Is Jesus God?

[E.E.N.S]

Does everybody now more clearly see the error, and dangers, of sola scriptura? This is what happens when you divorce Sacred Scripture from Sacred Tradition. (You wonder why a person would accept the council’s decision on which books are inspired, but not the same council’s conclusion on the interpretation of those same books.)

 

[TheQuestioner]

Maybe but then again how are people to understand if you don’t explain and persuade?

Acts 26 NIV
28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can* persuade* me to be a Christian?”
29 Paul replied, “Short time or long–I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains.”

and

Acts 19 NIV
8 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God.

Paul was arguing and persuading them just like we are with you. The difference between the way you persuade and the way Paul persuades was that Paul understood that it was not he who was converting anyone. It was God through him. At the end of the day Paul knew that God grants the grace for people to believe in him. He did not limit God’s power to his understanding in order to make it make “sense” to others. He did not change the nature of God in order to let others better understand him so that they would change religions. He only planted the seed, but let the growing be done by God. And even that planting of the seed is done by God in truth.

God is unimaginable, and as such one cannot understand him fully unless they wish their heads to explode. Even then they would only understand barely the surface of his might. There was once a person who actually tried to understand the Trinity (his name i cannot remember, but i believe he was a Saint). One day he was walking down the beach and he met a little boy who would take a bucket of water and pour it out on the sand. When he asked the boy what he was doing, he said he was trying to empty the sea. The man then told the boy that it was useless because as he pours the water out the waves come in and take it back. The boy then looked at the man and said “so it is with the trinity” and disappeared. And so the man stopped trying to understand the trinity and accepted it as what it was, a mystery.

And so all we have to do is remember God’s words, his very name. “I Am That I Am”. He is that he is, seek not to understand it but to accept it as truth. For God has shown us time and again what he is, and it is the folly of man to seek to understand, and not to believe.

 

[TheQuestioner]

I haven’t really studied that as a subject but I suspect my views are the same as yours on that.

That the Holy Spirit is not the Father, but is God. Just like the Son is not the Father, but is God?

 

[zach_dunn]

I haven’t really studied that as a subject but I suspect my views are the same as yours on that.

I doubt that Martin, . Do you beleive that the Holy Spirit is God? I don’t think you do, that’s what we believe. That’s why it’s called the Trinity, because there are THREE persons in the ONE God.

 

[zach_dunn]

MartinR:

Maybe/maybe not around forever but before the earth was created. (Post #197)

He was around forever because He is God’s Word, God has always had His Word.

Son of God, given a body by God.

Hbr 10:5 That is why Christ, when he came into the world, said, "You did not want animal sacrifices and grain offerings. But you have given me a body so that I may obey you. NLT

or “But a body You have prepared for Me.” as other translations have put it.

You obviously just don’t understand what the phrase “Son of God” entails. “Son of” implies “of the same nature as.” You are your father’s son, therefore you share his human nature, which makes you human. You’ve noted before that David and Adam are called sons of God, but this is an adoptive sonship, not an eternal/divine sonship that Jesus has. All validly baptized Christians are adopted sons/daughters of God, but Jesus is different. He is the divine Son of God. Therefore He has a divine nature, and therefore He is God.

Yes, no mention of three in one.

This doesn’t exclude the possibility of the Trinity, we profess one God just as this verse states.

• Deu 6:4 - NIV
  Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.*
  Footnote:

• Or The Lord our God is one Lord; or The Lord is our God, the Lord is one; or The Lord is our God, the Lord alone

It seems to be making a point here that Yĕhovah (the word used here) is only one, not three in one. Yes, as you say, simple.

This is making the point that there is only one God, which we profess. It also teaches that God is the Lord alone. but in 1 Cor 8:6 we see that Jesus is the only Lord. It CANNOT be more simple than this!

Yes He alone is God, no mention of Jesus being God as well.

Who is the “He” you are referring to? It must be the Lord, and who is the Lord? Christ Jesus [1 Cor 8:6].

