for what you have stated?

respectfully, I invite you to search the Bible, especially the 27 books of the Christian Greek Scriptures, to see for yourself if Jesus and his disciples taught a Trinity. As you search, ask yourself:
  1. Can I find any scripture that mentions “Trinity”?
  2. Can I find any scripture that says that God is made up of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and holy spirit, but that the three are only one God?
  3. Can I find any scripture that says that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom?
    Search as you may, you will not find one scripture that uses the word Trinity, nor will you find any that says that Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom. Not even a single scripture says that the Son is equal to the Father in those ways—and if there were such a scripture, it would establish not a Trinity but at most a “duality.”
Also, what do you think is spoken about at Proverbs 8:22?
Click to expand...
Please note that there are many “words” that are not in the Bible that we use today to describe theological principals, but these principals are none the less bassed on the biblical and traditional teachings of the Church which has a very rich and wonderfull 2000 year history. I can understand your confusion concerning this matter in that it is a great mystery of God and to even try to understand it one must delve into the faith and theological study that few have time for, and for being one outside of the Faith it would be harder still.

As to answer your questions regarding the Trinity in the Bible, this has been rehashed many times on this forum, see below. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=340943&highlight=trinity+bible
 
[SIGN]Cristian I just thought about it. Death is sleep, not non-existence. Remember the story of Adam and Eve? We should take it in another meaning:[/SIGN]

Yes, I do…(Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Non-existence. :rolleyes:
 
dj_dave said:
[sign]Cristian I just thought about it. Death is sleep, not non-existence. Remember the story of Adam and Eve? We should take it in another meaning:[/sign]

Yes, I do…(Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Non-existence. :rolleyes:
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But it also says in the Bible that we will resurrect. It is not a literal sleep, but it is a comparison between death and a dreamless sleep. Actually, you always dream, but in ‘dreamless’ sleeps the problem is that you don’t remember them.

In the same way that you don’t know what happened while you were sleeping you will not know what happened while you were dead. The first death is a sleep. The second death, which will happen to the wicked at the end is stopping your existence in fire. You will be thrown into fire, and you will die. You will have an eternal punishment, meaning that your punishment of death will not be taken away, meaning you will stop existing.
 
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DCNBILL said:
Please note that there are many “words” that are not in the Bible that we use today to describe theological principals, but these principals are none the less bassed on the biblical and **traditional teachings **of the Church which has a very rich and wonderfull 2000 year history. I can understand your confusion **concerning this matter in that it is a great mystery of God **and to even try to understand it one must delve into the faith and theological study that few have time for, and for being one outside of the Faith it would be harder still.

As to answer your questions regarding the Trinity in the Bible, this has been rehashed many times on this forum, see below. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=340943&highlight=trinity+bible
Click to expand...
[/SIGN]

That link did not answer one of my questions I asked above. The truth is not a mystery–

(John 8:31-32) 31**And so Jesus went on to say to the Jews that had believed him: “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, 32 and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.*

I’m still waiting for an answer to what is being spoken about at Pr 8:22-31?
 
dj_dave said:
[SIGN][/SIGN]

That link did not answer one of my questions I asked above. The truth is not a mystery–

(John 8:31-32) 31**And so Jesus went on to say to the Jews that had believed him: “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, 32 and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.*

I’m still waiting for an answer to what is being spoken about at Pr 8:22-31?
Click to expand...
Well to the point that truth is not a mystery I will have to defer to you, you may know more than I. I for one do not comprehend the whole truth of God, as I am not God, therefore the whole truth of God is a mystery to me. Note that I am using the theological understanding of the word mystery here.(something so overwelming that it cannot be percieved, like someone shining a bright spotlight into your eyes)

As for Pr 8 22-31 I would think, considering the context of proverbs that the text is refering to a personification of wisdom.
 
dj_dave said:
That link did not answer one of my questions I asked above. The truth is not a mystery–

(John 8:31-32) 31**And so Jesus went on to say to the Jews that had believed him: “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, 32 and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.*

I’m still waiting for an answer to what is being spoken about at Pr 8:22-31?
Click to expand...
Jesus is the Word. Everything was created by the Word. Wisdom was the first thing created by the Word. Something like: ‘Let Me be Wise’ (I have no idea actually of how wisdom was created, but surely by a command of some sort). By saying that everything was created by the Word is like saying that everything was commanded to be created. E.g.: let there be light, let there be grass, etc.

Wisdom was the first thing created. Everything that was created was created by the Word. For wisdom to be created, it had to be commanded to be created. A commandment is spoken, and what is spoken is composed by words. Therefore, before something was created, the Word was needed.

