Is Jesus God?

[cides23]

cides23:
it means his church will never become over come by error by the father of lies the devil. there will never be a total apostasy like JW"s mormons claims.

Dan:
That is your interpretation, and you have not discussed the verses I used to show that the Son has the keys to Hades. Hades is not a synonym for error. I have no idea where you get this interpretation, but you don’t support if from scripture.

cides23:
The church guided by the HOly Spirit will teach all truth not teach false teachings and keep correcting it by saying the light is getting brighter. there is nothing for me to prove but the church His church stands and proves herself by remaining the same church founded by Jesus and has over come and continues to over come heresies and sin.

Dan:
You claim the modern Catholic Church has been the body of Christ since the 1st century. I don’t agree. You assume and presume that Jesus founded your Church. That is not proof.

cides23:
you have not really studied history but study what the Watch Tower gives you… unless you go and study other documents but i was told by JW’s themselves that they will not look at other documents… in the book should you believe in the Trinity, early church fathers were suppose to have been quoted although there were no quotes of info of where the info was taken, but we have all their quotes and those that the JW’s try to quote all taught Jesus is truly True GOD and True Man. All tought what the Catholic Church still teaches and nothing contradicts the Bible.

Dan:
I suggest you do a search of my posts and see the discussions on things that Justin Martyr and Theophilus taught. Justin Martyr taught that the Son was not the Creator and that the Father was so great that he could not have come down to the earth but the Son could.

Theophilus taught that John 1:1 should be interpreted as “At First God was alone and the Word in him.” Catholics today would never say God was alone.

I don’t claim these theologians taught what JWs teach either, but the closer one gets to the 1st century the closer one gets to JW theology and the farther away one gets to modern Catholicism.

Yes Jesus has the Keys and he also share that with Peter "and i will give you the keys and what ever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and what ever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven…
It is not my interpretation but it has been the interpretation of the Church for 2000 years if not tell me when it was first started???

Again read Church Fathers, Justin Martyr Ignatious of Antioch, Augustine, Polycarp etc… there is nothing for me to prove it’s all in their writing if you are willing to read it…

St Justin Marty taught Jesus was GOD = (St Justin Martyr First Apology 148 -155AD)
They who assert that the Son is the Father are proved to know neither the Father, nor that the Father of all has a Son, who is both the first-born Word of God and is GOD. Formerly He appeared to Moses and to the other prophets in the form of fire and as an incorporeal image, and now, in the times of your reign, having become man, as we said, by Virgin and by the will of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe in Him, He allowed Himself to be treated with contempt and to suffer so that by death and resurrection He might conquer death

 

[cides23]

cides23:

Dan:
I suggest you do a search of my posts and see the discussions on things that Justin Martyr and Theophilus taught. Justin Martyr taught that the Son was not the Creator and that the Father was so great that he could not have come down to the earth but the Son could.

Theophilus taught that John 1:1 should be interpreted as “At First God was alone and the Word in him.” Catholics today would never say God was alone.

I don’t claim these theologians taught what JWs teach either, but the closer one gets to the 1st century the closer one gets to JW theology and the farther away one gets to modern Catholicism.

St Theophilus of Antioch 181 AD : … "This is what the HOly Scriptures teach us, as do all the inspired men, one of whom, John, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and showing that at first GOD was alone, and the Word was in Him. Then he says, “And the Word was GOD; all things were made through Him, w/out HIm was made nothing.” Thw Word, then being GOD and being generated from GOD, is sent to any place at the will of the Father of the universe…”
Thoephilus in the above paragraph from this quote also states “the Word which always exists internally in the Heart of GOD.”

So far Theophilus sounds like what the Catholic Church still teaches today, unlike JW’s theology which states GOD created Michael and then Michael created every thing else.

St Just Martyr WOW i have his writings here with me at work. yes i brought my book of the Early 1st century Christians and WOW Justin is so on key with Catholic Theology, Showing. WOW the more i read his writings and the writings of the first Century Christians it makes me so proud and praise GOD that i’m Catholic for the teachings are still what we teach!! i suggest you do a little more in depth studying of St Justin Martyr who call Jesus GOD

 

[jlhargus]

cides23:
it means his church will never become over come by error by the father of lies the devil. there will never be a total apostasy like JW"s mormons claims.

Dan:
That is your interpretation, Hades is not a synonym for error. I have no idea where you get this interpretation, but you don’t support if from scripture.

JL: No Hades is not a synonym for error. Yet if the Church apostatized then the gates of Hades has prevailed against it, hasn’t it? And Christ would have failed to fulfill his promise, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, Mt16:18. Also he promised to be with the Church till the end, Mt28:16-20. If the Church apostatized wouldn’t that make Christ an hireling and not a good shepherd, who flees leaving the flock to the wolves? Jn10:12-13. If the Church apostatized then Christ was unable to keep his promise to led it into all Truth? Jn16:13. If the Church apostatized, why would scripture tell us to listen to the Church? Mt18:17. If the Church apostatized it could not be a pillar and ground of truth, could it? 1Tm3:15.? If the Church apostatized then how can you trust the canon of the bible?

Show us HISTORIC evidence of any Christians rising in protest over the so called apostasy of the Church? Did all Christians just roll over and play dead? Give us some names and writings of those who opposed this so called apostasy? Give us historic evidence of this so called apostasy of the Church? Give us scripture telling us the CHURCH will apostatize and we are no longer to listen to that Church?

 

[jlhargus]

cides23:
you have not really studied history but study what the Watch Tower gives you… unless you go and study other documents but i was told by JW’s themselves that they will not look at other documents… in the book should you believe in the Trinity, early church fathers were suppose to have been quoted although there were no quotes of info of where the info was taken, but we have all their quotes and those that the JW’s try to quote all taught Jesus is truly True GOD and True Man. All tought what the Catholic Church still teaches and nothing contradicts the Bible.

Dan:
I suggest you do a search of my posts and see the discussions on things that Justin Martyr and Theophilus taught. Justin Martyr taught that the Son was not the Creator and that the Father was so great that he could not have come down to the earth but the Son could.

JL: Well I suggest you do a search on line and see what Justin Martyr and Theophilus really taught about Christ in context. I would very much like to see your WT quote in its total context. We both know it is not YOUR research of the fathers from which you quote, but only what the WT wants you to see and read. I have not found this particular so called quote, yet. Perhaps you would give the source so we can read it in context.

Dan:
Theophilus taught that John 1:1 should be interpreted as “At First God was alone and the Word in him.” Catholics today would never say God was alone.