Yes.1 Corinthians 11:3

Sorry Martin, this doesn’t say what you think it says, and it doesn’t disprove the Trinity. We profess Jesus Christ is God and man. God, the Trinity, has a will for Jesus (man) to abide by, this is how God is the head of Christ. God (Trinity) is the head of Christ (man), no contradiction.

and is defined as:

1. he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord

a) the possessor and disposer of a thing

1. the owner; one who has control of the person, the master

1. in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor

b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master

c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

And this is the definition that the Bible uses in this case.

 

[TheQuestioner]

I’ve already covered this in posts #129-132

No, you didn’t “cover” anything. You posted a rebuttal to John, which was then rebutted itself, and instead of admitting that theos meant God, which by the way would make sense since theology means discourse or reasoning or study on God, Theo being God and logos being the “ology” part, just as biology means study on life, bio being the life and logos being the “ology” part. From Wiki.

Theology translates into English the Greek theologia (θεολογία) (from theos (θεός) meaning God and logos (λόγος) meaning word

Instead of admitting you were wrong you went on to believe your point regardless of all the people who kept pointing out that theos meant God. Now…you made a good step in trying to analyze the original Greek in order to help clarify things, but once that failed you just started to outright ignore the arguments posted.

Now in light of the fact that the Word was God, once you read 1 Cor 8:6 in light of John 1, you realize that it acts as a case for Jesus being God.

 

[Sunflower15]

It seems that going back & forth with Bible verses doesn’t seem to work…just because each passage means something different according to different traditions…so ‘Son of God’ means something different to those who believe Jesus is God than to those who do not, for example.

I thought the Gospel of John was the most clear argument for Jesus being the 2nd Person of the Trinity, but somehow, something there doesn’t sound like it to some.

Also, the word “Persons” seems to be getting in the way of understanding the Trinity, Who is NOT made up of ‘PARTS’ but is more like a collective noun. One people/nation refers to many persons]

Is there disagreement in that the man Jesus is the incarnation of the Word/Wisdom of God? [even if we don’t call it the 2nd Person?]

In philosophy, once can say that an acorn is a tree in potentiality, even if it isn’t yet a tree in actuality. That is why one could say through logic, IF at some point the Word became flesh, that in potentiality, it always was, even if it wasn’t yet in actuality because the potential to become it was there always.

This truth was almost impossible to explain back then, but frankly, it shouldn’t be so difficult nowadays…if we think about it, even by the theory of relativity, we know that matter and energy can be converted from one to the other…so, why not from Spirit to flesh?

My guess is that the Holy Spirit is as much of a problem as Jesus for those who don’t believe in the Trinity…no?

Would traditions that are not believers of the Trinity believe that the Holy Spirit is God as well? Do they understand the HS to be the Love/Breath of Life as we do?
We have even less to go about the HS than about Jesus, so I sincerely doubt it!

 

[Sunflower15]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I find very interesting how the Father creates:

He creates ALL things through the Word/Wisdom Who later became Flesh] using concrete matter / elements

for Living Things,
He "breathes" the Holy Spirit to animate and give life

Somehow, the Father’s Will is transmuted into being by the Word/Wisdom, and when the thing is to become living then the Holy Spirit intervenes at the moment of its creation

[Note: that is why we, Catholics at least, believe that a human has a spirit and a body since the moment of conception, other religions/traditions believe that the spirit comes later]

Some even see creation as a ‘cooperating process’ because of the intervention of God’s Will [the Father], God’s Word/Thought/Wisdom [the Son], and God’s animating Spirit of Life [the Holy Spirit].

Sorry if I digressed a little… I just wanted to share that I think it’s interesting to see how God creates… I find Him VERY interesting!

 

[TheQuestioner]

Also, *Col. 2:9

*May God bless you.

 

[zach_dunn]

Is there disagreement in that the man Jesus is the incarnation of the Word/Wisdom of God? [even if we don’t call it the 2nd Person?]