Jesus is the Word, so He is the first thing that was. But the first thing created was wisdom, and everything that was created was created trough the Word which is Jesus. The first thing that was is Jesus, which is the Word. The Word originated from somewhere, and that place where it originated from is the Father. The Father created all trough His Voice, trough His Word everything that was created, and the first thing He created trough His Word, the first thing that was created is wisdom. Jesus is the voice, the Word of God. Since everything that was created was created trough the Word, the Word (Jesus) had to exist before the creation in order for the creation itself to be created. If there was no Word before the creation (e.g.: wisdom) then the creation could not be created since every creation was created trough the Word, therefore the Word had to be before the creation existed.

Is this so hard to understand?
 
dj_dave said:
[SIGN]Cristian I just thought about it. Death is sleep, not non-existence. Remember the story of Adam and Eve? We should take it in another meaning:[/SIGN]

Yes, I do…(Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Non-existence. :rolleyes:
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What came from the ground is the body and it is the body that returns to the ground. “And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath returns to God who gave it” - Ecclesiates 12:7

placido
 
Martin_R said:
I just had an interesting thought:
For those of you that think God is a trinity, how would you describe Him when Jesus was dead? If one of the three God people dies, do you then call God a duality or a partly dead trinity?
Click to expand...
This question hinges on whatever your belief is when a humans dies. When one starts to believe in the idea that man is both a temporal body and an immortal spirit, then a dead God is simply the separation of Jesus’ body and his Spirit. God did not cease to exist when Jesus died!

Catholics take the Faith as a whole, not pieces of information. The Truth is one whole Truth and cannot be taken in pieces. Truth does not hold when broken into pieces.
 
[SIGN]Cristian B Jesus is the Word. Everything was created by the Word.Wisdom was the first thing created by the Word.[/SIGN]
  1. Everything was created ‘out’ of God…but, ‘through’ the word (1 Corinthians 8:6) 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
  2. God has always had wisdom but the Son was his first creation. Compare
    (Colossians 2:3) *Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge. *
ALSO, (Revelation 3:14) .And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
 
Cristian_B said:
But it also says in the Bible that we will resurrect. It is not a literal sleep, but it is a comparison between death and a dreamless sleep. Actually, you always dream, but in ‘dreamless’ sleeps the problem is that you don’t remember them.

In the same way that you don’t know what happened while you were sleeping you will not know what happened while you were dead. The first death is a sleep. The second death, which will happen to the wicked at the end is stopping your existence in fire. You will be thrown into fire, and you will die. You will have an eternal punishment, meaning that your punishment of death will not be taken away, meaning you will stop existing.
Click to expand...
[SIGN]You will be thrown into fire, and you will die. You will have an eternal punishment, meaning that your punishment of death will not be taken away, meaning you will stop existing.—[/SIGN]I FULLY AGREE WITH THIS, except that Ibelieve the fire is symbolic of eternal destuction.
 
dj_dave said:
[SIGN]You will be thrown into fire, and you will die. You will have an eternal punishment, meaning that your punishment of death will not be taken away, meaning you will stop existing.—[/SIGN]I FULLY AGREE WITH THIS, except that Ibelieve the fire is symbolic of eternal destuction.
Click to expand...
I think you do also “believe” that you are the vicar of the Holy Spirit, here to reveal to us the “symbolic” meaning of the Holy Bible, which the Holy spirit failed to reveal to the writers.

placido
 
dj_dave said:
[SIGN]Cristian B Jesus is the Word. Everything was created by the Word.Wisdom was the first thing created by the Word.[/SIGN]
  1. Everything was created ‘out’ of God…but, ‘through’ the word (1 Corinthians 8:6) 6 *there is actually to us one God the Father, out *of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
  2. God has always had wisdom but the Son was his first creation. Compare
    (Colossians 2:3) *Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge. *
ALSO, (Revelation 3:14) .And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
Click to expand...
Yes, everything was created ‘through’ the Word… who created the Word? was there a time when God was without ‘Word’?, you see in the greek the word in John 1:1 is Logos, it means more than simply ‘Word’, it means that, but it also means ‘reason’ and ‘wisdom’. Which leads us to what Paul calls Christ, ‘The Power and Wisdom of God’ 1Cor 1:24… was there a time when God was without Word, Power and Wisdom?.. If so then God was not God. You are left with an inanimate object… Is this God, before he ‘created’ Jesus, lacking Wisdom, Word and Power?

He is the beginning of the Creation of God, because ‘In the beginning was the Word…all things were made through Him’(John1). Isn’t Christ ‘The Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the end’ as Revelations 22: 12-13 tells us (see also 1:17-18)?

Peace
 
dj_dave said:
[sign]You will be thrown into fire, and you will die. You will have an eternal punishment, meaning that your punishment of death will not be taken away, meaning you will stop existing.—[/sign]I FULLY AGREE WITH THIS, except that Ibelieve the fire is symbolic of eternal destuction.
Click to expand...
The fire is real. The apostle Peter says that the Earth will burn in fervent heat and that the elements and everyone on it will melt. The believers are taken up in the sky to meet Jesus, so they will not die in the fire. Then, at the second resurrection the wicked will receive the rest of their punishment.

The fire is very real.
 
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