JL: Yes before anything was created, AT FIRST, God was alone and the Word in him, and the Holy Spirit in him, and the Father in him. ONE GOD in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I bet you can’t give us the source for your quote of Theophilus so we can look it up and read it in context can you? You can only read and see what the WT allows you to read and see.

 

[jlhargus]

Dan:
I don’t claim these theologians taught what JWs teach either, but the closer one gets to the 1st century the closer one gets to JW theology and the farther away one gets to modern Catholicism.

JL: That is the WT’s erroneous interpretation, prove it. Show me where the Church or assembly was ever called Jehovah’s Witnesses anywhere in the NT? Show me where any of the apostles ever said we are to be witnesses of Jehovah? Christ said we are to be HIS witnesses.

[Acts1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be MY WITNESSES in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH."] Who is MY, Jesus Christ, so unless you acknowledge Jesus as Yahweh, you are in total contradiction of the scriptures. Instead of being witnesses of Jesus, you call yourselves witnesses of a false name. A name scholars agree is wrong, even the WT agrees, Jehovah is not the correct name of God.

[Is44:6 “This is what the LORD says—ISRAEL’S KING and REDEEMER, the LORD Almighty: I AM THE FIRST and I AM THE LAST; apart from me there is no God. … 7 … 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”] Who is the Son of David, KING of Israel and REDEEMER the ROCK? Jesus Christ the LORD almighty, the first and the last, YAHWEH. (NIV caps added)

By the way you know Arius celebrated mass, took communion, believed man is both immortal soul and body, etc…

Where does the first century Church teach Christ will return invisibly in 1914 or whatever date the WT teaches today? Scripture tell us not to listen to those who say such things as the are false prophets, [Mt24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, HERE IS CHRIST, OR THERE; BELIEVE IT NOT. 24 For there shall arise FALSE CHRISTS, AND FALSE PROPHETS, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.] (KJV caps added) Who goes about teaching great signs and wonders that deceive people into believing Armageddon is not years but weeks away?

Where did the first century Church teach two classes of CHRISTIANS? One saved, the ruling class, who alone can take communion and go to heaven. The other class dead, who can only hope they will be found good enough to live on earth, if they work hard enough, doing what the ruling WT class tells them. Where did the first century Church teach anyone born after 1937 cannot receive communion or go to heaven? By the way who will feed the sheep when all the 144 thousand die. Those born before 1937 are now in there seventies. What happens to the sheep when the 144 thousand class are all dead?

 

[jlhargus]

St Theophilus of Antioch 181 AD : … "This is what the HOly Scriptures teach us, as do all the inspired men, one of whom, John, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and showing that at first GOD was alone, and the Word was in Him. Then he says, “And the Word was GOD; all things were made through Him, w/out HIm was made nothing.” Thw Word, then being GOD and being generated from GOD, is sent to any place at the will of the Father of the universe…”
Thoephilus in the above paragraph from this quote also states “the Word which always exists internally in the Heart of GOD.”

So far Theophilus sounds like what the Catholic Church still teaches today, unlike JW’s theology which states GOD created Michael and then Michael created every thing else.

St Just Martyr WOW i have his writings here with me at work. yes i brought my book of the Early 1st century Christians and WOW Justin is so on key with Catholic Theology, Showing. WOW the more i read his writings and the writings of the first Century Christians it makes me so proud and praise GOD that i’m Catholic for the teachings are still what we teach!! i suggest you do a little more in depth studying of St Justin Martyr who call Jesus GOD

Good find Cides. It’s to bad Dan can’t read the fathers on his own even on line. He can only read what the WT wants him to see on any religious subject.

 

[NotWorthy]

JL: That is the WT’s erroneous interpretation, prove it. Show me where the Church or assembly was ever called Jehovah’s Witnesses anywhere in the NT? Show me where any of the apostles ever said we are to be witnesses of Jehovah? Christ said we are to be HIS witnesses.

Well, considering that “Jehovah” is a misnomer of the Hebrew word for God, “YHWH”, and that YHWH wasn’t mis-interpreted as “Jehovah” til the 15th century (give or take a century or two), your challenge maybe be extremely hard to refute!

 

[dj_dave]

By Jesus being referred to as the Son of GOD it is saying he is of the same nature same essance.

Then do you believe you will become the same “nature” and essance?

The apostle Peter speaks to his fellow Christians, spiritual brothers of Jesus Christ, of “the precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become sharers in divine nature [phy′se·os].” (2Pe 1:4) That this is a sharing with Christ in his glory as spirit persons, Peter shows in his first letter: “God … gave us a new birth [a·na·gen·ne′sas he·mas′, “having generated us again”] to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.” (1Pe 1:3,4) “Divine nature” requires a change in nature through death and resurrection, as made plain by the apostle Paul at First Corinthians chapter 15. He explains that the Christian must die and must be resurrected in a different body, a spiritual one, which requires a change.—1Co 15:36, 38, 44, 49,*51.

(1 John 3:2) .Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.

Jesus also said, destroy this temple and I will raise it up again… also, I have the **power **to lay down my life and raise it up again…

Actually he said he has the

Original Word: ἐξουσία
Transliteration: exousia
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-oo-see’-ah)
Short Definition: authority to raise it again. Why because he knew his sinless life would be rewarded if he died faithful

So Jesus also raise himself… But remember Jesus is not the Father so if the Father raise Christ from the dead there is no contradiction with the true Christian teaching on the Trinity… of One GOD 3 Divine person.
James 2:19 say thou believes there is one GOD… not GOD is one… and well Amen we believe there is ONE GOD not 3 GODS…

very clever–wrong–…but, clever. Wait a minute! If Jesus is not the Father, why did he say “you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father”?

ALSO there is this:

If we think that Jesus Christ believed and taught that he was equal to God, something is rather puzzling: Why do we not read in the “New Testament” about the effects that would necessarily have resulted from such a teaching? What effects?
First, trinitarians might well benefit in considering how such a teaching would have affected Jesus’ disciples. In the beginning, they must have considered Jesus to be a mere man. (Compare Mark 6:3.) Then, at some point, Jesus supposedly revealed to them that he was God himself. How would they have reacted? How would you react if you suddenly found yourself standing next to God?

Considering such a prospect, Andrews Norton, a professor at Harvard Divinity School in the 19th century, exclaimed: “With what unspeakable astonishment should we be overwhelmed!” And if a person really learned that he had been in the physical presence of God, "how continually would it be expressed in the most forcible language, whenever we had occasion to speak of him!