I doubt Martin could disagree with this, even with his desired translation of John 1:1

“1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was Christ, and Christ was God’s representative.” :banghead:

Or something to that effect. This still shows that Jesus is God’s Word and verse 14 shows that the Word became flesh, just curious Sunflower, but do you have some sort of place you’re going with this?

 

[zach_dunn]

Also, *Col. 2:9

*May God bless you.

I provided this verse already, you can read his explanation of this verse in post #121 if you like. I think his explanation (that Jesus is the “exact likeness” of God) basically teaches that Jesus is God without acknowledging it.

Martin, you never responded to my post #168, what do you think of it?

 

[Sunflower15]

I doubt Martin could disagree with this, even with his desired translation of John 1:1

“1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was Christ, and Christ was God’s representative.” :banghead:

Is there a translation that puts it that way?!

Or something to that effect. This still shows that Jesus is God’s Word and verse 14 shows that the Word became flesh, just curious Sunflower, but do you have some sort of place you’re going with this?

I guess I’m trying to see where the point of divergence is at between what he believes [and those like him] and what we believe. I just don’t understand how we can believe the same thing and then suddenly we go off to opposite ends!

I’m trying to determine if the issue is with ‘Jesus’ or with the ‘Persons’ or with what! Somewhere, there is a 'missing link…but I just don’t see where it is…

 

[Ignatius]

I’ve started this thread to discuss the idea that Jesus is God.

Is Jesus God? Absolutely, my Lord and my God. It’s the basis of Christianity.

 

[Martin_R]

Quote:
I suspect their anger was building and building with each of these things He said.
I don’t see anything in what Jesus said that would anger them, besides claiming the divine name . . .

They were already plotting to kill Him as we were told in the previous chapter:
John 7:1 After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. NIV

then in verse 7 Jesus tells us why:

The world can’t hate you, but it does hate me because I accuse it of sin and evil. NIV

Others said He deceives the people. (John 7:12)

Quote:
Sorry, wrong verse. There are several, how about 49?
See, this is what I think instigated the anger, He claims to be God in this verse [see Jn 5:18].

No, in that verse He claimed He was equal to God:
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. NIV

Quote:
Because He’s not one of their special group maybe.
Sorry, that’s kind of a week argument, they didn’t want Him in their social group, they had been plotting to kill Him, they just hadn’t had sufficient reason to. Until verse 58, that is.

No it’s not, they were an envious lot:

Mat 27:18 For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him. NIV

John 7:15
The Jewish leaders were surprised when they heard him. “How does he know so much when he hasn’t studied everything we’ve studied?” they asked. NIV

Quote:
Maybe that was the point at which He stopped speaking and they made their decision after all that He had said.
They only took up stones in verse 59, He spoke again in verse 58. He didn’t stop at 47.
I was saying they listened all the way through chapter 8 then right at the end (the last verse), they then decided to stone Him for the many things He’d said.

Quote:
No it doesn’t, that was the name He was given by God.
What basis do you have for saying this?

When God sent representatives, they went in His name e.g.

an angel:

Exd 23:20 "See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.
Exd 23:21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.

David:

1Sa 17:45 David said to the Philistine, "You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.

and of course Jesus:

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The Lord Our Righteousness. (Hebrew = Yahweh)

 

[Martin_R]

Paul was arguing and persuading them just like we are with you. The difference between the way you persuade and the way Paul persuades was that Paul understood that it was not he who was converting anyone. It was God through him. At the end of the day Paul knew that God grants the grace for people to believe in him. He did not limit God’s power to his understanding in order to make it make “sense” to others. He did not change the nature of God in order to let others better understand him so that they would change religions. He only planted the seed, but let the growing be done by God. And even that planting of the seed is done by God in truth.