But, in all honesty, as you read through the Gospels do you see this astonished reaction in Jesus’ disciples? ‘That is why the truth of it was gradually revealed to them by Jesus,’ a trinitarian may say. Why, then, is there no trace of such astonishment even in the letters of the “New Testament,” which were written years after Jesus’ death and resurrection? Puzzling

Besides this, there are other consequences that would necessarily have resulted had Jesus taught that he was God. For the Jews, who believed that "the LORD . . . is one LORD, it would have been blasphemous to suggest that Christ was equal to God as the second person of the Trinity. (Deuteronomy 6:4) This raises two questions.

(1) Why do we not find the writers of the “New Testament” explaining, clarifying, illustrating and defending this unbelievable doctrine over and over again for the benefit of believing Jews? No teaching would have required more explanation!

(2) And why do we not find unbelieving Jews, who bitterly and passionately opposed Christianity, attacking the doctrine that to them would have been abhorrent? No doctrine would have been surrounded by more controversy!

Thus, Professor Norton observed:
“It appears, then, that while other questions of far less difficulty (for instance, the circumcision of the Gentile converts) were subjects of such doubt and controversy that even the authority of the Apostles was barely sufficient to establish the truth, this doctrine [the Trinity], so extraordinary, so obnoxious, and so hard to be understood, was introduced in silence, and received without hesitation, dislike, opposition, or misapprehension.”

So why was there no clarifying by the “New Testament” writers? No attacks by Jewish opposers? Because neither Jesus nor his apostles taught what is commonly believed in Christendom—the Trinity.

 

[cides23]

Then do you believe you will become the same “nature” and essance?

The apostle Peter speaks to his fellow Christians, spiritual brothers of Jesus Christ, of “the precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become sharers in divine nature [phy′se·os].” (2Pe 1:4) That this is a sharing with Christ in his glory as spirit persons, Peter shows in his first letter: “God … gave us a new birth [a·na·gen·ne′sas he·mas′, “having generated us again”] to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.” (1Pe 1:3,4) “Divine nature” requires a change in nature through death and resurrection, as made plain by the apostle Paul at First Corinthians chapter 15. He explains that the Christian must die and must be resurrected in a different body, a spiritual one, which requires a change.—1Co 15:36, 38, 44, 49,*51.

(1 John 3:2) .Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.

Actually he said he has the

Original Word: ἐξουσία
Transliteration: exousia
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-oo-see’-ah)
Short Definition: authority to raise it again. Why because he knew his sinless life would be rewarded if he died faithful

very clever–wrong–…but, clever. Wait a minute! If Jesus is not the Father, why did he say “you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father”?

ALSO there is this:

If we think that Jesus Christ believed and taught that he was equal to God, something is rather puzzling: Why do we not read in the “New Testament” about the effects that would necessarily have resulted from such a teaching? What effects?
First, trinitarians might well benefit in considering how such a teaching would have affected Jesus’ disciples. In the beginning, they must have considered Jesus to be a mere man. (Compare Mark 6:3.) Then, at some point, Jesus supposedly revealed to them that he was God himself. How would they have reacted? How would you react if you suddenly found yourself standing next to God?

Considering such a prospect, Andrews Norton, a professor at Harvard Divinity School in the 19th century, exclaimed: “With what unspeakable astonishment should we be overwhelmed!” And if a person really learned that he had been in the physical presence of God, "how continually would it be expressed in the most forcible language, whenever we had occasion to speak of him!

But, in all honesty, as you read through the Gospels do you see this astonished reaction in Jesus’ disciples? ‘That is why the truth of it was gradually revealed to them by Jesus,’ a trinitarian may say. Why, then, is there no trace of such astonishment even in the letters of the “New Testament,” which were written years after Jesus’ death and resurrection? Puzzling

Besides this, there are other consequences that would necessarily have resulted had Jesus taught that he was God. For the Jews, who believed that "the LORD . . . is one LORD, it would have been blasphemous to suggest that Christ was equal to God as the second person of the Trinity. (Deuteronomy 6:4) This raises two questions.

(1) Why do we not find the writers of the “New Testament” explaining, clarifying, illustrating and defending this unbelievable doctrine over and over again for the benefit of believing Jews? No teaching would have required more explanation!

(2) And why do we not find unbelieving Jews, who bitterly and passionately opposed Christianity, attacking the doctrine that to them would have been abhorrent? No doctrine would have been surrounded by more controversy!

Thus, Professor Norton observed:
“It appears, then, that while other questions of far less difficulty (for instance, the circumcision of the Gentile converts) were subjects of such doubt and controversy that even the authority of the Apostles was barely sufficient to establish the truth, this doctrine [the Trinity], so extraordinary, so obnoxious, and so hard to be understood, was introduced in silence, and received without hesitation, dislike, opposition, or misapprehension.”

So why was there no clarifying by the “New Testament” writers? No attacks by Jewish opposers? Because neither Jesus nor his apostles taught what is commonly believed in Christendom—the Trinity.

an officer a cop has the authority to give out tickets that means he has the power to give out tickets… same thing, power and authority… The Father gives life and Jesus said he also gives life. Like in Genesis GOD said let their be light and their was light, the WORD that comes forth has the power to make what GOD says, and this WORD is Jesus for he is the WOrd OF GOD and so the power of GOD… Who created all, OT says GOD, NT say Jesus, why same one GOD 3 divine persons.

Why get quotes from professors (either secular professors or professors who are so called teachers in schools) why not just stick with the bible and what the 1 century Christians taught who were and are guided by the Holy Spirit…

DAN[2) And why do we not find unbelieving Jews, who bitterly and passionately opposed Christianity, attacking the doctrine that to them would have been abhorrent? No doctrine would have been surrounded by more controversy! ] LOL why do you think they would pick up stones to stone Jesus? John 8:58 Jesus refers to himself as YWHW I AM… In Gospel of John Jesus refers GOD as his Father and they said you a man make yourself GOD, why cause he called GOD his father… Jesus was put to death by the Jews not cause he was claiming to be an angel or the messenger from GOD but he was claiming to be GOD. The 1st Century Christians were getting killed and martyred for believing in this…

 

[cides23]

Then do you believe you will become the same “nature” and essance?

very clever–wrong–…but, clever. Wait a minute! If Jesus is not the Father, why did he say “you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father”?