God is unimaginable, and as such one cannot understand him fully unless they wish their heads to explode. Even then they would only understand barely the surface of his might. There was once a person who actually tried to understand the Trinity (his name i cannot remember, but i believe he was a Saint). One day he was walking down the beach and he met a little boy who would take a bucket of water and pour it out on the sand. When he asked the boy what he was doing, he said he was trying to empty the sea. The man then told the boy that it was useless because as he pours the water out the waves come in and take it back. The boy then looked at the man and said “so it is with the trinity” and disappeared. And so the man stopped trying to understand the trinity and accepted it as what it was, a mystery.

And so all we have to do is remember God’s words, his very name. “I Am That I Am”. He is that he is, seek not to understand it but to accept it as truth. For God has shown us time and again what he is, and it is the folly of man to seek to understand, and not to believe.

If He said it, I’d believe it. That’s my point - He didn’t.

 

[Martin_R]

That the Holy Spirit is not the Father, but is God. Just like the Son is not the Father, but is God?

The Spirit is God’s power or will and is, therefore, part of God.

 

[Martin_R]

I doubt that Martin, . Do you beleive that the Holy Spirit is God? I don’t think you do, that’s what we believe. That’s why it’s called the Trinity, because there are THREE persons in the ONE God.

My belief about the Spirit is the same as yours, I expect, not the Trinity.

 

[Martin_R]

He was around forever because He is God’s Word, God has always had His Word.

“Word of God” was the title Jesus was given (Rev 19:13)
It may or may not mean God’s literal spoken word where it it used in various verses.
Good point though.

You obviously just don’t understand what the phrase “Son of God” entails. “Son of” implies “of the same nature as.” You are your father’s son, therefore you share his human nature, which makes you human. You’ve noted before that David and Adam are called sons of God, but this is an adoptive sonship, not an eternal/divine sonship that Jesus has. All validly baptized Christians are adopted sons/daughters of God, but Jesus is different. He is the divine Son of God. Therefore He has a divine nature, and therefore He is God.

If you view the word “God” as a species, yes. But then we have two people being God, the Father and the Son but the Bible tells us there is only one God.

This doesn’t exclude the possibility of the Trinity, we profess one God just as this verse states.

This is making the point that there is only one God, which we profess. It also teaches that God is the Lord alone. but in 1 Cor 8:6 we see that Jesus is the only Lord. It CANNOT be more simple than this!

The point being made here is that there is only one God and only one Lord (master).
That becomes clear if you read the previous verse:

• 1Cr 8:5 -
  For even if there are so‑called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), NIV

Who is the “He” you are referring to? It must be the Lord, and who is the Lord? Christ Jesus [1 Cor 8:6].

No, God (Yĕhovah) He alone is God.

Deu 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.* NIV
Footnote:

• Or The Lord our God is one Lord; or The Lord is our God, the Lord is one; or The Lord is our God, the Lord alone

Nothing about three, only one.

Sorry Martin, this doesn’t say what you think it says, and it doesn’t disprove the Trinity. We profess Jesus Christ is God and man.

Yes I know what you profess but it’s not what the Bible says.

God, the Trinity, has a will for Jesus (man) to abide by, this is how God is the head of Christ. God (Trinity) is the head of Christ (man), no contradiction.

And this is the definition that the Bible uses in this case.

 

[Martin_R]

HELLO Martin YES YES YES IS THE ANSWER.I know this to true because i met him in town called MEDJUGORJE in 2006.

jude.

Luke 21:8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. NIV

 

[Sunflower15]

The Spirit is God’s power or will and is, therefore, part of God.

Except that logically speaking, God cannot have ‘parts’ because it is a perfect whole being… so we speak of ‘Persons’ instead…which means something different from what the modern sense means…as does most of the philosophical/theological language

Another thing to consider about the Holy Spirit [3rd Person of Trinity] is that the HS is the one Who:

1. overshadows Mary to conceive
2. rests over Jesus at His baptism to begin His ministry
3. lifts Jesus up at His resurrection

Only GOD can do those things…as well as the following for us:

1. breaths Life into living things and humans at Creation [animates]
2. descends upon the disciples at Pentecost