ALSO there is this:

If we think that Jesus Christ believed and taught that he was equal to God, something is rather puzzling: Why do we not read in the “New Testament” about the effects that would necessarily have resulted from such a teaching? What effects?
First, trinitarians might well benefit in considering how such a teaching would have affected Jesus’ disciples. In the beginning, they must have considered Jesus to be a mere man. (Compare Mark 6:3.) Then, at some point, Jesus supposedly revealed to them that he was God himself. How would they have reacted? How would you react if you suddenly found yourself standing next to God?

Considering such a prospect, Andrews Norton, a professor at Harvard Divinity School in the 19th century, exclaimed: “With what unspeakable astonishment should we be overwhelmed!” And if a person really learned that he had been in the physical presence of God, "how continually would it be expressed in the most forcible language, whenever we had occasion to speak of him!

But, in all honesty, as you read through the Gospels do you see this astonished reaction in Jesus’ disciples? ‘That is why the truth of it was gradually revealed to them by Jesus,’ a trinitarian may say. Why, then, is there no trace of such astonishment even in the letters of the “New Testament,” which were written years after Jesus’ death and resurrection? Puzzling

Besides this, there are other consequences that would necessarily have resulted had Jesus taught that he was God. For the Jews, who believed that "the LORD . . . is one LORD, it would have been blasphemous to suggest that Christ was equal to God as the second person of the Trinity. (Deuteronomy 6:4) This raises two questions.

(1) Why do we not find the writers of the “New Testament” explaining, clarifying, illustrating and defending this unbelievable doctrine over and over again for the benefit of believing Jews? No teaching would have required more explanation!

(2) And why do we not find unbelieving Jews, who bitterly and passionately opposed Christianity, attacking the doctrine that to them would have been abhorrent? No doctrine would have been surrounded by more controversy!

Thus, Professor Norton observed:
“It appears, then, that while other questions of far less difficulty (for instance, the circumcision of the Gentile converts) were subjects of such doubt and controversy that even the authority of the Apostles was barely sufficient to establish the truth, this doctrine [the Trinity], so extraordinary, so obnoxious, and so hard to be understood, was introduced in silence, and received without hesitation, dislike, opposition, or misapprehension.”

So why was there no clarifying by the “New Testament” writers? No attacks by Jewish opposers? Because neither Jesus nor his apostles taught what is commonly believed in Christendom—the Trinity.

Puzzling??? Jesus said I and the Father are one, I am in the Father and the Father in me… NWT reads union (wrong) - - John 5:18 [18] This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.

How would i react if GOD was next to me? like Thomas reacted “My Lord and My GOD!”
Like Elizabeth reacted when Mary visited her while pregnant with Christ, “how is this that the mother of my Lord shall come to me”

Like Peter “depart from me Lord for I am a sinner.”

Like Mary, using my tears to clean his feet!!

Like John the beloved disciples, resing my head on his chest!!!

I guess beause of your lack of faith in who is Christ, this question was raised… the truth when one reads that question it is sad, no for real I really man a sadness with sympathy because that is the greatest Joy one can have to be near to the GOD that loves us so much!!! is not this all desires, I long for the fountain of living water to see your face Psalm 42.

Why is seeing Jesus is seeing the Father, because of the same essence all that Jesus does the Father does, he’s the Father WORD before time he was in the Father and Jesus say I am in the Father and the Father in me.
That would make no sence if Jesus was Michael the arc angel.

 

[jlhargus]

Wait a minute! If Jesus is not the Father, why did he say “you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father”?

JL: To see God is to see Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit. God is ONE AND indivisible, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God is ONE BEING not three, to see ONE PERSON is to see the ONE BEING, GOD.

ALSO there is this:

If we think that Jesus Christ believed and taught that he was equal to God, something is rather puzzling: Why do we not read in the “New Testament” about the effects that would necessarily have resulted from such a teaching? What effects?

JL: Jn5:18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.

First, trinitarians might well benefit in considering how such a teaching would have affected Jesus’ disciples. In the beginning, they must have considered Jesus to be a mere man. (Compare Mark 6:3.) Then, at some point, Jesus supposedly revealed to them that he was God himself. How would they have reacted? How would you react if you suddenly found yourself standing next to God?

JL: First can you explain the point for the WT referencing Mark 6:3, what does it have to do with no Trinity or the Word not being God? [Mk6:3 “Where did this man get these things?” they asked. “WHAT’S THIS WISDOM THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN HIM, THAT HE EVEN DOES MIRACLES! 3 Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.] (NIV caps added). I would say it is more in support of the Trinity and the Word as God. Maybe the WT just added it , as they add to the NT, so JW’s would just assume it has some relevant meaning, you obviously did’nt read it. I really would like for you to explain the point of using Mark6:3, if you can.

As far as how they would have reacted or how I would react if I found myself standing next to God. Well I would react with great respect as I do when I receive my Lord and God in holy communion. Now my reaction would be entirly different if I found myself standing next to God in all his Glory. I would never have the nerve to approach and receive him in communion.

That’s why God comes to us under the appearance of bread and wine and as an ordinary man, so we will not overreact and be terrified to be in his presents. God wants a family relationship with us not a slave, master relationship. Our time here is to prepare us to see him as God in all his Glory in eternity. In the book of Revelations John reacted differently to Jesus when he saw him as God in his Glory.

[Rv1:9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I HEARD BEHIND ME A LOUD VOICE LIKE A TRUMPET, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.” 12 I TURNED around TO SEE THE VOICE that was SPEAKING TO ME. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was SOMEONE "LIKE A SON OF MAN,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and HIS VOICE was LIKE THE SOUND OF RUSHING WATERS. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. 17 WHEN I SAW HIM I FELL AT HIS FEET AS THOUGH DEAD. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST. 18 I am THE LIVING ONE; I WAS DEAD, and BEHOLD I AM ALIVE for ever and ever! AND I HOLD THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES.] By the way don’t JW teach Christ holds the keys of death and Hades? (NIV caps and (remarks) added).

 

[jlhargus]

Considering such a prospect, Andrews Norton, a professor at Harvard Divinity School in the 19th century, exclaimed: “With what unspeakable astonishment should we be overwhelmed!” And if a person really learned that he had been in the physical presence of God, "how continually would it be expressed in the most forcible language, whenever we had occasion to speak of him!

But, in all honesty, as you read through the Gospels do you see this astonished reaction in Jesus’ disciples? ‘That is why the truth of it was gradually revealed to them by Jesus,’ a trinitarian may say. Why, then, is there no trace of such astonishment even in the letters of the “New Testament,” which were written years after Jesus’ death and resurrection? Puzzling:rolleyes:

JL: Yes as a Trinitarian I would say, That is why the truth of it was gradually revealed to them by Jesus. If Christ had come to the apostles saying, I am God follow me. They would have dismissed him as a nut case and so would all of us. First they had to believe he was the messiah then know, trust and love him as a person or man.

Remember what Peter said, when Christ asked if they would go away also. [Jn6:67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. 68 Simon Peter answered him, “LORD TO WHOM SHALL WE GO? YOU HAVE THE WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE 69 WE BELIEVE AND KNOW that YOU ARE THE HOLY ONE OF GOD.”], They accepted believing and knowing Christ, not fully understanding, till the Holy Spirit endued them with power at Pentecost.

 

[jlhargus]

Besides this, there are other consequences that would necessarily have resulted had Jesus taught that he was God. For the Jews, who believed that "the LORD . . . is one LORD, it would have been blasphemous to suggest that Christ was equal to God as the second person of the Trinity. (Deuteronomy 6:4) This raises two questions.

(1) Why do we not find the writers of the “New Testament” explaining, clarifying, illustrating and defending this unbelievable doctrine over and over again for the benefit of believing Jews? No teaching would have required more explanation!

(2) And why do we not find unbelieving Jews, who bitterly and passionately opposed Christianity, attacking the doctrine that to them would have been abhorrent? No doctrine would have been surrounded by more controversy!
Thus, Professor Norton observed:

JL: Yes the unbeliving Jews did find it blasphemous that Christ claimed to be equal to God and was going to stone him for claiming that, as the scriptures say, Jn5:18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.

Believing Jews who were converted by the free gift of God, grace, had no problem enlightened by the Holy Spirit. They knew as ALL Christians know, "the LORD . . . is one LORD, always has been and always will be, Father, Son and Holy Spirit ONE GOD world without end.

“It appears, then, that while other questions of far less difficulty (for instance, the circumcision of the Gentile converts) were subjects of such doubt and controversy that even the authority of the Apostles was barely sufficient to establish the truth, this doctrine [the Trinity], so extraordinary, so obnoxious, and so hard to be understood, was introduced in silence, and received without hesitation, dislike, opposition, or misapprehension.”

JL: Nothing could be more extraordinary, so obnoxious and so hard to be understood and defend, as this doctrine [Michael the Archangel is our one mediator]. When scripture clearly tells us it is the MAN Christ Jesus, whom the WT says is out of existence. [1Tm2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus,]

[Acts17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."] Shouldn’t these scriptures read Archangel instead of MAN? I wonder who is right the WT or scripture?

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. … 14 THE WORD BECAME FLESH and made his dwelling AMONG US. We have seen his glory, the glory of the ONE and ONLY, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.]

webuus.com/timeline/Andrews_Norton.html
NORTON, ANDREWS (31 December 1786, Hingham, MA-18 September 1853, Newport, RI). Education: A.B., Harvard College, 1804; A.M., Harvard College, 1809. Career: lecturer and librarian, Harvard College, 1813-19; Dexter professor of Sacred Literature, Harvard College, 1819 30; independent scholar, 1830-53

Andrews Norton was a man destined to play two distinctly different roles in Unitarian history during his career as a biblical scholar and Harvard professor. In his early career he was among the young liberals like Joseph Stevens Buckminster who sought to sweep away Calvinist orthodoxy through a rational interpretation of the Bible, and he authored an important polemical tract against Trinitarianism. ]

As usual the WT has a lot of tedious details there about nothing really, that is not found in Scripture. Where did it come from? A smoke screen from a tradition of men to cover for the fact they have no evidence?

So why was there no clarifying by the “New Testament” writers? No attacks by Jewish opposers? Because neither Jesus nor his apostles taught what is commonly believed in Christendom—the Trinity.

JL: Well you will never know Dj till you read the bible on you own. that’s why the WT doesn’t let JW’s read the scriptures on their own apart from what the WT tells them to read. You will never know Christ, Dj, till you read the scriptures apart from the WT. The WT knows you will learn the truth reading on your own and unwittingly admits it in it’s own publication.

The Bible is a sealed book except to the organization. WT 7/1/1973, p. 402

“… from among the ranks of Jehovah’s people … haughty ones … say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago…” WT 8/15/1981, pp. 28-29 [Index of Watch Tower Errors, David A Reed, editor compiled by Steve Huntoon & John Cornell, Baker Book House Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516]

I am praying for you Dj, Dan and all JW’s.

(NIV used caps added.}

 

[jlhargus]

Then do you believe you will become the same “nature” and essance?

JL: No, we will not be the SAME nature or essance. However, all those who believe, repent and are born again by water and the Spirit, Jn3:5, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Mt28:19, will SHARE HIS DIVINE NATURE or essance, 2Pt14, through baptism by which we RECEIVE the indwelling of the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, alone with the Father and the Son that DIVINE NATURE.

[Jn14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, AND MAKE OUR ABODE WITH HIM.]

[Acts2:37 Now WHEN THEY HEARD this, THEY were pricked in their heart, and SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST.

1Cor6:19 What? know ye not that YOUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY GHOST which is IN YOU, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For YE ARE BOUGHT WITH A PRICE: therefore GLORIFY GOD IN YOUR BODY, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

[2Cor5:17 Therefore IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST, HE IS A NEW CREATURE: OLD THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL THINGS ARE become NEW.

[Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY he SAVED us, BY the WASHING of REGENERATION, and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST; 6 Which he SHED ON US ABUNDANTLY Jesus Christ our Saviour;]

What do you use when you wash? Isn’t it water and a cleaning agent. In baptism we are washed with water thur the cleansing agent of the Holy Spirit, who washes away our sins.

[Acts22:16 And now WHY TARRIEST THOU? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.]

Through baptism our sins are washed away and we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. We are regenerated the old man of flesh has died we are raised a new creation, a spiritual person, living by the indwelling Holy Spirit and not after the flesh.

Rm8:8 So then THEY THAT ARE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD. 9 But YE ARE NOT IN THE FLESH, BUT IN THE SPIRIT, IF so be that THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. Now IF any MAN HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NONE OF HIS. 10 And IF CHRIST BE IN YOU, THE BODY IS DEAD BECAUSE OF SIN; BUT THE SPIRIT IS LIFE because of righteousness. 11 But IF THE SPIRIT OF HIM THAT RAISED UP JESUS from the dead DWELL IN YOU, HE that raised up Christ from the dead SHALL ALSO QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU.

[1Pt1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, THROUGH SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT, UNTO OBEDIENCE AND THE SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which ACCORDING TO HIS abundant MERCY HATH BEGOTTEN US AGAIN unto a lively hope BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,]

[1Pt3:21 The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH also NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST:]

That NEW BIRTH comes by water and the Spirit in baptism, [Jn3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, NO ONE CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM of God UNLESS he is BORN OF water and the Spirit.].

[1Cor6:11 And such were some of you. But YOU WERE WASHED you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the NAME OF the Lord JESUS CHRIST AND in the SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.] Is one washed without water and a cleansing agent?

 

[jlhargus]

The apostle Peter speaks to his fellow Christians, spiritual brothers of Jesus Christ, of “the precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become sharers in divine nature [phy’se·os].” (2Pe 1:4) That this is a sharing with Christ in his glory as spirit persons, Peter shows in his first letter: “God … gave us a new birth [a·na·gen·ne’sas he·mas’, “having generated us again”] to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.”

JL: [2 Pt1:3 According as HIS DIVINE POWER HATH GIVEN UNTO US ALL THINGS THAT PERTAIN UNTO LIFE AND GODLINESS, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are GIVEN UNTO US exceeding GREAT and precious PROMISES: that BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.]

Peter isn’t speaking here of some, so called special heavenly class of 144 thousand spirit people, but he is speaking of all God’s people who believe, repent, are baptized for remission of sins, and receive the Holy Spirit. Thereby sharing in the divine nature or essence by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

All Gods people participate in the divine nature thru baptism. There is no such thing as a first class, of spirit beings, former human, and a second class of earthly human beings. There is only ONE people of God, who are HIS chirdren. All His children have the Spirit of God and wait for the redemption of our same BODIES laid in the grave. Our souls HELD IN HEAVEN waiting to be reunited with our transformed glorified spiritualized bodies at the resurrection.

[Acts2:37 Now WHEN THEY HEARD this, THEY were pricked in their heart, and SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST.

[Hb12:22 But YE ARE COME UNTO mount Sion, and UNTO the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and TO an innumerable company of angels, 23 TO the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and TO God the Judge of all, and TO the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN made perfect,]

[Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, WHEN HE ASCENDED up ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that HE ALSO DESCENDED FIRST INTO THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH?

We see those spirits or souls of just men are now in heaven in Hb12:23. If those captive spirits he took into heaven were not the souls of the OT great cloud of witnesses, who were in Sheol, Abraham’s Bosom, Hb12:1, then did Christ take demons into heaven?

[Rm8:23 And not only they, BUT OURSELVES ALSO, which HAVE THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THE SPIRIT, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, to wit, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.]

[Gal 3:26 For YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]

 

[jlhargus]

(1Pe 1:3,4) “Divine nature” requires a change in nature through death and resurrection, as made plain by the apostle Paul at First Corinthians chapter 15. He explains that the Christian must die and must be resurrected in a different body, a spiritual one, which requires a change.—1Co 15:36, 38, 44, 49,*51.

(1 John 3:2) .Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.

JL: No it has not yet been manifest what we shall be, when he is made manifest we shall be like him, with a transformed earthly body into a glorified immortal heavenly body.

[Eph1:13 In whom YE ALSO TRUSTED, AFTER that YE HEARD the word of truth, THE GOSPEL of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that YE BELIEVED, ye WERE SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT **OF PROMISE, 14 WHICH IS THE EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE UNTIL THE REDEMPTION of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.]

[Rm8:8 and THOSE who are IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD. 9 However, YOU ARE NOT IN THE FLESH but in the Spirit, IF indeed THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU But IF ANYONE DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE DOES NOT BELONG TO HIM.]

So if you do not have the Spirit dwelling in you as the scriptures tell us we must. Then you do not belong to Christ. You either belong to Christ’s flock of sheep or you are a seed of Satan and are a goat. There is only two choices LIFE or DEATH. Only those who have the Spirit of Christ have LIFE all others are goats who are told to depart from Christ in the last judgement.

[Rm8:10 And IF CHRIST BE IN YOU, THE BODY IS DEAD because of sin; BUT THE SPIRIT IS LIFE because of righteousness. 11 But IF THE SPIRIT OF HIM THAT RAISED UP JESUS from the dead DWELL IN YOU, HE that raised up Christ from the dead SHALL ALSO QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU. 12 THEREFORE, BRETHREN, WE ARE DEBTORS, NOT TO THE FLESH, to live after the flesh. 13 FOR IF YE LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YE SHALL DIE: but IF YE THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YE SHALL LIVE. 14 For AS MANY AS ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, they ARE THE SONS OF GO. 15 For YE HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF BONDAGE AGAIN to fear; but YE HAVE RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF ADOPTIION, whereby WE CRY, ABBA FATHER. 16 THE SPIRIT itself BEARETH WITNESS WITH OUR spirit, THAT WE ARE THE CHILDREN OF GOD:]

You have been mistakenly taught those who have the Spirit are not raised bodily, but as spirit beings. Yet scripture, in Rm8:10-16, clearly teaches those who have the Spirit indwelling will be raised Bodily. Those mortal bodies will put on immortality, just as Chisrt’s mortal body was raise a glorified spiritualized body. Christ’s now transformed glorified spiritual body could pass into a locked room and yet his apostles could touch and feel his flesh and bones and see HIS wounds. All those who BELONG TO CHRIST at his coming will share that same kind of transformed glorified resurrected body. We shall be like him because we shall see him just as he is.

 

[dj_dave]

Those mortal bodies will put on immortality, just as Chisrt’s mortal body was raise a glorified spiritualized body.

Christ’s now transformed glorified spiritual body could pass into a locked room and yet his apostles could touch and feel his flesh and bones and see HIS wounds. All those who BELONG TO CHRIST at his coming will share that same kind of transformed glorified resurrected body. We shall be like him because we shall see him just as he is.

…SO you will be like the 3rd person of GOD?

Everyone of these scriptures apply to the 144,000 only
They are the “new Creation” consider our explaination:

*** w93 1/1 pp. 5-6 New Creations Brought Forth! ***
In the year 29 of our Common Era, --. “After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: ‘This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.’” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Thus, the man Christ Jesus was the first of a new creation, anointed to do God’s will. Later, on the basis of his sacrificial death, Jesus became the Mediator of a new covenant between God and a select group of men. Each of these has become “a new creation,” begotten by God’s spirit to a heavenly hope, with the prospect of ruling with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom.—2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 Timothy 2:5, 6; Hebrews 9:15.

Over the centuries, these anointed, spirit-begotten Christians have been gathered into union with Christ as the true Christian congregation, in itself a new creation. God called it out of this world for a purpose, as the apostle Peter states: “You are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” (1 Peter 2:9)

Like Christ Jesus, God’s initial new creation, this subsequent new creation has a primary obligation to preach the good news. (Luke 4:18, 19) Individually, its members, ultimately numbering 144,000, must “put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.” (Ephesians 4:24; Revelation 14:1, 3) This requires that they cultivate “the fruitage of the spirit,” described at Galatians 5:22, 23, and faithfully care for their stewardship.—1 Corinthians 4:2; 9:16.

144,000 “bought” have what is called the “seal of the living God.” Revelation, chapter 7, which deals with both the 144,000 spiritual Israelites and the “great crowd,” shows that only the 144,000 are marked “in their foreheads” with that “seal” as being “the slaves of our God.”

None of the “great crowd” are reported as being sealed with that “seal of the living God,” only the 144,000 “slaves of our God.”

(First-century Christians are spoken of as being “sealed” by means of holy spirit, which is an advance token of their heavenly inheritance. (Eph 1:13,14; 4:30) The seal signifies their being God’s possession (2Co 1:21,22) and shows that they are truly in line for heavenly life. AGAIN, the book of Revelation shows the number finally sealed to be only144,000.—Re 7:2-4; 9:4.)

As for your comment:

[SIGN][Rm8:8 and THOSE who are IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD. 9 However, YOU ARE NOT IN THE FLESH but in the Spirit, IF indeed THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU But IF ANYONE DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE DOES NOT BELONG TO HIM.] [/SIGN]

Paul is talking about "fleshly tendencies’ Just as he spoke about at Galatians 5:16 “Keep walking by spirit and you will carry out no fleshly desire at all.” If we let God’s spirit guide us, we will not be overcome by improper fleshly desires.—Romans 8:2-10.

he explained: “Those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires. If we are living by spirit, let us go on walking orderly also by spirit.” (Galatians 5:19-21, 24,25) What qualities does God’s spirit produce in those who live and walk by spirit? “The fruitage of the spirit,” wrote Paul, “is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22,23)

Now the other part of your comment:

[SIGN]Christ’s now transformed glorified spiritual body could pass into a locked room and yet his apostles could touch and feel his flesh and bones and see HIS wounds. [/SIGN]

Why would John make a point to say “a locked door”? How can bone go through a "Locked Door?
Also, a spiritual glorified body has wounds?..What if a person was burned to death at the stake…will he be resurrected with burn scars??

DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus is in Heaven with a body of “flesh and bone”?

And then there is this, …Continued

 

[dj_dave]

Now the other part of your comment:

[SIGN]Christ’s now transformed glorified spiritual body could pass into a locked room and yet his apostles could touch and feel his flesh and bones and see HIS wounds. [/SIGN]

Why would John make a point to say “a locked door”? How can bone go through a "Locked Door?
Also, a spiritual glorified body has wounds?..What if a person was burned to death at the stake…will he be resurrected with burn scars??

DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus is in Heaven with a body of “flesh and bone”?

And then there is this, …Continued

[/SIGN]

(1 Peter 3:18) ...Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.

On some occasions the disciples did not know or recognize the resurrected Jesus. (Matt. 28:16, 17; Luke 24:15, 16; John 20:14-16; 21:4-12) The explanation for this is given in the words found in the Latin Vulgate, the Roman Catholic Douay Version, the German Luther Bible and the Authorized (King James) Version, in Mark 16:12. This verse in the Douay Version reads: “And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.”

The Greek word there translated “shape” is morphé, which the Greek-English Lexicon says means “form, shape, fashion, appearance.” But even apart from what Mark 16:12 says, a careful study of the resurrection appearances makes it clear to the honest investigator, who does not need to be a Sherlock Holmes of a detective, that the resurrected Jesus materialized different bodies to suit the occasion.

On at least two occasions he materialized bodies that resembled the one in which he had been nailed to the stake. (Luke 24:38-40; John 20:20-27) Is it On other occasions the form or shape that he materialized left the disciples in doubt for a while.

Think about this…

Jesus certainly had to materialize clothing in which to appear, for the clothes he had on before he was impaled were divided among the soldiers and they cast lots over his seamless inner garment; and the bandages in which his corpse had been wrapped and the cloth that had been upon his head were left in the sepulcher. (John 19:23, 24; 20:5-7) If the resurrected Jesus could materialize new clothing, could he not also materialize new suitable bodies in order to appear and then dematerialize instead of spiritualize them? Yes!

“*A little longer and the world will behold me no more.” (John 14:19) The “world” refers to humankind. So Jesus here plainly said that people on earth would not see him again after his ascension to heaven. The apostle Paul wrote: “Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”—2Corinthians 5:16

My conclusion–.In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes. He appeared, or seemed to be, fully human, able to eat and drink, just as did the angels that Abraham once entertained.—Genesis 18:8; Hebrews 13:2.

While Jesus appeared to Thomas in a body similar to the one in which He was put to death, He also took on different bodies when appearing to His followers. Thus Mary Magdalene at first thought that Jesus was a gardener. At other times his disciples did not at first recognize him. In these instances it was not his personal appearance that served to identify him, but it was some word or action that they recognized.—READ John 20:14-16; 21:6,7; Luke 24:30,31…notice the “word” or “Actions”

 

[jlhargus]

…SO you will be like the 3rd person of GOD?

JL: Those are your words not mine. The NATURE of Man is BOTH body AND soul as our Lord tells us in Mt10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. One is NOT a human being without BOTH body and soul. When the body dies the soul is a disembodied spirit, wating for the reurrection of it’s body to once again be complete as a human being. The man Jesus Christ our mediator, is a man because he has the same body AND soul, which he was born with.

. Everyone of these scriptures apply to the 144,000 only

JL: [Rm8:10 And IF CHRIST BE IN YOU, THE BODY IS DEAD because of sin; BUT THE SPIRIT IS LIFE because of righteousness. 11 But IF THE SPIRIT OF HIM THAT RAISED UP JESUS from the dead DWELL IN YOU, HE that raised up Christ from the dead SHALL ALSO QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU.]

If the Spirit dwell in you God shall also give life or make alive your mortal bodies, by his Spirit in you. Doesn’t the WT teach the 144,000 will be spirit beings, like the angels, no body, so they can live in heaven. Yet Rms8:11 says God will make alive your mortal bodies. How could Rms8:10-11 apply to the 144,000 spirit beings, who will no longer have a human body or be human beings? Yet we see Christ in heaven as a human being and our mediator, 1Tm2:5.

I know the WT teaches you that most of the bible does not apply to anyone but the 144,000. They teach the 144,000 alone are in the new covenant and belong to the body of Christ. And that number was completed in 1935. Yet there is no evidence for this. Can you give me a scripture for 1935 being the cut off for salvation?

You post. “these scriptures apply to the 144,000 only.”. Then you should have no difficulty using scripture or historic evidence showing that is the case. Show me by posting those actual scriptures as evidence for this. Anyone can make a statement, it is another thing to show evidence. Peter tells the crowd in Acts2:38, to be baptized and RECEIVE the Holy Spirit, are only 144,000 thousand baptized by the WT?

Paul also tells us in [Acts19:2 He said unto them, HAVE YE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED? And THEY SAID unto him, WE HAVE NOT so much as HEARD whether THERE BE ANY HOLY GHOST. 3 And he said unto them, UNTO WHAT then WERE YE BAPTIZED? And they said, Unto JOHN’S BAPTISM.]. Paul evidently thought the Holy Spirit was received by Christian baptism. Otherwise why would he mention baptism, after asking if they received the Holy Spirit?

They are the “new Creation” consider our explaination:

*** w93 1/1 pp. 5-6 New Creations Brought Forth! ***
In the year 29 of our Common Era, --. “After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: ‘This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.’” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Thus, the man Christ Jesus was the first of a new creation, anointed to do God’s will. Later, on the basis of his sacrificial death, Jesus became the Mediator of a new covenant between God and a select group of men.

JL: I see you quote the WT 1993 for your answer. I know you believe there is evidence here for your position. Yet there is absolutely NO evidence here for the WT claim of A SELECT GROUP of 144,000 spirit beings. A select group, of spirit beings, is purly a tradition of men there is NO scriptural evidence for such a group. There is evidence of a 144,000 group of Israelites.

Mt3:16-17 says nothing about a select group, it speaks of Jesus’ baptism. The same happens to ALL who repent are baptized for remission of sins to receive the Holy Spirit. When the repentant comes OUT of the waters of baptism he is a new creation the old man has died to the flesh and the new man lives by the Spirit IN HIM. Again are only 144,000 baptized?

[Acts2:38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and **BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST.]

Also notice Peter goes on [Acts2:39 For **THE PROMISE IS UNTO YOU, AND TO YOUR CHILDREN, AND TO ALL that are AFAR OFF, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.]

The PROMISE is for YOU and YOUR CHILDREN. The PROMISE is the Holy Spirit who INDWELLS ALL. All those that turn to Christ and REPENT, are BAPTIZED for REMISSION of sins, to RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. So is the promise only for 144,000 and their children only?

[Eph1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 IN WHOM YE ALSO TRUSTED, AFTER that YE HEARD the word of truth, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION: in whom also AFTER that YE BELIEVED, ye WERE SEALED WITH THAT **HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE,] Paul in Eph1:12-13 tells us the very same thing as Peter tells us in Act2:38-39.

[Ezek36:25 THEN WILL I SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, and YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A NEW HEART also will I GIVE YOU, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.] This prophecy is fulfilled in Christian baptism and Confirmation.

CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

Each of these has become “a new creation,” begotten by God’s spirit to a heavenly hope, with the prospect of ruling with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom.—2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 Timothy 2:5, 6; Hebrews 9:15.

JL: Yes when God’s people come out of the waters of baptism each is a NEW CREATION with the INDWELLING Holy Spirit. [2Cor5:17 Therefore IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.]. [Gal 3:26 For YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.] For a third time are only the 144,000 baptized by the WT.

How do we die with Christ? How are we crucified with Christ? How are we united to Christ. How do we live and new life? How are we complete in Christ? How are we circumcised of the heart? How are we buried with him? How are we risen with him? BAPTISM.

Rms 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? 4 We were therefore BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM INTO DEATH IN ORDER that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, WE TOO MAY LIVE A NEW LIFE. 5 IF we have been UNITED WITH HIM like this in his death, we will certainly also be UNITED WITH HIM in his resurrection. 6 For we know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

[Col2:10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 IN WHOM also YE ARE CIRCUMCISED with the CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in PUTTING OFF THE BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST 12 BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM, wherein ALSO ye are RISEN WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.]

[Phil3:3 For WE ARE THE CIRCUMCISION, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.] [MK16:16 He that BELIEVETH and is BAPTIZED shall be SAVED but he that believeth not shall be damned.]

[1Jn 1:12 But to ALL WHO RECEIVED HIM who BELIEVED in his name HE GAVE POWER TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD 13 who were BORN not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but OF GOD] [Jn3:5 Jesus answered…UNLESS one is BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT he CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM of God.]

[1Cor 12:13 BY ONE SPIRIT we were ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY Jews or Greeks slaves or free all were MADE TO DRINK OF ONE SPIRIT] [Eph 4:4 There is ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in ONE HOPE of your calling; 5 ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, 6 ONE GOD and Father of all, who is ABOVE ALL, and THROUGH ALL, and **IN YOU ALL.

Over the centuries, these anointed, spirit-begotten Christians have been gathered into union with Christ as the true Christian congregation, in itself a new creation. God called it out of this world for a purpose, as the apostle Peter states: “You are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” (1 Peter 2:9)

JL: Again show me evidence there are only 144,000, spirit-begotten. There is absolutely no evidence in your post and NONE in scripture or history. We can all make empty statements, it’s another thing to produce the evidence.

Like Christ Jesus, God’s initial new creation, this subsequent new creation has a primary obligation to preach the good news. (Luke 4:18, 19)

JL: [Lk4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.] Where does Lk4 say or even remotely imply there will only be 144,000 anointed preachers?

The 144,000 is not a literal number. In the literal sense the 144,000 would all be chaste men as they did not defile themselves with women. I could make a better case for the 144,000 being Catholic priests, than some so called spirit beings. Priests who have attained sainthood through the ages. After all, they are celibate men, who are sealed by the gift of the Holy Spirit for service, by ordination. [Rv14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 THESE are those who DID NOT DEFILE THEMSELVES WITH WOMEN, for THEY KEPT THEMSELVES PURE.]

The 144,000, has the meaning of completion and represents the remnant of the Jews who will be saved. Which will be a great number of itself, not just a literal 144,000. [Rm9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, a remnant shall be saved:]

Whereas the great multitude represents the saved Gentiles whose number cannot be counted. [Rv7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;]

[Rm24:28 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.] Abraham’s spiritual children, just like Issac his natural son, are born by the action of the Holy Spirit. CONTINUED: